SCOTUS vetos Paris agreement

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5 of the justices made clear the Koch Brothers were not invited to Paris so any agreement is null and void. Scalia then died so now only 4 justices are threatened with the petrol mafia. A new one that knows science might get delayed until the court can give the presidency to Cruz. He knows man was created 5000 years ago from mud and the first mouth to mouth. Ben Carson might get appointed too, he's a creationist. The pyramids were just to keep the Egyptian's rice dry. He has the devil in his story too, like Scalia. Scalia said he was Wylie ...I think he meant the coyote. Think of all those cells with his image. If muslims think the devil is Wylie too, somebody is in trouble.

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douglaslee
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GOP hypocrites aren't news. The family values team sides with profits, that's not news. Making kids sick and aborting pre-babies with pollution is typical GOP. Not news.

Obama to sign Paris climate pact despite SCOTUS stay
The Obama administration will officially sign last year’s international climate change pact despite its central policy being put on ice by the Supreme Court.

Who supported this order? Who opposed it?
At least 27 states and dozens of corporations and industry groups had requested the stay, seeking to block the E.P.A. from influencing the energy grids within the states. But 18 states opposed the request for the stay, saying that the delay would compound the harm from climate change, like more severe storms, wildfires and droughts.

David Doniger, director of the climate and clean air program at the Natural Resources Defense Council, said he is “confident the courts will ultimately uphold the Clean Power Plan on its merits. The electricity sector has embarked on an unstoppable shift from its high-pollution, dirty-fueled past to a safer, cleaner-powered future, and the stay cannot reverse that trend. Nor can it dampen the overwhelming public support for action on climate change and clean energy.”

The four liberal justices on the court — Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elana Kagan — dissented from the order.

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DdC
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Mar. 22, 2012 12:39 am

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

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Mauiman2
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Jul. 27, 2012 6:24 am
Quote Mauiman2:

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

The idea that we may actually need to plan degrowth rather than wait for the biosphere to do it for us.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

The idea that we may actually need to plan degrowth rather than wait for the biosphere to do it for us.

So how do you plan on feeding everyone? World's population in 2010 was 7 billion. Projected population in 2050, 9.6 billion. How does degrowth fit into that equation? Btw, the world's population in 1920 was about 2 billion. That's the bottom line problem here, too many people.

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Mauiman2
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Jul. 27, 2012 6:24 am
Quote Mauiman2:
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

The idea that we may actually need to plan degrowth rather than wait for the biosphere to do it for us.

So how do you plan on feeding everyone? World's population in 2010 was 7 billion. Projected population in 2050, 9.6 billion. How does degrowth fit into that equation? Btw, the world's population in 1920 was about 2 billion. That's the bottom line problem here, too many people.

How do you? With dying oceans, depleting topsoils, pumped out aquifers, poisoned rivers, clear cut forests etc. etc....

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

"wild onions"-"Allium canadense"
"Ramps"-"Allium tricoccum"
"Chickweed"-"Stellaria media"
"Henbit"-"Lamium amplexicaule"
"Purple 'Dead' Nettle"-"Lamium purpureum"
"Dandelion (blossoms)"-"Taraxacum officinale"
I had a salad today containing the above ingredients, none of which are bought or even cultivated. I could have added acorns, hicans, hickory nut 'milk' for a beverage, pecans, or black walnuts from my stored provisions for protein and fat; I could have dug some of my perennial "Apios americana"-"Groundnut" tubers from the thawed ground for carbs. I could have added dehydrated persimmons or mulberries for fiber, carbs and a touch of sweetness.
This only touches the surface of what is available here in zone 6b Ky far from semi-tropical Florida or paradisiacal Cali and in 3 wks. the list will double or triple, all of it free for the gathering.
Foraging is location specific of course and if you live in a desert and/or are dirt poor sitting on a stoop in a city your options are negligible. My point is that food, in and of itself, is not a limiting factor in population growth on a global basis - not yet at least.
The problem is that our species, as a whole, eats a constrained palette of approx. 25 crops out of at least 3-4 K available, most of which are consigned to 'famine' status.
(FAOSTAT) Year 2012 in M (million metric tons)
1. Sugarcane 1,800 M
2. Maize 885 M
3. Rice 723 M
4. Wheat 701 M
5. Potatoes 373 M
6. Assorted Veggies 269 M
7. Soybeans 262 M
8. Cassava 256 M

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am

Do you occasionally pick off a possum too?

The lowest caste in India, the untouchables, are tasked with rodent control. Hindus don't eat animal flesh, but the untouchables BBQ rat ribs, and legs all the time.

With cloning and proven protein sources grown in lab, some non-meat food will make it to market some day. People Chow as a brand needs a little work. Soylent Green was popular. Rodents may become more acceptable as a food source one day. Then insects will be on the menu.

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douglaslee
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Quote douglaslee:

Do you occasionally pick off a possum too?...

Nope, would if I were hungry enough though. Do you eat your hamsters? Fried squirrel is my favored food from the family Sciuridae.

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mjolnir
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Mar. 3, 2011 11:42 am

Rabbits I eat, rodents no. I see some circles are trying to conflate the two, but rabbits are sold commercially over here, and rats will never be. Prairie dogs might be worth a try, they live in burrows like rabbits but are still rodents.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

The idea that we may actually need to plan degrowth rather than wait for the biosphere to do it for us.

So how do you plan on feeding everyone? World's population in 2010 was 7 billion. Projected population in 2050, 9.6 billion. How does degrowth fit into that equation? Btw, the world's population in 1920 was about 2 billion. That's the bottom line problem here, too many people.

How do you? With dying oceans, depleting topsoils, pumped out aquifers, poisoned rivers, clear cut forests etc. etc....

Beats the heel out of me. But you don't do it by imposing severe environmental restrictions that have little to no actual effect on the environment. And 0.1 degrees C is no impact at all.

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Mauiman2
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Jul. 27, 2012 6:24 am
Quote Mauiman2:
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:
Quote .ren:
Quote Mauiman2:

OK all you supporters of the Paris agreement, explain this one to me. According to Joe Biden, we need to do this becuase it will decrease the average world's temperature by 0.1 degrees C. 0.1C, are you kidding me!?!?!?!?! We are actually discussing a scheme that will put a severe crimp on the world's economy to lower the temperature 0.1C? Really!

What am I missing here?

The idea that we may actually need to plan degrowth rather than wait for the biosphere to do it for us.

So how do you plan on feeding everyone? World's population in 2010 was 7 billion. Projected population in 2050, 9.6 billion. How does degrowth fit into that equation? Btw, the world's population in 1920 was about 2 billion. That's the bottom line problem here, too many people.

How do you? With dying oceans, depleting topsoils, pumped out aquifers, poisoned rivers, clear cut forests etc. etc....

Beats the heel out of me. But you don't do it by imposing severe environmental restrictions that have little to no actual effect on the environment. And 0.1 degrees C is no impact at all.

I think those people in Paris are missing the idea of planned degrowth as well.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

Enough is Enough is degrowth, but not shrinkage, just an entry on an economic mobius strip. Mobius is infinite, but not linear so not increasing and expanding. Infinite economic cycles are possible. A tiny example might be Cuba in a way. 50 years of a no growth closed resource economy deserves attention.

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douglaslee
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Degrowth is nonsense. Just some sort of green religious nonsensical ill-defined concept. The video "Enough is Enough" is talking about growth measured by GDP as a poor reflection of a nation's health & happiness, I totally agree with that. However there is a strong correlation between GDP growth and quality of life measured by basic parameters like health care, education, housing, life expectancy, child welfare & survival. So it is not meaningless but it certainly not an absolute measure by any stretch of the imagination.

As for Cuba, it is an interesting experiment in an alternative socioeconomic system, and I'm all in favor of those experiments. It is the Globalists - the Banksters who want to force all nation states to succumb to some supra-national corporate authority and embrace a cookie-cutter ultra-capitalist model of economic development.

But Cuba is hardly a closed economy or a "degrowth" model. 80% of their energy consumption comes from non-renewable mostly imported oil. And their total electricity generation is increasing rather rapidly. And the portion of their energy supply that is renewable is rapidly declining:

https://www.iea.org/stats/WebGraphs/cuba5.pdf

https://www.iea.org/stats/WebGraphs/cuba2.pdf

People here are bandying about this Degrowth label but nobody is willing to define it or actually describe in detail WTF they are talking about. Which really just makes the topic worthless nonsense.

Reasonable discussion:

1) Sustainable economic system

2) Non-carbon energy supply

3) Health not wealth

4) Fair redistribution of wealth within a nation

5) Sustainable agriculture

6) Low environmental impact of resource exploitation

7) Rational use of water resources

8) A rational non-debt based monetary system

9) A productive full employment local based economic policy

10) Redeveloping local economic systems rather than the current ultra-rich elitist religion of Globalist Economics, of which Hillary, Bill & Obama are fervent supporters

These are realistic down-to-earth issues that we can sink our teeth into and solve by rational government policies. Not wacky pie-in-the-sky meaningless drivel about unattainable religious concepts like "degrowth".

Instant-RunOff-...
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Jun. 17, 2015 11:41 am

More degrowth results

Environmental Sustainability Index

All of the areas above are part of a sustainability index and are targets within the degrowth community that have seen change. Degrowth might be geographically dependant. Some countries have more natural resources and just have to keep the raping multinationals and IMF out.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Degrowth as instant-runoff just explained it, he/she and Mark Levin.

Human Society Index-2014/top10-bottom10/ measures 3 basics, Human wellbeing, environment well being, and economic well being. The US can't make any of the top 10s, but missed the bottom 10s, too, Hallelujah!

sustainability-tour

Cuba's GDP per capita was $2000 in 1959. In 1970 it was $2000, huge growth. In 1995 it was $2000, how I couldn't see it was always pro-growth stumps me.

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2009/0309pepper. shows some measures used to identify a successful country/culture/society

Indeed, Cuba compares favorably to the United States on a number of basic social factors:

  • Housing: There is virtually no homelessness in Cuba. Thanks to the 1960 Urban Reform law, 85% of Cubans own their own homes and pay no property taxes or interest on their mortgages. Mortgage payments can’t exceed 10% of the combined household income.
  • Employment: Cuba’s unemployment rate is only 1.8% according to CIA data, compared with 7.6% (and rising) in the United States. One factor contributing to Cuba’s low unemployment is undoubtedly the 350,000 jobs that have been recently created by the burgeoning sustainable urban agriculture program, one of the most successful in the world, according to U.S.-based economist Sinan Koont.
  • Literacy: The adult literacy rate in Cuba (99.8%) is higher than the United States’ rate (97%), according to the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).
  • Infant mortality: Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate (4.7 per 1000 live births) than the United States’ (6.0).
  • Prisons: Cuba even does better on prisons. Its rate of incarceration—estimated at around 487 per 100,000 by the UNDP—is among the highest in the world, yet it is considerably lower than the U.S. rate of 738 per 100,000. Now that the number of political prisoners Cuba locks up is in decline, according to a February Associated Press news release, there is even less justification for the blockade.
Now that I see Cuba was always a growth economy, that explains their success.
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douglaslee
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Quote douglaslee:

Degrowth as instant-runoff just explained it, he/she and Mark Levin.

Amusing. Nobody beats douglaslee when it comes to finding this stuff.

Mark Levin's rant rises to a shrill crescendo at 3:00 minutes into the video as he shrieks: "I am telling you that the environmental movement is a communist movement, and I've been saying it for years. Now what I've done is I've delved much deeper into this degrowth movement which we have now imported into the United States."

Recognizing human behavioral and social limitations within the biosphere of the planet is, after all, not a reasonable look at what humans are doing to the planet. It's not an attempt at dialog on these issues, in part now encouraged by the same scientific methodology that makes all this technologically-driven growth possible. No, not that at all. It's something far more insidious and Levin, the "expert" has revealed it. Thank you Mark! You're a savior!

Now we know. The concept of degrowth is not a reasonable attempt to come to grips with a lemming-like overshoot of the carrying capacity of the earth carried on with a techno-ideological religious fervor that relies on an Invisible Hand working behind the scenes, modifying the human drive of self interest. Humans need not think for themselves, They can trust Hand to manage human waste and other mindlessly destructive efforts destroying the key elements of the biosphere. It, all knowing but invisible, will take care of all of nature and the universe as well, allowing humans to grow as they please within its limitations, should there actually be any.

'Wake up you minions!' says technocrats like Levin. Notice that you might be swayed from your Invisible Hand-given right to jobs working in the industrial techno organizations and unfettered consumption by these pinko stinkos! They're at it again! (Where's Joseph McCarthy when we need him?)

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

Douglaslee claims:

"..Cuba's GDP per capita was $2000 in 1959. In 1970 it was $2000, huge growth. In 1995 it was $2000..."

So first you claimed Degrowth was not about GDP and now you are claiming it is all about GDP. Which is it?

And your numbers are nonsense. Let's get real. Cuba's GDP rose from $1778 in 1970 to $3541 in 1985 and dropped to $2198 in 1993 after the collapse of the Soviet Union destroyed their biggest trading partner. Since then it has steadily risen (i.e. GROWTH) until 2010 (my latest data) to $4495 - that's in inflation adjusted US$. Looks pretty Growthy to me.

And even more apparent in PPP (purchasing-power-parity) inflation adjusted $9001 in 1993 to $20,700 in 2014. Looks even more Growthy, 230% higher real income in 21 yrs. Combined with an almost doubling of Electricity consumption in that same period, that's the best indicator of industrialization.

And Cuba has been stifled by the US imposed trade embargo. Recent negotiations to end the embargo and their government and people are very eager for even faster growth.

So once again, just as for Bolivia, I have shown your showcase examples are in fact just the opposite of what your Degrowth nonsense claims. In fact people in developing countries are eager for growth and energy & resource consumption in these nations is rapidly increasing. Now that doesn't mean Cuba hasn't done great in social metrics, which has nothing whatsoever to do with your Degrowth hogwash. You guys have the audacity to be claiming ownership on economic, political & social policies that have been advocated by and invented by others - not Degrowthers.

Instant-RunOff-...
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Jun. 17, 2015 11:41 am

.Ren & Douglaslee claim:

"...Degrowth as instant-runoff just explained it, he/she and Mark Levin..."

True blue religious crackpots these Degrowthers. Very reminiscent of Christian Fundamentalists who claim that having to accept basic LGBT human rights is a violent assault on their religious freedom. Similarily Degrowthers declare anyone who questions the effectiveness and logic of their dogma or religious tenants has got to be a burn-baby-burn, drill-baby-drill, black sky industrialist, right wing republican and an ultra-capitalist, like your Mark Levin.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if anything I fit into the category of the practical, rational environmentalist. That is Real Environmentalists who advocate realistic & practical solutions to our environmental, social & economic issues. Not wacky, pipe dream fantasies, which the world's #1 climatologist, James Hansen, calls akin to believing in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

Non-Degrowthers who have long advocated for the environment, far, far more effectively than your crackpot compadres:

James Hansen

James Lovelock

George Monbiot

Mark Lynas

Stewart Brand

Barry Brook

Linus Blomqvist

John Droz, Jr.

Robert Stone

Roger Pielke, Jr.

Michael Shellenberger

To name a few.

Instant-RunOff-...
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Jun. 17, 2015 11:41 am

You're an elitist with a purity test. Why do you care HOW the same goals you and they want are achieved, IF said results are achieved? Excluding highly motivated sustainability science practitioners seems ignorant when the severity of the pending disaster warrants 'All hands on deck'.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

No I'm the exact opposite of an elitist and there is no purity test. In fact that mostly describes your Degrowthers. The problem is there is a whole comaraderie of Greenie religious types, not just Degrowthers, that advocate for impractical, fanciful, non-solutions, and non-solutions are really just another way to preserve the status quo of burn-baby-burn. And that is exactly why these pie-in-the-sky types are heavily funded by the ruling elites, they know damn well that these airheads are ensuring their cruel & destructive hegemony will continue for the forseeable future.

Instant-RunOff-...
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Jun. 17, 2015 11:41 am

One of MY paths in addressing the looming disaster is based on coalition construction:

Do you want to work with complex sustainability challenges (e.g., climate change, food security, biodiversity loss) from local to global levels. Then the LUMES programme is what you are looking for. Building on the knowledge and experience students already possess, emphasis is placed on understanding present societal development patterns and the environmental problems they create, as well as approaches for formulating strategies for future sustainable pathways. LUMES does not concentrate on training practitioners; the foundation of the programme is rather an interdisciplinary and holistic perspective for comprehending the interactions between social, economic, and environmental systems across a variety of spatial and temporal scales.

Unique programme qualities

The LUMES programme is set in a unique interdisciplinary and international educational milieu, creating a setting that challenges students to broaden personal outlooks and sharpen critical thinking skills. Courses are taught in English by individuals from both the human and natural sciences with the aims of creating graduates that are able to grasp, analyse and formulate governance strategies for complex sustainability challenges. In addition, interpersonal and academic skills are developed through strong emphasis on group work, presentations and academic writing.

Since the programme started in 1997, LUMES has had over 600 students from roughly 100 countries, with a graduation rate exceeding 90 per cent.

Career prospects

Industries, governments, academics, and communities are recognising the significance of addressing complex social, environmental, and economic problems holistically. As such, the interdisciplinary training, gained through the programme, opens employment opportunities for a wide array of career paths in various private sector, governmental and non-governmental, and academic settings.

Note: It isn't sufficient to only apply via universityadmissions.se. You must also complement your application with the additional application documents found on the Lumes homepage.

More information can be found at http://www.lumes.lu.se/

Sustainability science includes civics to implement solutions chosen by the coalition. A carbon tax exempts trade in services. That's method Cuba engaged in with Venezuela. We give you doctors and needed medical care duty free, in exchange for energy needs (in the future subject to a carbon tax).

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douglaslee
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http://www.aces.su.se/news/paris-landmark-treaty-is-an-opportunity-for-profound-change The majority of the signatories have functioning democratic systems in their home countries.

Managing climate change is managing peace. The necessary change in our mindsets requires a change in the way we think and feel about our role as part of our environment. That is why science, technology, arts and humanities are equally necessary in truly achieving the goals of the historical agreement reached in Paris.
It takes a coalition of disparate disciplines. The fabric of society is comprised of many threads, some for stability, some for endurance, some for beauty, but all part of the weave.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Tainter_Joseph_The_Collapse_of_Complex_Societies.pdf was referenced by one of the speakers on degrowth, definition: Controlled contraction of economy to achieve sustainability.

The majority of unsustainability is overproduction, aka waste, and poor waste management. Reducing the wasteful activities increases sustainability. Taxing waste and inefficiencies reduces waste and increases sustainability. Identifying true costs allows better waste management and increased sustainability, carbon taxes are meant to charge true costs which prompt innovation to reduce said costs, and associated waste, thus increasing sustainability.

What if< economic actvity was switched to services, which have no carbon tax and are thus cheaper? Services are medical treatment, repair services (like Cuba depnded on for the maintenance of their '50s era auto fleet), recycle services, entertainment (though rush should face a carbon tax, he's such a gas bag)

If pricing waste causes a contraction, or slowing, or degrowth, why is that bad? Innovations to reduce waste (aka carbon) might spawn growth, but in the field of innovation, or neutral growth. What's wrong with that?

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Thanks for finding and sharing that pdf version of Tainter's tome. I have my 1988 edition I've referenced many times since I purchased it in 1989, but it's getting worn. Plus it's wonderful to have copy and paste access to it.

Collapse is not a trivial issue to be scorned and denigrated, though of course there are those conspiracy oriented who may take it in the same direction as extremists who now see communists hiding under the bed again in the environmental movement. It's one that many scholars take seriously. Tainter's exploration of collapse of societies through history has become a classic in universities and still rates a very high price tag (Amazon).

His theory of collapse is referenced by many others on that topic, including the much more popular and well known Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, by Jared Diamond.

I'm going to take the luxury of quoting from Tainter's introduction:

Quote Joseph Tainter:

Collapse in history

The fall of the Roman Empire is, in the West, the most widely known instance of collapse, the one which comes most readily to popular thought. Yet it is only one case, if a particularly dramatic one, of a fairly common process. Collapse is a recurrent feature of human societies, and indeed it is this fact that makes it worthwhile to explore a general explanation. The following pages give a brief overview of some cases of collapse. This overview is intended to illustrate common elements to the phenomenon, and also to portray the range of societies that are susceptible. In accord with the discussion of the previous section, the reader will find in the following pages a spectrum of societies from simple to powerful and complex. The discussion is arranged by major geographical areas, and then chronologically. The picture that emerges is of a process recurrent in history and prehistory, and global in its distribution.

This is by no means a complete list. Further cases were no longer sought when it seemed that redundancy would result. There have been, in addition, no doubt many hundreds or thousands of collapses among centralized societies that were not organized at a sufficient level of complexity to produce written records. Some of these are known archaeologically, but probably only a small minority. To the extent that collapse is a general process, such cases are fully pertinent to understanding it, and should be studied whenever found.

I think it's safe to posit that homo sapiens have a unique capacity to see their own species and its social behaviors in retrospective, thus the potential to evaluate what they are doing at present and discuss alternatives to the directions their complexity takes in a... well, the word "civil" combined with "manner" comes to mind, but given the barbaric track record of what we call civilization in the past few centuries, that term may be taken in ways that may not be what I would mean. But I do not mean apoplectic hysteria, nor ongoing ad hominem denigration of others in the a dialog when I say "civil manner."

Were the Paris Talks an attempt to take into account the work that scholars like Tainter have produced? I'm not asking if they have accomplished any thorough task of preventing collapse, I'm merely asking if its fair to say that this current civilization is, as Diamond puts it, attempting to choose to succeed? When societies get this organizationally, and pervasively complex, we as individuals are inevitably in the position of somewhat helplessly going along for the ride to some extent. But at least we can share in the conversation that's taking place on many levels. This is going to involve what Saul has so eloquently written about, doubt. Here are a few words from his entry on Doubt in his Doubter's Companion:

Quote John Ralston Saul, The Doubter's Companion: A Dictionary of Aggressive Common Sense, 1994, 109-110.:

Doubt is thus the space between reality and the applications of an idea. It ought to be given over to the weighing of experience, intuition, creativity, ethics, common sense, reason and, of course, knowledge, in balanced consideration of what is to be done. The longer this stage lasts the more we take advantage of our intelligence.

Perhaps this is why elites move so quickly to limit doubt and consideration. Those who gain power almost automatically seek to leap from reality to solution, from abstraction to application, from ideology to methodology. This is as true of contemporary rational society as it was of those dominated by religion or monarchies. Deliberation is mocked as weakness. Consideration is rushed through, if possible eliminated. The effect is to reduce the intelligence of the citizenry to received wisdom, unconscious or secretive procedures, and mechanistic actions.

Healthy democracies embrace doubt as a leisurely pleasure, and so prosper. Sick democracies are obsessed by answers and management and so lose their reason for existence. But, above all, doubt is the only activity which actively makes use of the human particularity.

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.ren
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Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

The key words- Healthy Democracies. Half of the country is authoritarian and loves 'totalitarian freedom' which is freedom to impose their own agenda. They looked on in envy at Pinochet's and Franco's freedoms. IMF and WTO get to play dictator as do the vulture capitalists.

The west coast culture/society will not die when the US fails and collapses, they will get more freedom. There are packets of successful democracy-lites in some of the blue states, and pseudo-fascists in TX and KS. There will never be a United States again, but a confrontational states of America will be around continually annoying the globe, driving the world crazy.

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douglaslee
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Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Quote douglaslee:

The key words- Healthy Democracies. Half of the country is authoritarian and loves 'totalitarian freedom' which is freedom to impose their own agenda. They looked on in envy at Pinochet's and Franco's freedoms. IMF and WTO get to play dictator as do the vulture capitalists.

The west coast culture/society will not die when the US fails and collapses, they will get more freedom. There are packets of successful democracy-lites in some of the blue states, and pseudo-fascists in TX and KS. There will never be a United States again, but a confrontational states of America will be around continually annoying the globe, driving the world crazy.

My own posting here at Thom's and other sites has evolved over the years. I find it a worthy challenge to have a civil discussion, and its a challenge I have tried to answer over and over by not getting sucked into their little ponds where they splash their waves of vitriol all over. Posters of that sort follow a distinct pattern where they will come on the scene and try to make the issue a personal matter rather than something to discuss in objective and reasonable terms. And of course it's quite human that we are not ever totally objective and rational, we are much more than that, so therefore we can also be sucked into their little bathtubs of splashing foaming ego attacks back and forth, if we are not attentive to what we do; so that's truly a challenge to embrace.... being attentive. Perhaps the thing to do is step out and give them a rubber ducky to help calm them.

I also see a similar scenario to the one you've expressed where there seems to now be a united effort on the part of some to impose an agenda. And, from my studies of the authoritarian personality, it does seem the term 'authoritarian' applies to that effort, and we can go even further with this group behavior and relate it to past authoritarian movements. But I happily leave that up to Antifascist. He seems to love it. You can also see a peculiar aspect of that when someone is accusing another, who is merely trying to have a reasonable, civil discussion on a matter, of imposing an agenda rather than simply trying to discuss. The term in psychology for that inability to fail to employ empathy and see beyond one's own internal mental state is "projection."

You mentioned Rush. I presume you mean Rush Limbaugh.

Interesting associations with your earlier link. Did you know that Mark Levin is President of The Landmark Legal Foundation? Well, here's the interesting sort of six degrees from center parlor game connection, center being Rush Limbaugh in this case, not Kevin Bacon:

Quote The Landmark Legal Foundation:

Board of Directors: Roy Innis (Congress of Racial Equality), Walter Williams (CATO Institute, Heritage Foundation), Edwin Meese III, (Former Attorney General), WM. Bradford Reynolds (Federalist Society), Steve A. Matthews, Gary L. McDowell, Lawrence F. Davenport, John Richardson, Rush Limbaugh

------>

Activities

  • In February 2007, LLF nominated right-wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh for the Nobel Peace Prize, calling him the "foremost advocate for freedom and democracy in the world today." Limbaugh serves as an unpaid member of Landmark's Board of Advisors.

So, if you are looking for one of the possible advocates for enhancing this authoritarian divisiveness, and you are looking for irony... there you have it: Hate radio talk show host extraordinaire nominated for The Nobel Peace Prize.

Sometimes I think a writer from the Onion makes some of this stuff up.

.ren's picture
.ren
Joined:
Apr. 1, 2010 6:50 am

I did a double take if not a triple take and jaw dropping moment with a complete brain freeze until I could process the nomination. I think it proves how far gone they are.

I had just seen two prosperity gospel church pastors explaining their need for private jets and how god told them to get private jets. Then because they are in these jets they are closer to god once at cruising altitude, and the conversations are uninterrupted whereas on commercial planes in long tubes with the deamons (sic) they would be impeded from doing god's work. They believe their own bullshit too. "The annointing we do on the private jet could not be done in the tube with the demeons (sic, their spelling). 47% of the country are creationists and believe in a 5000 year old earth. (and angels, the devil, dinosaurs are a hoax, etc...)

from your quote:

Doubt is thus the space between reality and the applications of an idea. It ought to be given over to the weighing of experience, intuition, creativity, ethics, common sense, reason and, of course, knowledge, in balanced consideration of what is to be done. The longer this stage lasts the more we take advantage of our intelligence.
I also include externalities not mentioned, but likely to occur or be effected. Likely outcome if no action taken. Time frame for correction or reversal if unexpected negative consequences result. (then are these negatives an anomaly and will soon seize or will they continue but not expand, or continue and expand). I write this stuff out with bubble diagrams too, unlikely venn diagram partners, and known venn partners, all of which assist me in presenting my solution and justifying it.

I taught both my daughters some of this, but ultimately to not be afraid of a decision because any problems that arise are easily dealt with by the same process just mentioned and the emboldened words above being the essence of intelligence. They do not lack confidence and are not easily manipulated. "Any questions?" is a signature closing for me with them, too.

One other thing, Reason's entry in the Doubter's companion. "It's central and essential to civilization, but no one knows what it is".

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Authoritarians are mentioned by this guy, so I think he agrees with us. I just found this btw.

"Trump says what we think" "Tells it like it is" "Speaks his mind" yada yada... Maher does the same thing @00:20 (sec)+/- in his welcome to Steinem and Brockavich​

douglaslee's picture
douglaslee
Joined:
Jul. 31, 2007 3:01 pm

We Know How Far Trump Will Go - How Far Will Republicans Go?

Thom plus logo Colonel Vindman's testimony pretty much proves that Trump was trying to shake down Ukraine for information on Biden, and that the Republicans are doing everything they can to cover up this extortion attempt.
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