Wow. There's been a really heated discussion on Thom Hartmann's site about whether we should follow Bernie Sander's and Thom Hartmann's explicit advice to support Hillary over any Republican in the general election, or to "be pure" and for all practical purposes, waste our vote (Yes, I have a strong opinion!). This would be a reasonable conversation given what's at stake, as long as some of the participants are not unknowing shills for Republican strategists. Why would I suggest that possibility? Read on.

What actually makes a revolution work? You need a overwhelming tide of support for change, a very well-informed and practical leader that everyone trusts, communications from that leader that no one can block, and a coldly executed, relentless, LONG TERM strategy. Guess what, we've got all of that now regardless of what Democrat ends up in the White House. Bernie Sanders, along with Elizabeth Warren, have more political clout than anyone else in the ascendant Progressive wing of the Democrat Party.

What we don't need now are short-term, feel good, stamp-your-feet symbolic acts that betray our long term goals. Such behavior is both immoral and a waste of precious political power.

Why immoral? Because no sane moral person would sacrifice the lives of 3,000 people so they could make the theoretical point they are not being given a choice to save 5,000! Actually that's a bad analogy, because the lives and well-being of millions of people will be lost if ANY Republican gets into the White House next year. Only a fool would take that chance. And even if Hillary starts down some bloody wrong path, Progressives can hold her immediately accountable, if we follow Bernie's and Elizabeth's lead and put a sufficient number of those Progressives into the Senate and House.

Why a waste of political power? The proof is in the oligarchs' strategy over the last 60+ years and the success Bernie has already achieved and can now capitalize on in our Progressive revolution.

The Koch brothers and their oligarch and corporate ilk have been patiently going about their takeover of the Republican and most of the Democratic party, and the Supreme Court, and key regulatory and enforcement positions from local and State Governments up, since the mid 50s. Ever since President Eisenhower told some rich right wing bozos from Texas (~ 1953?) that getting rid of Social Security was nuts, these forces (John Birch Society as one starting point) have slowly and methodically been working to undermine our democracy and take us all back to the good old days of 1900 monopolies, when America was basically made up of only the rich and the poor.

The oligarch's coup these turkeys have been trying to implement requires lots of poor and desperate people working so hard they have no time to even imagine a Democracy that could work better for them. This is politically impossible as long as there is a strong middle class, so for many decades now these SOBs have used a multiple step strategy where they simultaneously destroy the Middle Class and suck as much wealth out of individual bank accounts and homes as possible, transferring it into the pockets of the ultra rich. All that individual wealth and related political power the Middle Class accumulated in the 50's, 60's, and early 70's? Wiped out with a brilliant combination of tactical moves. Our worthy opponents have amplified the historic impact of automation on middle class jobs by outsourcing manufacturing and then importing the resulting products back into the US for even greater profits (Sam Walton's kids have betrayed everything he stood for). They have gotten rid of retirement plans and replaced them with 401K stock market "investments" that then crashed, after all the investment churn fees were collected of course. They combined those stock market losses with upside-down loans against a housing bubble and the financial burdens of lousy health insurance (at least until ACA for some) and uncontrolled costs for medical services. Now there is nothing for their kids to inherit and as the financial coup de grâce, most of this next generation of Middle Class and poor kids leave college with their own crippling debts. No money or equity in the family home to inherit; that was all spent on health care for aging parents. Just graduated a few years ago? Finally landed a low paying and/or iffy job? Need a place to live? No problem, but now instead of getting married and buying a house (you will never be able to afford that), we have these wonderful boxes (apartments) so several of you can move in together and share paying exorbitant rent for the rest of your life while you try to pay off those student loans. One more bonus, you are less likely to have kids, so less taxes on the rich to support schools, kid's health care, etc. Getting desperate? Thinking about declaring bankruptcy to end your student debt? Nope. Congress was already bribed so only corporations can do that.

Get it yet? These guys are playing a VERY LONG GAME where entire generations are both indentured and increasingly powerless. These are not impulsive short term actions, and you will never stop these guys with unthinking outbursts of anger. It is self-defeating to waste political power on distractions. Note I am not saying don't be angry. Just direct it at their weaknesses where it will actually do some good, and there are now some major weaknesses open to attack.

OK, so what's the real political purpose of the “don't vote for Hillary” meme. The long-term oligarch strategy only works if the majority of Americans are constantly overwhelmed and, even better, fighting over a daily barrage of short term distractions, and not concentrating on cutting these big money bastards out of our politics like the cancer they are. So we get an endless series of outrages: keeping transgender folks out of the bathroom, Ginger Hitler, voter suppression, Ayatollah Cruz, guns in kindergarten, no more birth control, Kasich Who, climate change is a hoax, etc. And now we come to the latest:

Hillary Clinton is sooo baad, the politically pure among us (an oxymoron, politics and purity) should all plan to throw away our vote on a third party candidate (not going to happen, so you just decided to not vote), or not vote at all “because you're pissed”, or maybe even vote for a Republican. After all, compared to Trump and Cruz, Kasich doesn't seem so bad, does he? Actually Kasich is much worse, given the damage he has done in Ohio and what he might actually accomplish as president. Best of all, Republican strategists would really love it if a significant number of Bernie Progressives get angry with each other and distracted enough to quit supporting Bernie's ongoing fight for political clout in the Primary.

Bull. It's a trick. Don't fall for it. Hillary Clinton, at her real or even imagined absolute worst, is infinitely better then any Republican. You have no choice in the November election if Hillary is the Democratic Candidate. A Republican in the White House with the Senate and House under Republican control (coat tails) would spell the end of our Democracy.

Now for the upside. If Bernie is not the presidential candidate, he will be back in the Senate with Elizabeth Warren leading the ascendant Progressive Wing of the Democratic party. Establishment Republicans and Democrats and the K-Street money puppets are scared to death of what's showing up in Bernie's polling results. Bernie is a political phenomenon sitting on top of a overwhelming tide of support for Progressive change. He is the most dangerous guy in the Senate for special interests, and they know it. They can not control him. Bernie has not sold out to a single special interest group. Large numbers of Democrats, disaffected Democrats, Independents, and even some Republicans have heard and enthusiastically support Bernie's Progressive message, and his combined voting block blows away many gerrymandered districts. He has collected ~$150 million dollars in average individual $27 dollar contributions. That's a huuuge commitment that will NOT fade away after the November election. We all learned a lesson when Obama told us “he would take things from here” back in 2009. Not this time. No one can control Bernie's communications with his supporters. He has his campaign's e-mail list and he can contact supporters any time he wants to ask for money to support the election of other Progressive candidates, to apply pressure on other politicians if they stray from support of Progressive issues, or to call for unified political action across the country, when that is required. That's real political power, not just a spreadsheet game to get slightly more votes than your competition in some single gerrymandered district.

This Progressive revolution happens if we continue to strongly support Bernie Sanders through to the Convention and there after. As far as I am concerned the “election” is basically over and Bernie won for all of us. Now it's time for the unruly left, Democrats, Independents, and rational Republicans to stop falling for bullshit distractions and follow Bernie and Elizabeth to create the country we and our kids deserve.

Comments

Instant-RunOff-... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#1

Nonsense, Trump would likely be better than Hillary, and at least he is a thorn in the side of the repug establishment, while Hillary is the epitome of both the Repug and Dem establishment. And third party is a much better choice than the criminal Bankster stooge Hillary. Get real.

ronsears 3 years 21 weeks ago
#2

Barn burning will kill, or at least chase away, all the rats, but you loose the barn and now you don't know where all the rats have gone. Ever hear the expression: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies much closer."? Also, conveniently ignoring who the Republicans would appoint to the Supreme court over the next 4 years is just plain irresponsible. Calm down, take a nice walk, have a drink, practice holding your nose, and help us all play to win the long game.

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#3

"Calm down, take a nice walk, have a drink, practice holding your nose, and help us all play to win the long game."

Your rationale for maintaining the status quo is astonishingly sad and pathetic. The game has gone on long enough. How long exactly are YOU willing to wait? At what point will YOU stop playing THEIR game by THEIR rules? When will YOU say to yourself enough, no more and never again? Open your eyes, open your mind and give your conscience a hard tug.
Get real. Get angry. Grow a pair.

"Everything Must Change" - Nina Simone : YouTube
https://youtu.be/vgX2EAdvFyw

#BernieOrBust 2016

ronsears 3 years 21 weeks ago
#4

Sometimes it gets crowded when many individuals are standing on the same soap box. This discussion is about effective tactics, not final results. I would hope from reading my arguments above, you would understand that I am at least as ticked off as you and many others about the political, big money, and media BS tearing our country apart, one outrage after another. I also don't think we have much time left before the money puppet's distortions of our democracy are no longer reversable in any normal political way.

But, that said, when you decide to participate in a political movement that impacts the lives and well-being of others, you take on a direct personal responsibility to focus your anger into coldly calculated moves that will actually make a difference, without causing injury to those very same people you intend to help.

And that's the point here. History has shown time and time again that acting out of anger creates a bigger mess. Was Nixon really better for the country than Humphrey? Was Bush II better than Gore? And again, remember the upcoming Supreme Court appointments that we will all be stuck with for a generation. I hope you realize these appointments are the final major step standing in the way of the oligarchs' victory.

The only nonviolent way to begin to counteract the oligarchs' systematic decades-long strategy, is to work inside the establishment Democrat's game, and patiently change it, step by step. And guess what, we have already changed the rules. Because of Bernie, Elizabeth Warren and other Progressives, the oligarchs are now more vulnerable than ever. We have assigned them a single obvious "brand." Leading up to the November election, every time one of their puppet PACs airs an ad, they can be attacked with the same branded message accross the country in every Federal and State election, for cumulative effect.

Finally, you should remember that Bernie choose to run for President as a Democrat, within the Democratic Party's rules, and not as a third party independent. That was a calculated political decision made after careful consideration by someone with a very sophisticated knowledge of effective political strategy. You might want to listen to him.

Instant-RunOff-... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#5

But contrary to common opinion, Hillary won't be just like Obama or Oh-Bomb-Ya as I like to call him. She is to the right of Obama, and is also vindictive even vicious. A borderline sociopath. Extremely dangerous:

https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2013/08/24/the-filthy-mouth-of-hillary-...

This is the next president of the United States ? In every case where Amazon provides a “Look Inside” feature, I was able to confirm the quotes:

“Where is the Gdamn fucking flag! I want the Gdamn fucking flag up every morning at fucking sunrise.”
-From the book Inside the White House, by Ronald Kessler, p.244 – Hillary to staff at the Arkansas Governor’s mansion on Labor Day 1991.

Fuck off! It’s enough I have to see you shit-kickers every day, I’m not going to talk to you too!! Just do your G*damn job and keep your mouth shut.”
-From the book American Evita, by Christopher Anderson, p.90 – Hillary to her State Trooper body guards after one of them greeted her with “Good Morning

“If you want to remain on this detail, get your fucking ass over here and grab those bags!”
From the book The First Partner: Hillary Rodham Clinton, by Joyce Milton p.259 – Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident.

“If you want to remain on this detail, get your fucking ass over here and grab those bags!”
From the book The First Partner: Hillary Rodham Clinton, by Joyce Milton p.259 – Hillary to a Secret Service Agent who was reluctant to carry her luggage because he wanted to keep his hands free in case of an incident.

“Stay the fuck back, stay the fuck back away from me! Don’t come within ten yards of me, or else! Just fucking do as I say, Okay!!?”
-From the book Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Inside the Clinton White House, by Clinton FBI Agent in Charge, Gary Aldrich, p.139- Hillary screaming at her Secret Service detail.

“Where’s the miserable cocksucker!”
-From the book The Truth About Hillary: What She Knew, When She Knew It, and How Far She’ll Go to Become President, by Edward Klein, p. 15- Hillary shouting at a Secret Service officer.

“You f**king idiot”
From the book Crossfire, p.84 – Hillary to a State Trooper who was driving her to an event.

“Put this on the ground! I left my sunglasses in the limo. I need those sunglasses. We need to go back!”
From the book Dereliction of Duty, by Robert Patterson, p.71-72 – Hillary to Marine One helicopter pilot to turn back while en route to Air Force One.

“Come on Bill, put your dick up! You can’t fuck her here!!”
From the book Inside the White House, by Ronald Kessler, p.243 – Hillary to Gov. Clinton when she spots him talking with an attractive female.

This ill-tempered, violent, loud mouth, hateful and abusive woman wants to be your next president and have total control as commander and chief of our military, the very military for which she has shown incredible disdain throughout her public life. Surely the people of the United States can easily do better than this.

— Ed Schriber Col. USMC (Ret.)
“Semper Fidelis”

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#6

Fear mongering, when used as a political "tactic", is an extremely cynical and desperate ploy meant to thwart and combat any dissent that threatens the status quo.
The Democratic party's unspoken message is always the same - - you have to stick with us because they are worse than we are. No, you're not. The scare tactics won't work this time. We aren't afraid of the dark anymore.
As far as the Supreme Court is concerned, I have only one thing to say - Merrick Garland, the corporate-friendly federal judge Obama nominated to replace Scalia. Nothing is going to change with Hillary as president. In fact, things will only get worse. Once she gets into office, with the help of her friends on the right side of the aisle, she will be able to do whatever the hell she wants - no matter how much pressure is placed on her. And just like Obama, but with a grin on her face, she will be flipping us off every chance she gets. Hillary's tagline could be - in so many words - "Don't fuck with me!". It's truly befitting of such a devious and overly ambitious politician like her.
We need and deserve better, now more than ever.

#BernieOrBust 2016

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#7

Instant-RunOff-•••,
I totally agree, she is extremely dangerous. As I said, Hillary will be worse than Obama, and as you emphasized, even more so. She is extremely vindictive and one can only imagine how many people are on her and Bubba's political hit list. Come to think of it, maybe the Vince Foster murder conspiracy theory isn't so outlandish after all.

As always, your points are comprehensive and well-sourced.

#BernieOrBust 2016

* Wish it were possible to make minor edits to a post without changing its logical sequence in the lineup. OCD is a real bitch.

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#8

"The only nonviolent way to begin to counteract the oligarchs' systematic decades-long strategy, is to work inside the establishment Democrat's game, and patiently change it, step by step." - ronsears

If the forefathers of our country had followed a similar path to the one you are advocating, we would all be swearing allegiance to HM Queen Elizabeth II. Rule, Brittania!

#BernieOrBust 2016

Instant-RunOff-... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#9

And if the citizens of the Czechoslovakia, GDR, Hungary, Latvia, Estonia and so on had all listened to Ronsears they would all still be goosestepping to the Soviet communist party marching band.

Mr.Wayne's picture
Mr.Wayne 3 years 21 weeks ago
#10

ronsears: The aim of any "tactic" is to acheive a "final result". You can't split rhe discussion by making that particular incorrect statement . The two concepts are joined at the hip.

History contains the American Revolution and numerous other major events that were angry and even more violent - and necessary for the future of our Country's survival as a free nation. I'm not advocating violence, I'm saying it has a valid historical commentary that gives numerous examples on both sides of the 'anger effectiveness issue'.

I have also grown weary of this, 'Bernie probably can't win, so vote for HRC to keep away the Big Bad Trumpmonster' rhetoric'. To this concept you add that HRC, at her worst, is way better than Trump at his best.... You make it sound like a proven fact. It is not. Here again, there is plenty of information out there on both sides of that fence. It is not a given... unless you're a psychic.

Also, you may believe that the only way to change the establishment is from within the "Democrats' game", but it smacks of "Too little, too late", as a viable strategy.

In my view, we could likely survive either a Trump or Hiliary presidency. Either one could seriously wound our democracy, in my opinion, with an equally dismal result. On the other hand, after a couple more years of being suckered by either one - maybe THEN our cultivated grass roots type movement will suddenly gain a big boost in political clout. Or (My favorite fantasy!) maybe HRC could bow out and let Bernie in. I feel much more confident that Bernie would wipe the floor with whatever he Reps threw at him. With HRC : She's given Trump (over the years) WAY too much smear ammunition and trump is way more than capable of loading up his canons with it, and letting it fly. I've combed through much of the documentation dealing with serious allegation after serious allegation of HRC's past exploits, etc. With that much shit available to throw, I cannot imagine that a fair amount will not stick.

Lastly, as far as I know, Bernie has not publicly spoken in detail about the actual details of exactly why he's agreed to back HRC if he does not make the nomination. He's said that he would.... but I've yet to hear anything from his own lips beyond that simple statement.

So - I have listened to Bernie, but he obviously has more to say on this if and when it becomes appropriate. Until then, this is all just second-guessing the motives of such a complex and profound thinker as Sanders... unless you are a psychic.

Instant-RunOff-... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#11

Well said Mr. Wayne. And I also don't buy this Trump is so much worse than Hillary rhetoric. The Repug Establishment call down Trump claiming he is a closet Democrat, well to the left of Hillary. The Dem Establishment claim Trump is more right wing than Adolph or Bush. The truth is likely somewhere in between. Pundits all claim to know what Trump is but no two agree. Me, I really don't know quite what to make of Trump.

Certainly he will kowtow to right wing social issues moreso than Hillary. But I suspect he will be much less of a warmonger than Hillary. He is a nationalist, Hillary is a Globalist. Globalism is the last thing on this Earth we need right now. A total disaster.

So I think it is an entirely legitimate position for a progressive to chose Trump over Hillary. And a third party option is the obvious one, everywhere but in the 7 Swing States.

ronsears 3 years 21 weeks ago
#12

Response to mr turn left @.. and mr instant run off

It is interesting you seem to base many of your arguments on hearsay testimony from right-wing gossip mongers (see below). There is no doubt that our probable next president, Hillary is a hard ass. So was Harriet Tubman and so is Angela Merkel. Try this mental trick out. Change the attribution of those quotes to, let's say, LBJ. Would you come to the same conclusion that he is a bitch? Or would you be comfortable saying the guy had balls?

As for the personal attacks on me, stop wasting my time. Address the ethics of "burning down the barn" because you didn't get your way. Remember there was blood in the streets in all the historic examples (American War of Independence, Hungary, etc.) of radical action you cite. Given the human cost that comes along with such drastic remedies, I again suggest we all have a responsibility to give our stumbling Democracy a chance and see if we have a path to fixing this mess. It is also somewhat ironic to me at least, that the type of "screw-you" retribution you seem to be advocating is the possible hawk behavior from Hillary that scares me the most.

So, once again, back to the main point. Sorry you are so upset. So are many other Progressives. But, there is now a very good chance Hillary will be the candidate. And if you are suggesting that voting for the Republican candidate would be a better choice, you are playing the game to feel good, not win. Again I remind you, your competition has been patient and relentless over decades and there are innocent lives at stake if we act imprudently. I also like the company I have in making this recommendation - a hero of mine named Bernie Sanders.

Regards your references proving Hillary is a foul-mouthed bad-ass:

I presume you folks realize there has been a well-financed industry working for decades to smear the Clintons. No question Bill for sure, and sometimes Hillary, could have made things a bit more difficult for their detractors, but you should not be surprised that you have been hoodwinked with most parts of that huge list of quotes attributed to Hillary. Specifically, the original source for all the quotes you cite is a right wing web site. This set of quotes was then whittled down and reposted at http://www.gopbuzz.com/blog/2013/08/26/hillary-hillary-hillary/ by Karen Watson. Here are some illuminating details about the sources for each quote:

Ronald Kessler is former chief Washington correspondent of Newsmax.com, "the #1 conservative news agency online..." and has a consistent habit of dumping on Democrats. For example, in a review of a more recent Kessler book, "Behind the Scenes with Agents in the Line of Fire and the Presidents They Protect" James Bamford of the Washington Post reports "the author simply milked the agents for the juiciest gossip he could get and mixed it with a rambling list of their complaints." "What is truly dangerous is the kind of National Enquirer-style gossip in Kessler's book. In the future, without "trust and confidence" in their agents, presidents will want to keep them at a distance, out of spying range -- and out of safety range, when split seconds may count." The book you cite, "Inside the White House" is summed up by Kirkus Reviews as follows: "A mixture of juicy but hard-to-verify gossip and anecdotes about presidents from Secret Service agents (sworn never to reveal secrets), White House housekeepers, butlers, maids, and cooks, as well as media figures and politicians."

A review of Christopher Anderson's "American Evita" by Duncan Black and Andrew Seifter of Media Matters in July 23rd, 2004 reports: "Andersen's latest effort is no different, trading in unsourced speculation and assertions presented as fact that, like his prior book on the Clintons, are devoid of supporting evidence. The endnotes section of the book could be a parody, resembling a computer-generated list of names and publications in monolithic blocks of text with no reference to particular information Andersen is purporting to substantiate. In the introduction to the notes section, Andersen acknowledges sources "who wish to remain anonymous," including "friends, schoolmates, neighbors, colleagues, advisers"; absent is any indication of whose friends, schoolmates, etc., they are."

Joyce Milton seems to have a great reputation as a serious author. But it is worth noting that her big revelation was that Hillary once told a Secret Service agent to pick up her bags using colorful language.

If you actally go back and research the origins of your next reference: "Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Inside the Clinton White House" by Gary Aldrich,..." you will find it described like this: "...may be more notable for the people behind it than for what it says." The book was published and publicised by individuals and organizations ultimately funded by Richard Melon Scaife, a major contributor to far-right conservative causes hell bent on discrediting the Clintons.

Regards your next source, Simon Maloy in Salon Sept 24th, 2015, states: "Ed Klein is a hack, a conspiracy theorist and a fraud. The one-time editor of the New York Times Magazine is spending the 2016 election cycle energetically rolling about in the gutter as he plies his signature trade: making up shit about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama."

Your next reference "Crossfire: Witness in the Clinton Investigation" by L. D. Brown reports that Hillary once called her State Trooper driver "A &^!@! Idiot". I called the guy who cut me off on the highway today the same thing. As I recall all of the charges in this book were refuted back then despite the best efforts of a lot of lawyers and a lot of money. By the way, on the Monica Lewinski thing, I actually knew the man who edited the tapes of Lewinski's testimony under the personal and very meticulous direction of Kenneth Starr. What was cut out of her testimony indicated that Monica had a target list of famous men she intended to sleep with, and that Bill Clinton was on the top of the list. The public of course never got to hear her testimony that indicates she was at least as much a "preditor" as Bill.

Regards Robert Patterson's claims in "Dereliction of Duty," Rob Dietz in Media Matters reports: "Retired Air Force Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson repeated the claim that when he worked in the White House in 1996, then-first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton "wanted to outlaw uniforms, military uniforms in the White House," saying it was a "perfect example" of how Clinton "does not understand the military." Patterson's story of Clinton's purported "edict" -- which he says occurred in 1996 "when he first arrived" at the White House -- echoes a debunked claim about Clinton dating back to 1993. And his version of how he learned of Clinton's purported plan to ban military uniforms in the White House varies with each telling."

There is one quote left, but I'm tired of picking up this GOP garbage. Please be more careful next time to avoid being used as shills for some Republican PAC sponsored BS.

Instant-RunOff-... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#13

So all ronsears can come up with is digging up some crap about the messenger is actually a right-winger so therefore everything they say must be bogus. Well, duh, I doubt people who print the dirty, lowdown on the Hillary beast are card carrying establishment Democrats, like ronsears here.

Equivalently Hillary is a paid servant of the admitted, criminal Wall St. Banksters so therefore everything she does is whatever will benefit those cretins. If you want to go into motivation, then motivation is the elephant in the room when it comes to the wicked witch herself.

Fact is, it makes much more sense to reject the corporate, Bankster stooges, be they Dem or Repug and go third party, end the Duolopoly. Maybe people in the 7 swing states will have to dig deeper into Hillary vs Trump if it is Hillary vs Trump question. But myself I would take Trump over Hillary. Trump is a gamble, Hillary is a certainty, a certain Bankster, Globalist corporate stooge. Who knows what kind of disaster those cretins will lead us into next.

ronsears 3 years 21 weeks ago
#14

Once again, I suggest "Instant-RunOff-... and "turn_left_@_the..." consider the facts and logic I have presented, and dispense with the ridiculous personal attacks. I admit that calling me an "establishment Democrat" is really a personal insult, but, in the interest of actually having a real conversation, I will reframe from responding to such nonsense. If you have read what I said, it should be more than apparent that I support Bernie Sanders yesterday, today, and most importantly, tomorrow, and that I am about as mistrustful as humanly possible of the current Democratic Party. I contribute to Bernie. I call for Bernie. I bought and gave away Bernie campaign signs and anything else I can think of to help out. I also listen to what Bernie actually says and try to fit it all into all the other facts I have, and see how it fits into an overall strategy to take back our country from the oligarchs.

I have also spent most of my professional life working on and leading strategy projects, often dealing with "wicked problems" and, guess what? Getting angry and making emotional moves without considering the overall history and the current context doesn't work, unless you are willing to accept major destruction of the organization (our country in this case) you intend to improve.

Here is the reality of our current political context and some "crystal ball" work to answer "Mr.Wayne's" concerns in a previous post. If you think about it, any recommendation for any political action amounts to at least an implicit "psychic" prediction. The practical rule in playing such strategy games is to make the logic for you predictions explicit. So:

1) It is impossible to create an effective third-party and related presidential candidates in all 50 states between now and November. Believe me, I would love to have a magic wand and make it so, but it ain't going to happen.

2) If any Republican wins the White House, they will win with coat-tails that will very likely maintain Republican control of the Senate and the House. That means we get a Supreme Court owned lock, stock and barrel by oligarchs like the Kochs. The means the end of ACA. That means the destruction of SS, Medicare, any controls on Wall Street, and on and on. If Republicans win in 2016, the game is over for at least a generation.

3) In a worst case scenario for Democrats and all the rest of us, the Republican Party may manage to set up a contested convention in Cleveland, and they could then put together an effective ticket. I can imagine 2-3 delegate votes that "attempt" to reach the required threshold for Trump or Cruz, and, with carefully scripted "agonizing desparation," Ryan is, oh so reluctantly, dragged in as the Republican savior. And because Ryan has held out for certain conditions from the warring factions before he agrees to accept (sound familiar yet), we end up with a Ryan-Kasich ticket. And that ticket could defeat Hillary, especially if she is weakened by not bringing in Bernie's Progressive folks. Extreme Bernie-or-Busters make this possibility MORE LIKELY. The good news is the Democratic Convention comes after Cleveland, so establishment Democrats at least have the option of putting together a politically rational response.

4) The other likely Republican convention scenario is that they do nominate a Trump or Cruz and doom themselves in the the November election, barring another on-shore terrorist attack. Even then Hillary Hawk would still probably win.

5) If the worst-case "3" Ryan-Kasich ticket happens, then the stronger Bernie's support is going into the convention, the more winning Progressive planks will be incorporated into the Democratic platform and Hillary's campaign. Almost, but not quite, in wishful thinking land, if Bernie's pledged candidates are close to Hillary and she does not take the first ballot, there is a slight chance the Super Delegates might do what is in the long term interest of the Democratic Party, and nominate Bernie so all those proven Independent votes and related coat-tails are brought into the Democratic Party in November.

So, now with cold calculation, consider these facts and possible scenarios, and select your next move to maximize the chances of a Democrat, either Hillary or Bernie, carrying forward the maximum number of Progressive planks into the White House. Here is where you end up when you gaze into your crystal ball with the explicit scenarios spelled out above:

First, you would be nuts to attack Hillary, given the catastrophic results for our country if she is the candidate and any Republican wins in November.

Two, to maximize the Progressive planks in the Democratic platform and Hillary's campaign, and to bring in the maximum number of Independent votes and coat-tails in November, support Bernie as strongly as you can in all the remaining Primarys to give him as much clout as possible at the Convention, one way or another.

Now, let's quit blogging and make some calls for Bernie and also send him the money we would have spent on an espresso or two.

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 21 weeks ago
#15

ronsears,

I tell you what - - as I asked you before (#3) - you tell me HOW LONG you are willing to wait for *real* change - and I will consider your facts and your logic - as it pertains to your argument in favor of maintaining the never-ending status quo. And whatever you do, please don't ask me for my definition of *real* change.

#BernieOrBust 2016

ronsears 3 years 21 weeks ago
#16

Dear Turn_left_@_the...

To answer your last question, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I honestly don't think we have much time left at all to turn this around and avoid a truly terrible political and economic disaster. From Bernie's polling I think we have good evidence we have arrived at a political turning point and that the most effective and least damaging strategy is to avoid a Republican administration in 2017 at all costs, including voting for a third-way throwback like Hillary. If we loose the Supreme Court, and cripple ACA, SS, etc., all will be lost for a generation, and we will live through what the Chinese call "interesting times" as that pendulum continues to swings left and crashes violently into the oligarch's control. I do not wish my kids and grand children or anyone else to live through that if we can avoid it.

By the way, I watched the town hall last night on MSNBC. Bernie was incredible, even better than previous discussions. Hillary on the other hand made me want to reach through the screen and strangle her. Maddow asked her if she would adopt some of Bernie's Progressive positions, as Bernie had suggested earlier, to win over Bernie's new block of Independent voters. She answered by talking about how many votes she had won so far in the primary, completely ignored the votes she will need in November to win the election for all Democrats, and said "No". Then she claimed that it was Bernie's responsibility to talk his supporters into voting for her if she is nominated. She is a conceited fool, who last night threw away a chance to begin winning over Bernie's voters. In fact, I bet she lost many Primary votes today to Bernie that were on the fence for her yesterday.

But, again, given what's at stake, it is up to the adults-in-the-room to persuade/force her to adopt as many Progressive positions as possible for everyone's benefit. That means garnering as many votes for Bernie as possible in the remaining primary states to give him the political power to beat her over the head with the Progressive positions that will get her elected. She certainly doesn't deserve the help, but the alternative is infinitely worse.

Truth be told, I am still hoping a miracle occurs today and Bernie wins big and I don't have to be expedient with Hillary anymore.

turn_left_@_the _light's picture
turn_left_@_the... 3 years 20 weeks ago
#17

ronsears,

I can tell that you are a good and decent man, but try looking at things from a different perspective. Immorality is waiting endlessly in vain for miracles to happen while innocent people suffer and die. We need to make our own miracles by challenging the establishment's authority and usurping its power. Optimism is not a game plan, it's a feel good coping tactic.
You have to accept the fact that Lady Patience is a tease. She plays you like a fool and always leaves you short. She will bankrupt your spirit if you don't stop succumbing to her charms and empty promises.

#BernieOrBust 2016

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