I have heard this claim on many talk shows, including Thom. No, he was not a traitor. Be careful how you label same.

Washington and the signers of the Declaration of Independence were declared Traitors of the Crown by King George as well, but is forgotten in History

Lee was an honored West Point Graduate. He was respected as a leader on both sides of the battle line. He lost. He not only lost, but surrendered to the opposing force with honor and dignity. Traitors are usually hung from the highest tree, or convicted of war crimes, then executed. That did not happen after the Civil War.

Was Sherman convicted of abuse of war powers with his march through the South? How many innocents/infrastructure perished because of his march?

Were mistreatment of POWs (on both sides) during the Civil War brought to justice? A: no.

Was Barron Von Rictoven (WWI pilot) a traitor? When he was shot down, he was given a military funeral, honored by military from both sides of the conflict.

During the Gulf War, captors asked why a tank commander had a picture of Rommel inside his Abrams Tank. "You don't know history, do you?" was the reply.

Today, there are screams from the left for California to leave the Union. Would they be traitors? On the Right, there are many in Texas that want to do same. Would citizens (or lawmakers) in both States also be declared traitors of the US?

I'm a transplanted Yankee now living in the South since 1959. I have seen (and abhor) the Back of the Bus signs and dual water cooler/restroom signs. Also glad to see the removal of the Confederate Flag from SC Statehouse grounds, but to remove monuments to eliminate history should be thought out carefully before doing same.

Comments

Dianereynolds's picture
Dianereynolds 13 weeks 6 days ago
#1

Stop with the facts, it destroys Thom's wish for a communist America.

rs allen 13 weeks 6 days ago
#2

***deleted duplicate****

rs allen 13 weeks 6 days ago
#3

https://pastexplore.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/general-robert-e-lees-treas...

There was no honor in what the south fought for, period.

You're right though, they shouldn't take those statues down, they should add to them. Ahem, maybe something like a scaffolding rising over them with a noose around their necks attached.

humanitys team's picture
humanitys team 13 weeks 6 days ago
#4

Thom has never advocated for Commmunism as you know it. Real change can only be made in the hearts of humans . Not a top down say as I say do as you are told model.

He does try and raise consciousness though and through this raising and belief in a fairer cleaner,healthier thriving world arms us with the wisdom on which to foster those goals.

Communism is not something that can be forced ,that was the problem .Yet in highly evolved cultures ,the natural order is sharing .Capitilism violates the natural order as it allows for the advancement of one being at the expense of another.

The common good is life ...in highly evolved cultures they understand this and would be impossible for them to fail to share their abundance .Only extremely primitive societies would create and think of charging increasingly exorbitant prices the more rare a necessity became.Supply and demand does not drive a highly evolved economic system.

Americans have no idea what they are doing to the planet if everyone lived like you guys we would need 6 planets to support us all .

Alberto Ceras 2's picture
Alberto Ceras 2 13 weeks 6 days ago
#5

Robert E. Lee was a traitor.

A short paragraph from a speech by a great man contained in:

The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglass, Volume II
Pre-Civil War Decade 1850-1860
Philip S. Foner
International Publishers Co., Inc., New York, 1950

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html

"The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro"

Frederick Douglass

*****

At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

*****

Here are a couple of paragraphs from a fine CounterPunch article:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/16/charlottesville-outrage-and-hypocrisy/

QUOTE

AUGUST 16, 2017

Charlottesville: Outrage, Hypocrisy & Obama’s Betrayal

by JOHN WIGHT

*****

In truth Nathan Bedford Forrest was a racist, murdering savage who after the war became the first Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. He fought for the ignoble cause of slavery and white supremacy, along with every other soldier of the Confederacy, and as such his statue is an insult to any conception of human decency. It is, indeed, comparable to a statue of Reinhard Heydrich or any other Nazi leader sitting pride of place in downtown Munich.

The ugly scenes that took place in Charlottesville, Virginia did so in response to a decision by the city’s authorities to remove a statue of that other famed confederate general, Robert E Lee, from a park there. Those scenes and the controversy surrounding the memorials, statues and monuments in tribute to the US Confederacy are proof that the Civil War never really ended – and certainly not in the victory for the forces of anti-slavery and racism that history would have us believe.

*****

UNQUOTE

Dianereynolds's picture
Dianereynolds 13 weeks 6 days ago
#6

For the idiot above that apparently endorsed the lynching of statues.

https://www.change.org/p/john-boehner-sally-jewell-secretary-of-the-inte...

rs allen 13 weeks 6 days ago
#7

Alberto,

Contento de ver que todavia estas pateando viejo.

Here's another fine CP essay all of usa needs to absorb and face themselves in the mirror to wonder my god what have we done.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/16/the-racism-at-charlottesville-is...

Dianereynolds's picture
Dianereynolds 13 weeks 6 days ago
#8
rs allen 13 weeks 6 days ago
#9

That's okay # 6, though I don't know why you'd want to vilify Lincoln.

I'm not wedded to hanging treasonous white supremists in effigy. How about we instead just make those statues into public urinals?

gumball's picture
gumball 13 weeks 6 days ago
#10
Quote humanitys team:Communism is not something that can be forced ,that was the problem .Yet in highly evolved cultures ,the natural order is sharing .Capitilism violates the natural order as it allows for the advancement of one being at the expense of another.

What culture would you point to as an example?

Alberto Ceras 2's picture
Alberto Ceras 2 13 weeks 6 days ago
#11
Quote rs allen:

I'm not wedded to hanging treasonous white supremists in effigy. How about we instead just make those statues into public urinals?

Great idea.

rs allen 13 weeks 6 days ago
#12

reply #8

They weren't allowed to clean up because they were either arrested or run out of town.

So what's your excuse? White america wasn't cleaned up any it's contiued messes scattered all across the globe (let me check my watch), some 300 years later and still counting.

Coalage3 13 weeks 6 days ago
#13

Trump, for once, asked a valid question. Where does it stop? Do you include Washington, Jefferson? They were slave owners after all. Change Mount Rushmore? I hear some group is wanting to take down a statue of Teddy Roosevelt because he was supposed to be a bigot. Supposedly the Lincoln Memorial has already been vandalized.

And who is going to decide? The mob?

LMAC's picture
LMAC 13 weeks 6 days ago
#14

I am cousin to a confederate general who died in battle and I visited his grave and read about him. Yes he was wrong, yes his beliefs were misguided and yes evil but I cant help feeling sorry for him as he was misguided but also heroic. I cannot find a way to hate him. We too easily demonize people. We need to deal with our past and not hide from it. We need to hate the evil deeds but not the people. At least not all of them.

leontrollski's picture
leontrollski 13 weeks 5 days ago
#15
Quote xcergy:

I have heard this claim on many talk shows, including Thom. No, he was not a traitor. Be careful how you label same.

"Washington and the signers of the Declaration of Independence were declared Traitors of the Crown by King George as well, but is forgotten in History."

Of course Washington and the signers were traitors to the Crown But unlike Lee they won their war so their label was changed to Patriots.

"Lee was an honored West Point Graduate. He was respected as a leader on both sides of the battle line. He lost. He not only lost, but surrendered to the opposing force with honor and dignity. Traitors are usually hung from the highest tree, or convicted of war crimes, then executed. That did not happen after the Civil War."

Lee may have been honored and respected in some quarters but by taking up arms against the federal government he was by definition a traitor.

"Was Sherman convicted of abuse of war powers with his march through the South? How many innocents/infrastructure perished because of his march?"

Lack of a conviction does not mean Sherman was innocent of war crimes. I means it was expedient for the federal government not to try him. Indeed in later years he went on to further sully his legacy by sanctioning genocidal war on Native Americans.

" IWere mistreatment of POWs (on both sides) during the Civil War brought to justice? A: no."

Again expediency not justice.

"Was Barron Von Rictoven (WWI pilot) a traitor? When he was shot down, he was given a military funeral, honored by military from both sides of the conflict."

Von Richthoven was a German flying in service to the German state whatever the lack of merit that his cause had. He was therefore not a traitor and his military funeral was a customary pilots burial writ large because of his fame.

"During the Gulf War, captors asked why a tank commander had a picture of Rommel inside his Abrams Tank. "You don't know history, do you?" was the reply."

It seems the questioner did know history. Rommel was well known to be a Hitler fan boy and only turned to plotting against the Fuhrer when it became evident that the total destruction of Germany might be avoided by getting rid of Hitler.

"Today, there are screams from the left for California to leave the Union. Would they be traitors? On the Right, there are many in Texas that want to do same. Would citizens (or lawmakers) in both States also be declared traitors of the US?"

Yup.

"I'm a transplanted Yankee now living in the South since 1959. I have seen (and abhor) the Back of the Bus signs and dual water cooler/restroom signs. Also glad to see the removal of the Confederate Flag from SC Statehouse grounds, but to remove monuments to eliminate history should be thought out carefully before doing same."

Think it through again and ask yourself why traitors should be memorialized especially those who led multitudes to their death in a cause that should have been recognized as hopeless from the start. Bet you haven't seen any Benedict Arnold statues lately.

Dianereynolds's picture
Dianereynolds 13 weeks 5 days ago
#16

Ever ask yourself why all the statues on the leftie/socialist most hated list are all of democrats?

rs allen 13 weeks 5 days ago
#17

Aside from the fact that the CSA did not have any political designations within it's body politics; the point of your inane question/statement dizzyrenolds, is what?

jlgilder1's picture
jlgilder1 13 weeks 4 days ago
#18

Comparing the Traitors of the South, who fought to have their freedom to continue having Slaves, to the founding fathers who were labeled Traitors in pursuit of primarily Tax issues, is rediculous.

jlgilder1's picture
jlgilder1 13 weeks 4 days ago
#19

Difference being, TJ and GW did not lead a revolt that killed over 300,000 northerner's, in an effort to prolongue the Slave Market.

jlgilder1's picture
jlgilder1 13 weeks 4 days ago
#20

Communism is a type of Economy.

Dictatorship is a type of Government Rule.

naturesmasterpieces's picture
naturesmasterpieces 13 weeks 4 days ago
#21

What you're talking about was called Labeling and Damning by the late Dr. Albert Ellis, and it doesn't help, and often hurts our ability to resolve conflicts. We each have the right to want whatever we want, and like or dislike whatever we want to. It's enough to simply say "I don't like...." or "I don't agree....". Inevitaebly, labeling and damning ends up being over generalization. Some "good" people can have some bad ideas, and "bad" people can have some good ideas. It's always better to deal with ideas, or behaviors rather than label and damn a person. It may help you with those who agree with you, but certainly won't help resolve conflicts with those who don't.

jlgilder1's picture
jlgilder1 13 weeks 4 days ago
#22

When "bad ideas" lead to massive inhumane actions, they become more than ideas and the forces that facilitated such acts, should be honored as a statue? Evolution @ work!

Alberto Ceras 2's picture
Alberto Ceras 2 13 weeks 4 days ago
#23

Damn all the "there's good in everybody" cowards. You would have reasoned with Hitler, naturesmasterpieces? You would search for and praise his good qualities?

Get your goddam heads straight, fence straddlers.

Coalage3 13 weeks 1 day ago
#24

"there's good in everybody".....you mean the way the media is covering for the violence of the Anitfa?

rs allen 12 weeks 5 days ago
#25

So dirtycoal what is it you're complaining about now? The antifa? Why don't you spell it out? You think it sounds cool or hides what that faction actually is? Here, I'll help you out after all its only a couple of extra letters: they are the Antifacists.

Now then doesn't that sound better already.

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Republicans Admit to Accepting Bribes, Why Aren't They In Jail?


The whole Roy Moore thing in a way really highlights in my mind how committed the Republicans are to sucking up to the very, very wealthy base. I've been referring to them for a long time as the owners of the Republican Party, but they're also the ones that keep the Republican Party in power. They're also the supporters of the Republican Party.