Thursday December 3 2009

Quote: “It is a tragic mix-up when the United States spends $500,000 for every enemy soldier killed, and only $53 annually on the victims of poverty.” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

Hour One - Lessons from Spain…what we won’t talk about, but must!

Hour Two ”Everything You Know is Wrong” ”The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism” with Howard Bloom howardbloom.net

plus: “The End of Poverty” Phillipe Diaz www.theendofpoverty.com Opening nationwide Friday 12/4

Hour Three - Is health care going to take your guns away? Larry Pratt www.gunowners.org

111 Responses to “Thursday December 3 2009”

molmsted December 3rd, 2009, 8:06 am

And another 100,000 civilians dead.
Mark December 3rd, 2009, 8:35 am

What is it that causes some humans to glorify war? It cannot be denied. Those on the progressive, anti-war left don’t understand it, perhaps because they don’t want the prospect of being shot at to interfere with their lives. But many people, particularly Southerners for some reason, think that the military and the prospect of fighting an enemy is the highest ideal, and gives “meaning” to their existence. Officers especially feel “incomplete” without the experience of war; after all, war—or the glory of war—is their reason for being. Being a “great captain” in the military history books still has some pull on the imagination of some dreamers, but I have to admit that as I have grown older, accounts of the fight for justice (the Dreyfus Affair), and the defense of conscience (Thomas Beckett, Thomas More) have had a greater pull on my imagination.

History, as it has been said, is nothing but war and politics. So we are fascinated by Alexander the Great’s attempted conquest of the known world, marching with a modest army from Macedonia to India. Why? What motivated him to march his weary men thousands of miles in mostly tractless, arid conditions for no particularly purpose but personal glory? Why did Napoleon march all over Europe, in the process wiping out a whole generation of French men—merely for “La Gloire?” Although there may be underlying motivations involved—Hitler, for example, wanted additional “living space” for the “master race,” the agricultural and oil resources of Russia, and the destruction of European Jewry—most people fascinated by war are those who think in terms of the “glory” of it. Americans, of course, like to fancy themselves as above such petty considerations, and in a few instances—such as WW II and the subsequent reconstructions of Germany and Japan—the U.S. can rightly point to with some glad-handing. But other conflicts, such as the Mexican and Spanish-American wars, Vietnam and Iraq—motivations are much more open to question and doubt. It seems the weaker the perceived enemy, the less Americans need a moral justification to kill the “dark races.”

However, I think it is a bit hypocritical for some of us to express shock and dismay at Obama’s “reversal” of his promise; he never made any such promise to leave Afghanistan in the status quo. I have to credit Ed Schultz with being honest enough to point out to his listeners that Obama’s Afghanistan surge should not surprise anybody—this is what he told us he would do during the campaign, and many of his supporters readily agreed with this. Getting business done in Afghanistan should always have been the Bush administration’s first—and only—priority. It seems clear by now that Afghanistan served as a convenient pretext for the invasion of Iraq; Bush and Cheney had planned the Iraqi invasion before 9-11—they may even have secretly desired some kind of provocation (just not the kind that occurred). But for most Americans, we had an understandable motive for invading Afghanistan, but because we did not go there in force, sending most troops to Iraq, we find ourselves in the mess we are currently in. I have a difficult time in seeing how this will end well, but if it has a chance to, it has to be by the carrot and stick approach that Obama has proposed.

Obama is also giving this “surge” a definite timeline to work, or not. And none too soon for troops who have seen too many deployments. I have just read that many troops with “mental health” issues are being given “potent psychotropic” drugs to make them “fit” to return to combat. What will happen when these drugged soldiers return from combat is something society will be forced to deal with, since the military seems loath to do so itself.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 8:41 am

Louise,

I have not been able to enter the chat room since this new website was created. I have tried to get help from your webmaster, to no avail. I have downloaded the latest version of Java. Please help.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 8:43 am

Louise,

P.S.

I am running the latest version of Windows XP + updates.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:01 am

BLOG –

“A blog (a contraction of the term “web log”)[1] is a type of website, usually maintained by an individual with regular entries of commentary, descriptions of events, or other material such as graphics or video. Entries are commonly displayed in reverse-chronological order. “Blog” can also be used as a verb, meaning to maintain or add content to a blog.

Many blogs provide commentary or news on a particular subject; others function as more personal online diaries. A typical blog combines text, images, and links to other blogs, Web pages, and other media related to its topic. >The ability for readers to leave comments in an interactive format is an important part of many blogs. < Most blogs are primarily textual, although some focus on art (Art blog), photographs (photoblog), videos (Video blogging), music (MP3 blog), and audio (podcasting). Microblogging is another type of blogging, featuring very short posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:03 am

Mark,

Producers of the Thom Hartmann Show refer to this as a “Live Blog.”
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:05 am

Mark –

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over:

Taliban demand evidence of Bin Laden’s guilt
* Second week of airstrikes starts
* Taliban urges US to halt bombing

guardian.co.uk, Sunday 14 October 2001 22.19 BST

President George Bush rejected as “non-negotiable” an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan.
Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban “turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over.” He added, “There’s no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he’s guilty”. In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir – the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime – told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: “we would be ready to hand him over to a third country”.
more at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

Now I emphatically do not know what happened on 9/11. I do know that on 9/10/01 Bush had a plan to invade Afghanistan on his desk.

Bush planned to be a “war president,” as told to Mickey Herskowitz.

“War is a Racket,” as Gen. Butler tells us, profits for the very few, who democracy aside, always manage to overrun the overwhelming desire for peace in populations that know and experience war. Hence the recent “all volunteer army,” if the populace were truly engaged, American opinion would be focused, unlike the present.

As to the veterans (and my father was a pharmacist for the V.A. dealing with Vietnam era vets for years,) remember that in Rome, the conquering Roman legions were never to returned to Rome, they were given retirement plots in the newly “Roman” lands. The tragedy of veterans is well known and an implicit in every conflict.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:13 am

Geeky science note: LHC now most powerful collider, surpassing Tevatron, BBC reports. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8385891.stm

Thom, please interview Dr. Lisa Randall, Harvard, (author Warped Passages) about Branes, Strings and Particles and the LHC.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:13 am

Spanish Civil War:

For Whom the Bell Tolls — Ernest Hemingway

Sad, very good…
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:23 am

Spain did recognize the death of Franco with the return of Guernica to Spain. It used to hang at the Museum of Modern Art in NYC.

Hemingway’s “The Fifth Column” is also about the Spanish Civil War.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:28 am

Zero G.,

Yes, I saw it (Guernica) at MOMA. Horrifying.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:32 am

I spent a lot of time there, after seeing Guernica, and it hung so you could not miss it as you came up a stairway, I would take refuge with Monet’s Water Lilies…
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:36 am

Zero G.,

I was completely unprepared for Guernica’s size — 3.5 metre (11 ft) tall and 7.8 metre (25.6 ft) wide. As I recall, it took most of the wall. (Yes, I loved the museum, too, including Water Lilies.)
John December 3rd, 2009, 9:37 am

Who wrote the poem about the Franco years and what was it’s name?
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:39 am

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/PicassoGuernica.jpg
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:40 am

I’m Explaining a Few Things

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You are going to ask: and where are the lilacs?
and the poppy-petalled metaphysics?
and the rain repeatedly spattering
its words and drilling them full
of apertures and birds?
I’ll tell you all the news.

I lived in a suburb,
a suburb of Madrid, with bells,
and clocks, and trees.

From there you could look out
over Castille’s dry face:
a leather ocean.
My house was called
the house of flowers, because in every cranny
geraniums burst: it was
a good-looking house
with its dogs and children.
Remember, Raul?
Eh, Rafel? Federico, do you remember
from under the ground
my balconies on which
the light of June drowned flowers in your mouth?
Brother, my brother!
Everything
loud with big voices, the salt of merchandises,
pile-ups of palpitating bread,
the stalls of my suburb of Arguelles with its statue
like a drained inkwell in a swirl of hake:
oil flowed into spoons,
a deep baying
of feet and hands swelled in the streets,
metres, litres, the sharp
measure of life,
stacked-up fish,
the texture of roofs with a cold sun in which
the weather vane falters,
the fine, frenzied ivory of potatoes,
wave on wave of tomatoes rolling down the sea.

And one morning all that was burning,
one morning the bonfires
leapt out of the earth
devouring human beings –
and from then on fire,
gunpowder from then on,
and from then on blood.
Bandits with planes and Moors,
bandits with finger-rings and duchesses,
bandits with black friars spattering blessings
came through the sky to kill children
and the blood of children ran through the streets
without fuss, like children’s blood.

Jackals that the jackals would despise,
stones that the dry thistle would bite on and spit out,
vipers that the vipers would abominate!

Face to face with you I have seen the blood
of Spain tower like a tide
to drown you in one wave
of pride and knives!

Treacherous
generals:
see my dead house,
look at broken Spain :
from every house burning metal flows
instead of flowers,
from every socket of Spain
Spain emerges
and from every dead child a rifle with eyes,
and from every crime bullets are born
which will one day find
the bull’s eye of your hearts.

And you’ll ask: why doesn’t his poetry
speak of dreams and leaves
and the great volcanoes of his native land?

Come and see the blood in the streets.
Come and see
The blood in the streets.
Come and see the blood
In the streets!

Pablo Neruda
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 9:45 am

To Jason the Coward Caller

So the truth is crafted by the number of people that believe it? Good! Santa Claus DOES exist!

Cowards and Bullies are part of the same solution.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 9:46 am

Go Thom!

Jason is a scary cadavor.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 9:47 am

THX Zero G – I also Twittered.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 9:48 am

Reciting poetry can leave one in an emotionally open place.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 9:51 am

Was Jason ever in combat? My father twitched when we watched the news from Iraq on the tv. When asked if it was the footage bothering him he said…yes,,, these naive kids, they have no idea of who is behind these wars- My father had been a sergeant in the Korean War, and no longer voted Republican after Reagan, though giving Bush Sr a chance, then no longer ever did he vote Republican – war machine = an inflated economy built on hell when we could just as easily have heaven, but first, we must deal with these little bastards like Jason- Jason….wan’t that the name of the guy in the Friday 13 movies – no that was Freddie Kruger– help me out here, I know Jason was in one of those 70s? 80s? horror flicks.
rewinn December 3rd, 2009, 9:51 am

Hey Thom – you gave the caller plenty of time to insult you with sly and not-so-sly digs; it’s not surprising you called and raised.

But a more cheerful thought: we live in times that call us to be great. We may never be the Greatest Generation but the rise of facism in our beloved USA gives us the chance to show what we’re made of.

I find this to be an empowering thought. Love, not anger, will see us through!
DDay December 3rd, 2009, 9:51 am

The Obama Administration has been repeatedly throwing bones to the dogs on the right with little to show for his attentions but soiled shoes and torn cuffs. I keep waiting for some signs that our President shares the concerns of those who supported him last fall and who toil to remain hopeful. A nice gesture would be to fire up the anti-trust division of the Justice Dept. and oppose the merger of NBC Universal and Comcast. I fear the ramifications for our fourth estate with this marriage. Further consolidation of media cannot be a good thing for our democracy or for consumers.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 9:53 am

Profound, Zero G.

And frankly, I loved hearing Thom unleash like that. That is who I would like to hear more of! I actively send out links to Thom’s show and I do enter the dark depths, I am glad they are calling in and getting ‘Thom’d’. We all have to help, we all must make this a 24/ 7 duty.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 9:57 am

Zero G. and Food Fascist,

I agree. I loved your comment, Zero G.
DRichards December 3rd, 2009, 9:58 am

ACLU: Obama’s reversal on Patriot Act reform ‘a major travesty’
Key components in the USA Patriot Act are set to expire at the end of the year, but President Barack Obama is seeking to extend them, reversing his stark opposition in the past to the same provisions.

“The president’s reversal on Patriot Act reform is a major travesty,” said Michelle Richardson, Legislative Counsel for the leading civil rights group ACLU, in an interview with Raw Story. “There have been many, many abuses of power in the last four years.”

http://rawstory.com/2009/11/obamas-patriot-act-extensions-major-flip-earlier-stances/
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:05 am

Food Fascist,

I wish Thom would unleash some of that righteous anger when he has conservative guests…

…although, I have been called an unpleasant dinner guest before.
DanM December 3rd, 2009, 10:07 am

I would like to ask why is there not a push to create a detente for Pakistan & India to create a solution to have them remove their nuclear weapons. One of the biggest threats in the region is that Pakistan has nuclear weapons that could fall into the wrong hands. Also to have India and Pakistan de-escalate their troop build up would free up more Pakistan troops for the Afgan border. To me this would be far more effective than 30,000 more US troops.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:07 am

Thom put Jason in his place you can bet that Jason is in shock and feeling disoriented and hit in the gut. I tell you, these ghouls are are like Rooks on a Chess board. Far to the right, they are bullies. Far to the left and they are cowards, expressing each gradationally per their position switching in between the two extremes. Thom gave him a boundary, That’s what these ghouls do and require. They test their boundaries and it is us to us to place that boundary there. You can bet Jason had a little group of cheerleaders to whom he was trying to model how to talk to a Liberal and you can bet they all feel wounded right now because they finally ‘got their feel’ like the crew on the Black Pearl in the Pirates of the Carribbean, because normally, these sociopaths do not feel. They are zombies. Study Marshall Rosenberg. Child rapists, molesters, general murderers, they do it to feel, to feel a boundary, to feel period. Because these sociopaths need to feel vicariously, they impinge and witness the pain on another’s face, voice, being. What I am saying here is Jason called in to hear the mammoth rumble we heard from Thom. He had to use Thom vicariously as a ghoul needing a body to feel, needing a host from which to take breath and oxygen.

Time for a nice Ohmmm…..the original sound in the Universe which set ‘the tone’ of creation.
DRichards December 3rd, 2009, 10:08 am

The Economic Reality That No One Wants to Talk About

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-economic-reality-that_b_377167.html

Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich writes today:

The basic assumption that jobs will eventually return when the economy recovers is probably wrong. Some jobs will come back, of course. But the reality that no one wants to talk about is a structural change in the economy that’s been going on for years but which the Great Recession has dramatically accelerated.

Under the pressure of this awful recession, many companies have found ways to cut their payrolls for good. They’ve discovered that new software and computer technologies have made workers in Asia and Latin America just about as productive as Americans, and that the Internet allows far more work to be efficiently outsourced abroad.

This means many Americans won’t be rehired unless they’re willing to settle for much lower wages and benefits. Today’s official unemployment numbers hide the extent to which Americans are already on this path. Among those with jobs, a large and growing number have had to accept lower pay as a condition for keeping them. Or they’ve lost higher-paying jobs and are now in a new ones that pays less.

Yet reducing unemployment by cutting wages merely exchanges one problem for another. We’ll get jobs back but have more people working for pay they consider inadequate, more working families at or near poverty, and widening inequality. The nation will also have a harder time restarting the economy because so many more Americans lack the money they need to buy all the goods and services the economy can produce.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:10 am

Dan- you have it. And this is exactly why I giving Obama the benefit of the doubt. We know how these bastards treat their women animals and fellow man. Watch them with nuclear power. But still, we need a special strike team to get those. Someone called into Stephanie’s show this morning and said what will occur is some of our troops/ ops will drive the Al Queda/ out of Pakistan to a wall of US Troops to the north in Afghanistan. Perhaps the India troops will protect their own border to the south and we can sandwich the medieval crazies.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:12 am

Did I hear correctly that Thom “didn’t disagree” with the caller who said that Obama is NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER from Bush?

No change whatsoever?

This drives me crazy. We liberals can have such horrible political discernment — and it’s no wonder that a minority of conservatives control the country instead of us, the majority.

We throw our leaders under the bus if we disagree with them on any point.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:16 am

Well Pakistan has nukes because India has nukes because China has nukes because Russia has nukes because….
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:18 am

My thoughts are Grace that Thom was thinking our leaders throw us under the bus- at least that’s the way I am feeling. I think Thom may not have fully agreed with such a blanket statement obviously. but what he may have been doing was validating the caller’s anger and strengthening the need for the people to wake up and become sober to the urgency of our situation. He and the far left are sounding the alarm bells hoping the rest of sleeping America will wake up.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:19 am

@Zero– sounds like you could put those words to the ‘Hokie Pokey’ song. You put your left foot in, you put your right foot in – could be you got your Pakistan Nukes, you got your Chinese Nukes, you got your world full of Nukes and you blow it all up… that’s what its all about !
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:22 am

Well L Grace:

Understand that I held my nose to vote for Obama. I knew he was a centrist, DLC-type candidate who campaigned on escalation in Afghanistan. I only did it because of the extreme restrictions of effective choice by design in this faux democratic republic.

It was with full understanding that I would be in opposition to this and other policies.

I will not be silent.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:24 am

It bothers me that Thom would even affirm this blanket anger at Obama, saying he is exactly like Bush.

It is totally unfair to claim that you are betrayed by Obama, regarding Afghanistan.

Candidate Obama was perfectly clear that he intended to get MORE involved in Afghanistan and LESS involved in Iraq.

I disagreed with that, but I voted for him anyway. So did most liberals.

It’s irrational to be disillusioned for Obama doing what he clearly and repeatedly promised to do!
DanM December 3rd, 2009, 10:25 am

Its not just about isolating the crazies its also about Pakistan coming to terms with the “Frankenstein” they created with using terror groups as proxies to attack India. We have Bin Laden we helped create as a proxy to attack the USSR, and Pakistan has the groups the ISI created and supported to attack India. For Pakistan to regain its country back from falling into chaos they will need to make peace with India and then integrate the terror groups into the political process or imprison the most radical and intractable members. Until this done the region has no hope for peace.

BTW why is not AQ Khan not under arrest, he developed the Pakistan nuclear weaopns, spread it to North Korea and Iran. He is the most dangerous person in the world and yet Pakistan just released him from house arrest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/06/AR2009020603730.html
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:26 am

And if we don’t “turn ourselves around…”

“Th, th, tha, that’s all folks!”
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:26 am

Zero G,

Fine, but don’t act disillusioned or outraged.

You voted for this!
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 10:27 am

Someone on this blog recently referred to Zbigniew Brzezinski’s involvement with the Trialateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group, as well as his advocacy of a less-informed electorate (by way of corporate control over news.)

If one can assume the truth of that, it’s interesting that Brzezinski’s daughter, Mika, is a talking head hired by MSNBC to make Joe Scarborough more palatable. Now some Republicans are talking about Scarborough as potential presidential candidate with enough credibility to knock Sarah Palin out of the running (since Huckabee seems to be out of the running.)

Is this conspiracy or just a big, controlled, incestuous political ruling class/corporate excercise?

Chris Matthews and Republican political advisor Mark McKinnon discuss: (min. 5:50, video):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/ns/msnbc_tv-hardball_with_chris_matthews#34245782
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 10:28 am

s.b. Trilateral
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:28 am

Well Grace, where is President Obama – it ain’t like he’[s showing up on Thom’s radio show- he instead appeared on a right wing radio show. Instead, he reads Thomas Fried MAN for guidance on the environment and surrounds himself with free market economists. President Obama has never been a progressive and those of us who are progressives have never pretended that he was. We hold true to our Progressive Principles – we care about those principles more than whomever is in the Whitehouse, not that I can speak for all progressives, but it is my take. I do not have a crush on Obama. I am not willing to give him a pass on doing things I disagree with. If you want that, turn on CNN.

We voted for Obama because he wasnt McCain or one of the even crazier right wing NUTS.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:29 am

DanM,

I have a big problem with escalating in Afghanistan to deal with Pakistan.

It’s a hard lesson from Iraq, isn’t it? Many people wanted to invade Iraq because of Iran. This is just a crazy strategy — you can’t deal with a country by invading its neighbor!

If Pakistan is our biggest danger, then deal with Pakistan. Not via Afghanistan.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:32 am

Not exactly like Bush but,

Not prosecuting torture.
Continuing in Iraq – (Cancelling referendum amongst Iraqis which would have removed the SOFA that enables US Forces to remain, Green Zone to remain, etc.,)
Arguing to keep Patriot Act.
Reaffirming Gates.
Larry Summers, Tim Geittner, et al.
Rendition continues.
Bowing to Republicans at every turn.
yawn.
DDay December 3rd, 2009, 10:33 am

FYI Sen Arlen Specter is opposed to the Afghan surge. “Not worth the money or the lives.” Sen. John Kerry supports the Afghan surge.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:33 am

Outraged yes, disillusioned no.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 10:34 am

L Grace,

This “invade the neighbor” strategy doesn’t fly with me, either. That’s why I think there’s more going on, like the pipeline we’ve discussed.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:35 am

@zerog Warner Brothers cartoons ‘that’s all folks!’
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:35 am

>> Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:28 am
>> President Obama has never been a progressive and those of us who are progressives have never pretended that he was

I have to disagree with you on that point — I think the outrage we are hearing against Obama is because lots of Progressives and liberals had a fantasy about Obama.

From my perspective, Obama is pretty-much living up to what he promised as a candidate.

… not perfectly, but no president — nor any person! — perfectly lives up to their rhetoric.

My point is this — we liberals and progressives voted for Obama and we got what we voted for. There is no big betrayal here.

Furthermore, we are culpable for what is going on …. just like the conservatives are morally culpable for the gigantic mess that Bush made. The conservatives are a pack of weasels and deny everything or even blame it on us!. I refuse to be like them.
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 10:35 am

Civilization is based upon the systematic genocide/conquest of tribal peoples or anyone living contrary to civilizations viral/cancerous values. It all started in our culture with the rise of totalitarian agriculture, in that all the land on Earth belongs to us and if anyone is against us (such as “nature”) then they deserve to die.
While this mindset does not at all reflect ourselves or the human mind, it is there in our culture and a few actually believe it. Poverty arose because the conquerers wanted to make the conquered slaves or to exterminate or to absorb them in our ways. If our “cancerous” values were no longer made sense to us then poverty wouldn’t even exist.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:35 am

–We voted for Obama because he wasnt McCain or one of the even crazier right wing NUTS.–

AMEN!
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:37 am

In my best Porky the Pig voice…
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:39 am

>> L Grace,
>> This “invade the neighbor” strategy doesn’t fly with me, either. That’s why I think there’s more going on, like the pipeline we’ve discussed.

I missed the pipeline discussion but I heard Thom make his prediction yesterday.

It’s not much of a prediction — a pipeline between the central republics and India have been talked about for years. I think even some engineering has been done.

The other proposed pipeline that is forever talked about is from the central republics south through Afghanistan and Balochistan to the Arabian Sea.

Both pipelines have the problem of being indefensible to attack by the many radical tribes and groups in the area.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 10:42 am

L Grace,

Re: “Pipeline” — Scan Tuesday’s blog:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/2009/12/01/tuesday-december-1-2009/#comments
csavage December 3rd, 2009, 10:43 am

We all need to remember the chickhawk neo-cons named Jason out there. Remind them that Bush fired his first commanding general in Iraq because he, Gen.Shinseki, dared to say we needed more troops in Iraq and incited the famous quote from Rumsfeld-”We fight with the army we have”.We need to challenge them on how they would respond if a foreign country invaded our country-I’d daresay the would take up arms! Heck, they’re taking up arms with the thought of a Democratic president right now. We need to remind them of the continuous manipulation of politics our CIA did in that area. You’d probably see each of them massively backtrack from their position because they are parroting what they hear and don’t know the politics or the history of the situation. My favorite line to hear when I have one is “Well, I’m only a fiscal conservative, really I’m more liberal when it comes to……”
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:43 am

Now, if pipelines through areas benefitted those areas, maybe they wouldn’t be attacked.

Historically though, the extractive industries extract the wealth and resources.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:48 am

I second caller Barbara’s emotions — recall that song? And as for the caller afterwards, the Nazis took one real precious jewel: King Alexander Amber Room – bastards, they took down the walls and even ceiling and stored it away-

See- they are building hell while we are trying to build heaven.
DDay December 3rd, 2009, 10:51 am

Here is an example of how craven and disgustingly ineffective our Congress can be: Just days after the Salahi kerfuffle, three Secret Service Agents have been suspended and hearings have already begun. Eight years after Bush and Cheney tricked us into war and…..? Who are the real impostors here? The Salahis or these buffoons we’ve elected to office? Disgusting.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:51 am

Here’s the problem — a true liberal could never effectively govern now or in the foreseeable future. However, a true conservative can.

It’s unfair and infuriating, but that’s political reality.

Reagan and the Bush’s are further right than Kucinich is left — yet if Kucinich where president every single one of his initiatives would be blocked. He’d also likely veto nearly every bill that crosses his desk!

The government would go into complete stalemate — which ends up being a vote for the status quo.

So, given that reality, the best we liberals can hope for are pragmatists like Clinton and Obama.

I’m a middle age liberal and I’m happy if my president at least isn’t beating the crap out of America — and Obama is far better than that.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:54 am

>> Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:43 am
>> Now, if pipelines through areas benefitted those areas, maybe they wouldn’t be attacked.
>> Historically though, the extractive industries extract the wealth and resources.

Yes… and whoever is in power. In Pakistan, it’s the Punjabi ultrarich power families and their legion of cronies.

I’ve spent a fair amount of time in that region and have never seen a mega project help the locals.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:55 am

Waoh Gracie – now we see your true colors…

“Here’s the problem — a true liberal could never effectively govern now or in the foreseeable future. However, a true conservative can.”

Liberals are the ‘A’ students in the class room. the other 90 percent eventually see as we do- but after many reincarnations.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:57 am

Well I gotta go. By y’all.

I just want to add again — don’t throw Obama under the bus! He’s the best we can realistically hope for.

Work for total public financing of elections instead of beating up Obama.
Richard L. Adlof December 3rd, 2009, 10:59 am

@LGrace: Obama is further right than Kuncinich is left.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:59 am

You want to take that statement back L. Grace

Do you deny JFK could never have effectively governed. We would argue he did until of course, THEY killed him…

This has been posted here countless times, but I want to post it again, since it’s what we Proud Liberals consider one of the best definitions of BEING LIBERAL. Please share it liberally.
These paragraphs are from John F. Kennedy’s speech on 9/14/60 accepting a second nomination in his Presidential campaign, from the New York Liberal Party. (For the full text, see http://bit.ly/88tcP5 )

…What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label, “Liberal”? If by “Liberal” they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer’s dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of “Liberal.”

But, if by a “Liberal,” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people – their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties – someone who believes that we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a “Liberal,” then I’m proud to say that I’m a “Liberal.
L Grace December 3rd, 2009, 10:59 am

>> Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:55 am
>> Waoh Gracie – now we see your true colors…

You do? Tell me what they are!

I’m a liberal — surely left of Obama. But I’m a resigned realist about what’s possible in America until we take the money out of politics.

Bye for real, now.
Richard L. Adlof December 3rd, 2009, 11:01 am

@LGrace: We are not beating up on Obama . . . We are just asking him to do his farging job.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:03 am

Why isn’t A. Q. Khan in prison?

Maybe this is why:
from: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5518

In the article, just filed tonight, [Sibel] Edmonds reveals details overheard on wiretaps she translated during her time at the FBI, just after 9/11. Her disclosures to the Times reveal a maze of nuclear black market espionage involving U.S. Defense and State Department officials, that resulted in the sale and propagation of nuclear secrets to Turkish and Israeli interests. In turn, that information was then sold to Pakistan and used by A.Q. Kahn for development of nuclear weapons. The secrets were subsequently proliferated to Iran, Libya, North Korea, and potentially al-Qaeda’s Osama bin Laden, just weeks prior to September 11th, 2001.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:04 am

@Richard Yeah! and if he won’t do it- we will. Even if it takes us to infinity.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:05 am

L Grace- you did not answer my question about JFK
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:07 am

Love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal…Phil Ochs
loretta December 3rd, 2009, 11:09 am

L Grace,

I understand your realistic memory of President Obama’s promises about Afghanistan but I think the problem is that there is a tacit assumption that Presidential candidates must speak from both sides of their mouths at times in order to get elected. Because of campaign financing issues we have all come to accept the fact that people we back may be lying to “the other side”, just as the other side has lied to us, in order to get elected.

I believe that many progressives felt President Obama was merely talking tough about Afghanistan, just as he was framing other policies in ways that would be acceptable to less progressive voters. We were seriously deluding ourselves, obviously, but in the insane campaign practices we live under today our delusion is understandable. I feel we really felt that President Obama, with his compassion and wisdom on so many other important issues, was surely saying what he needed to say about Afghanistan, too, in order to get elected.

But we were very very wrong, apparently, or else we were right and the power structure in Washington has threatened President Obama, or “brainwashed” President Obama. It’s hard for me to believe that, if he were able to do what he truly wants to do, President Obama would bomb Afghanistan instead of sending carpenters, nurses, teachers, and business development experts.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 11:10 am

The “Gift” of Giving

I participated in “Meals on Wheels” and other community volunteer work for years. Recently, I’ve come up with a new “charity” outlet. I have alot of Republican neighbors, some of whom are incredibly petty. I have decided that, instead of getting peeved at their antics, I will try to do something positive or thoughtful for them whenever I can and without any expectation of reward or thanks from them. ‘Makes me feel better and leaves them happier, too (or at least confused! LOL)
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:11 am

@Zero G – is the soundtrack for those words like Madonna’s – “like a Virgin” ?
Richard L. Adlof December 3rd, 2009, 11:12 am

While I believe that leadership in the White House is confined from acting in the behalf of America’s citizenry by relying the staff they have put in place, I place greater blame on the leadership on the Hill. Between Pelosi in the House and Reid in the Senate we have a real problem to pursuing a progressive agenda. Both vote liberally BUT are lead by the more recessivist folk in their respective bodies rather than actually leading. Frankly, this would less objectionable if either or both of them were even marginal managers. If they can’t lead AND can’t manage they should abdicate their respective positions.

This is about the power of the buck over the power of flesh and blood.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:13 am

@ loretta

You say it all….

But we were very very wrong, apparently, or else we were right and the power structure in Washington has threatened President Obama, or “brainwashed” President Obama. It’s hard for me to believe that, if he were able to do what he truly wants to do, President Obama would bomb Afghanistan instead of sending carpenters, nurses, teachers, and business development experts.

Now what?
loretta December 3rd, 2009, 11:17 am

Food Fascist, yeah.. now what? that’s what we are all trying to figure out, huh. That was a pretty wimpy war protest last night. How about you?
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:20 am

Thanks to Food Fascist I just found a link to Jello Biafra doing Phil’s “Love Me”

http://www.last.fm/music/Phil+Ochs/_/Love+Me,+I‘m+a+Liberal
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:23 am

Loretta,

The demonstration at the Federal Building in Los Angeles numbered in the hundreds.
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:29 am

Well- there was a major protest in Los Angeles, I have put protests together in the past from my secret bunker which remains undisclosed publically, however, put no protest together yet as I am wall to wall just making a living right now and primarily blogging. My biggest campaign right now is getting listener’s to Thom’s and other progressive shows whenever I get a breath. I have turned into a 24/7 activist though, its a part of me now. I envision a candle of light that I become every minute of the day, so no matter what I am doing, I am radiating light. Now…we need to find those in the dark,, scoop them up and encourage them into the light. Yesterday, for example, I wrote the President of TeaParty.org and gave him links to Thoms show and encouraged him to listen and that I had heard on the program that Thom would like us to engage them and find common ground.

IF I am all wrong and the laws of the Tao with regards to polarity are correct however, every time we create a Mother Theresa, we also create a Charles Manson – so I do not want to be self righteous and like Roger Daltry of the Who sings -and if I ……….. ………. ….before if I smile and act like a fool …..oh somebody help me with the lyrics here…

Diversity must be enjoyed, but how do we embrace the afeared, so that they no longer do such heinous acts!

@zero g lol on the song!
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 11:31 am

Perhaps the answer is ….Ohmmmmmmm…….c’omeon everybody sing along!
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 11:33 am

Food Fascist,

Great thoughts! I will try to adapt them to my life.
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:34 am

Behind Blue Eyes

No one knows what it’s like

To be the bad man

To be the sad man

Behind blue eyes

No one knows what it’s like

To be hated

To be fated

To telling only lies

But my dreams

They aren’t as empty

As my conscience seems to be

I have hours, only lonely

My love is vengeance

That’s never free

No one knows what it’s like

To feel these feelings

Like I do

And I blame you

No one bites back as hard

On their anger

None of my pain and woe

Can show through

But my dreams

They aren’t as empty

As my conscience seems to be

I have hours, only lonely

My love is vengeance

That’s never free

When my fist clenches, crack it open

Before I use it and lose my cool

When I smile, tell me some bad news

Before I laugh and act like a fool

If I swallow anything evil

Put your finger down my throat

If I shiver, please give me a blanket

Keep me warm, let me wear your coat

No one knows what it’s like

To be the bad man

To be the sad man

Behind blue eyes
DDay December 3rd, 2009, 11:34 am

Since L Grace has apparently left us…in keeping with Thom’s policies…I can’t savage him/her over the “realities” which I disagree. I am not so downtrodden to set the bar so low. Our reach must always exceed our grasp.

I do however concur about the primacy of campaign finance reform in obtaining a better democratic future. No other issue is so important and central to our progressive aims.
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 11:35 am

Zero G.,

What power there is in poetry. (I also consider our greatest musicians to be poets.)
loretta December 3rd, 2009, 11:38 am

Zero, In Portland we had a little over one hundred people, I’m guessing. I was so glad to be there to speak to the activists. One of the male leaders from the radical socialist women spoke to me about the fact that capitalism is so at odds with what most women value that empowering women is still the key to change. I think he is talking about the “feminine” side of all of us, though, and that’s why he is a leader in a group of “radical women socialists”:-)
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 11:38 am

America Without a Middle Class — Elizabeth Warren

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-warren/america-without-a-middle_b_377829.html
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 11:44 am

One movement we could do is a New Tribal Movement. Reinstate the tribal-democratic values that humans had since the beginning of TIME.
loretta December 3rd, 2009, 11:45 am

Dday,

“I can’t savage him/her over the “realities” which I disagree. I am not so downtrodden to set the bar so low. Our reach must always exceed our grasp.”

What does this mean?
Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 11:55 am

OOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

and a bubble for Buddah. (See Wavy Gravy)

After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water.
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 11:57 am

NON SEQUITERS =P o_0
loretta December 3rd, 2009, 11:58 am

I love your wise words, Food Fascist…”IF I am all wrong and the laws of the Tao with regards to polarity are correct however, every time we create a Mother Theresa, we also create a Charles Manson – so I do not want to be self righteous and like Roger Daltry of the Who sings -and if I ……….. ………. ….before if I smile and act like a fool …..oh somebody help me with the lyrics here…”

thank you
Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 12:04 pm

THX everyone and especially for those WHO lyrics !

Exactly, I do not want to become a nutcase, but like a Lorax (lyrics set to Madonna’s like a Virgin!)

When my fist clenches, crack it open
Before I use it and lose my cool
When I smile, tell me some bad news
Before I laugh and act like a fool
If I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
If I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat
No one knows what it’s like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes

Thomas, tell us more tomorrow about this tribal movement – sounds fun!
Go forth and multiply!
Quark December 3rd, 2009, 12:06 pm

Thom,

Now for something completely different.

Last night the History Channel had a fascinating program hypothesizing the original intent and use of Stonehenge. Here’s part of the summary:

“…a new theory–that ancient people may have used the sound reverberations inside this circle to induce a trance-like state among participants in ancient rituals…”

It will be reaired Dec. 12.

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=514540
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 12:08 pm

o.0 ……………………………………
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 12:10 pm

……………………………….. Bye! =D (0_o I’s is watching yous!)
Thomas Jode December 3rd, 2009, 12:12 pm

Well I’m listening to you Thom, I mean I’m watching everyone else, …sort of.
DDay December 3rd, 2009, 12:17 pm

@Loretta

Sorry I was probably too cryptic. There several things about liberals being unable to govern that I don’t buy. L. Grace said they were only being realistic. ie. realities
I hate being told something can’t be done or that it isn’t realistic. We must reach for the perfect even though we realize that we will fall short. Or reach must exceed our grasp. I understand the complaint about liberals throwing our leaders under the bus when we disagree. It is a real concern, but, don’t tell me I can’t speak up and complain when I was one of those who worked so hard to get this man elected. That is especially true when he, (Obama), doesn’t seem to pay any attention to my concerns now that he has been elected. If President Obama won’t show progressives respect, then maybe we should give him reason to fear our disappointment. Our collect voices and will are more important ultimately than marching in lock step with our mouths shut like good little soldiers. We saw where that got the rank and file Republicans. The use of the word savage was hyperbole intended as humor. Any joke that needs explaining is a bad joke. Sorry
Loretta December 3rd, 2009, 1:05 pm

Dday,

gosh, you don’t have anything to apologize. My question was the cryptic comment…. but I am glad I asked it because I enjoyed your response.

“If President Obama won’t show progressives respect, then maybe we should give him reason to fear our disappointment. Our collective voices and will are more important ultimately than marching in lock step with our mouths shut like good little soldiers.”

I have been defending President Obama at every turn but his speech and it’s fervent call to war via 9/11 made my stomach turn because it sounded so much like George Bush. I feel blood on my hands here, and am not sure what to do as we don’t have the strong anti-war support we had for Iraq.

But in a way I am comforted but the fact that many people I love and respect actually feel the escalation is a “good idea”. A man I love very much wrote this to me…

“These bastards actually came down from the hills and cut off the arms of children that some of our military had inoculated for polio. These are religious fanatics who, if we do something similar to the awakening program in Iraq, and get the local tribal leaders to go after them, may be defeated. And lets not forget the drugs. Massive amounts of Opium and Marijuana grown there. Lots of money, for the few who have an idea of what the hell money is, to be made. Corruption is rampant. 18 months may not be enough.” He went on to say that the Taliban must be controlled before can do anything to help with building infrastructure.

I can’t seem to think of this. I only see women and children in the homes they work hard to build terrified by bombs. That’s all I can think of and I feel only guilt. Why can’t we use our military to stand guard while we help them build schools, libraries, roads and hospital? Why do bombs get the money instead of well-protected carpenters? I’m one of the liberals Mark is speaking about in his post. I don’t understand war.

I understand your joke now. I am sorry that my cryptic question made you feel the need to apologize:-)
Michael (Thom's Video Guy) December 3rd, 2009, 2:52 pm

Some people may feel bad for Jason, our caller that made Thom explode today, but that was Thom at a 6. You don’t want to see him at a 10! LoL

Just a fun Quote from “Step Brothers” that had us laughing in the control room today.
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 4:37 pm

Forbes magazine wrote an article on the happiest people on earth. The artcle was written sometime back. I believe it was Forbes but I hesitate because it is a conservative or a neocon magazine. The article said that the Northern European people were the happiest people because they had safety nets to help them in tough times.

The loss of our middle class is a strong reason to have safety nets in America for our people.
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 4:42 pm

Having different viewpoints is great if there is civil dialogue. Thom has persons on his show with different viewpoints. I find it okay as long as they do not filibuster the dialogue. I, personally, feel that some people really are clueless about the world around them. If you do not have a clue, you filibuster the conversation.
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 4:47 pm

A tragic mistake!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/opinion/01herbert.html?_r=3&ref=opinion
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 4:52 pm

SHAME ON ME!!!

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2009/12/02/fool-me-twice-2/
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 5:09 pm

Here are the final five paragraphs of Bishop Thomas Gumbleton’s homily of November 29, 2009. Bishop Gumbleton is a peace activist cleric.

I don’t know exactly how to react to that, except I remember Pope John Paul II in that last year of his life when he went to Spain on one of his international trips. It was about 10 months before he died and he was already feeling very ill; he was weakened a lot. But I remember what a newspaper report said about him when he first spoke to the Spanish people, hundreds of thousands of people, at the beginning of his visit. The reporter said you could see Pope John Paul was experiencing what the reporter called “a palpable sadness.”

See, this was just after he had pleaded with the leaders of the United States and the leaders of Iraq not to go to war, but we had gone to war again. So he was filled with sadness and perhaps that will be our reaction if we go more deeply into war this Tuesday. But then Pope John Paul began to cry out, “There must be peace! We need peace in the world! We must pray for peace. Let there be peace.” He kept repeating that word “peace, peace for the people of the earth,” and the reporter said it was like a mantra. He kept saying, “We need peace. We must work for peace. We must build peace.” That’s the only way that follows the way of Jesus.

So perhaps we too, as we enter into this Advent season and we look for this new coming of Jesus into our lives and the feast of Christmas, we must plead for peace, beg for peace, work for peace, make peace the constant theme of our lives so that in our individual lives and our relationships with one another, we will always be thinking of ways we can bring peace to ourselves and to each other.

But then beyond that, let’s keep on thinking of ways that we can try to influence the decisions of our nation so there will always be ways to bring peace into our world. Perhaps that’s the most important thing we could do during this Advent season as we wait for the new coming of Jesus, with the reign of God being proclaimed once more in our midst, that reign of peace and justice and love and joy that we will beg God to help us to be makers of peace.

“Blessed are the peacemakers; they are the sons and daughters of God.” That’s what we must try to be, especially during this Advent season.
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 5:11 pm

Please work for peace!!!
Gerald Socha December 3rd, 2009, 5:23 pm

The forgotten cost of the war!!!

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Forgotten-Cost-of-War-by-Paul-Rieckhoff-091202-290.html
daniel arcand December 3rd, 2009, 6:10 pm

Thank you Thom for standing for peace. We all lose our patience sometimes and I hope for a day when I can have as much composure as yourself. We as americans need to realize these are brothers and sisters on the receiving end of those bombs we are dropping. And what is it doing but causing more hate towards this country. Why do we not realize this is wrong?

Education not occupation.
Gerald Socha December 4th, 2009, 4:57 am

The path to peace must be the path to peace.

http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/12/03/worlds-religious-leaders-mourn-the-obama-escalation-in-afghanistan/?utm_source=Tikkun+Daily+Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=b86942f8a8-DAILY_DIGEST_EMAIL&utm_medium=email
Gerald Socha December 4th, 2009, 5:04 am

We cannot bomb and kill ourselves to security.

G. K. Chesterton has said, “Jesus speaks sanity to a world of lunatics.”

We have right now in Washington, D. C. lunatics running our asylums.
JamesV December 4th, 2009, 10:20 am

I think we fail to understand how much brainwashing we go through regarding war, and soldiers for that matter. We see constant movies glorifying war, much violence on television about war, we’re constantly barraged with others, who too, are brainwashed about war.

It doesn’t stop there either. I can’t think of the name, but there was a book, something like “What if everything you’ve ever heard is wrong.” It almost applies.

Clearly many of our problematic beliefs stem directly from the media, news, entertainment, and advertising. They shape our beliefs, and for those who don’t think there is brainwashing, all I have to say is they are likely the most brainwashed of all.

You can’t even get folks to understand the profit-motive in the MIC, even though Cheney actually worked for a main benefactor of these wars, Halliburton,and Bush’s family has been in the oil, and DOD business for several generations.

Hey, look at the fact we don’t even hear about their roots on the media over, and over, and over again. That is obfuscative brainwashing. In fact, that is the kind that is perhaps the most pervasive. They just completely ignore certain issues, discussions of the death penalty, looking at the roots of crime is ignored, instead focusing on the gory end-result details, and most of all, the MIC and its connections to why we have wars.

And are soldiers that noble, are they really fighting for America, or for corporate needs? Aren’t they, for the most part, just poor folks, some of them hugely brainwashed by all the rhetoric surrounding the issue? This brings me to another brainwashing ploy, the ennobling of the soldier, which is a device in and of itself, to get folks to sign up.

Will they tell you the truth–hey, join up, take a chance of being splattered, or coming back, when we’ll give you the minimum care, after making you wait for months, perhaps years, and maybe even leave your loved ones with you a vegetable in a wheel chair!!

Yea, that wouldn’t work too well, would it?