In Japan during the second world war, America only won by systematically fire bombing every major city in Japan to a destruction level of 60-90%, a war crime, then dropping two nuclear bombs on civilian targets. The fact is America won against the tough Japanese military ,by systematically killing the mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and elders of the brave Japanese fighter, a cowardly barbarous war crime that even the psychopath General Curtis Lemay would later own up too.

Defence Secretary Robert McNamara under both JFK and Johnson said that both he and General Curtis Lemay were behaving criminally towards the Japanese at the end of the second world war. He went so far as to say Lemay had stated that if they had lost the war, they would have been arrested and tried on war crimes. Far cry from the American bullshit about saving US lives by kiling everyone else, including families of the enemy. McNamara then went on to say that dropping those two nuclear bombs were unnecessary, that a civilized society should exercise what he called 'proportionality'. . McNarama said to kill over a quarter of a million people (civilians)who were all but defeated wasn't proportional. But the American spin masters headed that off by creating part truths then turning it into whole truths.

We know that the US dropped two nuclear bombs to study the effectiveness on human targets. How we know this of course because both bombs were of different design and the US wanted to see which one had the most killing and destruction power.

One of the cities bombed was not even initially targeted to suffer the devastation it would later experience on that day it was obliterated. The original targeted city was overcast with clouds and therefore could not be accurately sighted and since this bomb, 'Fatman', was for study of a 'plutonium implosion type bomb', it was dropped on Nagasaki instead.

Further, when Japan finally surrendered the first US people on the ground at both bomb sites were not there to lend aid to those suffering severe burns, radiation and severe injuries, but instead they were there to study the effectiveness of damage caused by the bombs. The dying and suffering had to wait till data had been gathered.

America on those days went down in history as the only country to kill and incinerate 200,000 people in a nano second, just in Nagasaki alone. Considering the racism that was and still is America , there is no doubt racism was a very important factor in the choice and use of the weapon.

Americans were then told the lie that the bombs were dropped to end the war, where the truth was these bombs were dropped on live targets for study purposes. As usual the Americans the obedient unquestioning racist bunch they have trained to be , accepted the whole cock and bull story, hook line and sinker.

Comments

Tom Dorricott's picture
Tom Dorricott 1 year 33 weeks ago
#1

Zapdam: The atomic bombs, just like the firebombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities, ended the war and saved American lives. That is indisputable.

The Japanese political leadership stubbornly refused any type of surrender that would not keep the emperor on his throne with power. (Imagine allowing Hitler to retain some power as a condition of ending WWII.)

That the Japanese leadership refused to surrender even after surveying their hopeless military situation, the practically airtight embargo of their nation from receiving supplies, the horrible losses of life already suffered by their military, petroleum shortages so severe the Japanese couldn't send up fighter jets to intercept US bombers, and the draconian civilian losses already endured by their civilian and military population by the firebombings you mentioned, clearly demonstrates an invasion would have been needed to force Japan into capitulation.

Even after the first A Bomb was dropped, the Japanese military leadership refused to surrender, gambling that the US only had one bomb. Even after Hirohito finally decided to surrender to save his people from annihilation, a significant faction of the Japanese high echelon stage a coup to try to prevent him from doing so. (Doesn't sound like a rational government ready to surrender pre-A Bombs, to me.)

Whether or not the Atomic bombs "saved" Japanese lives as opposed to continued fire-bombing or invasion is admittedly subject for debate, although even Japanese sources, (including General Thakiliro Onishi-estimation 10 to 20 million civilian casualties) admit that an invasion would kill and injure huges numbers from both sides.

A lengthy siege was not the answer, either, as Russia, after Germany surrendered, was now turning its sights toward Japan and would have loved to either occupy it or divided it like East and West Germany. ( Not a good outcome for the Japanese either. )

The bombs dropped on Hirishima and Nagasaki fiffered in structure and composition not to test or compare them, but because they were the only types available. After Hiroshima, the US didn't have more in the breech of the same type. It was very difficult and time consuming to amass nuclear material. There was also hedge-betting, as no one really knew how well each one would work, despite ground testing. Had Japan surrendered after the first bomb, the second one would have been moot.

The Japanese " mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and elders of the brave Japanese soldiers" you mention were not just sitting at home praying and passively waiting to surrender. After the young children were sent to the countryside ( like England did during the Battle of Britain), the rest of the japanese civilian populace was heavily engaged in war support activity. Much of the arms and military equipment manufacturing took place in civilian homes, and many weapons factory workers lived in these two cities. In addition, and maybe of even greater importance, millions of Japanese civilians of all ages, men and women, were given extensivive and intensive battle training to fight during an invasion that was sure to come. These civilians were told that to die in battle would not only be the only honorable thing to do, but that to live under the occupation of the savage American troops would be a rape and torture filled fate worse than death.

Finally, as I have said before, the firebombings and A Bombings indisputedly saved significant amounts of US soldier lives not only by preventing a bloody invasion, but simply by shortening the war. US soldiers were dying every day even without battles, as that part of the world had dangerous animals, insects, diseases, and even routine supply and maintenance operations were by nature, dangerous.

The fact that the firebombings and Atomic bombs saved significant American lives is in and of itself justification. Generals and Admirals who don't put their soldiers first don't deserve their stars, and the American public certainly was willing to do whatever necessary to bring their soldiers home.

I Don't have to tell you, I'm sure, that the Japanese soldiers were brutes who tortured and killed civilians and US prisoners. It wasn't the dutch who attacked Pearl Harbor or who supervised the Bataan Death march.

Finally, Dr. Strangelove, I mean, former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara did say that he and LeMay could have been, if they lost the war, been tried for war crimes for the firebombing and A Bombs. This is true. However, Secretary "Mc Napalm-mara" also said he doesn't blame Truman for his decision . At the tome, McNamara supported the bomb.

It's easy to second guess and debate history while sitting in an armchair, comfortably sipping a drink, in a safe, comfortable environment.

But these leaders made the decision to drop firebombs and A Bombs to save lives at the time by forcing a fanatic Japanese Military government to capitulate. Not after one, but two bombs. I strongly support their actions, if for no other reasons that American lives were saved.

It's hard to express "proportionality" when your sons and daughters hade been, and were still in danger of, being killed and tortured by an aggressor nation of Bushida practitioners. Japanese soldiers and civilians didn't die because they were "yellow", but because they were an aggressor in a long, bloody war that needed to end. The German civilians in Dresden, Essen, and Hamburg weren't firebombed because they were white.

To think that would be illogical at best, and foolish at worst.

You are neither. Your blog does, however, provide a great reminder of the horrors of war, that sometimes fades when there is no draft or no skin in the game for the average American.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#2

Tom Dorr Your comment has been very well researched, thought out and very well written.

The truth is though that General Lemay was in charge of Americas actions against Japan and Lemay was psychopath, that attempted to get successive US governments in later years to drop nuclear bombs on both Russia and Cuba and thought nothing of the hundreds of millions that would have been incinerated in the process, this was the man in charge of the US Japanese campaign.

At the surrender of Japanese forces , first US responders to those suffering the effects of radiation and horrendous injuries ,were not doctors or nurses, but US scientists who were sent to study the effectiveness of the two different bombs dropped, that alone is an damning comment on the true use of those two very different nuclear bombs.

Like I stated the both bombs were of very different design. Those terribly injured or dying were after thoughts of the US military.

To skirt over the fire bombings of Japanese civilian cities, is shameful in itself. Firebombing civilian populations to a destruction level of 60 to 90% as McNamara stated ,in war is not a proportional response by a civilized society and is in fact under international law a war crime.

As to the statement of saving US military lives, that is truthful no more or no less than if war had never been started, its obvious . The US systematic murder of the families of the Japanese soldier in order to break the back of their resistance can under no circumstances be condoned or justified.

The last point of course is that of Americas overt racism towards the 'yellow man' and the dehumanization that had been a constant thread throughout the war. America is a racist society by birth, Americans are a racist people.

Having said all that, only in a free society would you and I be able to discuss these topics without fear of repercussions. Trouble is though, that today our 'freedom' is being constantly monitored and abridged by powerful forces who see freedom as an obstacle.

Tom i always welcome, value and respect your point of view and i thank you for your comments.

Tom Dorricott's picture
Tom Dorricott 1 year 33 weeks ago
#3

Zapdam: I concur that LeMay was nuts. to him, war was a numbers game. B-29 pilots also despised him because even though the planes were designed to operate at 30,000 feet, above Japanese flak and most fighters, LeMay had them drop down to a far more dangerous altitude of 5000 feet for "accuracy". Many B 29 pilots and crew died over Japan because this was the most "efficient" way to get the best kill ratio.

Le May also almost got us into WW III because he wanted to nuke Cuba, and actually was angry that the crisis was averted. A very scary man.

However, in terms of the Atom Bomb, Truman made that decision, agonizingly. The book "The Decision to Drop the Bomb" portrays this rather well.

I support the actions of the US in Japan as they did save US military lives, and maybe prevented many more Japanese from being killed through an invation or starvation blockade. Even so, the saving of American lives alone was worth the bombings, in my opinion. Your statement that American lives also would not have been lost if there was no war between Japan and the US is perplexing. The war was started, and not by us. And as I have stated previously, Japanese civilians were very much a part of the war munitions and supply effort, and would have fought American troops in the event of invasion. They were not innocents.

I have heard that a major reason scientists were sent ahead of doctors and nurses immediately after the surrender was to make sure the area was safe for them to inhabit due to the radiation danger. I cannot find information to verify this, but it must be noted that nurses and doctors soon followed.

As for racism being prevalent against the Japanese, that is true. It was a major component of propaganda in the Pacific. The Japanese also hed their own racially tinged propaganda against us, also. There was, in fact, alot of prevalent racism in the US in WWII. Young German prisoners in the US to work on the farms were allowed to eat in diners African Americans were barred from. There was discrimination in the service and civilian occupations back home. Women who worked the factories and did an exemplerary job during the war were shoved aside so the "breadwinner" men could work when they came home.

However, in the US, much progress has been made in the 70 years since the end of WWII. There is no Jim crow, laws have changed for the better, and Japanese Americans and Japanese are certainly not racially ridiculed, at least by whites in this country. Japanese Americans, like other Asian Americans in this country, have higher incomes than white Americans, although admittedly, they are discriminated against in exclusive colleges and universities.

I think intelligent reflection on WWII is very important if for no other reason than it truly shows how times have changed in the US for the better.

Thanks for your thought provoking blogs and intelligent responses.

Helen Willis 1 year 33 weeks ago
#4

Zapdam,

Read about what the Japanese military did to the civilian population of Okinawa during the last battle before the US dropped the atomic bomb. I'm not going to get into the fight over the correct number (70,000-150,000 I think is the current debate) they forced to commit suicide, just know that the higher ups in the US government saw the American film of them throwing their children off the cliff while the US translator begged them to stop. Truman said he thought he had probability saved Japanese civilian lives by dropping the atomic bombs, partly because of that film.

I don't think anyone can really know what was the right thing to do, but I can't condemn Truman. The Japanese were horrible in the areas they occupied. The Koreans and the Chinese still hate them. Read about the Rape of Nanking.

And the US generals hated what the kind of fighting Okinawa became did to our troops. Millions of Americans, British, and yes, Canadians would have died to take the home islands and if we hadn't gotten a complete surrender, the Japanese military gave every indication of starting a war of conquest again in 20 years.

There are no easy answers, but I think our leaders actually made the most moral choice based on the facts they had.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#5

" Truman said he thought he had probability saved Japanese civilian lives by dropping the atomic bombs, partly because of that film."

MASS murder by the US saved lives. Kind of like George W Bush standing on the deck of that aircraft carrier claiming victory in Iraq, but this time the yanks quadrupled the death toll this time to over a million.

" Read about what the Japanese military did to the civilian population of Okinawa during the last battle before the US dropped the atomic bomb." As if acts of barbarity by the enemy gives the Us a green light to out butcher the enemy. So civilized.

Helen Willis 1 year 33 weeks ago
#6

No, Zapdam, you're missing the point.

If we had to invade the main island they were afraid that the Japanese military would order or force at gun point all the civilians to murder their children and then kill themselves which is exactly what they did do on Okinawa. There are serious historians who argue this would not have happened because the main island Japanese viewed the Okinawans as not really Japanese and so therefore okay to abuse. There also are historians who say they would have surrendered soon anyway, but if you read the Wikipedia article on that battle you will see the US military wasn't nuts to think the Japanese military capable of incredible horrors. I mean they had been using suicide pilots and submarines for over a year at this point. Most lower ranking soldiers and sailors would do things like blow themselves up rather than surrender, so the US fear they would force the civilian population to commit mass suicide really wasn't unfounded.

You are aware of the fact that the Japanese in China, Indochina, Korea, and the other countries committed perhaps even worse war crimes that the Nazis? We let most, but not all of them off the hook. This was partly because we wanted to stop the USSR from occupying the territories the Japanese had held. And partly because probably the biggest war criminal was the emperor but we had gotten clear signals after the atomic bombs that they would surrender unconditionally, if they could keep the emperor, but not if they couldn't. It would have been hard to have a lot of public trials that implicated him and then have to explain why he wasn't charged. So they downplayed the war crimes trials in Asia. Again not a completely honest thing to do, but if it ended the war earlier, probably wise.

Helen Willis 1 year 33 weeks ago
#7

Oh please go read what Wikipedia has to say in the article on the battle. There is a subsection of civilian massacres. Okanawans are still fighting with the Japanese government over how this is reported in textbooks. And they pretty much say what I saying here.

The bottom line is that the military government that lead Japan into its wars of conquest that began in the early 1930's was horrible. They apparently actually encouraged rape and murder in China. They killed millions in Korea and Vietnam. Please look at the Wikipedia article on "Japanese war crimes." And if you have a strong stomach look up "Unit 731."

Unit 731 is the classic case of the US dodging war crimes trials. Yes, the US wanted their knowledge on biological warfare, but this is also one of the clearest cases where Hirohito personally ordered truly vile war crimes. The US got the government to surrender by promising to allow the emperor to remain, but the people of the US and most of the civilized war would have gone hog wild if they know what this monster had ordered and the US was going to let him live out his life respected in his palace.

NatTurnersGhost's picture
NatTurnersGhost 1 year 33 weeks ago
#8

And most HONORABLE way to die.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#9

Nat
Not big on suicide, but when faced with what they perceived to be the American barbarian, yes a much more honorable way to die.

Helen Unit 731 were responsible for some of the most horrendous acts of barbarity in the history of mankind ,for for these crimes at the end of the war the United States put these monsters on US payrolls to gain what knowledge they had gathered from the butchery and allowed them to walk away scott free. Many of these war criminals with the aid of the US gained full employment at some of Japans most prestigious universities ,hospital and industry, their past covered up with the aid of the United States of America .

http://www.unit731.org/

NatTurnersGhost's picture
NatTurnersGhost 1 year 33 weeks ago
#10

I'm no fan of suicide either, but HONOR is a big element of African and Asian societies. It ain't about being a "fan" it's about HONOR. I can tell you that I would take my own life and the lives of my children before I let a white boy take it. Real shit Mapleleaf.

Seppuku (切腹, "belly- or abdomen-cutting") or harakiri (腹切り, "cutting the belly", sometimes metathesized in English as "harikari")[1] is a form of Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment. It was originally reserved for samurai.[2] Part of the samurai bushido honor code, seppuku was used either voluntarily by samurai to die with honor rather than fall into the hands of their enemies (and likely suffer torture) or as a form of capital punishment for samurai who had committed serious offenses, or performed because they had brought shame to themselves. The ceremonial disembowelment, which is usually part of a more elaborate ritual and performed in front of spectators, consists of plunging a short blade, traditionally a tantō, into the abdomen and drawing the blade from left to right, slicing the abdomen open.[3]

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#11

Nat

I know the Asian culture quite well, each year I spend on average 2 months in South East Asia and as in in Japan ,honor is everything. I agree seppuku for many people of honor is a fitting way to die, just not me. I'd sooner go down fighting, taking some of the buggers intent on killing me with me.
Strange when suicide bombers wearing vests offer up their lives as their only way left of retaliation again an invader, as in the middle east, the west sees these people as insane. Trouble is in the cases of suicide bombers ,the men who put these in many cases ,very young individuals up to this, haven't got the balls to do it themselves. Honor and manipulation are the very opposite ends of suicide.

NatTurnersGhost's picture
NatTurnersGhost 1 year 33 weeks ago
#12
Quote zapdam.: I'd sooner go down fighting, taking some of the buggers intent on killing me with me.

As a true warrior in every sense of the word, I can tell you that goes without saying, But there are times when people are unable to fight back for whatever reason.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#13

Nat my friend your a great man and an intelligent deep thinker. Honor which is revered in Asia for the most part has been lost in our western culture, honor has been replaced with expediency.

NatTurnersGhost's picture
NatTurnersGhost 1 year 33 weeks ago
#14

Hah! Takes one to know one MapleLeaf.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#15

Quote Helen

"If we had to invade the main island they were afraid that the Japanese military would order or force at gun point all the civilians to murder their children and then kill themselves which is exactly what they did do on Okinawa."

Who told you this Helen, the American propaganda machine, the one that lies to you more times than it tells the truth.

As for Okinawa, civilians threw themselves off cliffs , to terrified to die at the hands of the American white devils. To them it wasn't a choice, it was the least horrendous way to die.

zapdam.'s picture
zapdam. 1 year 33 weeks ago
#16

Helen did i lose you on this one, are you shocked that your country would embrace and hide some of the most inhuman beings ever to walk the face of the planet....

"Helen Unit 731 were responsible for some of the most horrendous acts of barbarity in the history of mankind ,for for these crimes at the end of the war the United States put these monsters on US payrolls to gain what knowledge they had gathered from the butchery and allowed them to walk away scot-free. Many of these war criminals with the aid of the US gained full employment at some of Japans most prestigious universities ,hospitals and industry, their past covered up with the aid of the United States of America."

Shocked that your country do these things in the name of protecting freedom, lol. Well hiring the monsters of Japanese unit 731 wasn't the only deplorable act of America , besides dropping two atomic bombs on civilians, killing over a quarter of a million, children, elders, familes of the Japanese military, the US also hired and protected Nazi war criminals, the same people involved in the murder of 6 million Jews. It was called 'Operation Paperclip'. I have no doubt more than a few of those 400 nukes Isreal possesses are aimed directly at the US. You know the Jewish mantra, " never forget" and who could blame them.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/02/america-s-secret-govern...

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