Is Thom Hartmann a paid propagandist for Putin/Russia/RT?

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First I want to say that I really respect most of what Thom has to say about a variety of subjects.

However, I find it ironic that, given his outspoken criticism of oligarchs in the U.S., he has chosen to work to further the agenda of Russian oligarchs by broadcasting on RT (Russia Today), which Putin and his cronies fund and oversee to ensure that their view-point is widely disseminated.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I also heard Thom today promoting the idea of greater cooperation with Russia, and an in-depth discussion of the merits of Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto.

Surely, if Russia is going to be a topic of conversation, we could also look at their extensive list of human rights violations, persecuted political prisoners, aggressive expansionists military actions, their repression of gays and woman, their lack of fair elections, and the list goes on.

Again, we need strong, intelligent, commentators to help us fight injustice around the world. I just hope that Thom has not simply sold his voice to a different group of tyrants, who are even more repressive and destructive than the ones in the U.S.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/the-russians-and-american-progressives-tog...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2014/04/25/even-after-russian-ag...

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ChrisD36
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Comments

Perhaps you should regularly monitor The Big Picture to see if there's anything to your concerns. You might find it more enlightening than some of the stuff you might pick up over in Breitbartistan. Oh, and welcome.

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Intermittent In...
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Jan. 24, 2013 9:48 pm

Russian officials have made clear that they understand the US and NATO policy is "regime change against Putin."

Why is our government, under Wall Street's bidding, provoking another thermonuclear power? MIght they have a desire for world-wide annihilation if they can not be the undisputed alpha-dog?

Promotion of the idea of greater cooperation with Russia shows the brilliance of Thom's perception and logic.

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Karolina
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Quote ChrisD36:

However, I find it ironic that, given his outspoken criticism of oligarchs in the U.S., he has chosen to work to further the agenda of Russian oligarchs by broadcasting on RT (Russia Today), which Putin and his cronies fund and oversee to ensure that their view-point is widely disseminated.

Not in evidence. Can you provide examples?

Quote ChrisD36:I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I also heard Thom today promoting the idea of greater cooperation with Russia, and an in-depth discussion of the merits of Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto.

So, do we assume that you are opposed to constructive dialog with Russia? If so, why? What is accomplished by NOT pursuing dialog with Russia?

Quote ChrisD36:Surely, if Russia is going to be a topic of conversation, we could also look at their extensive list of human rights violations, persecuted political prisoners, aggressive expansionists military actions, their repression of gays and woman, their lack of fair elections, and the list goes on.

Bravo! I agree. I also believe that Americans should take a closer look at the American government's violations of human rights (such as killing people with drones), the persecution of whistleblowers revealing gross criminal behavior by government, and the control of the American government by the rich. You agree, right?

Quote ChrisD36:Again, we need strong, intelligent, commentators to help us fight injustice around the world. I just hope that Thom has not simply sold his voice to a different group of tyrants, who are even more repressive and destructive than the ones in the U.S.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/the-russians-and-american-progressives-tog...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2014/04/25/even-after-russian-aggression-liberal-thom-hartmann-still-with-russia-today/

Gracious me, it looks like your desire for "discussion" is tempered by your political bias that "progressives" are dirty commie Rooshian stooges.

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John Jeremiah Smith
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i, too, have to question the marriage of thom hartmann's show and RT. the site reminds me of old soviet lines of argument, focused on the weaknesses and contradictions of the west and especially the u.s., trying thus to seize the moral high ground while denying THEIR government's outrages, intimidations, and politically-motivated jailings.

an example of the site's anti-american, pro-russian bias was their describing the crisis in ukraine as 'american-led."

then again, tho the site is biased as described, so what? what's the harm in being exposed to propaganda, if we think? if we don't, propaganda is our inevitable guide. i'm old enough to filter RT through broken-in conceptual lenses, cerebral algorithms.

maybe thom is there because that's who'll put him on a widely distributed channel.

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lifesize
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Comrade Chad, We are all lovers of Mother Russia . You capitalist pig.

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RichardofJeffer...
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Quote lifesize:i, too, have to question the marriage of thom hartmann's show and RT. the site reminds me of old soviet lines of argument, focused on the weaknesses and contradictions of the west and especially the u.s., trying thus to seize the moral high ground while denying THEIR government's outrages, intimidations, and politically-motivated jailings.

Tu quoque is invalid argument.

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John Jeremiah Smith
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Quote Wikipedia:

Tu quoque (/tˈkwkw/;[1] Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position. It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented.[2] It is a special case of ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented.

:)

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Karolina
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Quote Karolina:
Quote Wikipedia:

To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented.

:)

You miss the point. Tu quoque does not provide support for the objector's argument.

Example:

Person A: "You stole a horse!"

Person B: "So did you!"

Person B has committed tu quoque. In saying "you too", he implies the validity of the initial accusation (and his own guilt), but provides no support for his own counter-accusation while doing so.

Tu quoque is nonproductive.

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John Jeremiah Smith
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As Thom explained, RT America is not the Russian version, and while it will work to overcome the load of Cold War nonsense flung around in our media, you get to check it out and see what you think of it. Thom is on FSTV as well, and his show is the point of having more eyeballs with RT and a far more honest presentation of opinion you can evaluate than what is put forward on CNN as journalism and experts.

I am pretty sure that Thom is not intimidated by RT execs should he disagree with other programs or their message. They need him more than the reverse.

There are many trustworthy journalists exposing the Neocon NATO Nonsense in the Ukraine. Beating up on Putin is right in line with the old storyline, so it goes down without any thought at all. Even having to include Russian propaganda and lies in your sort of information is useful.

How do you parse CNN? Is MSNBC the truth to power voice? What does it matter to know it is a pile of shit if it is being sold by the wagonload by the slickest hucksters ever? You still have to deal with the story they are stuck to even when you see it as toxic sludge and quicksand.

Chris and lifesize want us to take the lying crap we have had shoved up all our orifices in a balanced way. Others repeat the bald lies exposed as if nothing had happened.

When we stare back dumbfounded, they take it for not being able to grasp their truths. We wonder if they realize people can read what they have posted. Putting silly and stupid ideas into words communicated in a text exposes what you think is true to general review and evaluation. You get some who are just pissed off having their favorite lies and flattering myths revealed to be crap. You get some bright people who think they have the world by the tail with this field theory of everything that is too brilliant for them to see their way out of.

Thinking is not an adequate word for what it takes to appreciate how earnest liars and mistaken people of sincerity get caught inside the box or use the box to keep their game going. We have pushed the limits of subtlety elsewhere, but post-Enlightenment "thinking" is not desCartes simple "I think, therefor I am." Awareness and consciousness, the brain/body system, and so much other than logical and rational abstractions of experience treated as literal and linear facts and realities has to be involved to get off the superficial.

The very idea that Thom being on RT makes Thom a propagandist poisoning the American discourse misses the problem by mega miles.

drc2
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Quote John Jeremiah Smith:
Quote Karolina:
Quote Wikipedia:

To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented.

:)

You miss the point. Tu quoque does not provide support for the objector's argument.

Example:

Person A: "You stole a horse!"

Person B: "So did you!"

Person B has committed tu quoque. In saying "you too", he implies the validity of the initial accusation (and his own guilt), but provides no support for his own counter-accusation while doing so.

Tu quoque is nonproductive.

I think that I basically understand Tu quoque, John Jeremiah. My post of the Wiki definition was in case ChrisD36 and lifesize didn't get that their accusations and objections have no merit or validity.

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Karolina
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Quote Karolina:

I think that I basically understand Tu quoque, John Jeremiah. My post of the Wiki definition was in case ChrisD36 and lifesize didn't get that their accusations and objections have no merit or validity.

Stop taking the fun out of waxing pedantic. :-)

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John Jeremiah Smith
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Quote John Jeremiah Smith:

Stop taking the fun out of waxing pedantic. :-)

No problem.

Please, carry on! :)

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Ah...now I see why this thread exists. The US Government is launching a propaganda campaign against RT News. US Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG), Andrew Lack called RT a threat to the US saying, "“We are facing a number of challenges from entities like Russia Today which is out there pushing a point of view, the Islamic State in the Middle East and groups like Boko Haram,” he said. “But I firmly believe that this agency has a role to play in facing those challenges.”

When RT countered US government propaganda on the MK17 airliner shot down by the US backed Kiev Neofascists, it really screwed up the false narrative the United States was trying to sale Europe and the world. One reason RT is so effective is because the United States "lacks" credibility in the first place!

After 4,801 American dead in Iraq and 3,236 dead in Afghanistan based on propaganda lies you would think American was be more cautious. Remember the Bush II Iraqi informant named Curveball? Remember the Office of Special Plans (OSP) that just made shit up and recycled it back to itself as if it was newly discovered intelligence information? Remember the Nigerian yellowcake uranium and the “Sixteen Words” in Bush II’s 2003 State of the Union address, “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”? Remember the Iraqi ionized aluminum tubes to build an atomic weapon? But of course it was a lie because the tubes were ionized.

Remember Collin Powell’s pile of lies to the UN about Iraqi’s WMD with CIA Director sitting next to him?

No weapons of mass destruction of any kind were found in Iraq.

No mobile biological weapons labs were found in Iraq.

Iraq did not seek to acquire yellowcake uranium from Africa.

The aluminum tubes were not suitable for nuclear weapons development.

Mohamed Atta, the lead 9/11 hijacker, did not meet with Iraqi intelligence in Prague.

Iraq did not provide chemical weapons training to al-Qaeda.

There was no collaborative relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

The implication that Iraq was involved in the attacks of 9/11 was untrue.

Actually, it is Fox News that is the propaganda bullhorn. Funny, Obama, or John Kerry never calls out Fox News propaganda which is half owned by Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal bin Abdulaziz al Saud --the same country 15 of the 9/11 hijackers orginated. And how much money is Saudi Arabia funneling into the US Reichstag in Washington D.C.?

I am glad there is a network countering the lies coming out of Washington D.C. 24/7.

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Anti, do you remember the cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn, and my favorite line was, "ah say, ah say, someone's cheatin' here! This ain't the hand I dealt myself!"

I know, I love that "all-American" FAUX and its "all un-American" and immigrant ownership. Murdoch's Corp. exploiting anti-immigration stuff is full of comic irony. But the Saudis can do NY and we still hit the targets they want hit. Israel barely comes close to that kind of tail wags dog shit.

drc2
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Quote Antifascist:

I am glad there is a network countering the lies coming out of Washington D.C. 24/7.

Absolutely!

Bravo!

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I meant to say Comrade Chris ... Since this post is ridiculous, I don't feel bad that I got it his name wrong in the first place. It kind of goes along with Chris's overall theme of perpetual wrongness.

Now I can go back to reading me some Pravda.

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RichardofJeffer...
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Doesn't the Devil read Pravda? ChrisCrap deserves a royal flush.

drc2
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Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

Looking over their site, including their corporate history profile page, they do not note their funding source.

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gumball
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I am actually somewhat appalled that Thom is not only broadcasting on Putin-controlled RT, but that I hear him more and more now on the show taking a pro-Russian stance. I can't help but think that he is basically acting as a paid lobbyist for a foreign government at this point and should register as such.

He is accepting money from Russia (an amount which he has refused so far to disclose), and appears to promoting Russian political points of view across the spectrum.

If we are to be Liberals we need to stand-up for Liberal values.

Russia invaded Ukraine, has lied about every aspect of it from the beginning, has stolen Crimea, has killed thousands, caused tens of thousands to flee for their lives, destroyed infrastructure, and generally brought millions of people's lives in Ukraine to a desperate stand-still.

To do anything but condemn this is wrong, and is traitorous to the U.S. and our allies.

As Liberals, we should not support crony capitalism in the U.S., but we should certainly not support the even more violent and greedy kleptocracy in Russia.

Russia harasses, imprisons, assaults, and kills journalists, political activists, and even musicians who go against Putin.

Putin took over the Russian equivalent of Facebook. A bunch of guys in black just showed up one day at VK. This is the normal way in Putin's Russia.

Currently in Crimea, possessions are being stripped from citizens. Whatever land or assets Russia wants, it is just taking.

Russia funds terrorism around the world and sells arms to many of our enemies.

Russia's actions in Ukraine threaten bring instability to the region and are a direct threat especially to all other countries bordering Russia.

There are no real free elections in Russia to this day.

We certainly want to have dialog and diplomacy with any country in the world. However, this does not mean white-washing and ignoring the very real actions of a country that repress its citizens on the inside, and threaten people outside its borders.

Russia furthermore has a history of wielding a large propaganda army, which has purportedly been 1,000,000+ strong at times. Their propagandists are rampant online--just look in the comments of any article about Russia. I truly hope Thom has not become a part of their propaganda operations, which are also notorious for recruiting from the U.S. left.

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Dear Concern Troll,

Not a single link of documentation supporting your false accusations. On the other hand there is plenty of evidence and documentation that counter your Neo-Con, Neo-Fascist, worn-out Cold War propaganda bullhorn! If I wanted to hear this hogwash, I'll go turn on Fox Fascist News broadcasted out of Saudi Arabia's dungeons.

F*** The EU - Neocons And The Neonazi Ukrainian Coup

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Antifascist
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wow "antifascist" who seems to love russian and islamic fascism, you certainly respond promptly! Almost as if, as if, this were your job?

I am calling Ukraine Ukraine. That is not neocon, or neo anything. It is not a new concept, it is an old one. Ukraine preceded mother Russia, it is the original Kievan Rus. And my ancestors were likely there before the Norwegians who started that. Ukraine is Ukraine, not Russia. Get that through your head.

If you want to join Putin's army, then by all means do so. Don't pretend to be a western liberal while doing it.

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ChrisD36
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And by the way "antifascist":

You say "When RT countered US government propaganda on the MK17 airliner shot down by the US backed Kiev Neofascists, it really screwed up the false narrative the United States was trying to sale Europe and the world. "

The only people I've -ever- seen call the legitimate government of Ukraine "neofascists" are Russian propagandists spamming their disinformation online, or particular weak people who fall for the web of deception they are spinning. Russia invaded Ukraine. ALL Russia derived information about Ukraine is pure psycological warfare. Russia is half-Asian, culturally they do not feel a need to speak their mind honestly about anything--culturally the "truth" is relative to what tactical advatange it brings.

If you really want to know what is happening, just ask any Ukranian in the Western world, where they are free to say the truth. You will find that they easily call it for what it is -- simply a Russian act of aggression and invasion. There are sad, as they are a much weaker country, they have undergone much suffering over the centuries, and there is honestly not much they can do against the bullying of their much larger neighbor.

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ChrisD36
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Even Victoria Nuland admitted that fascists were in the Maidan violent revolt, but she failed to admit that fascist held Ukrainian political seats of power. The Fascist Svoboda Party took control of not one, but three ministries in the interim government. The entire Ukrainian ‘defense’ establishment was taken over by the leaders of two nazi parties. So if you are in support of the Ukrainian fascists, what does that make you?

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Antifascist
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I can’t believe what I’m reading…just a few points, but by no means exhaustive.

What is really funny is US Anti-Russian propaganda isn’t ranting about “Communist Russia,” but rather focused on “Bad Putin”. This is because the United States has exported its entire manufacturing industrial base to Communist Red China (remember that title?) so it is a little awkward for the US State Department to use Cold War propaganda without some revision.

ChrisD actually wrote…

“Currently in Crimea, possessions are being stripped from citizens. Whatever land or assets Russia wants, it is just taking.”

If this accusation is true, and you lived in Crimea and protested, you would be a political dissident. But if you where a citizen of another country half-way around the world that confiscated property from its citizens and you said nothing--you would just be a jingoist. Are you saying the good O’ United States, libertarian land of free enterprise and private property doesn’t take its citizens’ property without legal cause? Well, why don’t you ask Long Island businessman, Mr. Jeff Hirsch, about that?

The Washington Post found the following information about asset seizures by private police training companies, and government organizations:

  • There have been 61,998 cash seizures made on highways and elsewhere since 9/11 without search warrants or indictments through the Equitable Sharing Program, totaling more than $2.5 billion. State and local authorities kept more than $1.7 billion of that while Justice, Homeland Security and other federal agencies received $800 million. Half of the seizures were below $8,800.
  • Only a sixth of the seizures were legally challenged, in part because of the costs of legal action against the government. But in 41 percent of cases — 4,455 — where there was a challenge, the government agreed to return money. The appeals process took more than a year in 40 percent of those cases and often required owners of the cash to sign agreements not to sue police over the seizures.
  • Hundreds of state and local departments and drug task forces appear to rely on seized cash, despite a federal ban on the money to pay salaries or otherwise support budgets. The Post found that 298 departments and 210 task forces have seized the equivalent of 20 percent or more of their annual budgets since 2008.
  • Agencies with police known to be participating in the Black Asphalt intelligence network have seen a 32 percent jump in seizures beginning in 2005, three times the rate of other police departments. Desert Snow-trained officers reported more than $427 million in cash seizures during highway stops in just one five-year period, according to company officials. More than 25,000 police have belonged to Black Asphalt, company officials said.
  • State law enforcement officials in Iowa and Kansas prohibited the use of the Black Asphalt network because of concerns that it might not be a legal law enforcement tool. A federal prosecutor in Nebraska warned that Black Asphalt reports could violate laws governing civil liberties, the handling of sensitive law enforcement information and the disclosure of pretrial information to defendants. But officials at Justice and Homeland Security continued to use it.

ChrisD actually wrote…

” Russia invaded Ukraine, has lied about every aspect of it from the beginning, has stolen Crimea, has killed thousands, caused tens of thousands to flee for their lives, destroyed infrastructure, and generally brought millions of people's lives in Ukraine to a desperate stand-still.To do anything but condemn this is wrong, and is traitorous to the U.S. and our allies.”

Both the Ukraine and Crimea have long been a part of Russia and unlike it United States its borders are ancient. Ukraine has been a part of Russia as far back as the 9th century. The Crimea became under Russian control from 1783 to 1954 until Khrushchev turned it over to Ukraine. Crimea voted in a national referendum just like the Scottish Independence Referendum of 2014 to be come a part of Russia. Why are only American sanctioned referendums, like in Iraq 2005, considered legitimate?

No such votes was held when the United States invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and overthrown nearly every nation in the Middle-East in the last 100 years. It is the United States that has historically shown imperialist actions in the Middle-East. The history is so long I couldn’t begin to list them all.

“As Liberals, we should not support crony capitalism in the U.S., but we should certainly not support the even more violent and greedy kleptocracy in Russia.“

You mean like the crony capitalists in corrupt Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Great Britain, Wall Street, and Israel, to name only a few.

“Russia funds terrorism around the world and sells arms to many of our enemies. Russia's actions in Ukraine threaten bring instability to the region and are a direct threat especially to all other countries bordering Russia.”

You mean like the weapons we sell to Mexico that then turn those weapons on its people? Or the weapons we sell to Israel who in turn sells weapon systems to Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua (under Somoza), Panama, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, Liberia, Morocco, Nigeria, Rhodesia, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania, Uganda, Zaire, Australia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Papua-New Guinea, Philippines, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand,and Iran? Israel in among the top 10 arms producers. Or how about Halliburton selling centrifuges to enrich uranium to Iran? That’s right. Read it buddy. Or the United States selling it’s entire stock of C-4 plastic explosives—21 tons-- to Qadaffy?

ChrisD, you need to take a hard look at what your government is doing instead of spreading jingoistic propaganda in support of US imperialism.

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Antifascist
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@ Chris

You're going down the conspiracy rabbit hole by engaging Antifacist. Save yourself the trouble.

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gumball
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propaganda |ˌpräpəˈgandə|noun1 chiefly derogatory information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view: he wascharged with distributing enemy propaganda.• the dissemination of such information as a political strategy: the party's leaders believed that a long period of education and propaganda would be necessary.So, no, period.

Fox IS a propaganda outlet.

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Arrgy
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

Jingoism+propaganda+apathy+contradiction+endless denial=gumball

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Antifascist
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Quote Antifascist:

Jingoism+propaganda+apathy+contradiction+endless denial=gumball

When you talk to a conspiracy theorist for every question you get a torrent of links to tin hat sites. Not much point engaging in a conversation with someone who is not engaged with reality.

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gumball
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gumball wrote...

When you talk to a conspiracy theorist for every question you get a torrent of links to tin hat sites....

Oh! You mean like the link to the C-Span broadcast of Democratic Senator Byron Dorgan (North Dakota) cross examining Halliburton VP, Sherry Williams, for selling key nuclear-reactor components to a private Iranian oil company called Oriental Oil Kish as recently as 2005, and using offshore subsidiaries to circumvent U.S. sanctions against Iran? That conspiracy link?

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Antifascist
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What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Because an American company may or may not have sold something to Iran ten years ago that means that RT is a legit news source, not a front for Russian propaganda?

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gumball
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Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

Ha! You are not even reading this thread. ChrisD wrote...

“Russia funds terrorism around the world and sells arms to many of our enemies. Russia's actions in Ukraine threaten bring instability to the region and are a direct threat especially to all other countries bordering Russia.”

And in response I posted the link showing on C-Span Halliburton's VP being grilled by the Senate for selling nuclear technology to Iran while Dick Cheney was Vice President. Then you claim the links I provided were all part a conspircy theory. You can't remember what you wrote 15 minutes ago?

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Antifascist
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Quote Antifascist:

Ha! You are not even reading this thread. ChrisD wrote...

“Russia funds terrorism around the world and sells arms to many of our enemies. Russia's actions in Ukraine threaten bring instability to the region and are a direct threat especially to all other countries bordering Russia.”

And in response I posted the link showing on C-Span Halliburton's VP being grilled by the Senate for selling nuclear technology to Iran while Dick Cheney was Vice President. Then you claim the links I provided were all part a conspircy theory. You can't remember what you wrote 15 minutes ago?

Because Haliburton may or may not have broke the sanctions on Iran that means the Russia's actions are ok?

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gumball
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Chris Ahole's attack on Thom for the temeritiy of having a show that RT, among others, broadcasts because of its own worth, started the bullshit troll attack on "liberals who don't support liberal values" and straight to the Neocon Cold War story of the Ukrainian Coup as Democratic Revolution and Putin and the Evil One who stands in the way of the Neocon Dream.

Anti had no trouble finding facts, not a conspiracy site, to refute the media blitz trying to make Nuland look like a Liberator and NATO the reasonable ones.

Who shot down that airliner? Oh, we can let the smear on the Russians stand without evidence, and had we had evidence to make it look like they did it, there would not be this cone of silence around that attempt to hang an atrocity on the East.

Russia does not have to be a naive innocent to have a case against Western imperial arrogance and aggression. Gorby has declared that every promise made to him as he ended the Cold War has been broken. Our record has finally achieved the ultimate hypocrisy of being exactly what we condemned in the Soviet Union with our Red Scare.

The West is the aggressor and has pushed the neo-Cold War to the point of risk of global conflict. What "conspiracy theory" is involved in demonstrating that the PNAC cult cannot learn any lesson from history? How would any sensible person explain the stupidity and arrogance leading to the invasion of Iraq? Even the "war on terror" response to 9/11 will be seen as elevating the status of terrorists to warriors rather than building the international support to treat criminals as criminals.

If by some remote possibility, history were to absolve the Cheney Administration of any knowledge of or participation in the crimes of 9/11, there will still be the big questions of why warnings were ignored and the anti-terrorism task force did not meet until after 9/11. Criminal incompetence is the best I can say for these people, and that is a very unlikely summation of all involved. The New Pearl Harbor did not just fall into Darth's hands.

The Big Picture of 9/11 is enough to draw historical judgements sufficient to justify many who may or may not have been right about the details.

The same is true of Ukraine where we see fascists significantly involved in Kiev and the promises made to Russia broken. We also see a rush to the coup and exclusive contracts with the West when Putin had been willing to compromise on a both/and for Ukraine.

ChrisD's material comes straight out of the State Dept. as read by the FAUX robots. His self-righteous insults of those who do not buy his West is Best bullshit does not convince me that he is a serious person rather than a provocateur troll.

drc2
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What do you make of the corespondent who quit on air over the way that RT was reporting on Ukraine?

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gumball
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gumball, introducing red herrings is a cowardly retreat.

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Antifascist
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Quote Antifascist:

gumball, introducing red herrings is a cowardly retreat.

Why is it a red herring?

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gumball
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Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

gumball, introducing red herrings is a cowardly retreat. But I can handle it.

What do you think about American journalist sending articles to the CIA for review before publication? Read the emails from numerous major US journalists to the CIA asking for advice on writing articles on the CIA and US drone activity. Sounds like old school Soviet Union censorship to me. None of the US journalists have resigned.

The CIA’s Mop-Up Man: L.A. Times Reporter Cleared Stories With Agency Before Publication.

[excerpts...]

A prominent national security reporter for the Los Angeles Times routinely submitted drafts and detailed summaries of his stories to CIA press handlers prior to publication, according to documents obtained by The Intercept.

Email exchanges between CIA public affairs officers and Ken Dilanian, now an Associated Press intelligence reporter who previously covered the CIA for the Times, show that Dilanian enjoyed a closely collaborative relationship with the agency, explicitly promising positive news coverage and sometimes sending the press office entire story drafts for review prior to publication. In at least one instance, the CIA’s reaction appears to have led to significant changes in the story that was eventually published in the Times.

“I’m working on a story about congressional oversight of drone strikes that can present a good opportunity for you guys,” Dilanian wrote in one email to a CIA press officer, explaining that what he intended to report would be “reassuring to the public” about CIA drone strikes. In another, after a series of back-and-forth emails about a pending story on CIA operations in Yemen, he sent a full draft of an unpublished report along with the subject line, “does this look better?” In another, he directly asks the flack: “You wouldn’t put out disinformation on this, would you?”

Dilanian’s emails were included in hundreds of pages of documents that the CIA turned over in response to two FOIA requests seeking records on the agency’s interactions with reporters. They include email exchanges with reporters for the Associated Press, Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and other outlets. In addition to Dilanian’s deferential relationship with the CIA’s press handlers, the documents show that the agency regularly invites journalists to its McLean, Va., headquarters for briefings and other events. Reporters who have addressed the CIA include the Washington Post‘s David Ignatius, the former ombudsmen for the New York Times, NPR, and Washington Post, and Fox News’ Brett Baier, Juan Williams, and Catherine Herridge.

...But the emails [from Dilanian] reveal a remarkably collegial relationship with the agency. “I am looking forward to working with you, Ken,” a newly hired agency flack wrote him in a March 1, 2012, email.

“Hooray!” Dilanian replied. “Glad to have you guys.”

On March 14, 2012, Dilanian sent an email to the press office with a link to a Guardian story that said Bashar Al-Assad’s wife had been buying a fondue set on Amazon while Syrian protesters were gunned down. “If this is you guys, nice work,” he wrote. “If it’s real, even better.”

...In another case, Dilanian sent the press office a draft story on May 4, 2012, reporting that U.S. intelligence believed the Taliban was growing stronger in Afghanistan. “Guys, I’m about to file this if anyone wants to weigh in,” he wrote.

On May 7, 2012, the AP, Dilanian’s current employer, broke a story about a secret CIA operation that “thwarted an ambitious plot by al-Qaida’s affiliate in Yemen to destroy a U.S.-bound airliner.” The next day, Dilanian sent the CIA a detailed summary of a planned piece that followed up on (and took issue with) the AP story. “This is what we are planning to report, and I want to make sure you wouldn’t push back against any of it,” he wrote.

Dilanian also closely collaborated with the CIA in a May 2012 story that minimized the agency’s cooperation with director Kathryn Bigelow and screenwriter Mark Boal on their film about the assassination of Osama bin Laden, Zero Dark Thirty. Republicans had been criticizing the Obama Administration for revealing classified details about the operation to Boal and Bigelow while withholding them from the public.

article continues...

Antifascist's picture
Antifascist
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Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
Quote Antifascist:

gumball, introducing red herrings is a cowardly retreat. But I can handle it.

What do you think about American journalist sending articles to the CIA for review before publication?

I am aware of what a red herring is.

I don't think that reporters should allow government agencies to censor their news. It does seem reasonable to me that they do seek their input on sensitive topics and use this more informed opinion on what to release in their story. I'm not sure what this has to do with my question though.

What do you make of the RT reporter who resigned based on what she says as whitewashing Putin and the Ukraine annexation?

gumball's picture
gumball
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Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

Never reply to this troll again.

This is someone citing Breitbart, and "Accuracy in Media."

This is sheer trolling and all you do is increase their hit count. That's the POINT of baiting people. I am adding to it too, but in order to stop it. NOTHING you respond with is not helping this troll. NOTHING.

Just stop.

Close

    Marion Delgado's picture
    Marion Delgado
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    Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

    Thanks Marion Delgado.

    I am familar with "gumball" (endless chewing) with his unresearched driveby posts that just hop from one topic to another without acknowledging factual responses. In the ten years that I have been at this blog, we have seen him, or his avatar before, but it does give me a chance to review and organize by own material otherwise I will forget a lot of my own research and its location. But your advice is good by warning new people to not waste their time. It is obvious what gumball is doing, and that exposes this crowd by reflecting badly on the Rightwing Republicans, conservatives, NeoCons, Ameri-fascists, and the log cabin Breitbarters. Notice that gumball exclusively focuses on male bloggers. That is why I am going to start calling him "honey gumball".

    Antifascist's picture
    Antifascist
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    Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

    @ anti

    What is your opinion on RT?

    gumball's picture
    gumball
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    Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

    Agreed. My own sparring with the cons is part of my curiosity about "what the fuck they are thinking," and gummie is far from the most obstinate or ideologically lost. He also tends to be civil even when the point he is making is more of a taunt than a real question.

    To the extent that others who are not as clear as MG are about why his questions merit a troll mark, like Anti, being able to become more clear and concise about the dissection as well as possibly finding some ways to separate the confused from the trolling makes it worth my time, so far.

    The problem with his RT meme is that Thom is not giving Russian propaganda, and maybe someone on the new side could see a both sides now moment, to give her the best interpretation. The idea that she could have been helped to make this 'moral stand' against Putin's "lies" by any domestic interests or have seen a career move may be unfair. But, this is RT America, and how about that opening on CNN?

    Phil Donohue was fired from telling the truth on MSNBC. Morning Joe is FAUXlite.

    drc2
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    Apr. 26, 2012 12:15 pm

    @honey gumball

    Reference my posts above.

    What is your opinion of the log cabin Breitbart reform group? I understand they are a branch of the Republican log cabin group. I think you guys are doing great reform work for diversity like many on the progressive side.

    Antifascist's picture
    Antifascist
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    Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm
    Quote Antifascist:

    @honey gumball

    Reference my posts above.

    What is your opinion of the log cabin Breitbart reform group? I understand they are a branch of the Republican log cabin group. I think you guys are doing great reform work for diversity like many on the progressive side.

    What post? Reading through them you only address domestic media sources. I am curious about your opinion on RT.

    I am not sure what "Log cabin Breitbart reform group" is, a google search yields no results. If you mean "log cabin group" I do not have any issue with them. They are an advocacy group.

    If you are referring to the Breitbart website, I don't frequent it but from what I know it is an independent advocacy media organization that does not hide it's perspective or goals.

    gumball's picture
    gumball
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    Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

    That's not true. You need to read my posts again, but this time with comprehension.

    Antifascist's picture
    Antifascist
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    Jul. 31, 2007 4:01 pm

    Help me out and point to the post. The only mention you make of RT was in post 14 and you used it in context of critizising US media.

    Do you believe that RT is an independent news source only interested in the truth or do you believe its purpose is to promote a pro Kremlin viewpoint?

    gumball's picture
    gumball
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    Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

    Do you believe the Western media is an independent news source only interested in the truth, or do you believe that they give a rat's a55 about the rest of the world, other than how to control it and get what they can from it through taxes and war?

    Karolina's picture
    Karolina
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    Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm
    Quote Karolina:

    Do you believe the Western media is an independent news source only interested in the truth, or do you believe that they give a rat's a55 about the rest of the world, other than how to control it and get what they can from it through taxes and war?

    "Western media" encompasses thousands of different organizations. Some good, some not.

    Why are you so reluctant to express an opinion on RT?

    gumball's picture
    gumball
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    Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

    Most Western news sources today are similar to the propagandized media of the 60's Soviet Union, while today's foreign news sources, including Russia's RT, are similar to the US media of the 60's, when we were a much gentler, passionate, and conpassionate nation. I like RT.

    Karolina's picture
    Karolina
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    Nov. 3, 2011 7:45 pm

    So you would disagree that its founding purpose is to express a pro Kremlin point of view?

    gumball's picture
    gumball
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    Dec. 12, 2013 11:02 am

    The American Dream is Alive & Well In China

    Thom plus logo As we are seeing millions of people in the streets in Hong Kong becoming politically active, we also learned that roughly 70% of Chinese millennials already own their own homes.
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