Quite a debate has been raging within the TH community. The debate has been so complicated, powerful and emotional that a second thread was opened. It seems in some cases otherwise allies became adversaries, language deteriorated, context was lost. At the risk of muddying the waters further, I offer a sumation and an alternative to both threads. Here's hoping third time's a charm.

To get to the heart of all written, it seems that most agree that rape is a horror, and above all else it is a human tradgedy. Reguardless of race, gender, cast, age, anyone can become a victim, though realistically an individual's chances are greater or lesser depending on any number of variables. A rape culture may emerge within a variety of specific constucts or contexts, anytime, anywhere, and the motivation for the emergence of a rape culture and how it plays out may vary.

Rape is an act of domination, a form of violence, it is a subset of ALL violence. Violence is a symptom of an IMBALANCE of POWER. An imbalance of power can manifest in any number of ways- within an interpersonal relationship, within institutions, within cultures, within entire societies. Reguardless of any number of variables, children of either gender, or of indeterminate gender are universally recognized as the most vulnerable group. Broadly, and arguably, adult woman are the second most vulnerable group universally.

Rape, like war, has been around since the beginning of time. Like war, rape is unlikely to vanish anytime soon, which is not to say that we approve of, ignore, diminish or excuse either as fact, the fact that both are real and exist.

Rape is a global issue, it is a human issue, and at the macro and the micro we should all support and defend the rights and dignity of all human beings anywhere and everywhere, especially the most vulnerable among us all. The powerful must be held accountable for their moral obligation to the less powerful, and the less powerful should alway be supported in seeking empowerment.

At the risk of criticism, I believe the concept of a rape culture extends beyond the human experience, and includes nature, the planet itself. We are all, ALL suffering with the effects of global climate change, a direct result of the unrestrained actions by the powerful. The planet is vulnerable and we must expand our understanding of what is violation, what is violence, what is rape, to include all living things, not only our human brothers and sisters. Further still, we must defend the inanimate and the irreplaceable, our mointaintops, our water, our air, our survival.

We, ourselves, our planet it out of balance. Violence is everywhere and like a mythical shapeshifter it takes many forms. Rape of women by men is just one form. To stop that particular form of violence, we must be mindful of all forms of violence, aknowledge all forms of violence and denounce all forms of violence.

Feminist activists, civil-rights activists, gay rights activists, anti-war activists, environmental activists, animal rights activists, all of us, when become adversaries instead of allies, we lose the plot. We become like the five men and the elephant, one describing the tail, one descibing the ear, and so on but fail to recognize that they are all experiencing and describing the same creature, the elephant.

The ELEPHANT in our global room is IMBALANCE of POWER. Restore balance, restore peace, peace for ALL.


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 42 weeks ago

I don't get those Thai ads...I don't get any ads at all. I use NoScript addon to my Mozilla Firefox browser and it blocks all of those ads. Simple! I don't want to see ads at all so I took a very simple measure to block them. I don't crusade anyone to prevent other people from seeing them because I think it will corrupt their minds. But some people do..because their "religion" or "beliefs" tells them to proselytize everyone else in order to save the world from what they believe is evil. I think that it has already been established that those who control this blog don't really have any control over the ads that get displayed. People usually get ads tailored to the kinds of web sites they, or whoever has used your computer... have gone to....even if only once.

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 42 weeks ago

I tried days ago, here, to offer a competing opinion. I was shouted down elsewhere, as were many others. Way of the world.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 42 weeks ago

It really is futile to posit competing opinions to people who are so demanding that everyone else has to completely agree with them in every little detail or suffer their ire and name calling. Fundamentalists seem to be that way. And when they began saying that only people from the US have the exclusive right to an opinion on the subject it sounded very typical of what myopic and xenophobic people might say, or at least infer: "We're Americans and we are exceptional, you foreigners don't count!"

By the way, I thought that you had made some very good points that only incited their ire even more.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 4 years 42 weeks ago

Palindromedary, you seem to love accusing others of fundamentalism. But anyone who reads past posts of yours on the subject of religion, and/or theism, will see a classic example of fundamentalist, my-way-or-the-highway rhetoric. And this makes you a hypocrite. - AIW

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 42 weeks ago


Thank you for your thoughtful commentary. That took courage because it looks like you"re up next for the firing squad.. Also, I left a response at your blog/question. I too was dismayed and confused to see the "alternate" thread removed.

BTW, do the comments directed toward you constitute an un-provoked attack? Fine line I suppose. Plausible deniability.

Take care,


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 42 weeks ago

michellekovalik: Yes, I read your response...thank you! I don't know how to answer that question without being provocative. (not to you, of course). ;-}

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 4 years 42 weeks ago
Quote Palindromedary:Fundamentalists seem to be that way. And when they began saying that only people from the US have the exclusive right to an opinion on the subject it sounded very typical of what myopic and xenophobic people might say, or at least infer: "We're Americans and we are exceptional, you foreigners don't count!"

Palindromedary ~ I think you are mistaken my friend. Foreigners have every right to comment on such topics. The same right we do. However, it is the Sociologist, not the Fundamentalist who rules the discussion on "culture" of any kind. Any Russian is perfectly qualified to discuss the topic of rape as it pertains to culture--Russian culture. Only an American has the background to effectively discuss rape as it applies to American culture. You see both people are familiar with what rape is; however, all people are only tied to and naturally familiar with the culture they are born and raised into. Even a trip as an adult, lengthy stay, or even permanent residence does not give someone the insight into another culture that they have in their own. People always cling to and proceed from their birth culture. It is a basic trait in all animals. It is why a feral cat cannot be domesticated; and, a domesticated cat cannot learn to live in the wild.

You spent a long time in Saudi Arabia. Can you explain to me exactly how and why Islam affects the reason you would or would not marry someone? How about elaborating on any way you would find distasteful about dressing your kid to go to school, or the temple? How are you supposed to feel when someone ignores you in public? I imagine everyone probably ignored you; yet, only a cultural member would know the greetings ritual for every possible public circumstance. You probably never even had a clue if anyone didn't like you; or, were really pissed off at you. Is it acceptable to burp at a dinner table; and, if you do, what--if anything--do you say? Not that you would ever do such a thing in another country; which, is probably why you never learned the answer. I could go on, but I think you might be starting to get my drift.

In the societies in question no woman dresses sexy. There, it is considered Taboo. That sentiment is ingrained, unspoken, and runs very deep into cultural mores. That means that no respectable woman would even consider it for any reason. Seeing such behavior is virtually unknown. How do you comment fairly on something that is virtually unknown to you? That is the custom there. Here, more than 75% of woman dress in sexy ways; and, it is a perfectly acceptable thing to do for multiple reasons and in multiple situations. That little social difference makes any opinion on the subject only relevant for the culture it comes from. Certainly, in Russia, there are a completely different reasons that a girl would dress that way--not one of them innocent. Here, there are many innocent reasons--from climate and exercise, to fashion and romance. Here, even formal and church affairs can warrant sexy attire. No one blinks twice. All of the reasons completely acceptable and completely innocent.

That is just one example of the cultural bias that disqualifies foreigners from commenting on our culture. It does not disqualifying them from commenting on the topic in reference to their own culture though. They are the only ones on this forum uniquely qualified to do that. We are not qualified to question them on their own culture. However, that is a two way street you know.

Palindromedary, I do believe you must be aware of that little sociological fact. It is called ethnocentrism. Please, do not encourage it!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 42 weeks ago
Quote DAnneMarc:Palindromedary ~ I think you are mistaken my friend. Foreigners have every right to comment on such topics. The same right we do.
Yes, I agree with that...that's what I was trying to say. Foreigners do have every right to comment on such topics.

I agree with most of what you said. But, the thread's topic did not say that this was specifically about rape specifically in the US. In fact, the topic was about a rape that happened in Canada. Seems to me that the Americans on this thread tried to call it their own, as Americans are quite adept at doing in just about everything else, they seem to think that everything revolves around them and that opinions from people of other countries are irrelevant. Americans seem to have no problem trying to impose their way of life on everyone else around the world. Just look at all the countries they overthrow and try to impose their way of life on them (you know..like "freedom" and "democracy" and "women's lib").

They go way too far sometimes and demand that everyone agrees with them or they get mad and start insinuating bad things about those who don't fall in line. I even saw that when you started taking part in that discussion on rape...you first apologized for not participating earlier...and then started agreeing with everything they said...then later, you said something that ticked them off and they snapped at you...then you decided to bow out...then you got back in...and.....

Look what happened to D_Nat who first got in agreeing with everything but then said something they didn't like and it became a battle for a while. They were chided for not having the exact right attitudes or beliefs.

This happened to other guys as well...then when other women, like Michelle and MarinaL and Alyona (and maybe k. allen...I didn't even realize that was a she at the time) got in to add their opinions...they got snapped at and were called names. Michelle is not even a foreigner yet her opinions were not welcome either...so what pattern do you see here?

Remember, the original subject of the thread was about the rape of the girl in Canada and it also was about Traci Lords...funny thing..I don't remember anyone even discussing Traci Lords. You know, Traci Lords (not her real name) who starred in X-rated videos while underage because she lied about her age and got a fake ID...then going on to talk shows claiming she was used, exploited, and abused....then (while not reverting back to her real name or changing it from the infamous Traci Lords name) shamelessly going on to star in many more movies taking advantage of the illegal porn star name. .

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 4 years 42 weeks ago

Excue me, Palin, but I think I’ve already pointed out that: (1) Canadian culture is very similar to ours; (2) Canada is in close proximity to the U.S. and (3) Many similar cases to Rehteah’s have occurred in this country. The only reason we’ve discussed a Canadian gang-rape incident was that the thread on rape culture happened to be focused on Rehteah’s case instead of an American one. So sue us.

I have heard nothing about Traci Lords and can’t comment on that.

You have mischaracterized what happened between Marc, DN, ZZ, Kathleen (aka K.Allen) and myself. First of all ZZ quickly realized she’d misinterpreted and over-reacted to a post of Marc’s, and she apologized, which Marc graciously accepted. I have never “snapped” at Kathleen, and if you’re gonna accuse ZZ of “snapping” at Kathleen (which I don’t recall), I suggest you try and prove it. Far as DN is concerned, he and ZZ have had a long-standing friendship on these threads and have worked through many conflicts, so the one you witnessed was not as big a deal as you so conveniently assume. As for me and DN, I have never had a conflict with him. To the contrary, I happen to like DN and remain on friendly terms with him. Sorry to disappoint.

I really don’t care how you characterize it, PD, but I have no interest in discussing rape, rape culture or women’s issues with Russians, Indians, Pakistanis or for that matter, people from any culture that different from our own; especially cultures that patriarchal. It is a waste of time.

The way you jump all over people for being religious, having metaphysical inclinations or simply beliefs that differ from your own, you are really in no position to judge others for what you perceive as dogmatic. That’s one of the most amazing displays of hypocrisy I’ve seen on this website. The manner in which you push your athiesm on people would rival the fundamentalism of any bible thumper I’ve come across. Perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror before you criticize someone else for being dogmatic or “fundamentalist”. - AIW

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 42 weeks ago

The posts of MIL, Palindromedary and DAnneMarc are excellent and food for thought.

There may well be a case that it is difficult to comment on the culture of another society from without, even if one has spent time there. I was brought up in Russian and Indian culture but I feel that I should have a right to comment on how I perceive other cultures too provided one can do this respectfully.

Sadly, it seems that has been difficult without rapid insults.

What concerns me the most is that if Palindromedary is correct, what hope do any of us have to be able to live peacefully side by side?. My parents are associated with the INTERNATIONAL Red Cross. Does this mean that they should not help/intervene/give to other cultures than their own?

I can offer no answers except to say it appears to me that the culture of western white exceptionalism is alive and well, even within those western countries.

I can back this up from an entirely personal experience in the USA. My father gave me the money to buy a car there and then sell it on leaving. I bought a four year old red drophead Corvette. Quite a fun car, BTW, but not a 'sports icon'.

In all, I was pulled over by police 11 times. Once at gunpoint and three times I was handcuffed and twice I was 'searched' by a single male cop who clearly thought my breasts were very threatening and possibly causing a criminal offence it would seem! I had committted no traffic offence at any occasion. Once my ownership was established I was allowed on my way but several times was told I did not look like a Russian and that is why I was pulled over. Yeh, right...........

About half of the time I travelled with a white American girlfriend. Strange, never stopped once by police.

The current 'hands up, don't shoot' at Ferguson has real resonance with me.

The thoughtful comments here, searching for answers where may be there are none (but we must keep trying) have been rapidly attacked and name calling used already. How is this civilized?

My personal perception of how I choose to be as a woman does not make me a lapdog to Misogyny. The concept of 'strong' and 'aggressive' also seem misplaced to me with regard to women. To me is is just plain RUDE and unfeminine and a rejection of our very gender. This to me is a sign of big weakness.

I still cannot really understand the difference between violence of all kinds and 'rape culture'. As stated elsewhere, rape is just a subset of the manifistation of violence.

Oh yes, I am training to have a potential of extreme violence in the military sense. I view this though as how any woman should be. I see a woman should fight with the combined strength of a bear and a lioness to protect her young and her motherland or indeed herself.

It is interesting to note that the Nazis never allowed women to defend the 'Fatherland'. Perhaps that is another reason why they lost.

Russia is our 'motherland' while Germany has a 'Fatherland'. Does this reflect matriarchal and patriarchical cultures?

The rest of the time, I CHOOSE to be feminine in the classical sense. I try to be demure, polite, kind, empathetic and yes, attractive. This is how I choose to be. Yes, I do notice some women who to me, seem to try to behave like some men. Sitting with their legs apart, no attempt to look good, using horrid language and constantly angry. I prefer to talk about clothes, hair, beauty products, henna hand staining, dance etc. rather than the potential of the T-90MS battle tank even though I am able to do so.

I also think that it is normal and natural that women should be attractive to men if they are able to be. I am proud of my body and have indeed posed for photoshoots and shall continue to do so. Indeed, I buy my nice cars this way! I am quite sure I am everything a feminist is not in many respects but have to say that my personal experience of life is that I have huge power over men; in some ways, probably too much ! LOL

I do not think that this should make me a target of hate and name calling. Surely, how we choose to be , think or act is a personal choice and freedom of expression means one has power.

The biggest rape orgy in recent years by Russians was at the fall of Berlin. Russian soldiers were, in effect, given a 'rape holiday'. In the light of the 'rape of Russia' by the Nazis, one can understand it but I could not condone it, EVER and I am forever ashamed of what soldiers of my country did as indeed are Russian soldiers now. My father has spoken with people on both sides of this episode. Some Russians actually killed themselves afterwards, consumed with guilt, some Russians thought they would try and then stopped, just seeing a defenceless terrified woman. Most Russians just went and 'did it'. I think this was more a humiliation of the defeated. The German men who were found were usually just shot.

As I have always said, I would rather be raped than shot. I would also rather be 'Red than Dead'.

It would be wonderful if this thread could encompass all viewpoints without recourse to name calling; but then again, that is perhaps why we still have so many wars. Will we ever learn?

I see any form of *****ist as the final repository of those who have closed their minds. (with the exception of dentists)

I just want to have a happy life, do a useful and fulfilling job and find a nice Russian Indian who is Hindu and have children. Why is this a crime?


PS. Just seen this from AIW

' I have no interest in discussing rape, rape culture or women’s issues with Russians, Indians, Pakistanis or for that matter, people from any culture that different from our own; especially cultures that patriarchal. It is a waste of time.'

AIW. That is your choice. Then please ignore my posts and not keep sniping at me. Let us look at this as a 'mexican standoff'. I shall continue to post my thoughts with those who choose to engage.

With regards to your comments about MIL who is an atheist. How is it that we have been able to converse very happily. An atheist with a practicing Hindu? Perhaps it is because we share the common bond of being normal women?

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Alyona (MarinaL), and Palindromedary

Really good points and on topic. THIS blog refers to rape as a GLOBAL issue, NOT a specifically American issue. This blog post is intended to be UNIVERSAL, so all nationalities, cultures, sub-cultures, genders, sexual orientations, ages groups, ethnicities faiths, and races are encouraged to weigh in. Also all professions, from Sociologists to Dentists! THIS blog also encourages all participants to make a LEGITIMATE and SERIOUS effort to read carefully before thoughtfully and respectfully responding to a post. Your thoughts, stories, and opinions would be appreciated!

PS to Aly- hope Father is recovering and doing well! TY for the Russian "rape holiday" info, I learned something new, (goes to the spoils of war thing) and the personal experience- your Dad's knowledge- very valuable.

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Thank you Michelle for the concise clarification of the rules of this thread. I am glad you felt my contribution was OK.

Under these circumstances, may I again mention that the Hindu elephant deity, Ganesh is the deity of the scholar and those wishing to solve problems. Most appropriate I would say in these contexts.

I also thank you sincerely for your kind thoughts about my father. While he was there, a ballistic missle was fired and it hit an appartment block. He held a dying child in his arms until there was no more life. The injuries were unsurvivable. He is home and says he will never ever forget the look in the child's eyes. He then inspected the mass graves that have been found of executed Russian ethnics. He is quite traumatized at present but we hope he will come round without recourse to another kind of ++++++ist, psycholog in this case. Right now he is breaking down a lot and that is understandable.

peace to you all


DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 4 years 41 weeks ago

Palindromedary ~ I regretted getting into that blog so late because it was obvious that people were already upset and I knew I was going to be the target of someone.

Like AIW said, Canadian culture is very similar to ours. The same hemisphere, same continent, roughly the same time of beginning with the same groups of immigrants who spoke mostly the same languages and developed recently from mostly from the same media sources. In addition, the rape in question took place amongst kids; who, for a very real reason, were probably spurred on into committing the act from their exposure to American media and culture. It is quite easy for me to see how people here could see this act as a result of American culture and something that could easily happen here for the same reason. In fact, I would be surprised to learn that no one on this blog hasn't experienced--or doesn't know someone who has experienced--something like that attack. Certainly, I know someone who has; and, I can relate to the passion behind a lot of these comments.

Although I am very familiar with Traci Lords work, I fail to remember when or how it became a relevant issue in this topic. Traci was a porn star, not the victim of rape. She may have been exploited at an early age; however, anyone who has ever seen one of her performances would be hard pressed to suggest there was any coercion involved at all. Certainly, she didn't posses the caliber of acting talent to pull that one off. I fail to see in anyway how her story relates to a gang rape of an underage drunk girl. Traci was completely sober, read a script, signed a contract, and received a check. She always knew exactly what was going on and went along with it. She even lied about her age to do it. Apples and Oranges.

Incidentally, can anyone explain why this thread is numbered backwards this morning?

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wow! The posts just flipped back forwards again. I don't know about you guys but I'm getting dizzy. Time to get on with the day. Have a good one, all!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago
Quote Aliceinwonderland:
I have heard nothing about Traci Lords and can’t comment on that.
Quote mikslvr:On a recent Stephanie Miller Show, Traci Lords was a guest. Traci told Steph about the day she told her mother that she had been raped in Steubenville when she was a teen, but had not told anyone. Even more shocking then that was her mother's response ... she too had been raped in Steubenville! (Stephanie & Traci Lords - 03/26/2013 - The Stephanie Miller Show)

Excuse me, but events like Rehtaeh's rape and suicide, the unbelievable public sympathy for the football players who committed the rape covered in the recently concluded Steubenville trial (including sympathy from members of the LSM!), the undisclosed attacks against Traci Lords and her mother, the rampant opposition by republicans to the reauthorization of the VAWA, the backlog of thousands of untested rape kits in police labs around this country, all the "rapey guy" candidates the damned teabaggers conyinue to nominate ... I could go on and on ... all this makes me want to rethink the definition of the word "civilization" !


Aside from this initial bringing up the subject of Traci Lords by Mikslvr who started the blog post, I had done some checking into the history of Traci Lords and read a lot about it... none of which, I believe, was ever mentioned in that thread.
My view on religion is that people can believe anything thing they want to believe, whatever makes them happy, as long as they don't try to force other people to believe the same way they do. If they express their beliefs publicly, then they should expect to receive differing opinions without going ballistic. As I recall, several people mentioned their religious beliefs...even, often, quoting the Bible. Another person mentioned reincarnation who claimed that it was scientifically proven to be true. Other people from time to time said things that referenced Christianity and other religions. Unfortunately, it can and has led to an almost never ending and escalating flame war.

Sometimes, it may be best to let those who are so opinionated have their way and and just ignore them...just move on to something else. If these people want to have their little Bible study group, reinforcing each others ability to fight their doubts, so that their beliefs can grow stronger, perhaps they should go to a more amenable blog site that is more religion oriented. I never see any other religion except, perhaps, Islam and Christianity (including the thousands of variations that claim exclusive truths) that is so out to conquer the world with their particular belief system. And sometimes their attempts at proselytizing is just very subtle religious references. Achoo...God bless you! And "In God We Trust" on our money....and "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. Millions of people have been slaughtered over their differences and it is just a terrible shame. And I think that the one prophet that both of those major religions believe in was a lot more accepting of Hindu and Egyptian religions than those who worship him today are. If emulation is a form of flattery or reverence, there are a lot of hypocrites that really don't believe much of what they say. Of course, Hindus and Muslims have had their problems as well resulting in bloody mayhem. Don't know who started it but it ended in the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh and the Rajneeshi cult in Oregon. ;-}

But, I think that many feminists are also atheists...or at least reject those religions that are male dominated like Christianity or Islam. I believe that you, AlW, have expressed your disdain for the male dominated religions and possibly Agnosticism, if not leaning toward Atheism, yourself.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

Alyona: That is so sad...about the child dying in your father's arms. Oh, what a horrible shame this war is over there ... any war, anywhere. The many millions of children that have died in wars far outweigh any other topic in sadness and needless suffering. We should be united in stopping these atrocities rather than caviling about far lesser things. We often laugh at how the little people get sucked in to voting for the party of wealth and exclusion...the Republicans... which results in their having voted against their best economic interests. And how they easily get suckered into becoming easily divided and conquered and manipulated by relatively inane side issues; yet, it happens to the rest of us as well.

I remember watching demonstration over the years...how when people demonstrate, other non-related people (other demonstrators) with various other "causes" join in. It tends to distract and water down what the majority of demonstrators are there for to begin with. These minority "causes", by rabid coo-coos, ride in on the coat-tails of the majority of demonstrators and leach attention away from the main demonstrators. One wonders if it is not done for the express purpose of distraction, by their opponents...paid shills, perhaps, from what the main demonstration is all about in the first place.

I hope your father recovers not only from his physical wounds but the ones that comes from a terrible emotional ordeal of having a young child die in his arms. Your father sounds like a very good man. I wish him well!

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Reading the last several posts, I fear that this is on slippery slope with so many specific references to other posts. As the author of this blog, I MOST RESPECTFULLY request that further posts try to keep within the topic of this blog specifically. Anyone wishing to discuss specifics within other blogs, please do so, at the other blogs.

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

The exception is anyone who wishes to express their well wishes to Alyona's father! (including my own!!! : ).....)

For example, I mentioned "rape of the environment"....Any thoughts?


michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

The discussion of religion could be very interesting as it relates to attutudes of or references to the subject of rape. Does anyone have good information of how, for example, the subject of rape is viewed within Hinduism? (because we got us one here- hi Aly!) I know nothing about that, and I'd like to learn. Any others have any religious perspectives would be most welcome!..............TY

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Please, everyone, "Traci Lords" is from a different blog. : )

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Palindromedary, thank you for those very kind wishes. Yes, my father is a very good man and does his best to help where he can. I am so proud of him. I have been shocked to see him right now. He is extremely good looking normally but he is very beaten up and caught splinters in his face and body as well as having an arm broken while trying to save those trapped. We really cannot understand why the West supports Nazis who kill civilians for ethnic cleansing.

quote by Palindromedary 

'Of course, Hindus and Muslims have had their problems as well resulting in bloody mayhem. Don't know who started it but it ended in the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh'

Hindus do not proselytize because everybody is a Hindu unless they state they are not, by, for instance, becoming confirmed into Christian Church. The religion has been in existence for at least 4000 years, probably longer.

Islam is a very new religion which came in from the North and there is a belief that it is right to proselytize. This has caused minor flareups for a long time but generally Hindus and Islam have peacefully lived side by side. By 1947, India was becoming very violent in their push for independence. The British had double crossed the Indians with regards to the Indian contribution to the Second World War and there was anger everywhere. Some tried to negotiate peacefully but there was more violence than peace. A few politicians pursued their own agendas at this time of chaos and threw partition into the pot. This was NOT the will of the Indian people by and large though.

The British loved the idea. I think they thought it would 'divide and conquer'. It would also divert attention that millions was owed to the unified Indian army.

A British civil servant undertook the task, drawing lines where he chose on a map. This was with no consideration of ethnic population. The Punjab was cut in half, for instance. Drawing lines on maps is a classic colonialist habit.

On public record are his reports on the matter and he estimated that 'only about 100,000 Indians would be killed on partition'. The result was the death of millions and there is pain and chaos to this day. Later, Bangladesh' wanted to be apart from Pakistan and so it goes on................

'only about 100,000 Indian deaths' throws into sharp focus the disdain the white colonialists have of other peoples.

I confess that this is my take on this.

from post of Michelle

'Does anyone have good information of how, for example, the subject of rape is viewed within Hinduism? (because we got us one here- hi Aly!)'

That is such a hard one to answer. My Dad who is a priest would be the one to answer this but he would not get back here and in any event is in no condition to right now. I shall do my best.

Firstly, Hinduism is a huge mishmash of different local religions which have somehow managed to fuse into a whole. This is generally wonderful and makes the religion richer for it.

Folk stories about various deities are wildly different throughout the land. Most would just regard them as folk stories but some take it in a more literal manner. Therein lies the problem. Some stories do relate how a particular deity raped or was violent towards a woman and some maybe see this as an excuse for rape. I actually think that is quite rare though.

The core belief also varies a bit but trying to do a summation, I would say this:

It is exceptionally difficult to separate out the effects of caste, core belief and interpretation which is regional, sometimes different from village to village.

There are many deities, but they are just MANIFISTATIONS of the one godly power who has many names. The one godly power is both male and female, by the way. Rape and abuse is not the Hindu way, respect and peacefulness is. It is a religion of personal private transcending rather than one of being preached to. One must look into ones own heart. Children are of course taught about the religion but the teaching is also locally variable.

Now comes the chaos if what you have already read is not enough!

Poverty and the bloody caste system that still hangs around our necks despite a gradual pushback is the next factor. Some are considered worthless and are treated as such. Rape of women was very common during the Raj and this carried on after the Brits left, although to a lesser extent.

Gradually, abortion of females has been a huge player in this. There is a massive shortage of females now and a lot of very horny males who will rape because they have to other way to 'know' a woman.

The reasons are endless and complex, which is about where my father came in and was shot down on other thread!

I am so sorry I cannot be more clear. Trying to answer this myself is very confusing! LOL For me though, I love the religion as it works for me.

Can we let go of this 'porn star'?

best to all

Alyona (probably more confused now than your are!)

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 4 years 41 weeks ago

Reply to post #15: Palin, just to make myself clear, I have no issue with your athiesm. As you have acknowledged accurately, I myself am an athiest. And yes, I reject any religion that is patriarchal, which includes virtually every religion I know of in existence. My issue has been with the aggressiveness of your own fundamentalist, dogmatic way of pushing your belief (or non-belief, if that is what you call it) on others. Perhaps you have cleaned up your act and haven’t done it for awhile, but the evidence of this remains in the Hartmann archives. So even if you have improved that aspect of your behavior in recent months, I still think you are in no position to judge or label anyone else for “fundamentalism”. That’s all I’m saying. - AIW

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

Alyona: Thanks for that bit of history on India and it's religions. That was very interesting. I also got some lessons from the movie "The Life of Pi". Except it always bothered me that the Tiger, as big and heavy as he was, did not even tip the small life boat when he hopped aboard when it was partially beached at the Island. Perhaps it was just one of those bloopers or perhaps it had a deeper meaning. I suppose people are always looking for deeper meanings when they really have no deeper meanings at all.

I like the ancient Indian Panchatantra fables and I first learned of them through the Arabic version called Kalila wa Dimna..which I have in English and in Arabic. But I believe the Panchatantra were the earliest and original stories. It is also known and the Fables of Bidpai.

I apologize if the subject of the porn star was inappropriate. I have said all I have to say about that anyway. Some subjects are just best either left unsaid or just dropped.

When I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, I met a number of people from other countries including India and Pakistan. I had not met any Russians but I had heard that some where around working as expatriates like the rest of us. Out of the 6 million people who inhabited Saudi Arabia...only 5 million were Saudis and 1 million were expats.

Thanks again for your very educational chat!

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Thanks Alyona for the India/Hindu primer, and thanks to PalinD for a thoughtful response. : ) I believe that taking the effort to understand other cultures, different perspectives, finding common ground is a good first step toward resolving conflict and violence, wherever and however it plays out. We expand our empathy, and boy could this world, at this time, use some!!!

India is a very very complex place, so I understand Alyona's difficulty in trying to find a straightfoward answer the question of how rape is dealt with in Hinduism. I would argue that a Christian would have difficulty as well, if based on Biblical interpretation, especially if one leans more toward the old Testament or the New. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but any relevent specific passages denouncing or supporting rape would be interesting to know. Same goes for any Hindu text, or text from any other religious books.

Atheism? Because it has no text and isn't a religion, and for me it is a personal choice, and I am not affiliated with any Atheist groups, I'm unaware of any specific doctrine reguarding rape. Anyone have any alternative info?

Alyona, been meaning to get back to Ganesh, which was an AWESOME serendipity, as a "mascot" for this blog. Hubby gave me a great book, An Encyclopedia of Myth and Legend, Indian Mythology (Jan Knappert).(and that's a BTW - "peace" big deal, my Pak Muslim husband honors Hinduism, he doesn't see Indians as the "enemy", but rather as Sub-Contenental Sibblings : ) ) I looked up Ganesh(a), Lord of the Ganas. I didn't realize the amount of symbolism given to every detail in the image! Cool. I hope we can continue to honor this thread's unofficial "mascot" by also keeping Ganesha's wives in mind, Siddhi 'achievement' and Buddhi 'intelligence' in all manner going forward.

Looking forward to future discussion! Will ask Hubby about how Islam addresses the issue of rape and also within Pakistani society/culture. In all these years, I'd never asked.

Peace to all, and most especially peace to Alyona's father and her entire family. I can't begin to imagine....... hugs

Hoping other community members join in as well, it would be nice to broaden the discussion!

BTW, been meaning to get back to Ganash

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Please, on topic everyone, please! I don't want this to get dragged into personal histories and historical spats. Please don't take the bait! It is difficult to ignore and not react, I get it, but please let these things go. These things are irrelevent in this space.

This blog is about the destructive nature of violence and it's offspring, rape. To engage in verbal violence toward one another is unwelcome.

Opinions about the topic are relevent, but personal grudges are not.


: )

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

Ok, michelle...you're right...it has gone off topic...sorry!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago


michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Ty Palindrome, : )........- are you aware of any Atheist specific doctrine reguarding rape? TTFN, ta ta for now!

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

and for anyone having trouble ignoring an itch, the current blog "Love, Freedom Potatoes and Sunflowers" by Natural Lefty was a terrific dose of psych ointment!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

michellekovalik: Maybe some atheist groups have something like that but I don't belong to any particular atheist group and don't keep up with them. I sometimes go to ffrf.org but that's about it. I think it is pretty universal, though, that rape is bad and is condemned by everyone and I agree.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

By the way, your use of the title "Rape and the Elephant" reminds me of the ancient fable of the "Lark and the Elephant".


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago


MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Dear All,

I am sorry that I seem so very muddled on my explanation of Hinduism but it may give an idea on how hard it is to get change in that country due to its social complexity and utter diversity.

Michelle, I would have been very surprised if your husband did not honour Hinduism. I honour Islam. I hope he thinks I gave a fair analysis.

There is a Hindu/Islam 'crossover'. This is the Sufi way, a path that I myself have looked at seriously.

As I see it, all religions come in many forms and colours. All have good and bad depending upon interpretation and how much those within the religion have been prodded by others and then reacted.

I find it very hard also to attack a complete religion for being 'patriarchal' or not. My understanding, is that Islam originally gave women equal power and things evolved afterwards in most cases following rewrites of texts, and 'interpretation' by men. I would love to know if Hubby agrees.

I think of Islam in Spain, even. It was very enlightened and liberal to others. In that case, hell broke out on their defeat and this was followed by the Christian 'Inquisition'. So much civilization and knowledge came from early Islam and we are grateful for it.

I cannot view Hinduism as 'Patriarchal' either. The great power is both man and woman and both are equally worshipped. Our own family shrine is to Laxmi and Ganesh but we all know we are praying to the One Great Power at the end of the day. My father actually trained as a priest after military service at the 'other end of India', at The temple of Sri Venkateswara (SE). It is a world heritage site. There is an average of 50,000 pilgrims a day who go there. It is the most spiritual place I can imagine and I often go back there in my thoughts. Our Great Power, we personally call Venkateswara or Balaji. There are many such temples in the USA, BTW.


I think most if not all religions have had a tendency to become controlled by men as time goes by. There are again many complex reasons for this too and it is pointless to discuss this perhaps.

Is humanism actually effectively a religion? Seems quite a reasonable stance to me.

The rules of this forum state that antisemetism and racism are not allowed. I felt this was a 'wrong' statement in itself. It suggests to me that the forum finds attacking other religions acceptable except the Jewish one. If one goes further to say that the Jews are actually a race as well as a religion, then some will react if one attacks policies in Israel as 'anti-semetic'. This is very common BTW. I see this as an excellent way for Israel to committ horrendous crimes against the indigens and 'get away with it'.

Generally, I have an interest in such things but I am very very busy studying languages and military and still, actually, traditional dance. I am second year post graduate. I work hard and can play hard but have no time for a steady relationship until I have completed studies and established myself. I am sponsored by the military and have to reach very high goals.

PalinD, no need for any apologies. Your thoughts are always as a human being IMO!

Palin D quote

'Except it always bothered me that the Tiger, as big and heavy as he was, did not even tip the small life boat when he hopped aboard when it was partially beached at the Island. Perhaps it was just one of those bloopers or perhaps it had a deeper meaning.'

The tiger is the most powerful and strongest creature but is no more important than a lowly creature. All are equally worthy of respect.

السلام عليك، يا صديقي.


Concerning your point on the 'rape of the environment'. I study English and not American. The Oxford Dictionary states the origin of the word is from the Latin 'rapere' (to seize)

Synonyms are also to spoil or destroy.

In that context one could describe the Rape of the environment, Lybia, Syria, Iraq etc. along with almost anything that is ruined.

Some might argue that humans have raped the planet.

I do hope that Hubby can be persuaded to give his take on Islam and rape.

Peace to all.


MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

I am back home and sit with my father who has now been sleeping for 14 hours.

Michelle, I hope this will fall within the remit of your thread. I personally think it relevent but it is just my personal view.

The Patriarchal Society.

In the belly of Woman lies the greatest miracle of human life. The ability to create another human being from two gametes. OK, I know all animals can do it one way or another, but I still think we are pretty clever! We are then perfectly designed to nuture the child and so it goes.

Also built into our genes is the drive to choose a fertilizing partner that can help produce an excellent offspring, ideal safe environment for the child and protect it during development to give the offspring the very best chance in life.

We are also designed in a way that attracts the male. The more one is attractive to the male, the better the chance of attracting the RIGHT male for reproduction and upbringing. Those that attract the male the most have the best choices available to them. Those young women who do their utmost to defy nature or are sadly not so attractive will have a very poor pick of available males, if at all. Top of the power balance are very attractive women and unattractive women are at the bottom. It is what it is.

There are of course many historical instances where nature does not take its natural course. Arranged marriages for dynasty building, within royal families etc. This can have dire consequences however, such as inbreeding, haemophilia etc etc.

This is to me simple biology although no doubt contentious to some. It is what it is.

Add to that, within the X gene that males never get, is an ability to socialise. We also mature faster and learn quicker and frequently on our own and often do better than males in school, given the chance. We do not all have good spatial co-ordination. For instance, females tend to be either terrible or really excellent pilots. Males fall mostly in the middle.

By rights then, us gals should be nutured and placed in a privileged position.

So what has gone wrong?

To be valued is a double edged sword. This of course can be equated to 'ownership'. I would contend that a woman wants to feel 'owned' and cherished during gestation and child upbringing in order to feel secure. Naturally, life was not long for most but things have changed and we can now look forward to much longer lives. Therein may lie the problem.

Privileged women can also now choose when to become pregnant and can of course terminate a pregnancy. Clearly this riles for primitive men who still wish to maintain ownership at all times, sometimes by the manipulation of religion.

The position of women who have fulfilled their biological role changes and this is not always recognised by males (or indeed females). It is a hard transition to make and so that one goes.

The real problem lies with our procreative role; to fulfill our requirements of nature. Gestation and then the horror of childbirth. Humans have big brains at birth and frankly our design falls short of the ideal to deliver reliably! Before technology, huge numbers of us died at birth as did our offspring.

In an environment of very limited resources, why invest much in females who are likely to die at childbirth? In any case, most seem to get the hang of things without too much attention. Far better to invest in males who can bring home the 'meat'. Males seem to need much more training! This fact alone has over history tended to place us into a 'stock rearing' programme! There is of course the term 'animal husbandry'.

Things have changed, but only in some places and that change is very recent in any case. That is why IMO, patriarchal societies have developed while we have been consigned to the 'milch cow' category along with the other farm animals.

Social change is slow but we cannot change biology but must better learn to live with it in a way that both genders grow spiritually and usefully.



apologies for two long posts.

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Wow......SO much great info, hard to address it all quickly and coherently, and at the moment, haven't the time-----But have this much to add briefly:

Broadly speaking, in Islam of course rape is of course forbidden in the Q'ran, because it sex is permitted ony between a husband and (a- because you may have up to 4) wife.....yes, that leaves alot of questions unanswered, technical details. Theorhetically, any sex outside of marriage could be considered to be rape. However, variations of interpretation are many, as with ant religion when applied to real-life society. Like Hinduism or Christianity, it can get complicated. Will get specifics.

As Alyona wrote about brilliantly, the aspect of "women" as "vessel", breeder, and by extention, a woman's value in society cross-culture which has led to women being seen as "property" in may places throughout time, including NOW, It gets very complicated,


I think is why the obvious questions and difficulties in defining "feminism" or "rape culture" are not so clear-cut, if one stands back to take in a bigger picture. CONTEXT is everything, which is why I feel I must push back from, to use PalinD's word, MYOPIC definitions, too limited. The tree vs. forest concept. But then things always get complicated.

A little like the gun violence, especially mass shootings in the USA, what causes it, how do we fix it? And we talk about "GUN culture". What does that mean? Some say it's all about violent video games, some say it's all about violent movies, some say it's all about mental illness, some say it's simply about access. All of these things that surround the "gun culture" debate are NEARLY IDENTICAL to the things that come in in the "rape culture" debate. MEDIA in it's many forms (video games, movies -including porn movies, magazines), mental illness and ACCESS. There is so much overlap between these two huge issues, and what is the connection?

VIOLENCE! and mental illness, and ACCESS (and APPROVAL).

I don't have it all organized and worked through, but the similarities are stunningly obvious, which is why defining "rape culture" as has been argued misses the overall point. Rape is a subset of ALL forms of violence, just as guns, mass shootings are a subset of ALL forms of violence.

Whew, it's complicated in detail, but I think the "bigger picture" perspective is certainly worthy of investigation.

"gun culture" in many ways mirrors "rape culture". Same ingredients. Why? Because it's all about violence.

Thanks again everyone for the info, amazing stuff.

And PalinD, had to look up "Lark and the Elephant" TY, you turned me onto a whole new set of fables! Did you learn that from your Saudi experience? cool.

And to Aly, my husband leans Sufi, but when one parent is Shia and the other Sunni, why not go outside the box? LOL! ( he loves to chill to Sufi music) AND>>>>>hugs to your Dad and Mother as well

Thanks so much all!


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

Alyona: شكرا جزيلا-وعَلَيْكُمُ السَّلام يا صديقي
I went to Tirumala via Google Earth...unfortunately there are no "Google Street views". I did find photos of the temple, though, and it is very beautiful. If I ever travel to India again that will surely be on my list of places to see.

Here are the coordinates of the temple I found...I know you know where it is but someone reading this may want to find it easily by just copying and pasting the coordinates into Google Earth.
13°40'59.98"N 79°20'50.83"E

I wish your father to get well soon.
Выздоравливайте скорее

مَعَ السّلامَة

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

ps....Alyona, about the "horrors" of childbirth, yes! something MOST women are reluctant to be HONEST.. about- cross culture BTW, so how does that fit into feminism? and to PalinD- when the "rape-ry Repubs" brush off the idea of carrying and giving birth to a baby, even from a rape (no abortion allowed) as though it was a "gift" from God, no big deal, such disreguard, because as Alyona pointed out, it can be a "horror".......both of your posts connect....

also, I love that Aly says "many of US die" durring childbirth. US!!!!! US!!!! perfect. ALL people!!! US!!! ......all of humanity begins this way, all of humanity has this in common- it is UNIVERSAL. Why we should see ourselves as all-connected, not factional. Just thought that was really on the mark.

TY! :

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

US- die while trying to be born- meaning ALL babies can die, all genders of babies,races of babies, etc. Bingo! Universality.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

michellekovalik: YW-you're welcome! I don't think I first learned about Kalila wa Dimna Fables when I was in Saudi Arabia. I had stumbled across them years later, after I left Saudi Arabia. Over the years I have been trying to learn Arabic and probably just found reference to them on the internet.

Those fables all tend to interconnect...one referring to some character or lesson learned in another fable. I haven't read them all yet, myself. There is a fable about a couple of geese that realize that their pond is drying up and planning to move to another pond. A turtle, overhearing the geese, pleads with them to take him with them or he would die. They agreed providing he never said a word during the whole trip. So the geese had the turtle bite down on the middle of a stick and they took each end in their mouths and flew off toward the new pond. As they passed over a town the people saw them and started making fun of them. The tortoise, indignant of being made fun of, opened his mouth to yell back at them. And the turtle died when he hit the ground. Did I really use the word "myopic"? ;-}

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Yes, myopic, : ).....and the geese /turtle story, very very very apropo. (sp?) You're subtlety, noted.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

michellekovalik: I guess I don't quite understand what you are saying in your last message but I do find it strange that the Repubs are so "for protecting life", even the fetus from a rape, yet they don't seem to have a problem in destroying life both from the standpoint of sending in their armies and bombs and missiles to kill foreigners, even their children and babies, but to also sacrifice those soldiers who die in battle. What's the point of giving birth and loving and raising children if we're just going to send them off to be killed. I believe that a woman should have the right to choose whether she lets that fetus in her body be terminated...and most especially...from a rape. How cruel can people be to force a woman who has been raped to give birth to her rapist's child?

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Hello all

It is past 02.00 hrs and mother and I take turns to sit with father. We want him to know there is a loving presence when he wakes from time to time. My siblings have had to go their way so it is up to us two now. We are very moved about your thoughtful good wishes sent to us all. We have just learned of another Red Cross worker who has been killed in the new republic. It could have so easily been father. I am working on regional British accents and sayings while keeping a 'weather eye on him'.


Palindromedary, thanks for the Earth link. Never thought about that. Soon we lose Google though as Russia pulls more and more away from the West. When will this all end? Good to meet someone who has opened their eyes to the world. أنا شكرا جزيلا لك

I am glad my comments resonated although already I feel howls of anguish from some, on other threads. It is rather a Russian view but also Indian in some respects.

One aspect I have not really figured out is population density. Russia is short of babies and India the opposite.

I have not yet had a child and do not intend to until I fulfil my role as a citizen but I really look forward to holding a miracle in my arms. I hope that miracle will be born into more peaceful times.

Yes, there is complete universality but so few seem to understand this. Yes, we all share the same path of life no matter who or where we are. Yes, violence is on top of the pyramid of pain.

love to you all


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

Alyona: :-)

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

PalinD, Aly, :-)

even an atheist can offer prayers, blessings,meditation? I send these to your Father, Aly, and to both of you, and even to "adversaries.............(does thaat nulify the female aggression theory?..............D Nat chimed in w/a disagreement, so uh oh)

and don't fret if you didn't understand what I was yammering about, PalinD, I got it in my head but it takes time to "translate"........until I have the time, what comes out is incomprehensible, though I think Alyona got some of it.............

gun culture mirrors rape cultue (in USA)...........link? violence. working on it............

take care everyone!

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Dear All,

I have just made Dad breakfast in bed and he is back to sleep!

I always try to view things globally and biologically. I completely understood where you were leading, Michelle, and I agree. There is IMO though, a NEXT STEP.

In one of my posts, (34), I wrote:

Also built into our genes is the drive to choose a fertilizing partner that can help produce an excellent offspring, ideal safe environment for the child and protect it during development to give the offspring the very best chance in life.

We are also designed in a way that attracts the male. The more one is attractive to the male, the better the chance of attracting the RIGHT male for reproduction and upbringing. Those that attract the male the most have the best choices available to them. Those young women who do their utmost to defy nature or are sadly not so attractive will have a very poor pick of available males, if at all. Top of the power balance are very attractive women and unattractive women are at the bottom. It is what it is.

I think this is highly significant.

Most of world violence is about rape. Rape in the sense of seizing, or in modern parlance asset grabbbing. This can take the form of raping another country for its material assets, such as is habitually practiced by white European colonialists; spices, guano, minerals, tea, minerals and now, of course, oil and gas and soon water. Anything, in fact, which creates wealth.

I see little motivation in the male for doing this except to impress females and get the best choices!

Look around and watch how the male will show off in front of females! It might be a fancy car, yacht or just silly behaviour. Countries behave just like people, too. LOL. Does one REALLY want to fairly share a rare asset with all nations and ethnics? Hell no! That is perhaps the root of 'exceptionalism'; the ability to grab the most assets.

Genes will always win no matter how civilized we think we are. Females WILL almost always choose a male that offers the best prospects for her progeny.

I contend that in point of fact, the existence of females is probably the main cause of violence! Sought after females are in fact on the top of the power pyramid. You can even see them throughout history. If that does not turn things on its head, then nothing will.


Alyona (running and ducking in a trench somewhere.)

Michelle, prayers are from the heart. Thank you so much.

michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

Aly- only a moment, bedtime for me USA-

Your going for the genetic links to ALL forms of rape/violence is super valid. If you have the time, if you're not already familiar w/his work, google Richard Dawkins the Selfish Gene (a book)............also, Dawkins himself got into big brou-ha-ha with some commentary about rape recently, have no links but also google....it got nasty

Hugs to Father, and wishing YOU many new bruises! (as a tomboy/ athlete, I have a great deal of respect for a chick with bruises- who can then kill it in 5" heels and the perfect little black black dress)


michellekovalik's picture
michellekovalik 4 years 41 weeks ago

E.O. Wilson, also good, tries to go universal, overall

: ) MlK

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

I think that logical people just cannot talk to illogical and emotional kinds of people...which is a large section of the population. Logic goes over their heads and they go into attack modes. Being an atheist just makes him (RD) a target for crack pots..they will always take things out of context...because they can't, or wont, understand the context to begin with. Although, I can't imagine that he (RD) was surprised at the responses in saying the things he did even though what he said was logically correct. Emotional people don't want to hear logical things. But, I suppose if you are writing controversial books it doesn't hurt to rile up the natives sometimes...good way to get lots of attention. Although, all of the detractors are trying to get attention as well because they make a living off of getting the natives riled up too.

MarinaL's picture
MarinaL 4 years 41 weeks ago

Father has finally become calmer and we have done Pooja together. I think he will be OK but it will take some time for his face to heal. He has a really swollen lip still which makes him lisp! Our M.O. feels nothing but a bit of rest and time is needed. He is still on antibiotics though.

I am amazed that my posts have not initiated the launch of an ICBM at me.

Palindromedary, it certainly can be difficult to talk with people who are emotionally out of control; well, OK, IMPOSSIBLE. Some who have taken part in the rape discussions do appear to me to be very disturbed.

I always think that we have several ways to navigate through life. Thinking, perceiving, lntuiting and Feeling. Most just use one or two and ignore the others. They are very undeveloped IMO and live very one dimensional lives.

A good ship's captain stands on the bridge and uses all these methods and he will be the least likely to spill crude all over the foreshore.


I shall try to find out about Richard Dawkins and E.O. Wilson. Thank you for that. I have learned from my father who is a wonderful teacher of life. He always has made us think and work things out for ourselves and he gently steers us (usually with a story) when we get lost.

I am afraid I was never an athlete as a child. I was the typical Indian stick insect and very girly. My mother used to say she was afraid to hug me too hard in case I broke! My father insisted that his daughters learned to defend themselves and I discovered how much fun this was and really got into it. Karate has been my passion. I learned that one can do almost anything without being a muscle bound leviathan! I am still very girly, through and through however!

I was hired to be at Sochi during the winter olympics as a hostesse. Uni. gave me the time as it was excellent for languages. I really did not think I would ever wear such short dresses though! I have now been asked to return as a 'Formula 1 chick', as you would say. I had not really wanted to go as work is pressured at this time but again, Uni thought it would be good for me. I have little time to lose the bruises and must get no more before then! I really want to be with Force India but who knows? I have managed to get a top hotel and flights for my parents also, all in the package. Father and I are both 'motorheads' and I think it will be excellent for him in his recovery.

I have to admit there are a few drivers who make me go weak at the knees! Lewis Hamilton is my idol but he is taken by a lovely gifted woman. I shall be 'circulating' with the drivers! Could life get any better!

We have PADDOCK PASSES!!!!!! YES YES YES!!!!!!!

Best to all


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 4 years 41 weeks ago

My but you do live an interesting life. I am happy for you. That's great! Wow, Sochi hostess! And into racing cars?! I've rebuilt a couple of engines and have worked on my own cars before but was never into racing. I recently had to replace a gas tank in one of my cars because the fuel level indicator was malfunctioning.

They have a reference to some parents in the US: "Nascar dads and Soccer moms".

Nascar dads are men who are believed to typically enjoy watching NASCAR racing, or comparable high-impact sports or entertainment with their kids.

The phrase soccer mom broadly refers to women who spend a significant amount of her time transporting her school-age children to their youth sporting events or other activities...often soccer.

By the way, I remembered that you said that you might lose Google and I watched a show on Russia Today called Sophie & Co. Sophie was interviewing the CEO of a new company called FireChat. It sounded very interesting so I looked it up on the internet. I also posted a blog called "Firechat". It is an app that can be used to stay connected to people you want to stay connected to in the event the internet goes down, for whatever reason. I don't think it would help with being able to Google though....mostly just for messaging.


I read up on pooja or puja and the 16 steps in the ritual of pooja. I'm learning new things every time I read your messages. Thanks! I'm glad your father is feeling better.

By the way, As I watch, mostly, Russia Today, I see far more in depth news reporting about places like Donetsk. I am very impressed with one woman reporter, Maria Finoshina, who seems to always be in some very dangerous places reporting the news. Very brave lady!

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Come Cruise with Thom Hartmann in July 2020

Join me for an exciting Bermuda getaway aboard Oceania Cruises, the world’s leading culinary and destination-focused cruise line. Set sail on the reimagined Insignia for 7 nights beginning July 25th 2020. Take advantage of Oceania Cruises’ OLife Choice promotion, where you can choose shore excursions, a beverage package, or onboard credit – Oceania Cruises also includes Wifi! You'll also receive complimentary gratuities, a $50 onboard credit and two exclusive cocktail parties. Did I mention we are planning special onboard events with yours truly? Prices start at $1199.

Reserve your stateroom today by contacting Keene Luxury Travel, and mention the Thom Hartmann Group 800.856.1155

What Do Democrats Really Want?

Thom plus logo Thomas Friedman, the confused billionaire, told us decades ago that "free trade" is what made the Lexus a successful product when, in fact, it was decades of Japanese government subsidies and explicit tariffs that did so.