Conscious apocalypse: outliving our ruling institutions

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a little example of the rising new counsciousness. Laughing at the insanity of "normal"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-VKUI71uG3U

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

-philosophizing-with-nasruddin-hodja.and rumi [sufi poet] literary tricks are part of the study, too.

more parables, stories, simple wisdom

Raja Krishna Chandra once expressed the opinion that scholars were the cleverest men in his kingdom. Gopal, the Jester, immediately disagreed. He said that businessmen were cleverer � and offered to prove it.
A few days later Gopal called a scholar to the palace. Gopal told him that the king wanted his moustache and asked him to name his price. The scholar, overjoyed, asked for 20 gold coins and when he was paid the amount, allowed a barber to shave his upper lip clean.
Next, a business-man was sent for. When he came and was told that the king wanted his moustache a pained look came on the man�s face. He claimed that it was because of his moustache that he commanded respect in society and that if he shaved it off his business would suffer. He asked for 20,000 gold coins for it. Gopal gave him the money and sent for the barber. But when the barber approached him, the businessman pushed him away.
�The moustache now belongs to the king!� he growled. �I won�t let anyone touch it!� And with that he turned around and walked out of the palace.
Raja Krishna Chandra who had been listening from behind a screen had to admit that in some matters at least, businessmen were cleverer

I mentioned earlier the different types of writers there might be. The chronicler, the messenger, the entertainer, and another came to mind. In the US in the 18th century Samuel Johnson compiled a dictionary of the english language. Noah Webster did as well and Mirriam carries on the tradition. So a writer can be an interpreter. Sometimes the chronicler is the messenger. The entertainer provides job security for the interpreter as he introduces new terms that are added to the dictionary. [we all know of the stenographer, he purports to be a messenger, but the messages are really repackaged lies] A journalist is a chronicler that is also a messenger [Hedges, Mark Danner].Twain and Swift were entertainers that were messengers.

A side note: what is a good-life/? is the Harvard/Grant study of families over successive generations. Grant was the patriarch of Grant 5 & 10 cent stores. Harvard commisioned it. An interesting outcome was that the three middleclass women whose families had been in the US for generations reflected the negative impact of social bigotry. Whether they received it, initiated it, or administered it, I don't know. Remember the 'nail ladies' comments ,or "We're VIPs" at a Hampton gathering requiring a wait for parking attendants?

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

How wonderful to see your thoughts, again, bamboo!

Just when Lewis Lapham asks -- "Why No Mark Twain for Our Second Gilded Age?" You offer us some laughter at our silly notions of normalcy.

"Well, humor is the great thing, the saving thing, after all." -- Mark Twain

You are one of the voices of consciousness we need to wake us through the archetypes of apocalypse. I'm looking forward to reading more of your insights.

Don't forget, include those prophetic writers in your panoply scribes, doug. The seers. Like bamboo's reference to Carlos Castenada, the reassemblers of symbol and metaphor. Not quite as droll as messengers. More like crazed distubing, wild-eyed churning. But like the messenger, not always the most welcome figures on stage.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

"Dear Writer,If your fingers are tired of so much typing on air, and the sun’s in your blood but not in your hair, and good weather is just an exception, and deep down so were you before all the prescriptions…

If you’ve lost count of seasons, and cuss out global warming for Decembers in May, for all the reading you still haven’t done, in the last thousand years oflonely words on your back; and all the dishes of the world—melting down in your sink, and babies that haven’t been born—always crying, the cat missing for days, the bills still unpaid, ’cause you’re not in it for the money, are you?

If you don’t even have time to change the music on your old MP3, but it’s okay ’cause this is how you got to memorize Beethoven and now you catch yourself humming it when no one’s around to misunderstand, and you remember that Beethoven was deaf—just like you on most days, while the genie is stuck in a bottle in Bali—at a genies’ retreat. Who needs them anyway, you can’t trust creatures with half their body missing…

And if you’re trapped in someone else’s wrinkles and wondering if there’s been a misunderstanding, cause the last time you checked you were only 19, and you’ve been stuck on the highway of time all these years, paying your toll in dream currency, trying to put into words why people in ads are always so goddamn happy about eating yogurt…

That writer, saturnine You, with dark ‘n’ bright circles round your eyes from so many late-night walks on the moon, and scissors instead of fingers, and clumsy metaphors instead of gloves, on days like today only screaming comes easy, but you’ve been colonized and it’s hard to be wild in the concrete jungle, so put your shirt back on, maybe go for a walk?

Meanwhile, in your veins, not even tree sap. And deep down you wish that all wishes came with the right degree of amnesia because we first need to forget the impossible in order to attempt it."

http://www.rebellesociety.com/2013/05/20/the-writers-manifesto/?fb_action_ids=10202373109830594&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582


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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

A conscious apocalypse:

Quote Jeanette LeBlanc on Dec 2, 2013:

.....

No mistake, this is the phoenix fire part. The burning down to ashes part. The preparing to rise again. This is a space without anchor, without moorings. Even the north star may be obscured by clouds. But your compass lies within. Your soul knows your truth north. Can find it without map or directions. You need only trust yourself enough to listen to the whispers of your valiant soul.

Lay your head in my lap, love. Tell me your stories. The ones that have formed you into the gift that you are. Now take a breath and let it go. Let it all go. Let the sea breeze carry it away. Let your tears fall. You will be held now. You will be carried. You can stop running. You can cease the endless motion and constant struggle. You can rest now. You are safe.

And maybe, just maybe, now you can be still.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

Ah yes, a perfect passage and so poignant at this moment in a personal/global/cultural way.

I just got back from wandering through Croatia. Untethered like never before. i've developed an addiction to stepping off cliffs into the unknown, following Heart/intuition. Not only do new doors open but some old doors have a way of slaming closed, locked. its nice to return here and see all the good work Thoms members are still engaged in. new perspectives for me. New directions and closer to determining how to expose more to the evolutionary shift humanity finds itself in the midst of.

I wanted to match you up with some of the writers at rebellesociety. I dont know, perhaps you already knew of them.

Im out the door with my camera. too nice today to be poking out words on these keys.

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote .ren:

How wonderful to see your thoughts, again, bamboo!

Just when Lewis Lapham asks -- "Why No Mark Twain for Our Second Gilded Age?" You offer us some laughter at our silly notions of normalcy.

"Well, humor is the great thing, the saving thing, after all." -- Mark Twain

You are one of the voices of consciousness we need to wake us through the archetypes of apocalypse. I'm looking forward to reading more of your insights.

Don't forget, include those prophetic writers in your panoply scribes, doug. The seers. Like bamboo's reference to Carlos Castenada, the reassemblers of symbol and metaphor. Not quite as droll as messengers. More like crazed distubing, wild-eyed churning. But like the messenger, not always the most welcome figures on stage.

I had written earlier on this board of the literary character under Franco and what the authors wrote, how they wrote. A few were assasinated. How did intellectuals [those that weren't purged] communicate, or express themselves. Magic was a theme in many stories [maybe fantasy, too] and pen names, whether it was modernism disguised or some creative safe way to bypass the censors I don't know. I lost the thread where I posted it, but it might turn up.

/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature with their nationalities and conflicts roaring during the times they were recognized for achievement. Some were prophetic. Orwell, not awarded but almost prescient if not prophetic.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Thanks bamboo. Really appreciate the hookup. No I didn't know them, but I can see those I've read so far are on a similar wave length. I guess there may be infinite wave lengths in the universe so that's maybe not so common as one might think.

Croatia. One whole side of my family tree is rooted there. My grandfather had to flee from his village after WWI. He was marked for elimination by the Serbs for reasons that were never fully disclosed to me. Something to do with politics, I'm sure.

Here's something I wrote not long after I finished at MooU:

The Fog Boat

I finished my fog boat today. The heavier the fog the higher it goes.

Until it was finished I was trapped on the foggy bottom.

I'd bump into earthly dimensions.

But now... Such joy.. such fright…anticipation.

I’m rowing into an unknown murk, no ups, no downs

—-no anchor—-

Looking hard rather than hardly, can’t see a thing 'til it’s here.

My eyes ache.

Suddenly a hazy form,

the mist thins,

I draw near until…

the whole of it becomes crystal clear: shocking; stabbing…

Ren H________ March 9, 1977

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

I wasn't going to name names, because I don't think the individual writers are the issue. But I consider Orwell prophetic. He could see through to the underlying forms of the present that will carry through and transform into a future.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

A few recent novels are analytical by positing changes in the historical record. One was what if Charles Lindbergh had been elected, another was JFK's second term. They are also somewhat of a message in bringing ignored minutae to significance, through unexpected though plausible promotions of things, people, and events. What minutae are we ignoring, and to what affect?

The recent shutdown was just an idiotic stunt, but the CDC could not respond to a salmonella outbreak, or polio, or typhus [can't remember]. Had it rained in Dallas in '63, the top would've gone up over JFK's limo.

Laws passed in the past were for a reason and they worked to great satisfaction more the majority of the country. Reagan ditched Fairness Doctrine, and the individual state's constitutional ban on securitizing mortgages. Clinton ditched Glass Steagel, W ditched assault weapons ban. All the repeals were for a very small minority, or special interest, f#ck the 95%. Voting rights act and McCain Feingold, repealed-scotus. Civil award against Exxon Valdeze, repealed- scotus. Montana's election law against robber barons, repealed by SCOTUS. 4th Amendment? suspended-scotus/reagan

Our current history if included in a book today would seem fiction if that book got transported to 1999. I am still pinching myself and trying to ignore it or forget it.

A mathematical model could identify the next law or amendment to be struct down The algorythm with all the variables entered 1)interest behind the repeal aka who wins or makes a killing 2)the money already accumulating 3) next mass shooting, or natural disaster 4) global power sway, trade deals or security [both financial and population].

Now applying the model and purchasing the proper put options on the sectors and vendors that will go bankrupt, and proper call options on the white knight sectors and vendors needed [hint, the ones causing the disaster capitalism or Munchhausen syndrom by proxy]

Does that all sound like an outline for a graphic novel? It's just my mental doodling, but it reflects my cynicism when a skeptic filter or governor on my mind gets loose.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote douglaslee:

Does that all sound like an outline for a graphic novel? It's just my mental doodling, but it reflects my cynicism when a skeptic filter or governor on my mind gets loose.

Full throtle it brother! I'll be looking for that novel. The world is waiting for it. What are you waiting for?

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Very nice Ren! one of those moments of movement.....captured. When you cant go right and you cant go left....go up:)

Here's something my friend in Viganj put together for me. My photography from my first year, untethered in the sierra. Jesh's writing and Eyona put it all together. Dylan Jacobson

From one Traveller To Another

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bamboo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote bamboo:

Very nice Ren! one of those moments of movement.....captured. When you cant go right and you cant go left....go up:)

Here's something my friend in Viganj put together for me. My photography from my first year, untethered in the sierra. Jesh's writing and Eyona put it all together. Dylan Jacobson

From one Traveller To Another

Vey beautiful. You have a wonderful tribe. Reinventing, revitalizing, very much in the spirit of conscious apocalypse. You are the archetype ever coming to life.

I love the Sierras. Sparser. Not as difficult to navigate as the Cascades. But still, the Cascades, the Olympics now due north of me, Mt Ranier mistaken for a thunderhead off the wing of the Boeing 707 as I came into SeaTac from boot camp, those were my first exposures to this western landscape after Michigan. There's nothing ever again like the wondering of that first time.

By the way, you've used the word "untethered" a couple of times now, and I really like that word, but I wondered if you could give it a little more context It sounds as if there may have been a tethered of some kind before. I was talking earlier of two types of freedom, freedom from and freedom to. See any relationship with your untethered? Or maybe you have a different seeing involved in your words.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

In our yearning for a Twain for our Times, we do need to remember that Great Writers at the end of the 19th Century, were rock stars. Today, they daringly publish their works online, and maybe paper gets print as well. In the media celebrity world, writers have a tough time being entertaining on talk shows.

I think we have a lot of smart, insightful, witty "writers" out there, but "writing" and language competes with tweets and slogans and acronyms. If there is music in the words, the syntax and the shades of meaning found in a rich vocabulary, abbreviation is not likely to help. We can always appreciate a lean style where essences are revealed, but the simplicity on the other side of complexity is not a stripped down version.

What makes a writer write is "vocation" or "calling" because I cannot see anyone who is not so impelled doing this work. I am glad to meet writing writers as well as to exercise my own enjoyment in these conversations. My "jones" about what is going on is not shared by a number of people I know, so my "cultural pathology" is done so they don't have to. At some point, that makes my job getting what needs to be known into digestible form. I am hardly alone.

This is a windy way of saying thanks and to add bamboo to my list of faves. I hope the rest of you already know that I dig your posts, and by implication, you.

Among trickster writers, I nominate Miguel de Unamuno, Basque Existentialist/Catholic.

Using myths and metaphysics to avoid direct political discourse and its consequences has been with us from the beginning and goes on. Selling fear is tabloid entertainment compared to making our fears palpable so we imagine dealing with them instead of living in their shadow. It means having something to say.

That requires listening, observation and reading. "Bird," Charlie Parker, boiled down artistic performance and creativity in general to, "You learn your axe, you learn your music, then you forget it all and blow." There is a lot of sweat and preparation in learning to write well. Your technique and your grasp of the art and vision develop in the woodshed, and in performances that you learn from. Some of what you learn performing is that you know more than you thought. Other parts tell you that you were not as ready as you assumed. If it is really down pat, you need to go blow it up again.

Keeping our imagination lively so we see it clearly before engaging the complexities we did not notice and enjoy changing our minds as our refreshment rather than confusion comes from the curiosity of the heart.

Christmas does belong to apocalyptic literature, so may Peace, Joy and Good Will in a Green World be that Great Inbreaking that washes entropy away. Happy New Year.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Yes, I do have a writing jones. Admitted.

I try to find ways to get my hits without imposing on anyone else. I used to be a master of one-liners, but that got entangled with my liminal efforts to figure out what happened during my Vietnam experience, and I lost the knack for brevity. Happens when you focus on why. I can't get it back except with family, and perhaps that's an explanation for why it's gone, if anyone cares.

As the result of my own evolutionary movement into new fields of exploration after my own Vietnam shock syndrome, I have to acknowledge that loss. It has a very direct social consequence for me. A disconnection, an aloneness phenomenon -- but the hunger to be alone distinquishes from loneliness.

Combined with the factors you've noted, most notably that your jones is not shared by many others, drc, my abandonment of the clever sound byte brevity has contributed to my version of the writing I do here, which is more to me like that Charlie Parker version where I practice performing the 45 minute essay at least once every day. It's movement, often subconsciously revelatory, has become kind of a rant, a rap or a jazz riff for me. I don't ever really know if anyone's listening. Probably Charlie Parker doesn't know either.

I mean, performance is kind of a weird phenomenon in our society. People often think it is supposed to be correlated with monetary payment, not the rewards of a deeper cultural connection. That crass cultural perception becomes its own culture-determining force. Like facebook, or twitter. Is anyone listening through the one liners? Is it merely a connection jones for the industrialized and consequently disconnected? Does it matter that the hosts are making $millions off them?

Editing, by the way, is not necessarily "correcting mistakes" -- though it would include that -- but as mechanics of grammar improve with practice, it becomes the potential for discovering even more. It's part of the jones of writing.

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.ren
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Quote .ren:

I try to find ways to get my hits without imposing on anyone else. I used to be a master of one-liners, but that got entangled with my liminal efforts to figure out what happened during my Vietnam experience, and I lost the knack for brevity. Happens when you focus on why. I can't get it back except with family, and perhaps that's an explanation for why it's gone, if anyone cares.

As the result of my own evolutionary movement into new fields of exploration after my own Vietnam shock syndrome, I have to acknowledge that loss. It has a very direct social consequence for me. A disconnection, an aloneness phenomenon -- but the hunger to be alone distinquishes from loneliness.

Brevity is a problem for me as well. It didn't used to be. 'Tis difficult to share an insight with a one-liner. They sometimes seem so "out-of-bounds", they need an explantion. I'm not adept at presenting metaphors.

I once had a friend with whom I could be with...and be alone at the same time. A unique experience for me. I've sought a great deal of alone time all of my life. I was the monastery "hermit" excused from all community functions.... though only utilized that privilige about half the time.

Being alone has never equated to loneliness for me. I can't recall feeling lonely. It doesn't compute when someone describes the experience to me.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Nicely put about editing! The analogy to live music performance is the difference between showing off and communicating. Music is about the communication, while "pop" tends to be about the former. You can hear singers who are all about their voice and vocal skill set, and then you hear a singer who opens the song to a deeper knowing by finding the music in it.

I appreciate the preparation you take to contribute such readable and interesting posts. Even when you go seat of the pants in the moment, the practice you have put in finding the right words and the right rhythm for the ear of the reader still guides you.

Chuck Israel was talking on KBOO last week about having been a very young bass player in Paris where he played with Bud Powell and other expatriate jazz greats. The Paris audience was very star struck by the American jazz players, and Black artists got treated a lot better there than here. In America, getting to know who was worth listening to in jazz was harder. Not that many jazz radio stations and very little on tv. But some good stuff, compared to now. Still, for a jazz artist in America to know that they were being "heard," it was hard to beat the reaction in a club.

Heard can mean heard of as "the new thing" for the would-be hip, or it can mean a celebrity who draws a good crowd; but listened to is something else, and that is what a club can measure where record sales and stadium crowds cannot. Chuck was talking about how Bud Powell had reached the sad stage where he was "performing" for his fans by playing rote stuff without any real creativity. He was still really good at playing Bud Powell, but the bass player was bored.

Chuck also described "playing" with Cecil Taylor, the darling of the avant garde, and how Cecil never played "with" anyone else, and how that sucked for everyone else. Even if he was exploring the caves of hidden meanings in his mind, there was no conversation, just Cecil doing his exercises. It has taken me a long time to find the skills and the level of art to make music in improvization instead of just hitting the changes and playing cliches with enthusiasm. Learning is humbling even as it leaves us doing what we did not think we could and not being able to explain how or why other than in "forget it all and blow."

I had a fun conversation with a young environmental engineer neighbor who has that engineer curiosity in how things work, design and so forth. I asked him what joy he found in being an engineer, and he lit up as we got to that point where imagination ties all the research and design thinking together and something new is found. He has gotten past technique and how old thinking obscures vision, and that clarity emerges or bursts, and another journey into the mystery takes off!

My hunch is that the essential element for imagination is a human heart. Otherwise intelligence tends to serve the masters of war and greed. Imagination becomes thinking that this deathstar world is realilty rather than its deep perversion. The heart says NO! as it says YES to being human.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

I feel that metaphor is our verbal door to intimacy. Without its creative potential, the English language becomes little more than a pidgin or creole form of descriptive technical communication. We could just as well be talking to a computer. Sometimes I felt my high school English class was little more than a reduction of the great potential of language to something lifeless and technical.

We -- or some of us at least -- tend to expand the meanings of ordinary word meanings to develop a more private, metaphorical, and thus playful language of imagery and heart in our more dynamic and playful relationships -- and those tend to be informal and intimate. Everyone knows about the line. An example of that effect expanded to a community would be something like Ebonics. Our education system in a general way has been very effective at squashing cultural differences.

One of my writing teachers joked with a student who used metaphors to imply sexual innuendos in the classroom and said, those are the easy ones, we pretty much all get those referencess. If you want to avoid clichéd writing, take what you are doing with those common metaphoral inferences to your favorite nether regions topic, move it up to your heart and see if you expand it in other ways in your writing.

Doing so opens a door to sharing. But intimate sharing isn't what's expected of a job applicant in our technological society. We don't really need the language arts, so we now witness an excising of that vestigial organ from education programs at all levels.

You can't really describe being playful and metaphorical any more than you can explain a joke. But everyone who does it knows it's happening.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

I want to try to suggest a few connections that can build upon what drc introduced with his discussion of playing jazz and learning, contrasting with performing jazz as rote clichés. In doing so I'll try to correlate that to the notion of intimacy, which also, in my own narrative, correlates with privacy, and with using spoken language -- another form of playing jazz, or it could be a form of performing rote clichés.

This is not going to be easy. Patience, please. I generally don't try to do this much, but this conversation is evolving in interesting ways, so maybe it's worth a try. All I can do, though, is suggest and let others try to wrap their minds around the ideas and see where it goes for them. Here's what I consider a core of thoughts of what I'm referring to from drc:

Quote drc:

Chuck Israel was talking on KBOO last week about having been a very young bass player in Paris where he played with Bud Powell and other expatriate jazz greats. The Paris audience was very star struck by the American jazz players, and Black artists got treated a lot better there than here. In America, getting to know who was worth listening to in jazz was harder. Not that many jazz radio stations and very little on tv. But some good stuff, compared to now. Still, for a jazz artist in America to know that they were being "heard," it was hard to beat the reaction in a club.

Heard can mean heard of as "the new thing" for the would-be hip, or it can mean a celebrity who draws a good crowd; but listened to is something else, and that is what a club can measure where record sales and stadium crowds cannot. Chuck was talking about how Bud Powell had reached the sad stage where he was "performing" for his fans by playing rote stuff without any real creativity. He was still really good at playing Bud Powell, but the bass player was bored.

Chuck also described "playing" with Cecil Taylor, the darling of the avant garde, and how Cecil never played "with" anyone else, and how that sucked for everyone else. Even if he was exploring the caves of hidden meanings in his mind, there was no conversation, just Cecil doing his exercises. It has taken me a long time to find the skills and the level of art to make music in improvization instead of just hitting the changes and playing cliches with enthusiasm. Learning is humbling even as it leaves us doing what we did not think we could and not being able to explain how or why other than in "forget it all and blow."

What I hear in that riff is drc talking about the language of jazz as a form of intimacy among the players who also happen to be on stage being observed in their communication with each other in Paris. Now what's key about Paris and why that audience is characterized as receptive to the musical language, where Americans are generally less so, is beyond any definitive analysis in this discussion for me, though it should not be beyond anyone's imagination if they want to explore it. If I was sitting in a cafe having coffee with friends, what I'd try to do with my language about all this might be... no, would be different. And that difference is in essence what this discussion of intimacy and privacy with language is about.

Key contrasting concepts I draw from that include "playing with" and the individual player performing technically but also rotely, or, you might say, clichéd, which for the others on stage is not a "playing" with, thus not an intimate musical conversation.

Here's a general hypothesis I want to introduce in this context: Languages of commerce, I introduced them in an earlier post as pidgins and creoles, have certain characteristics that make it possible for people to communicate about very basic trading activities, but generally lack the nuanced notes of intimacy that evolve with languages of place.

English is a kind of amalgam of a lot of different languages. It's capable of being much more than a pidgin or creole language, but it evolved and incorporated many different languages probably because it has been an evolving language of commerce for quite some time. If you look at it in those terms, hold that thought, and think about our cultural narrative explaining our history, which also helps define a sense of national world view, we have general assumptions broadly contrasting civilization with primitive. In the narrative of empire, though empire is not a common word in the narrative, we get an implied good (American exceptionalism, sharing our "democracy") involving conquest of the primitive, and therefore the possibility of imagining a preconquest consciousness that includes a language that may no longer even exist. So I'm asking, what would that preconquest consciousness and its language be about?

I want to begin to offer some considered thoughts to that question from people who are considering a form of conscious apocalypse the they have been calling "rewilding." I feel this relates to some of what bamboo has been sharing, but it's only my intuition speaking, not a statement of certainty. Here's a guy talking about the "rewilding of our language." I'll just include a few paragraphs for a taste test in case anyone is interested:

E-Primitive: Rewilding the English Language

Quote Willem Larsen:

Does the language we speak blind us to the way the world works? Can we make better observations, and therefore better choices, by changing the way we speak?

English, a language of commerce, exists as an amalgam of countless languages—Latin, Greek, Germanic, French. It embodies the spirit of a homeless, rootless culture. As it evolves, it acquires more and more words, getting more and more specific.

As a language of commerce, the strength of English lies in its low-context, highly technical/specific capacity. “Low-context” means you don’t have to know back-story or belong to a specific subculture to understand English the world over. Business English stays the same globally, along with software/IT English, agricultural English, oil/petroleum/geologic English, etc.

Conversely, animist languages (those that come from indigenous cultures deeply connected to their place) can barely keep it together to stay consistent from one side of the valley to the next. Why? Because they base themselves entirely on connection to place. Their specificity lies in nonverbal experience of a specific, unique place, or cycle of places (in terms of nomadicism).

Language determines how we communicate our experiences of the world. Therefore, it also limits what we can see and how we see the world. You could say that language works as the lens of our cultural eyeglasses. In sustainable cultures, language extends beyond humans to the landscape and the spirit world. In unsustainable cultures the language abstracts the culture from the land, holding its members hostage, forcing the people to continue a destructive lifestyle, even to death.

As members of civilization, perhaps the most unsustainable culture ever, we can assume that our language and therefore thoughts, serve to separate us from the land. If we want to free ourselves from the destruction, we may alleviate the process by digging our way back in time through English, and studying the remnants of animist languages, we can find a more indigenous origin point with which we can carry forward a more realistic view of our world.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

Whew, great post. I want to take the time to read it again before I give it the reply it deserves. The only thing that I raise now is the past and future rediscovery of "English" in our time and place suggested in your "indigenous origin point" you quote from Larsen.

To go back to the jazz performance/conversation theme, it has to be in "real time" in the live context, and even classical players have to play every piece "as if it were the first time" every time for it to be conversation rather than chit chat or rote, as in public diplomacy and political speeches most of the time. What the artist brings to that moment includes listening to the other musicians and allowing that deep listening to guide one's own "speech" from a place beyond "knowing" called "awareness."

How does what I know from listening to countless other players going all the way back and then to world music and an awareness of sounds and possibilities beyond the vocabulary I was taught inform my fingers and breathing? I can affirm that the more I strip away the glib and familiar, the more I find music happening. To me, that means that it is rooted in human community and the stories of real people. The artistic tribute to these roots needs to stay connected and not be cut off from them. Jazz is the triumph of African aesthetic over Whitey's 'exceptionalist' idiocy. It even helps us understand what is great about Scots-Irish music when it went to bed with the Blues.

Anyway, traditions stay alive when they are connected to what is happening now, so getting our roots to live is the point, but I really don't enjoy playing Dixieland or staying inside the lines. It is both/and.

drc2
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Paris has been a treasure trove of artists whether musicians, writers, or intellectuals. The 50s and 60s had Kerouac, Ginsburg, Burroughs, and Terry Southern in Paris among others..the paris review.art+of+fiction

ren, you've used the map and territory, and we've both used chess in our geopolitical framing. I am still using stage and theater metaphor for my activism or participation in issues important to me. There is even a way to instill life in inanimate objects that resonates. Jimmy Stewart did a poem about a camera and it told it's story recording important events in family history, it was beautiful, and it ended with "I'm just a camera" or something like that.

I referenced a work by the-art-of-fiction-no-24-aldous-huxley somewhere on this board. He was experimenting with peyote [I remember now, the recent religion thread]. This is an interesting interview, actually they all are imo.

What would you say makes the writer different from other people?

HUXLEY

Well, one has the urge, first of all, to order the facts one observes and to give meaning to life; and along with that goes the love of words for their own sake and a desire to manipulate them. It’s not a matter of intelligence; some very intelligent and original people don’t have the love of words or the knack to use them effectively. On the verbal level they express themselves very badly.

INTERVIEWER

What about creativeness in general?

HUXLEY

Yes, what about it? Why is it that in most children education seems to destroy the creative urge? Why do so many boys and girls leave school with blunted perceptions and a closed mind? A majority of young people seem to develop mental arteriosclerosis forty years before they get the physical kind. Another question: why do some people remain open and elastic into extreme old age, whereas others become rigid and unproductive before they’re fifty? It’s a problem in biochemistry and adult education.

The interviewer goes on to discuss neurosis with Huxley and says "You've never had much use for Freud, have you" A great line, and the answer I agree with. His observation about school children is also correct.

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douglaslee
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Recently a brokerage house underwrote a loan that they then took a derivitave position of fail on. They then encouraged the client to default on the loan. No penalties for the broker, no press coverage because "That's just how things are" or that's capitalism. The same thing happened when Goldman Sachs marketed crap funds that they knew would fail and thus took a short position and paid no price for deceiving the clients. n

My mental doodling produced; A special effects team for a film production needed an incendiary device disguised as a smoke detector. They contracted a smoke detector manufacturer to design and build it, and they did. A mistake found the plan in the computer replaced their real product's design with the incendiary plans and before they caught it they had a whole warehouse full of the faulty devices. An enterprising team decides they can make money on them. Market them to low income housing units with subsidies from the local government elected on income inequality. The company will fail once all the units catch fire as they were designed to do, so load the company up with debt before the lawsuits come in and also sell the stock short. Get a law partner in on the gound floor of the class action suit that follows. Take a put position on the insurance company that holds the homeowners policies. Make a partnership with a developer that can raise the burned out housing and replace it with upperscale units marketed as gentrification. Arrange a mail-in rebate scam with the smoke detectors. The rebate claim form in the fine print states it is an agreement for a third party life insurance peasant policy. Win, win, win, in disaster capitalism and financial manipulation combined with political chicanery, with an assist from the legal profession. Now I'm not a cynic, really, really I'm not. Well maybe a bit jaded, but it's fun.

btw, the Chicago fire and the Johnstown flood are real life examples of disaster capitalism. The homes in Chicago were low income units in prime lakefront locations.

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When we practice something, writing, music, painting, cooking, whatever, the act of repetition is like wrapping a present. Then, sometimes, the play -- for me the writing and cooking especially -- can be like unwrapping gifts. Good unwrappings, folks.

Now I need to go wrap and cook for Christmas.

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.ren
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Iceland has a very close relationship to the land, and very protective of it. It's almost a religion: Iceland-39-hidden-elves-delay-road-projects- On the recent religion thread some of the sentiment in this article was touched upon. Culture, environment, and sanctity are a different trinity.

I have not been there, but it is on my bucket list. I almost got to go there a few years ago. I was on a flight from London to San Francisco when my lung collapsed, it's called a pneumothorax [kinda sounds like a Dr Seuss character, no?] Anyhow we were almost to Iceland and landing there would've gotten me immediate medical care. The other option was to continue and land in NY, but a Doctor on board warned against it so we turned around and back to London. Did you know you can't speak with a collapsed lung? One passenger came up and told of a Doctor on Britisn Air that saved a passenger by poking a hole in the air pocket causng the collapse, with a coathanger. I thought Noo, I don't want a coathanger [I couldn't say no, I was writing to communicate, but I didn't have to write that]

Iceland was ruled out because of landing privileges and immigration issues for the passengers. I also would've had to return to the continent by boat since flying was out for a month, and the doctor said no blowing a trumpet. I don't have a trumpet and don't play but I think the idea is to not stress your lungs while the hole heals. I could've asked if I would be able to play the trumpet in a month, and of course he would say yes, and I would say he was an amazing doctor because I can't play the trumpet now. budump bump!

btw, the doctor on the plane was a military instructional Doctor and he had 3 corpsmen in training so I was a test case, and they all listened to my chest through a stethoscope. I wrote a few questions myself for them. Everything is a learning opportunity, really.

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douglaslee
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My wife's ethnic heritage is Icelander. Matriarchy at the hot spot of the cod fishery, so genetic drift was a big factor. But, telling the banksters where to put it is in line with the culture.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

I think it's a Scandinavian thing. I coudn't find Iceland on Geert Hofstede's culture comparison list, but plugging in Norway and Sweden geert-hofstede.com/norway. shows the matriarchy in the MAS measure that most likely parallels Iceland's. They also prosecuted banksters and recovered faster than any other country. They offered asylum to Bobby Fisher, and Snowden ought to consider it, too.

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douglaslee
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Oooops, part of what Snowden's 'leaks' reveal is how slavishly Norway and Sweden have been as "intelligence" partners spying on the Russians. He has a better chance with Brazil.

drc2
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There's a lot of history of Russian subs grounding themselves in the Baltic and North Atlantic in waters they were not supposed to be. Norway offered to help the sub stranded on the bottom a few years ago, Russia refused and let the crew die. Nationalist pride I guess, they didn't want to be embarrased by letting Norway, a small country, show they had the technology the Russians didn't.

Iceland doesn't extradite.

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Creativity, authenticity, cultural norms, or contrived market driven product are issues we talked about earlier. David Byrne's interview crosses similar bridges.

You just mentioned the idea of authenticity, which is certainly a concept which permeates the discussion of music — whether pop music is fake, whether roots music or non-electronic music is “more real,” whether musicians have a right to use the sounds of certain cultures, etc. Is authenticity a useful way of thinking about music?

s what the audiencewanted. That, to the audience, seemed authentic.

He had been a prisoner and everything, but they also adjusted his music so that he used to play pop songs. And they said, “Now you can’t be doing those pop songs — that doesn’t fit the narrative we want to hear from you.” That happens all the time — and not just by some promoter or record company guy. Musicians and performers do it to themselves. They self-mythologize. They create a narrative that they think, “This is the narrative that I want to put forward; this makes me an interesting person.” And it’s contrived and there’s nothing authentic about it at all.

And then as decades go by, those mythologies and narratives harden. Authenticity is always an argument about the past,

Think of the concocted personalities for performers, Cable Guy is a supposed red neck, the lawyer in Buckskin Jacket, and even Sarah Palin had entry music and lights when her bus tours were doing a road show, staging replaces talent. W was stage managed, back drops and lighting were key, and props.

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douglaslee
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But, what do you do with Lady Gaga, about as authentic a performer as I can imagine, and definitely an argument about the inbreaking future, and not about what past taste dictates other than to violate that dicta.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

Call 2 B R 0(naught) 2 B, the phone number for the municipal gas chamber. Old age is cured and to keep population at 40,000,000, people have to vounteer to exit [maybe 200 year olds are ready]. They will do so when a baby is due and would push the number over 40 million. Society of the future, by Vonnegut, in a Kindle version at the link.

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douglaslee
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What could be more noble. I salute you!

nimblecivet
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

"Every living thing could all use a little Mercy Now.. (I know we don't deserve it, but we need it anyhow)" (Mary Gauthier)

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.ren
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Quote drc2:

But, what do you do with Lady Gaga, about as authentic a performer as I can imagine, and definitely an argument about the inbreaking future, and not about what past taste dictates other than to violate that dicta.

True, she is authentic because she's hard to define. How can you contrive an image that's abstract. Ozzie Osborne and other noted old guard like her a lot. Groucho Marx liked Alice Cooper. Sean Penn and Elton John consider Bjork to be the most original. I kind of agree with them btw. David Bowie was either a reinvention magician or a chameleon, or 'A work still in progress' [A Barcelona church has been under construction for 500 years] Maybe the product is the process. Perfection can never be achieved, but it can be pursued. [through agony and ecstacy in Stone] Creators-History-Heroes-Imagination read the review with bullet points.

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douglaslee
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The purpose of Gori’s book is to reveal a culture that uses all sorts of technical devices in order to produce a ‘fake’ reality. Gori’s pet topics are Kafkaesque evaluations (mainly in health institutions), the establishment of rigid norms that Max Weber had already recognized as a typical feature of capitalism, an economy in which money is virtual, and a reality that is “produced” by machines and computers which have begun to “think” in the place of humans. Gori writes: “In many areas of our existence, the absurd decisions and disasters are due to a too strict application of formal procedures, to the conformist submission to official protocols and to instructions that disrespect any down-to-earth experience” (p. 34). Gori sees humanist culture being eroded by the culture of statistics and invites politicians to read more Shakespeare and fewer manuals from the Chicago School. The culture of “normalization” creates a system of surveillance demanding “never ceasing visibility, permanent classification, hierarchization, evaluation, delimitation and constant diagnosis of the environment until all individuals have interiorized “the norm.” Administrations are busy fabricating files on practically everything. In this “informational capitalism” the human has been transformed into a neuro-economic entity which cannot (and does not need to) think because she spends most of her energy on grasping the displayed information. Whose fault is it? Normally it is always the fault of those who are in power, but here the masters of the system are abstract because the system seemingly administers itself: “Everything unfolds as if the power is not so much detained by an identified and identifiable master but confiscated by master-networks that condition our existence” (p. 23). The present state of affairs is actually not to the result of an authoritarian regime but rather of a crisis of authority in public life. The mere desire for smooth functioning justifies the existence of functional systems – without questioning what those systems are actually intended to establish. Gori speaks from his experience as a clinician where the “obsession with ‘knowing in order to prevent’ has escalated to the point that new ethical problems as well as secondary effects of this politics of health security have become visible” (p. 69). In particular, we are dealing with a fake technicality through which the impostor legitimates the imposition of norms in questions of health, society, justice, police, education, and research. Gori identifies all this as a large system of impostures of which the financial crisis is only the most visible consequence - See more at: http://berlinbooks.org/brb/2013/07/the-culture-of-the-as-if/#sthash.Y5nLUlLU.dpuf
Is it- ruling institutions are failing, or- failing institutions are ruling? Gori almost describes HAL in 2001.

Experience has shown that the culture of the “as if” does not work in the long run. In the realm of economics, the “financialized” world of numbers simply collapsed in spite of the experts’ professed ambition to be, first of all, precise and to take precautions. What is interesting is that, even in those recent social uprisings that speak out against the ‘fake’ economy of the “as if”, one can feel the vertigo of the virtual. When subjective and objective reality lose contact with each other, the result is necessarily a culture of the “as if.” What follows from this realization is that we should try to exercise judgment within an appropriate topos instead of depending on universal and abstract calculations (as increasingly happens through the use of computer programs). Both Occupy people and champions of ‘assessment culture’ will probably immediately object by claiming that “topical structures” are relativist and lead to corruption. However, what we need to realize is that the purely formal, ‘context-free’ rationality is just as corrupt. Gori makes this point forcefully clear by listing some “statistical lies” that have led to disasters from the Vietnam War to the present crisis in Greece. Once reality is expressed by “experts” through numbers it can be manipulated even more easily.

Wolfgang Kraushaar: Der Aufruhr der Ausgebildeten. Vom Arabischen Fühling zur Occupy Bewegung
(The Revolt of the Educated: From the Arab Spring to the Occupy Movement)
ISBN: 9783868542462
Price: EUR12.00
Hamburg, Hamburger Edition, 2012, 253pp.

Roland Gori: La Fabrique des Imposteurs (The Impostor Factory).
ISBN: 9791020900296
Price: EUR21.50
Paris, Les Liens Qui Libèrent, 2013, 314pp

- See more at: http://berlinbooks.org/brb/2013/07/the-culture-of-the-as-if/#sthash.Y5nLUlLU.dpuf

I think one should do both, judge and use a data base. Start by judging when and if to use a data base, and if so whose data base. If not, be very clear in your mind what is the negative if your judgement is wrong, and how was this possibility established. Was it history [empiricism], or superstition, or just an assumption of worst case scenario to 'check the box' based on protocol.

Example: I am against capital punshment but I don't have a problem with killing people. I have a problem with the protocol that requires it. I have a problem with mandatory sentences, and 3 strikes bs, all of them take judgement out of the equation, we are better than a defined rule book that often times was written to absolve the ones invoking it of responsibility. Or lazy ass politicians.

btw Gori/Weber was right in protocol being a symptom of capitalism. My wife went through prenatal in the US because we hadn't moved to Sweden yet. The Ob/Gyn did screening tests and protocol recommended genetic counseling based on one particular test result. A bit disconcerting but we complied. Two choices were do an amniotc biopsy to determine definitively downs or not, but which could cause a miscarriage due to trauma, or do nothing. I knew my wife's age and genetic history, we said no test. When we came to Sweden for the 2nd and 3rd trimester we filled them in on our 1st trimester record. "We don't use that, no scientific record has proven significant linkage". Genetic testing prompts investment in labs, counciling and procedures, and is also cited as necessary due to malpractice risk. Capitalism protocol put us through hell with my first daughter.

btw, Sweden doesn't do routine colonoscopies either. Think about that when you're doing your prepratory enemas. Someone's making money off of you, but it's your ass.

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douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote douglaslee:
The purpose of Gori’s book is to reveal a culture that uses all sorts of technical devices in order to produce a ‘fake’ reality. Gori’s pet topics are Kafkaesque evaluations (mainly in health institutions), the establishment of rigid norms that Max Weber had already recognized as a typical feature of capitalism, an economy in which money is virtual, and a reality that is “produced” by machines and computers which have begun to “think” in the place of humans. Gori writes: “In many areas of our existence, the absurd decisions and disasters are due to a too strict application of formal procedures, to the conformist submission to official protocols and to instructions that disrespect any down-to-earth experience” (p. 34). Gori sees humanist culture being eroded by the culture of statistics and invites politicians to read more Shakespeare and fewer manuals from the Chicago School. The culture of “normalization” creates a system of surveillance demanding “never ceasing visibility, permanent classification, hierarchization, evaluation, delimitation and constant diagnosis of the environment until all individuals have interiorized “the norm.” Administrations are busy fabricating files on practically everything. In this “informational capitalism” the human has been transformed into a neuro-economic entity which cannot (and does not need to) think because she spends most of her energy on grasping the displayed information. Whose fault is it? Normally it is always the fault of those who are in power, but here the masters of the system are abstract because the system seemingly administers itself: “Everything unfolds as if the power is not so much detained by an identified and identifiable master but confiscated by master-networks that condition our existence” (p. 23). The present state of affairs is actually not to the result of an authoritarian regime but rather of a crisis of authority in public life. The mere desire for smooth functioning justifies the existence of functional systems – without questioning what those systems are actually intended to establish. Gori speaks from his experience as a clinician where the “obsession with ‘knowing in order to prevent’ has escalated to the point that new ethical problems as well as secondary effects of this politics of health security have become visible” (p. 69). In particular, we are dealing with a fake technicality through which the impostor legitimates the imposition of norms in questions of health, society, justice, police, education, and research. Gori identifies all this as a large system of impostures of which the financial crisis is only the most visible consequence - See more at: http://berlinbooks.org/brb/2013/07/the-culture-of-the-as-if/#sthash.Y5nLUlLU.dpuf
Is it- ruling institutions are failing, or- failing institutions are ruling? Gori almost describes HAL in 2001.

Experience has shown that the culture of the “as if” does not work in the long run. In the realm of economics, the “financialized” world of numbers simply collapsed in spite of the experts’ professed ambition to be, first of all, precise and to take precautions. What is interesting is that, even in those recent social uprisings that speak out against the ‘fake’ economy of the “as if”, one can feel the vertigo of the virtual. When subjective and objective reality lose contact with each other, the result is necessarily a culture of the “as if.” What follows from this realization is that we should try to exercise judgment within an appropriate topos instead of depending on universal and abstract calculations (as increasingly happens through the use of computer programs). Both Occupy people and champions of ‘assessment culture’ will probably immediately object by claiming that “topical structures” are relativist and lead to corruption. However, what we need to realize is that the purely formal, ‘context-free’ rationality is just as corrupt. Gori makes this point forcefully clear by listing some “statistical lies” that have led to disasters from the Vietnam War to the present crisis in Greece. Once reality is expressed by “experts” through numbers it can be manipulated even more easily.

Wolfgang Kraushaar: Der Aufruhr der Ausgebildeten. Vom Arabischen Fühling zur Occupy Bewegung
(The Revolt of the Educated: From the Arab Spring to the Occupy Movement)
ISBN: 9783868542462
Price: EUR12.00
Hamburg, Hamburger Edition, 2012, 253pp.

Roland Gori: La Fabrique des Imposteurs (The Impostor Factory).
ISBN: 9791020900296
Price: EUR21.50
Paris, Les Liens Qui Libèrent, 2013, 314pp

- See more at: http://berlinbooks.org/brb/2013/07/the-culture-of-the-as-if/#sthash.Y5nLUlLU.dpuf

I think one should do both, judge and use a data base. Start by judging when and if to use a data base, and if so whose data base. If not, be very clear in your mind what is the negative if your judgement is wrong, and how was this possibility established. Was it history [empiricism], or superstition, or just an assumption of worst case scenario to 'check the box' based on protocol.

Example: I am against capital punshment but I don't have a problem with killing people. I have a problem with the protocol that requires it. I have a problem with mandatory sentences, and 3 strikes bs, all of them take judgement out of the equation, we are better than a defined rule book that often times was written to absolve the ones invoking it of responsibility. Or lazy ass politicians.

btw Gori/Weber was right in protocol being a symptom of capitalism. My wife went through prenatal in the US because we hadn't moved to Sweden yet. The Ob/Gyn did screening tests and protocol recommended genetic counseling based on one particular test result. A bit disconcerting but we complied. Two choices were do an amniotc biopsy to determine definitively downs or not, but which could cause a miscarriage due to trauma, or do nothing. I knew my wife's age and genetic history, we said no test. When we came to Sweden for the 2nd and 3rd trimester we filled them in on our 1st trimester record. "We don't use that, no scientific record has proven significant linkage". Genetic testing prompts investment in labs, counciling and procedures, and is also cited as necessary due to malpractice risk. Capitalism protocol put us through hell with my first daughter.

btw, Sweden doesn't do routine colonoscopies either. Think about that when you're doing your prepratory enemas. Someone's making money off of you, but it's your ass.

My first exposure to examining the dehumanizing effects of institutions came through literature, not social science. I read Kafka's The Castle during my last year of high school while deep in a phase where I was already actively in my imagination alienated to the educational institution, and I was counting down the days until I'd be free of it. When I feel alienated and dehumanized by an institution, that's precisely where an institution fails me, and no social science analyst has brought that out better than Kafka, where I found literature once again lying the truth to me in a way that no institutional analyst, pretending to be a scientist, ever could.

Nevertheless, once awakened to the very idea of institutons as something starkly and piercingly real while maybe more than less invisible as corporeal entities -- while at the same time some sort of powerful organizing force capable of instigating the building of skyscrapers and filling them with humans working mechanistically in cubicles and offices at some institutional task, while being a force with a purposeful ontology all its own, a universe-forming force that has a deterministic effect on someone's life, each someone's life where these organizing forces come into being, but also all lives collectively touched, whether participating or not -- all that can certainly be picked apart like carrion on bones over and over and beneficially studied, maggots and all, as yet another, the psychoanalyst Gori, has. While certainly capable of taking part, that is not what encompasses all of what I mean when I think of a conscious apocalypse. I suppose that could go without saying.

But let us not forget that the guiding charts at the front of the classroom for that study of the bones of the institutions themselves go back to the mid to late 1800s when that "robber baron" era marked the most dramatic examples of the rise of institutional rule over the human herd -- the ever reviled demos -- combined with the logical diminishment of individual participation in the moral and ethical implementation of that phenomenon while pretending to partake politically in something called a democracy.

Probably one of the first and most profoundly insightful to study this phenomenon was Max Weber, though I personally was introduced to one of his brain trust heirs, Jacques Ellul, and his rendition of Technological Society before I plunged into Weber's works. When I read Weber, I discovered that those who have come after offered little more profoundly new to expose the dehumanizing structural characteristics of these odd human creations we categorize as institutions, mythical creatures that then take on a life of their own and rule over the lives of their creators. How naive that the founders of the United States thought they could keep them alive for only ten years, then chop their heads off like they were chickens, and let the owners consume the body. Turns out they weren't chickens at all, they were golden geese. None have become more conscious of this, nor shared their consciousness with those who don't pretend to be social science specialists, any better than (science) fiction writers like Kafka, Orwell or Phillip K. Dick.

Any modern day piece of fiction, be it movie, television series, or books that imagine and present the encroachment of robotic replacements for human beings in any capacity in society, can thank the raised consciousness of those who recognize this decidedly spiritual existence of something we now call institutions. When the gods of any given culture's cosmology cease to respond to the actual daily survival needs of the individuals, and their cosmology then begins to crack, then shatter, disintegrate into smoke like a ghost shot by a shotgun blast of salt on Supernatural, to be replaced by a new cosmology -- like neoliberal free market mythology and all the institutions that form it -- that's where the discussions of the failure of ruing institutions begin. There's no need to run around in circles asking which came first, the chicken or the egg, not when there's a real crisis of consciousness at hand.

You see, now its gone to the Kafkaesque extreme where we see an institutionalized justice system ruling that these bodyless collectives whose purposes we all now mindlessly serve, nor need we be mindful to serve them, to have the same protections of freedoms and rights of corporeal individual human beings. And those freedoms and rights are measured by something just as abstract and morally intangible as the purpose of an institution that we call "money."

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.ren
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'The Trial' is also an Orson Wells movie.
  • Metamorphosis opens with the guy waking up as vermin. Other insects are of a higher order than vermin. Butterflies are beautiful [and free, until swallowed by a bird]. Bees are necessary, shrimp are scavengers, palmettos are like the Godzillas of insect world. From what insect's pov would you want to relate a story? Cicadas are interesting, 17 years old and their only goal is to mate. I bet they'd have a tale to tell, and not that tabloid 'Fly on the Wall' pulp stuff.
  • douglaslee's picture
    douglaslee
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  • Orwell, George - 1984
  • Orwell, George - Animal Farm
  • Orwell, George - Collected Essays
  • Orwell, George - Down and Out in Paris and London
  • Orwell, George - Homage to Catalonia
  • Orwell, George - Politics and the English Language
  • Orwell, George - Looking Back on the Spanish war
  • Orwell, George– New Words
  • Orwell, George– Rudyard Kipling
  • Orwell's reflections on the useless nature of the English language when describing certain things in your mind, feelings and thoughts is interesting. New words are brands, and very few new verbs. Maybe that's why metaphor is so important, it's the only tool we have to deal with an inferior product.
  • 38-wonderful-foreign-words-we-could-use-english are kind of what Orwell refers to in New Words. ie: L’esprit de l’escalier -literally 'stairwell wit' clever retort thought of too late to deliver
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    douglaslee
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    Or, "I wish I had said that," which when said by Oscar Wilde, was topped by GB Shaw saying, "you will Oscar, you will."

    Finding one's authentic 'voice' means filtering through a lot of "influences" and having something from which to depart. Even if one is leaving everything behind, one is still tied to what is inside the brain, and what "everything being left really is." What strange new land does one find oneself in?

    I prefer the idea that we integrate and look beyond what shapes us. Those who have not studied the tradition can be genius, but they tend to be drawn into the "good stuff" when they show up. Mostly they come up from deep and very authentic roots.

    The nuances and shifts in rhythmic and harmonic theory tend to react to what is being done in the clubs, churches and streets first. Bringing all this together tends to be the work of the great composers who find that sweet spot and center that "rocks" and makes us want ot sing, dance or get to inner spaces. How harmonies and rhythms are twisted, oponed, run together and pulled apart is a lot like how speech finds rhetorical music and persuasive power. How poetry exposes emotional truths to vulnerability, and how good that is!

    Neo-logism can be ridicule as Colbert does with "truthiness." We are awash, however, with abbreviated and superficial vocabularies that gloss rather than reveal what is going on in between the lines.

    drc2
    Joined:
    Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am
    Quote drc:

    Finding one's authentic 'voice' means filtering through a lot of "influences" and having something from which to depart. Even if one is leaving everything behind, one is still tied to what is inside the brain, and what "everything being left really is." What strange new land does one find oneself in?

    I'm not sure if that was meant to connect to your quip from GB Shaw, but I missed the connection if it was.

    That aside, the above paragraph was where I had to stop and pause in my reading, and even reexamine the assumptions I had to imagine involved in what was being said.

    I am most perplexed by the very notion that one would need to set out to find something authentic about oneself. Like, search through the debris in one's own mind to fine one's authentic voice for instance.

    I then became concerned about the issue of departure from that, once found. Very thought provoking paragraph.

    OK. For me, my sense of authenticity when I "speak" out is a feeling of being at home with myself. My sense of morality, my sense of ethics and how I feel in my relationships with all the other species and features of my home here, planet earth. That makes up my authenticity, but I already know that, I don't have to look for it. Nevertheless, I'm talking about something we call voice, and I guess I have gone to some lengths to step aside and examine my voice when I speak... or write. What do you do if you don't like your voice? It probably helps if a person likes their voice.

    Now this notion of leaving. "To depart' is just a verb expressing a sense of leaving. But why would I want to abandon my authentic voice? Perhaps as an exploration I could try out a different voice and see how it fits? Therefore perhaps as a time of learning? As in acting as another being on what we could call a stage? How about trying out acting as a soldier and actually killing another human being somewhere on this planet? Act of authenticity or learning? What happens to my deep sense of authenticity in that situation?

    Or perhaps I could try acting as a used car salesman and sell some naive soul a piece of junk car, knowing full well it's a piece of junk, and knowing from their financial application for a loan that they won't be able to afford to repair it; but the company's bottom line is enhanced and the piece of junk is gone from the lot. I did my job. And that's a metaphor for all the personal responsibilities of the free market culture, in case anyone missed it.

    So yes, leaving the mentally constructed world that's come to make sense to me (my own private mental ward, ha!) offers lots of possibilities, not all of them necessarily good. Would I "leave" it (if it were even possible) merely for the sake of learning? Would leaving be a learning of what it's like to kill another human, or would I be discovering my authentic self by doing so? How often have we heard someone tell us or someone else, "you don't really know what you are capable of doing" and by implication saying "you don't really know your authentic self." And what voice is left when I learn that? Kind of like, in what strange new land do I find myself? If I find I'm lost, can I go back and redeem my authentic voice? I know many who have spent years, even the rest of their lives trying to find an answer that one.

    I'm just noticing that because I don't feel a tendency for "something from which to depart" as part of my sense of authenticity. I'm not trying to say that my sense of the world needs to be rigid and unchallenged. But I have found opportunities to depart from what I consider limits to my willingness to act, and in finding that I have found my depth of stubborn refusal, and I've been condemned: "You're a stubborn jerk, Ren."

    Did Snowden find his authentic voice? Only he can really know. If we are going to base our own actions on what Snowden found for himself, I fear we would be seriously adrift from our own.

    Even while betwixt and between in a rite of passage (I'm thinking specifically here of military boot camp as a rite of passage) I would not be (and in fact I was not) inclined to abandon my sense of authenticity. Even when I was being screamed at to not think for myself and follow orders, I remained true to something about myself, and it was something they could not take no matter how many intimidation techniques they tried. In the end you come through it. Maybe outward behaviors are new, but something inside remains intact. I tend to feel that whatever this concept "authentic" references, it must have a sense of holism and a depth of feeling, which is much more inclusive than a suggestion that just the ideas and words that others share can impart to us

    Seems to me that at best we can feel a sense of "yeah" or something like that when we connect with someone's words. But if someone is in need of another's words for guidance, I guess then they best go looking for that authentic self.

    Which brings me to a question that resounds all over the place, even in discussions on this board between people with obvious sets of expressed attitudes that differ markedly from others. What's the relationship between finding one's authentic voice and the turmoil I see surrounding something I never saw called Duck Dynasty, and someone named Phil Roberts who expressed himself in a GQ interview? Is all that about the authentic self speaking out, or just frivolous entertainment?

    So probably it's worth knowing our authentic selves, if anything in our lives is worth knowing.

    .ren's picture
    .ren
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    Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

    Authenticity does not necessarily mean consistency. One can hold contradictory beliefs without knowing it. Examining your beliefs means when you give voice to them, the voice of confidence is justified.

    Scale is another factor in giving voice to one's thoughts. Minutia might be misconstrued as a broad sweeping generality, when it's just a tile in the mosaic, or a thread in the fiber, [or a molecule in the cell].

    My nephew graduated this year with a degree in political science. Family Christmas dinner brought my neices and nephew together, and I sat with them to get caught up. My nephew used the Chomsky material I had given him [Manufacturing Consent] for his senior paper. He's in Berlin now for immersion German. Berlin is second to Paris for significance in the arts and humanities. One niece is in sociology/psychology and my oldest daughter is taking the same so I compared their course directions and offered resources.

    btw, I have had my 'yeah' moments with many posts on this thread and a few others elsewhere.

    douglaslee's picture
    douglaslee
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    Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

    This protocol management example combined with the diefied military prevents an obvious decision any normally thinking human would make. Manual overide ought to be an option, switch off the god damn autopilot. I bet if they upgraded the spreadsheet and entered the cost of juvenile diabetes they would get a result of approval. [it's always money]

    douglaslee's picture
    douglaslee
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    Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
    Quote douglaslee:

    "Authenticity does not necessarily mean consistency. One can hold contradictory beliefs without knowing it. Examining your beliefs means when you give voice to them, the voice of confidence is justified.

    Depends, if you try to measure consistency then I suspect you'll run into some issues that will appear to be contradictions, and therefore you might judge someone's words in terms of consistency, not some deeper aspects of what they are trying to say.

    I don't consider authenticity to have much to do with measurement. But I rely on feeling and intuition first, and my rational thinking only comes in for me as a tool. That's referring back, once again, to that map is not the territory notion we've been using.

    I suspect that's different for everyone, but would predict it would be especially so for the people who rely heaviest on objective rationality in their chosen way of moving through life. And more often than not rationality will lead in their attempts to achieve a sense of certainty. I also notice there tends to be a strong correlation between that cognitive strategy and a love for debate. I personally don't have a great love for debate, so maybe that's why I notice. I prefer airing respectful differences and letting those differences stand.

    Science, one of the most significant tools of the Age of Reason, attempts to achieve levels of certainty moving from hypothesis to theory to law -- and seldom every achieving the certainty of law -- with achieving a consistency of results in testing procedures, that are most certainly attempts at being rational and objective from that mode of thought.

    Unfortunately, theoretical physics and the philosophy of science put a big dent in the positivist versions of the scientific method by bringing into question the source of all objectivity, that is, our human subjectivity. That was a huge blow to the logical positivists' egos. People like BF Skinner who attempted to base their science of the human mind on those objective principles of certainty never recovered, but the behaviorism he favored as primary basis in the teaching of psychology has given way to the more cognitive perspective that relies on the recoginition of human subjective interpretation.

    Thankfully that version gives us permission to bring our minds back to our own free will, grounded in our physical bodies as a starting point in any classroom that might raise the question of who or what we are. Like, are we human beings equipped with facilities for self seekin our own ethical and moral concerns or are we merely the behaviorally modified products of our environment? If the former, which is what I operate from, that's a perspective that I consider gives students at least a stumbling chance at embarking in life with at least some fledgeling notion that they can rebel against the deterministic behavioristically designed forces of their society's institutions.

    Though Chomsky has denied any relationship between his theories in linguistics and his politics, I'm of the opinion that his own political views on anarchism are grounded in this fundamental cognitive view of free will that implies a potential, at least, for volitional human action in life. It's always of great amusement for me to read a libertarian so-called intellectual critiquing Chomsky, for it's Chomsky's theory that freed institutional psychology (and that includes industrial management psychology) from the mind numbing theories of behavioristic determinism that free the theoretical individual that libertarians put at the top of their ultra rational social hierarchy.

    This cognitive, free will perspective was first brought to bear as a critique on the then dominant perspectives of behaviorism in a tide turning debate between Skinner and Chomsky. That debate began when Chomsky decided to review Skinner's theory of language learning presented in Verbal Behavior. The debate occurred shortly after Chomsky had received his Phd in the Fifties for his revolutionary ideas about language, and human language acquisition, that he had just published as a book, Syntactic Structures. Skinner's behaviorism was at the pinnacle of the social sciences at the time. Chomsky was a young upstart with a rather novel and contradictory idea. A revolution on the order of Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions followed.

    Similar to the unsettling of the belief that the earth was the center of the universe at one period of time in human history, the behaviorists had their beliefs about human learning and behavior questioned, and the questions were of such unsettling power that they were forced to examine them. Some didn't do much about changing their perspectives and those were gradually "eased" out of their positions in various universities as the new Chomsky-inspired cognitive theories began to take over those fields in social science. I don't know what that has to say about their individual sense of personal authenticity. Not much, I suspect.

    .ren's picture
    .ren
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    Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

    Glad to be reminded of the Chomsky/Skinner show which was still behavioralist when I was an undergraduate. I really did not learn to color outside the lines until later, but I did get to move beyond the high school, answers in the back of the book, or found in the text to fill in blanks. How to kill history. Make it about remembering 'facts.'

    My creativity was more music centered, as was my awareness of racism because the music I wanted to hear had to be sought out, often on the lower powered stations. RandB, which made "rock" kind of boring when it showed up to cover the great Black artists. Then more people discovered the real thing, and Pat Boone had to give up having hits covering Little Richard. The image clash is soooo great!

    The point about "voice" is that it refers to what artists, musicians, singers, authors and poets say about moving beyond discipleship or practicing the use of influences rather than having them come together in an integrated "authenticity." In liturgical terms, it is what the Transfiguration Story is about with Jesus and his disciples. First he asks them what others say about him. They give him a bunch of reports from the front of what people are saying. Then, he says, "who do you say that I am?" Now they have to give voice to their own integration of their world and their personal encounter with Jesus.

    When authors find their own use of language to communicate or to take us on flights of wild imagination, they develop a style. If they are good, that style is an inviting language with an aesthetic sense of what "reads well." James J. Kilpatrick, once he gave up writing conservative political opinion, wrote a weekly column on writing in which he emphasized rhythm for the ear in the mind, and he also dismissed showing off while admiring virtuosity which was not always lean and clean in the "less is more" canon. I am more familiar with how the music I have heard and played, and the time I have spent with technique, allows me to "forget it all and blow," and that is not actually "leaving" this world even if it stepping off the edge of the improvizational cliff to do something "new" rather than play the memorized notes.

    Obviously, the healthy development process would be nurture to allow the chicks to leave the nest with wings ready to fly, and I will never give boot camp a positive review. It does turn decent citizens into killers. How much it remembers what "warrior" means or what it means when a "warrior" comes home and needs to be decommissioned from that identity into a citizen again. In other words, we don't get much of the latter and have a lot of deeply wounded people around us from their military service even if they never got to war.

    .ren, your reaction to what was attempted is about knowing which cliffs not to be pushed off. An extreme price was being demanded, and you would not pay it! Something you had processed from your childhood spoke to you where many others could not hear it. Some of them woke up later and heard it loud and clear becoming Vets against War. Others live quiet lives of desperation.

    Sure is fun to quote great lines.

    I have stumbled into writing, beginning with verbosity and getting some times to learn the art of the short column. I got better as I read what I did not like on the other side, meaning learning to care more about what is read than what I am writing. Making a jazz solo "make sense" instead of just hit all the right chord changes and fill in with 'correct' notes is about phrasing, leaving time and space, and finding some arc of enclosure. While writing is for the inner ear and eyes, feeling like one is speaking when writing helps me, I think. It is not that I would say the words I write in an actual conversation, but I hope they come across conversationally.

    The easiest response to 'consistency" in jazz would be Miles Davis. Five totally different styles, each leaving a fan base behind a bit angry about the new Miles: but consistently Miles Davis 100%

    It also gets at how we can leave our "identity" for a new one without betraying the past. Zen has some teachings about Being and NonBeing that are about being too attached to one's "identity" because "new shit comes to light." Quoting the Dude. I think we have to be more playful about these ideas. Tradition as the living faith of the dead to which we connect in a living present means being as creative as they were, not to stay in their shadows.

    It is certainly good to re-examine our labels and brands. Not only how are they heard and seen, but whether they really do the job of representing who we are. Is Progressive what it means to us, and is that sufficient? Does the fact that Conservativism in America comes dressed in Classical Liberalism cause too much confusion on both sides to make these flags worth carrying?

    Anyway, think of it as a "vision quest" where we go to discover ourselves so we can come back and live in mutuality with others. That stage in human development labled "Self-Dependent" is where it moves beyond Dependent and Counter-Dependent. For American culture, the issue is whether we are moved to InterDependence or stuck in the Self where Selfish happens.

    drc2
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    Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

    ren and drc2, the last two posts were incredible. They were deep yet understandable, and pretty darn close to what I've been thinking myself.

    /The-Structure-Scientific-Revolutions- anniversary edition had mostly kudos, with one annoying gnat, probably a tea party # or one of the trained 1 star reviewers on anything not conservative enough. [that's not a conspiracy, I saw a training video for just such practices]

    One other thing that binds the written, the auditory [music and spoken], and the graphic is the message trying to be conveyed. The spoken word can be invigorating or inspiring, or consoling, or in a Socratic way enlightening and informative. The written, music, or graphic can fulfill those same emotions. The parameters of the message can also determine if the voice that delivered it was a success or not. That design professor I mentioned somewhere always referred to our work as the gestalt. Problems were given as assignments and how we solved them were our gestalt.

    I may be the only one that sees a similarity in the various venues of creative expression, but to me they are real and that's why I relate to the topics in this thread, and the directions they take us. I do tend to veer off into tangential connections, but that is my thought process, especially with time on my hands and a thirst for answers. [sometimes before the question is asked or defined] I rarely make declaritive statements, but often share my process and the conclusions it produced. I always ask my kids why they did something or what they thought of their actions afterwards, before I offer my own view, whether it be critical or questioning, or congratulatory [mostly the latter]. I love requiring them to think, and sharing their processes with me.

    douglaslee's picture
    douglaslee
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    Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

    Oh douglaslee, have I not said thank you enough? I am glad you found my post worth your time and assure you that I read and am informed by you on many threads. We all bring some depth from our personal narratives, and they do connect if we allow the big story to be big enough.

    When I hear authors talk about how their characters have taken their own course rather than what the author thought they would, as the story develops, what I really hear is a creative conversation where the charcaters become real people instead of characters. The author is drawn deeper into the story than an objective 'writer' would be. Something happens that shifts expectations, and that is what makes the story worth telling!

    I think you are doing a great job as teaching dad. You do realize that you are setting your kids up for some serious opposition. The truth may make us free, but it does not make it candyland. I think knowing what is real is always a gift of grace in the epistemological quest. Having a pillar of fire and mysterious guide is a great metaphor for what it takes to be in time as opposed to being "on time."

    We can circle the drums about that jazz kon sometime. It is all about being "in time."

    drc2
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    Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

    drc2, you have expressed appreciation before and I thank you for that. I was just explaining my sometimes tangential equating so I am not seen as derailing decent threads and discussions. A Swedish label for someone out of sync in a discussion is 'ax handle' [in Swedish]. A guy carving ax handles by a roadside is continually getting asked by passersby what he's making, "Ax handle" is always his answer since that's what he's making. His hearing is failing in later years when a car stops and asks for directions, "Ax handle" was his answer. So if something I post doesn't fit you can call me ax handle and I'll understand.

    Rorschach style inkblots [symmetrical] don't have right or wrong answers, but some people see order and others see chaos if there is no symmetry or similarly simple examples of order. Some questions on IQ tests show more complicated patterns and relations between the image in the question and the choices offered as answers [images can be numbers, graphic, or semiotic signs or words].

    douglaslee's picture
    douglaslee
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    Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

    I don't know if you remember Howard, doug. I suspect you would, but perhaps you never tried to engage him in one of his attempts to develop a dialog, which was something he was inspired to do on this board, in this message board environment, resulting from his experiences with the Bohmian Dialogue movement. So you might remember his name but not necessarily what he was trying to do. To put that into context here are some references to that movement:

    Bohmian Dialogue

    Bohm Dialogue

    Bohm Dialogue

    Bohm Dialogue -- Wikipedia

    I'd first stumbled across David Bohm as a thinker when I was exploring Eastern philosophies and I went fairly deeply into one particular thinker who spoke to me and my particular frame of mind, or approach to the mind, and that was Krishnamurti. In reading the breadcrumbs he'd left behind I stumbled across what were called "investigative dialogues" between Krishnamurti and David Bohm. Here's a fairly well presented version of what those were about: The Bohm-Krishnamurti Project.

    Since I had the audacity to proclaim this thread was to be about consciousness, here is a brief sentence that suggests how that project might relate to the conversation we have been having:

    The co-exploration of consciousness by the unique spiritual figure J. Krishnamurti and world-renowned theoretical physicist David Bohm took place in a series of more than 30 investigative dialogues.

    in relationship with Howard and his attempts at bring David Bohm's own dialog theory and practice to a message board, here are a few suggestive statements from by David Bohm from his "On Dialogue":

    Quote David Bohm:

    Dialogue is really aimed at going into the whole thought process and changing the way the thought process occurs collectively. We haven't really paid much attention to thought as a process. We have ENGAGED in thoughts, put we have only paid attention to the content, not to the process. Why does thought require attention? Everything requires attention, really. If we ran machines without paying attention to them, they would break down. Our thought, too, is a process, and it requires attention, otherwise its going to go wrong….

    In such a dialogue, when one person says something, the other person does not, in general, respond with exactly the same meaning as that seen by the first person. Rather, the meanings are only SIMILAR and not identical. Thus , when the 2nd person replies, the 1st person sees a DIFFERENCE between what he meant to say and what the other person understood. On considering this difference, he may then be able to see something new, which is relevant both to his own views and to those of the other person. And so it can go back and forth, with the continual emergence of a new content that is common to both participants. Thus, in a dialogue, each person does not attempt to MAKE COMMON certain ideas or items of information that are already know to him. Rather, it may be said that two people are making something IN COMMON, i.e., creating something new together.

    It seems then that the main trouble is that the other person is the one who is prejudiced and not listening. After all, it is easy for each one of us to see that other people are 'blocked' about certain questions, so that without being aware of it, they are avoiding the confrontation of contradictions in certain ideas that may be extremely dear to them. The very nature of such a 'block' is, however, that it is a kind of insensitivity or 'anaesthesia' about ones own contradictions. Evidently then, what is crucial is to be aware of the nature of ones own 'blocks'. If one is alert and attentive, he can see for example that whenever certain questions arise, there are fleeting sensations of fear, which push him away from consideration of those questions, and of pleasure, which attract his thoughts and cause them to be occupied with other questions. So, one is able to keep away from whatever it is that he thinks may disturb him. And as a result, he can be subtle at defending his own ideas, when he supposes that he is really listening to what other people have to say.

    Perhaps you might even hear some echoes of our references to Korzybski's "the map is not the territory" voiced in those remarks, a concept which I encountered during my exploration of Krishnamurti and David Bohm's dialogues in different words, before I ever read Korzybski, when Krishnamurti would often say "the description is not the described," which he would further elaborate with examples like: "It is like a man who is hungry. Any amount of description of the right kind of food will never satisfy him. He is hungry, he wants food."

    In relation to your association with the Swedish "axe handle" syndrome -- and I would consider syndrome an insider joke or comment applied to an unfortunate outsider who everyone but the outsider recognizes is out of synch with the group -- I offer this brief explanation of the Bohmian Dialogues that our friend Howard tried to bring to this board:

    What is Bohmian Dialogue?

    Bohmian Dialogue (B-Dialogue) is a form of communication that connects people to what is deeply real in their lives. It was created by quantum physicist David Bohm in partnership with spiritual teacher Krishnamurti.

    Typically, in a B-Dialogue session a group of up to 25 people sits in a circle, at first in silence, noticing whatever shows up in their bodies or passes through their minds. When someone speaks, it occurs as an authentic expression from the heart or soul, about whatever is important for that person at that moment. Everyone’s job is to listen for meaning rather than focusing on “facts.”

    Almost every time I hold a Bohmian Dialogue session, people report afterwards how deep the experience was for them, and how much they miss silence in their busy workaday lives.

    The Power of Silence

    One of the most important aspects of B-dialogue is to recognize the difference between “speaking from silence” and “speaking to fill silence.” The former is rare in our culture, the latter is almost an addiction.

    In B-Dialogue, the emphasis is on full and authentic self-expression, bracketing out assumptions and judgments, and actively listening for meaning.

    B-Dialogue has no agenda—no topic is set in advance. The content of the dialogue is whatever arises spontaneously from the group. It involves whatever is truly and authentically on the minds (and alive in the bodies) of each participant and the group.

    By giving full self-expression, participants can remove blocks and deepen their experience of being in relationship—with themselves, others, and the world around us.

    Feeling Your Thinking

    It works by learning to feel your thinking, rather than merely thinking your thoughts (which is what happens in most other forms of communication).

    B-Dialogue provides an opportunity to learn (perhaps for the first time since kindergarten) to pay attention to and honor the innate wisdom of our bodies. We begin to notice that feelings are the source of all our ideas. Every thought begins as a feeling in someone’s body.

    Sacred Silence

    In B-Dialogue, we have an opportunity to “return to the source,” to the concrete feelings that connect us with the world. We explore the fragmentation in our thinking (and how this shows up as fragmentation in our relationships, in society, and in our lives).

    B-Dialogue provides a safe “sacred space” for participants to engage directly with what is actually happening in their experience—to feel whole and in relationship with people, planet, and the spiritual dimension of our being.

    I very much admired Howard's valiant effort to try to make that happen here at Thom's. I leave it to anyone who has made any serious effort to watch what takes place in any thread on this board, or any other, to decide for themselves if Howard was on an impossible mission or not. I'll keep my own opinions to myself. I don't feel or believe anyone needs them.

    .ren's picture
    .ren
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    Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

    I enjoyed this a lot, and having led a lot of group process, discussion and goal forming sessions where much of this was used although I don't remember this particular body of theory.

    Listening, beginning with silence and then the offering of sincere and deeply held concerns, is a prayer service.

    Brainstorming is about free wheeling venturing without concern whether the idea will stand up, and when people let go of their fear of being wrong, something someone ventures will suggest something better to someone else. Getting intellectuals to risk with their colleagues is not easy, but when it happens it is really fun to see thinkers rediscover thinking.

    It also helps to confront our everyday practice as debating rather than conversing. We learned in school to have our corrections of others ready before they ended so we could jump in before someone else grabbed the mike. Competetive education makes being right more important than getting it right together. Being right all the time means you are not learning anything.

    Creating that kind of listening, venturing and learning on a board like this might work if we could get all who come to play to do so within tighter rules than other threads would require. Could we create that space and invite others and expect them to buy into the 'church' before they engage in debate about our assumptions, etc? It is hard to say.

    On the other hand, each of us can work at these principles for our own effectiveness. We can sharpen our hearing and relax our defenses so our assumptions don't jump into the conversation instead of what the other person is saying. If we know already what is being said, we can confirm that by listening, and there is no hurry to rebut it. It won't go away.

    drc2
    Joined:
    Apr. 26, 2012 11:15 am

    This is in response to drc's post # 150, that includes these lines:

    Quote drc2:

    I enjoyed this a lot, and having led a lot of group process, discussion and goal forming sessions where much of this was used although I don't remember this particular body of theory.

    Listening, beginning with silence and then the offering of sincere and deeply held concerns, is a prayer service.

    Brainstorming is about free wheeling venturing without concern whether the idea will stand up, and when people let go of their fear of being wrong, something someone ventures will suggest something better to someone else. Getting intellectuals to risk with their colleagues is not easy, but when it happens it is really fun to see thinkers rediscover thinking.

    The term "prayer session" may appropriately apply to the Boehmian Dialogue form. I don't sense that Bohm ever thought it should be used to brainstorm for an objective. However, I'm not a big fan of the verb 'to pray', though not because I have anything against prayer or praying, but because of my own somewhat mixed history with people who employ the term as part of an organizing religious precept, specifically in ways that use authoritarian principles to enforce a kind of obligation to comply. If it weren't for those variations in my experience, the term might not have such a fragmented meaning for me. But I am able to think of it in a more generic way, just pointing out what comes to mind when I hear the term.

    You've also alluded to some of the key factors that I feel relate to the consciousness raising aspects I personally find in the descriptions of the process, though I've never personally been through one. I've done group Zen meditations that have some of the same features.

    I'm OK with "Sacred Silence"... if not so comfortable with prayer.

    Sacred Silence

    In B-Dialogue, we have an opportunity to “return to the source,” to the concrete feelings that connect us with the world. We explore the fragmentation in our thinking (and how this shows up as fragmentation in our relationships, in society, and in our lives).

    B-Dialogue provides a safe “sacred space” for participants to engage directly with what is actually happening in their experience—to feel whole and in relationship with people, planet, and the spiritual dimension of our being.

    Sacred is an adjective that hasn't been contaminated for me by someone employing various forms of violence (or you could say forms of violation to be more precise) to force me into doing something. Which some people thought they had the right to do when I was twelve, because I was young and they were older, and with that awareness on their part, all that goes with the ontology of age in their minds. Sacred, then, just a description, and it's for me to use as I see fit. And silence... well, I live pretty much in a state of silence, which I am ever less willing to disrupt. My home is very quiet most of the time.

    That doesn't begin with some sort of theory, though, it begins with my own discovery of the effects of being in space where I don't intentionally inject noise, which began way back when I was wandering through the fields and woods as a child on our farm. Of course, silence is not without sound unless one has never had or has lost one's ability to hear. So in my case, silence is more the absence of employing various degrees of white noise to cover over the sound that's always there.

    Sacredness has a sound itself in my mind, and what I'm doing when I use the term is describing that sound, which is the sound of attention when all of a sudden I realize there are all sorts of sounds around me, and then I become conscious of what's taking place without my intentional intervention to mask it for whatever reason, which after a time begins to seem more like thoughtless repetitional habit and less intentional to me. Not that I consider that's good or bad, just that it doesn't sound like sacred presence to me. I connect with what's beyond me by not employing means of covering it over. That feels more like a "whole... in relationship with people, planet, and the spiritual dimension of our being."

    The issue of fragmentation comes up a lot in the coexploration of consciousness in which Bohm and Krishnamurti engaged over those twenty five years of conversation. Bohm's own attempt to instigate consciousness exploration seminars after Krishnamurti's passing in 1986 resulted in the creating the form known as the Bohm Dialogue. Here's what Bohm had to say about that form not long before he passed in 1992:

    If I had known what the Bohm dialogue process would become I would stop it all. It may be too late. There is a serious misunderstanding of dialogue in my name.—David Bohm, 1991

    Why would he say that? one might wonder. Well, I suspect it has something to do with this notion of fragmentation and how that can interfere with conscousness. That is, to attempt precision, the sacred, holistic kind of consciousness that is pointed to by "Sacred Silence." I suspect David felt the process was being fragmented through misunderstanding and used for a purpose. That's my own sense of it after troubling to listen to what he's had to say about consciousness, specifically with what he identified as "proprioception" of thought.

    [W]hat Bohm scientifically identified and carefully developed throughout the Seminars as “Proprioception of Thought” is identical to what Krishnamurti called “Meditation.” And in the final session of the 1992 Seminar, Bohm would prove that it was possible to enter into the “Proprioception of Thought” mode by announcing that he was in it; and then link the two actions by describing what he and Krishnamurti had been experiencing in their Dialogues since the earliest ones in 1965.

    (From: Bohm Consciousness Seminars)

    Of course, the question one needs to ask to make any sense of that is "what does Bohm mean by "Proprioception of Thought"?" Do I even need Bohm's answer to that?

    Science Dictionary

    proprioception (prō'prē-ō-sěp'shən) Pronunciation Key
    The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself. In humans, these stimuli are detected by nerves within the body itself, as well as by the semicircular canals of the inner ear.

    The Proprioceptive Self

    Seems overly complicated to go through all that trouble to talk about what I seek naturally.... balance.

    .ren's picture
    .ren
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    Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

    We Know How Far Trump Will Go - How Far Will Republicans Go?

    Thom plus logo Colonel Vindman's testimony pretty much proves that Trump was trying to shake down Ukraine for information on Biden, and that the Republicans are doing everything they can to cover up this extortion attempt.
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