"NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses"

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Quote ulTRAX:
Quote mjolnir:

Laypeople, such as the "alarmists" on this forum and many others began switching terms when it became obvious that at least some of the furor engendered by claims from an idiot like Gore and Hansen's much ballyhoowed "hockey stick" graph were hyperbole.

As for the hockey stick... it was from SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO... and just because the hysterical deniers misrepresented it... doesn't change the fact that it was an early attempt at reconstructing past climate through proxies and it stated its range of uncertainty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:T_comp_61-90.pdf 

The original title was Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the past millennium: inferences, uncertainties, and limitations

and yet most of what made it to right wing outlets was something like this

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Me982e06579ffff9c0363c794b6ff6665o0&w... That piece of work apparently from Heartland... a right wing propaganda group http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Heartland_Institute

As with all your similar threads, everything in you've written in this thread says more about YOU and your right wing bias than what you claim to be commenting on. I have no problem of taking on what I see are liberal blind spots, idiocy, or hypocrisy, but can't recall a time where I've never seen you do the same with any issue or person the right.

Seems M was certainly in a hurry to drop the "hockey stick" topic. And I didn't expect him to respond to the question if he's ever criticized dumb things other right wingers have said here.

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ulTRAX
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Quote ulTRAX, still doing the "two step shimmy" wrote:Am I expected to know precisely what new technologies might be invented or how sane or stupid humans will be in the future? Such as question is as disingenuous as asking for case law on the Ninth when you know there's virtually none.
That's funny you had no trouble, if not endorsing, at the very least putting in print, science fiction still waiting to become science fact in other threads. Rail guns, mentioned in one of your links, exist of course but the last time I checked they were firing tiny Al cubes and most self destruct at the first launch. Perhaps you have breaking news?

"So if giant solar shields are placed in space to control solar radiation reaching earth..." - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

And solar radiation control could also be done by seeding the atmosphere, a Space Blind... AND reducing CO2. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

"BTW I didn't pull this idea out of my butt. A space sun shield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_sunshade

first proposed in 1997 by Edward Teller, is just one idea for solar radiation management"

- See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

Lol, I think you did - it still stinks.

"So far you seem to be concerned about 800k coal jobs more than the planet's future." - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/nasa-study-mass-gains-antarcti...
Again, you need to look up the meanings of "facet" and "thrust" and contextualise my usage of them.

By the way, what are you going to "seed the atmosphere" with? ABCee is waiting.

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mjolnir
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Quote still desperate to score some cheap points... and still failing mjolnir wrote:
Quote ulTRAX, still doing the "two step shimmy" wrote:Am I expected to know precisely what new technologies might be invented or how sane or stupid humans will be in the future? Such as question is as disingenuous as asking for case law on the Ninth when you know there's virtually none.
That's funny you had no trouble, if not endorsing, at the very least putting in print, science fiction still waiting to become science fact in other threads.
If you can't make a point without gross distortions... you haven't made a point.. have you Fluffy? I endorsed nothing. My point in bringing this proposal up was merely to distinguish climate control from controlling weather... and as if to prove my point that you'll never correct a fellow right winger no matter what stupid things they say... you just proved my point. Thank you.

Kilosqrd:Saying that we (humans) must do something about climate is saying humans must be able to control the weather. Climate is defined as average weather conditions measured over a specified period of time. Can't control the climate without controlling the weather.

ulTRAX: RED HERRING ALERT. So if giant solar shields are placed in space to control solar radiation reaching earth... is that controlling "weather"? NO. If we create ways of removing CO2 from the atmosphere... is that controlling "weather"? NO. Both would be ways to control HEAT... reaching the earth's surface... and heat re-radiating back into space.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

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ulTRAX
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"I endorsed nothing.", which I noted, ...you having trouble with vision as well as comprehension?

Kilosqrd wasn't the one saying stupid things in that thread. Still waiting to hear what you are going to "seed the atmosphere" with, 'Einstein'? Lol.

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mjolnir
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Ultrax, I beginning to believe you and joiner have a bromance going on.

rs allen
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Quote rs allen:

Ultrax, I beginning to believe you and joiner have a bromance going on.

M is still pissed that some years back he accused me of not being a gun owner. In his mind he must believe all gun owners are Gun Nuts who believe in a bastardized version of the Second which negates the militia clause. I posted my old FID card and my gun's manual and he's been hoping to get back by scoring cheap points ever since. He doesn't seem to realize that the effort often makes him look peevish and silly as in this thread.

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ulTRAX
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Quote rs allen:

Ultrax, I beginning to believe you and joiner have a bromance going on.

I post because it's fun and you occasionally come across a nugget of truth in contrarian viewpoints. 'TRAX posts because it's an itch he can't scratch. His neurosis won't let him quit.

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:

"I endorsed nothing.", which I noted, ...you having trouble with vision as well as comprehension?

Kilosqrd wasn't the one saying stupid things in that thread. Still waiting to hear what you are going to "seed the atmosphere" with, 'Einstein'? Lol.

Come on 'TRAX, share with us the material that you said we might use to "seed the atmosphere". ABCee is waiting, Lol.

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:
Quote rs allen:

Ultrax, I beginning to believe you and joiner have a bromance going on.

I post because it's fun and you occasionally come across a nugget of truth in contrarian viewpoints. 'TRAX posts because it's an itch he can't scratch. His neurosis won't let him quit.

More of your typical PKB? You are the one most prone to disrupt threads, post stories designed to mislead, try to score points with cheap partisan jabs etc. Clearly that's pretty much all you do here anymore and if you consider that as fun, you're fitting the class definition of a troll. That's a far cry from someone who posts in a discussion forum for purposes of discussion.

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ulTRAX
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Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

"I endorsed nothing.", which I noted, ...you having trouble with vision as well as comprehension?

Kilosqrd wasn't the one saying stupid things in that thread. Still waiting to hear what you are going to "seed the atmosphere" with, 'Einstein'? Lol.

Come on 'TRAX, share with us the material that you said we might use to "seed the atmosphere". ABCee is waiting, Lol.

C'mon 'TRAX, tell us what it is - maybe you can post it in the absurd "Reptilian" thread were your compulsion had you make 6 posts in a row. Lol.

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

"I endorsed nothing.", which I noted, ...you having trouble with vision as well as comprehension?

Kilosqrd wasn't the one saying stupid things in that thread. Still waiting to hear what you are going to "seed the atmosphere" with, 'Einstein'? Lol.

Come on 'TRAX, share with us the material that you said we might use to "seed the atmosphere". ABCee is waiting, Lol.

Still playing your infantile games demanding I flesh out what I never endorsed?

OF COURSE YOU ARE.

And still refusing to admit that Kilo was the one who can't get straight the difference between weather and climate straight?

OF COURSE YOU ARE.

Thanks AGAIN for proving me correct that you refuse to EVER correct a fellow right winger no matter how stupid. But then, if you had any integrity as opposed to being mindlessly partisan... you'd end up spending half your time writing stupid things and the other half bashing yourself.

That certainly wouldn't be much "fun"... now would it Einstein?

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ulTRAX
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Since poor little M has problems with reading comprehension here, again, is a post he seems incapable of understanding...

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... you haven't made a point.. have you Fluffy? I endorsed nothing. My point in bringing this proposal up was merely to distinguish climate control from controlling weather... and as if to prove my point that you'll never correct a fellow right winger no matter what stupid things they say... you just proved my point. Thank you.

Kilosqrd: Saying that we (humans) must do something about climate is saying humans must be able to control the weather. Climate is defined as average weather conditions measured over a specified period of time. Can't control the climate without controlling the weather.

ulTRAX: RED HERRING ALERT. So if giant solar shields are placed in space to control solar radiation reaching earth... is that controlling "weather"? NO. If we create ways of removing CO2 from the atmosphere... is that controlling "weather"? NO. Both would be ways to control HEAT... reaching the earth's surface... and heat re-radiating back into space.

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ulTRAX
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And solar radiation control could also be done by seeding the atmosphere, a Space Blind... AND reducing CO2. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

Your words, are you denying you said them?

Quote Moaning: "Forums are my "high" and its destructive to the rest of my life.", ulTRAX aka Pierpont wrote:And solar radiation control could also be done by seeding the atmosphere, a Space Blind... AND reducing CO2.

Your words, do you deny them?

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mjolnir
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/2015/12/4/climate_scientist_james_hansen_warns_world? Carbon taxes would work because the fossile fuel companies pay the fee, the public gets the fee. The subsidies go to the people instead of the polluters and bribers. The lower income folks spend the money they get, the corporations hoard the subsidies they get.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

gThe 10 richest account for 70% of the CO2, the poorest 100 countries account for 3% of the carbon./we_do_not_want_to_be Nicaragua went from 25% renewable to 50% renewable and soon will be 95% renewable. They are not doing the voluntary carbon reductions. Personally, I think the guy knows Americans are deceitful thieves and frauds and have proven they will not even honor their own treaties or historic ones like the Geneva Convention. Private companies defraud and the #1 GOP candidate used bankruptcy based on fraudulent accounting aka dynamic scoring to squeeze bondholders into accepting half the yield he promised them when they underwrote his ego trip.

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douglaslee
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Quote mjolnir:

And solar radiation control could also be done by seeding the atmosphere, a Space Blind... AND reducing CO2. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/bernie-just-stuck-fork-his-cam...

Your words, are you denying you said them?

Why would I do that?

Still playing your infantile games demanding I flesh out what I never endorsed?

OF COURSE YOU ARE.

And still refusing to admit that Kilo was the one who can't get straight the difference between weather and climate straight?

OF COURSE YOU ARE.

Thanks AGAIN for proving me correct that you refuse to EVER correct a fellow right winger no matter how stupid. But then, if you had any integrity as opposed to being mindlessly partisan... you'd end up spending half your time writing stupid things and the other half bashing yourself.

That certainly wouldn't be much "fun"... now would it Einstein?

==============

Since poor little M STILL has problems with reading comprehension here, again, is a post he seems incapable of understanding...

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... you haven't made a point.. have you Fluffy? I endorsed nothing. My point in bringing this proposal up was merely to distinguish climate control from controlling weather... and as if to prove my point that you'll never correct a fellow right winger no matter what stupid things they say... you just proved my point. Thank you.

Kilosqrd: Saying that we (humans) must do something about climate is saying humans must be able to control the weather. Climate is defined as average weather conditions measured over a specified period of time. Can't control the climate without controlling the weather.

ulTRAX: RED HERRING ALERT. So if giant solar shields are placed in space to control solar radiation reaching earth... is that controlling "weather"? NO. If we create ways of removing CO2 from the atmosphere... is that controlling "weather"? NO. Both would be ways to control HEAT... reaching the earth's surface... and heat re-radiating back into space.

==============

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ulTRAX
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Oh, I understand perfectly well. You proposed "seeding the atmosphere" along with a "Space Blind" as methods of controlling solar radiation and when called on it you did the "two-step shimmy" because it plays right in to the absurd narratives of another poster whom you've been berating in another thread. Poor 'TRAX, too busy pounding away at his keyboard to actually think about what he's proposing. Typical!

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:

Oh, I understand perfectly well. You proposed "seeding the atmosphere" along with a "Space Blind" as methods of controlling solar radiation and when called on it you did the "two-step shimmy" because it plays right in to the absurd narratives of another poster whom you've been berating in another thread. Poor 'TRAX, too busy pounding away at his keyboard to actually think about what he's proposing. Typical!

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... or in this case lying through your teeth hoping to score some cheap points, you really havn't made a point... have you Spanky?

I can only assume that you've given up on any substantive arguments... and you hope this transparent diversion will divert from that failure.

Poor baby. You have a choice to grow up... or continue with this infantile charade. So far you've doubled down on the later.

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ulTRAX
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Lol, you said it, "Einstein" then refuse to back it up because you know what kind of idiot it will make you out to be. "Seed the atmosphere" with more of 'TRAX's patented blend of bullsh*t. ABCee welcome Ppbrain aboard. He's a convert.

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:

Lol, you said it, "Einstein" then refuse to back it up because you know what kind of idiot it will make you out to be. "Seed the atmosphere" with more of 'TRAX's patented blend of bullsh*t. ABCee welcome Ppbrain aboard. He's a convert.

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... or in this case lying through your teeth hoping to score some cheap points, you really havn't made a point... have you Spanky?

I can only assume that you've given up on any substantive arguments... and you hope this transparent diversion will divert from that failure.

Poor baby. You have a choice to grow up... or continue with this infantile charade. So far you've doubled down on the later.

ulTRAX's picture
ulTRAX
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote mjolnir:

Lol, you said it, "Einstein" then refuse to back it up because you know what kind of idiot it will make you out to be. "Seed the atmosphere" with more of 'TRAX's patented blend of bullsh*t. ABCee welcome Ppbrain aboard. He's a convert.

You = ultrax, come on man, you've already admitted you said it. If you were any kind of a man you'd back it up. What material are you going to "seed the atmosphere" with in order to cut solar radiation?

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am
Quote mjolnir:
Quote mjolnir:

Lol, you said it, "Einstein" then refuse to back it up because you know what kind of idiot it will make you out to be. "Seed the atmosphere" with more of 'TRAX's patented blend of bullsh*t. ABCee welcome Ppbrain aboard. He's a convert.

You = ultrax, come on man, you've already admitted you said it. If you were any kind of a man you'd back it up. What material are you going to "seed the atmosphere" with in order to cut solar radiation?

Hey 'TRAX, here's your invitation - just in case you missed it, Lol.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/12/climate-modification-technolog...

Quote ABCee:

Published on Dec 10, 2015
The ongoing global deployment of geoengineering was openly discussed at the Climate Modification Technology Workshop - “Atmospheric Manipulation; Opportunities and Threats” at the Istanbul Security Conference, December 4th, 2015. - http://istanbulsecurityconference.org

Subjects discussed included HAARP, human heath effects, creating extreme weather events, officially announced deployment and a legal framework for it's implementation.

Moderated by filmmaker Michael Murphy (What in the World Are They Spraying), it featured:-

• Researcher/activist Patrick Roddie (http://StopSprayingUs-SF.com)...

Waiting.

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mjolnir
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It would be expected that a warming globe would lead to greater snowfall in the Antarctic. That's how weather works.

A warmer atmosphere holds more moisture. When it's released as perciptitation, there will be more of it. When the warmer air meets the colder air of the Antarctic....., presto.......snowfall.

It's a sign of global warming....not global cooling.

The Antarctic is essentially a desert, with very little percipitation. It seems to be moistening up as expected.

Retired Monk - "Ideology is a disease"

polycarp2
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote mjolnir:You = ultrax, come on man, you've already admitted you said it. If you were any kind of a man you'd back it up. What material are you going to "seed the atmosphere" with in order to cut solar radiation?

If you can't make a point without gross distortions... or in this case lying through your teeth hoping to score some cheap points, you really havn't made a point... have you Spanky?

I can only assume that you've given up on any substantive arguments... and you hope this transparent diversion will divert from that failure.

Poor baby. You have a choice to grow up... or continue with this infantile charade. So far you've doubled down on the later.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/11/nasa-study-mass-gains-antarcti...

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ulTRAX
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Quote polycarp2:It would be expected that a warming globe would lead to greater snowfall in the Antarctic. That's how weather works.

A warmer atmosphere holds more moisture. When it's released as perciptitation, there will be more of it. When the warmer air meets the colder air of the Antarctic....., presto.......snowfall.

Of course you realize the article refers to a process that began some 10,000 years ago. That's the warming you are referring to, right?

The extra snowfall that began 10,000 years ago has been slowly accumulating on the ice sheet and compacting into solid ice over millennia, thickening the ice in East Antarctica and the interior of West Antarctica by an average of 0.7 inches (1.7 centimeters) per year. This small thickening, sustained over thousands of years and spread over the vast expanse of these sectors of Antarctica, corresponds to a very large gain of ice – enough to outweigh the losses from fast-flowing glaciers in other parts of the continent and reduce global sea level rise.
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stwo
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Even John Kerry acknowledges the futility of having the US bascially shut down its entire economy for the sake of global warming. Wow, the earth will be about 0.1 degrees C cooler in 2100 if we enact the proposals of Obama. And there is serious discussion about this? Really?!?!

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Mauiman2
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Quote ulTRAX:

...Aside from sea level the bigger problem with Greenland melt is the possibility it could slow or shut down the AMOC which moderates the climate in Europe... http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/150290/

"Journal of Ocean Engineering and Science"
"There is no real evidence for a diminishing trend of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation
A. Parker, C.D. Ollier/ Journal of Ocean Engineering and Science 1 (2016) 30–35"

"Our paper discusses the limits of all the indices and studies proposed so far for the AMOC, also introducing a novel long term index based on tide gauge results that is integrated with the recent satellite observations of sea surface height and temperature, salinity and velocity from profiling buoys. The paper concludes that there is no undoubtable evidence of a weakening or strengthening of the AMOC, as no index returns an accurate measure of the AMOC strength over a time window long enough to clear the longer term trend of the multi-decadal variability. The most likely pattern is oscillatory about a longer term trend not sufficiently well delineated."

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mjolnir
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Quote mjolnir:

"...but we can't help redevelop the coal belt here in the states?" With what? See that's the trouble with you, you always talk in grandiose terms but you never want to give specifics. People need decades long employment and that is probably not going to be provided by "public works." When Blacks left the Southern States to escape racism and poverty there were burgeoning industries in urgent need of workers already on the scene. There are no such jobs now and likely will never be.

"But we stray. If you want to talk coal... perhaps you should start a new thread." No one seems to be interested except you and I. Smilingcat made a "driveby" and then left with his/her tail between their legs. Coal is a vital part of OUR overall energy security and if you think China is going to abandon coal to chase alternate energy sources you're more foolish than I thought:

http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-gr...
"China has been praised recently for its investments in renewable energy. And the credit is well deserved as China's commitment to renewables dwarfs that of the U.S. and other industrialized countries. From 2010 to 2012 alone, China’s renewable electricity growth was double that of the U.S., and it is continuing to grow.

But all the accolades are distracting us from the reality that fossil fuels dominate China’s energy landscape, as they do in virtually every other country. Today, fossil fuels account for 87 percent of all energy used in China. And the focus on renewables also hides the fact that China’s reliance upon coal is predicted to keep growing.

Coal, the most carbon-intensive of the fossil fuels, accounts for 70 percent of energy used in China today and is responsible for about three quarters of electricity generation.

In just 5 years, from 2005 through 2009, China added the equivalent of the entire U.S. fleet of coal-fired power plants, or 510 new 600-megawatt coal plants.

From 2010 through 2013, it added half the coal generation of the entire U.S. again.

At the peak, from 2005 through 2011, China added roughly two 600-megawatt coal plants a week, for 7 straight years.

And according to U.S. government projections, China will add yet another U.S. worth of coal plants over the next 10 years, or the equivalent of a new 600-megawatt plant every 10 days for 10 years."

China, and other countries (Chile, S. Africa) have a vested interest in supplying the "rare earths", platinum and lithium that any global turn to renewables will entail:
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/a_scarcity_of_rare_metals_is_hindering_gree...
"The move toward new and better technologies — from smart phones to electric cars — means an ever-increasing demand for exotic metals that are scarce thanks to both geology and politics. Thin, cheap solar panels need tellurium, which makes up a scant 0.0000001 percent of the earth’s crust, making it three times rarer than gold. High-performance batteries need lithium, which is only easily extracted from briny pools in the Andes. In 2011, the average price of 'rare earth' metals shot up by as much as 750 percent. Platinum, needed as a catalyst in fuel cells that turn hydrogen into energy, comes almost exclusively from South Africa."

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/05/climate-change-coal-power-asia-world-bank-disaster

"In the US, coal use is in sharp decline – and the country’s biggest companies are in bankruptcy. But there is still strong demand for coal in south Asia and east Asia, where tens of millions still have no access to electricity.

Donald Trump's election would derail Paris climate deal, warns its architect Read more

On their own, China, India, Indonesia and Vietnam account for three-quarters of new coal-fired power plants expected to be built around the world in the next five years. In India alone about 300 million people live without access to electricity.

“If Vietnam goes forward with 40GW of coal, if the entire region implements the coal-based plans right now, I think we are finished,” Kim told a two-day gathering of government and corporate leaders in Washington, in a departure from his prepared remarks.

“That would spell disaster for us and our planet.”

Putting coal-fired plants on hold – permanently – and making it affordable and practical for countries to replace fossil fuels with clean sources of energy such as wind and solar was the prime focus of the two-day meeting, and the bank’s new mission.

The [World] bank said last month it would devote 28% of its spending to climate change projects."

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am

Part of the fault lies with the countries that export coal to them. The USA and Austrailia being the major sources. Do not forget that we still burn a lot of coal and have been replacing a lot of it with nutural gas that also puts out CO2.

Legend
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Nov. 27, 2012 6:46 am

The point is that these countries, with massive populations without power, aren't going to sit and wait for some breakthrough (solar, nuclear or whatever) to bring power to their people. U.S. coal exports are down about 24% from 2014 to 2015. To be continued ...

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am

Some more "Inconvienient Truth" for Al Gore: Source: An Inconvenient Truth, by Al Gore, p.116-7 May 26, 2006

"Unbelievable tragedies have been unfolding in the part of Africa near Lake Chad, where genocidal murders have become commonplace in the region of Darfur. The region-wide drought has contributed to the famine conditions that put millions at risk. A little discussed contributing factor to the famine and genocide is the disappearance of Lake Chad.

Just 40 years ago Lake Chad was as large as Lake Erie--formerly the 6th largest lake in the world. But now due to declining rainfall and ever-intensifying human use, it has shrunk to 1/20th of its original size. The lake’s dissipation has led to collapsing fisheries and crops.

While Lake Chad withered, intense drought set the stage for the violence that erupted in neighboring Darfur, a war-torn region of Sudan.

The more we understand about climate change, the more it looks as if we may be the real culprit--the US emits 1/4 of the world’s greenhouse gases. We helped manufacture the suffering in Africa, and we have a moral obligation to try to fix it"

No we didn't. People have known that Lake Chad was diminishing since at least the late 1800's. WE had nothing to do with it:

"Altogether France has enough to occupy her in Central Africa for some time to come: and even when the long task is finished, the conquered regions are not likely to be of great value. They include the desert of the Great Sahara and wide expanses of equally profitless scrub or marsh. Only one important river, the Shari, flows through them, and never reaches the sea: and even Lake Chad, into which the Shari flows, appears to be leaking through some subterranean exit, and is rapidly changing from a lake into an immense swamp."

Winston Churchill: The River War: An Account of the Reconquest of the Sudan , 1899

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mjolnir
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If Americans Die in a Pandemic - Blame the GOP

Thom plus logo As a possible pandemic looms on the horizon, the United States is the only developed nation in the world without a national healthcare system. Medicare For All is not just about saving as much as half of all of our half healthcare dollars, it's also about national security.
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