How George W. Bush screwed this generation of college students...
By Thom Hartmann A...
Every kid in America could have a free public college education right now if George W. Bush hadn’t been such a war monger. In early 2001, prior to the war in Afghanistan, the Taliban government in Afghanistan issued an edict to ban opium cultivation in that nation, saying it was a violation of Islam. (Opium is the raw material for heroin.) And it worked pretty well.
In 2000, roughly 4,500 metric tons of opium was produced in Afghanistan. In 2001, that number plummeted to less than 1,000 metric tons. The price of heroin went up around the world, and the number of addicts – particularly in Europe, Russia, and America – dropped. The Bush administration was so impressed by the decrease in opium production that it gave $43 million to the Taliban, to encourage a continued halt on opium production.
While $43 million may not seem like a lot, it’s important to put it in context. At the time of the deal, Afghanistan’s total GDP was just $2 billion, putting it at the bottom of the global GDP rankings. It was, literally, the poorest country in the world. So, for the Taliban, $43 million was a lot of money. George W. Bush’s decision to fork over $43 million to the Taliban to help curb drug trafficking, use, and abuse was actually a good choice, and a smart policy.
Now fast forward to the days and weeks after 9/11. On October 14th, 2001, a senior Taliban leader, Deputy Prime Minister Haji Abdul Kabir, sent an official offer to Washington, saying that the Taliban would be willing to hand over Osama Bin Laden to a third-party country, if the U.S. stopped the bombing of Afghanistan. Kabir said that, “If America were to step back from the current policy, then we could negotiate. Then we could discuss which third country.”
But Bush, the same man who, just months earlier, had handed over a small fortune to the Taliban government, rejected this latest offer of cooperation. Instead, he took up a “scorched earth” policy and bombed Afghanistan back into the stone ages. Bush’s decision to invade Afghanistan has cost our country over $713 billion since 2001. And that number is rising by the millisecond. In fact, every hour, the war in Afghanistan is costing We the People another $10.17 million.
The Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden on a silver platter, but we said no, and now it’s cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. But what if George W. Bush had taken up the offer from the Taliban, and even sweetened the deal like he did with the opium?
What if he did something similar to what he had done just months before, and offered to give the Taliban money, if they promised to cut down on terrorism and on al Qaeda’s presence and influence in that nation? We could have given the Taliban $2 billion, enough to double the nation’s GDP and make everybody in the country twice as wealthy, and it still would have only been a drop in the bucket compared to what we’ve spent on the war in Afghanistan.
And, if we had done that, we would have saved ourselves enough money to provide a free public college education to every single eligible student in America. As The Atlantic points out, according to Department of Education data, public colleges across America collected $62.6 billion in tuition from undergrads in 2012.
That means that the federal government would only have had to spend $62.6 billion to help make public college tuition free for every student in America in 2012. That’s less than 11% of what we have spent on the war in Afghanistan. The bottom-line here is that George W. Bush had a chance to get America’s priorities right, and he failed. Fortunately, he’s not in Washington anymore.
So now, instead of spending trillions of dollars on prolonging the Bush legacy of unjust wars, we should be spending those trillions on the things that will make America great again, like giving every eligible student in America a free public college education.
Comments
#2
Quote ChicagoMatt:Do most Progressives really, really feel like there is some secret society of "elites" who meet together in smoke-filled rooms and think of ways to screw over the middle class? James Bond villan style? Really? There isn't that voice in your head saying that's a little crazy/far-fetched/paranoid?
I know exactly one Vietnam veteran. He is, and always has been, bitter about how the war ended.
There is in sociology what is called the "Power Elite Thesis" (the book The Power Elite, written by sociologist, C. Wright Mills, the father of the theory, was published in 1956) that holds that the policy decisions in society are, in fact, made behind closed doprs by a relatively small group of business, political and military leaders and then the PR machine is mobilized to "engineer consent" of the public, in the words of Carles Bernay, the grandfather of the multi billion dollar PR industry, who got the American public to support the entry of the U.S. into WW I by villifying the Germans and getting the American public, who before didn't know or care much about the Germans, to hate them. More recently the PR industry got 70% of the American public to believe that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11. Some prominent advertizing firms right here in Chicago were behind that one.
In general, that theory is not even really controversial or even a theory anymore. Look ,for example, at Dick Cheney's refusal to reveal the minutes of his meeting with the energy industry execs in 2001 or the oil companies' influence upon that administration (of 20 cabinet members 15 were oil millionaires) or look at the military industrial complex. The examples are everywhere and ever more blatant now that money really talks. Anyway, not only progressives are aware and concerned about it, Tea Party and militia types are as well only they're silly enough to take the instruction of those same elites.
You need a larger sample for your survey of Viet Nam veterans' opinion.
#3
I'm going to believe what you say is true. Then the logical conclusion is:
1. The power elites have done a perfect job of subduing the masses. They factored in how many people would have to be placated in order to avoid a revolution. There is just enough wealth and opportunity out there to keep the masses occupied.
2. The power elites have won. In which case, some people who long for a return to the old ways (late 60s/early 70s?) sound just as out-of-touch as marooned Japanese WWII soldiers who spent 30 years manning their posts after the war was over, only learning then that the war was lost, and in some cases refusing to believe it. Or, like segregationists in the South in the 1980s, some 30 years after that debate was done. At what point do people, as practical, mature adults, move on and work with the system that they currently live under? Or, as parents are apt to say when their children don't like what's on their plate: "Take what you have and be thankful for it. There are others with less."
I will admit that my personal economic and political leanings seem very greedy. But will Progressives ever admit that their views are based partially on envy? People have more than them, and they aren't happy about it? So we have to take those people down a notch?
You need a larger sample for your survey of Viet Nam veterans' opinion.
I once heard Thom interview someone about gay rights, and how the opponants of gay rights are, literally, dying off, and there will be no opposition in about 20 years. It's true for opponants of the Vietnam War as well. I am 34, and know one veteran. My own father was too young to have fought in that war, although he did have memories of it, the way I remember the first Gulf War in 1991. References to Vietnam, if they are supposed to bring about some emotional response, will not work. (Not saying that's what you were trying to do, but still...)
#4
Matt, it seems likely enough that someone whose "personal and political leanings seem very greedy" (as you describe youself) would assume progressives are all about "envy" and taking someone "down a notch". But only a greedy, selfish person, comfortable and satisfied with the status quo, would interpret progressive values that way. It amounts to little more than a knee-jerk projection on your part. I suppose it makes greedy, selfish people feel better about themselves to simply assume that anyone wishing to create a more inclusive society is selfish too. But "saying it's so doesn't make it so", (to quote David in Vegas). After all, envy is just a selfish emotion. I hate to break it to ya Matt, but the progressive ideology has no resemblance to that. It's really about inclusiveness and simple fairness. It's about opportunities for everyone to have a life, one that's free from deprivation, tyranny and fear. It's about taking back our democracy and making it better, about striving for a "we" society in place of a "me" society. - Aliceinwonderland
#5
Quote Aliceinwonderland:Matt, it seems likely enough that someone whose "personal and political leanings seem very greedy" (as you describe youself) would assume progressives are all about "envy" and taking someone "down a notch".
Aliceinwonderland ~ As the saying goes, "It takes one to know one." I couldn't agree more with your analysis. I seem to remember a former drug addict once telling me that when he was high he thought that the whole world must be high too. He actually believed that they were just better at hiding it then he was. Funny how the mind can work.
Nevertheless, I still put my faith in that quote from Matthew--the Apostle not the blogger-- "You cannot serve God and Mammon" (Where Mammon = greed.) If you love the one you will have to despise the other.
Then find a nice like-minded Church you can pay off to help you convince yourself nothing is wrong with you and the bad guys are someone else. Anybody else! Churches, the ultimate enablers of the guilty and predators of the innocent.
#6
I counter with this one:
" Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matt. 7:1-5)"
That's why I don't look at people and say, "They have too much!" or "they don't work hard enough!" I was just reading another of Thom's posts about having a minimum salary for everyone, even if they don't have a job. I can support that. But I also read people riffing on the wealthy. I am curious, what should be the maximum salary? For some random, generic city (since we all know big cities are more expensive), what is the most that a person should be allowed to make?
Judging someone as being "too rich" is just as bad as a tea partier juding someone as being a "welfare queen". You're both still judging people.
#7
comfortable and satisfied with the status quo
Status quo doesn't have a negative connotation for a lot of people. If you're happy more often than not, then the status quo is working out just fine for you.
It's really about inclusiveness and simple fairness.
That implies that people who don't agree with progressive ideals are exclusionary. I disagree. But I guess it all comes down to personal experiences. It sure didn't seem like the liberals/progressives were eager to include people with conservative views when I was in college. The message I always got was, "If you disagree, keep your mouth shut."
Again, probably just my personal experience.
#8
Quote ChicagoMatt:You blame the elites. The racist blame integration. Evangelicals blame "godless liberals". Capitalists blame Socialists. Some people might even blame self-centered baby boomers. Everyone has reasoning behind their choice of culprit.
Don't call baby boomers self centered, Matt, they are and were less so than generations subsequent and previous. The real self centered generations, Matt, are mine, the Generation X, as it were, the "greed is good" generation, followed, perhaps, by your generation or the one coming after (depending on how old you are), judging from what you told us about yourself it might be yours, followed by this "greatest generation" who were so named only to take a pot shot at baby boomers - who were morally far superior to the "greatests" - in retaliation for boomers' calling those "greatests" out on their bullshit. The so called "greatest" generation was really two generations - or there was another, not popularly named generation between the "greatests" and the boomers that was too old to rock and roll in the '60s and too young to die in WW II. They were born in the Great Depression and teenagers in the '50s. They would surpass the "greatests" in self centeredness - but not my or your generation. The boomers were the least self centered and it is their thinking you are rejectecting because of your admitted self centeredness.
The blame, naturally, belongs to the ones in charge, the ones with the power to make things as they are. It's not the Jews or the Catholics or the Masons, the Communists or the Knights Templar but it is the rich and powerful who deserve the blame.
#9
Chi Matt -- The power elites have done a very good job. They have not done a perfect job. If they had done a perfect job Thom Hartmann would not be on the air. You really need to read "Crash of 2016"; especially, the parts about the Powell Memo. In 1970 he described the plan for the power elites. One can easily correlate what they planned with policies the republicans have been pushing and passing.
I think you need to quit looking at the views of progressives, and start looking at the policies that the dems are trying to pass. I think the key law that needs to be passed is "The Employee Free Choice Act". One more dem vote in the senate and it would be the law of the land. I think it would have leveled the playing field between labor and business. I always like to point out that my favorite metric of that playing field is inflation vs. unemployment. It seems are economy does best when each of those are hovering around the 4% mark.
#10
Quote ChicagoMatt:I counter with this one:" Judge not, that you be not judged...
ChicagoMatt ~ Nice volley! However, as Aliceinwonderland pointed out, it was you who were judging liberals and progressives as being envious and greedy. It was also you who proudly described yourself as wealthy, proud of it, and wanting of more wealth. Sounds like greed to me. How does that make me a judge? I'm just a listener.
#11
C'mon Matt, spare us the bullshit about what we progressives "think" and "feel". Enough already.
People who don't agree with basic progressive principles ARE exclusionary, because they think you should only get what simple necessities like healthcare, education, etc. you can pay for out-of-pocket. It is is all about exclusion. Conservatism is about compartmentalizing us all according to income or wealth, even around the barest necessities, and it is all about one-upmanship. Has exclusion written all over it: "I've got mine and screw you!"
You sound like you're sold on privatized education, Matt. And anything "private" is, by the word's very definition, about exclusion. If you're against progressive ideals, you reject the notion of us all "being in this together" and think it's every person for him/herself, that we don't need to care about each other in a society shared by all. If some kid's parents can't afford to send her to the best schools, gee what a shame. If you can't afford regular visits to the eye doctor or the dentist and wind up blind and toothless, too bad for you.
You assume all we do is "look at people and say, 'They have too much!' or 'they don't work hard enough!'" That's just a shallow, trivialized, dumbed-down version of things said in this forum. It doesn't begin to describe the breadth and scope of these discussions regarding class in America. Whether or not you've noticed it from your cushy pedestal, Matt, there's a serious class war taking place in this country. It's likely to get a whole lot worse before it's over, if it's ever over.
You can leave the blinders on and your head stuck in the sand if it makes you happy. Keep on posting these stupid, condescending messages about how simple minded, petty, envious, etc. you think we progressives really are, and how persecuted you well-to-do conservatives are for having "more", ad nauseam. But you won't be getting much sympathy here, except from Kend the clueless Canadian... maybe a few other like-minded individuals who pop up on Thom's blog from time to time. If you'd prefer a more appreciative audience for your take on reality, you've come to the wrong forum. Seems to me that someone would have to be a glutton for punishment, posting that shit here on such an ongoing basis. We have lots of fun picking apart conservative arguments, especially with so few platforms available from which to do it. Sure beats yelliing at the boob tube. - Aliceinwonderland
#12
AIW -- Bravo! -clh
#13
Aliceinwonderland ~ I stand with chuckle8 on that one. Bravo. Well said!! Very, very, well said!!!!
#14
Quote ChicagoMatt:I was just reading another of Thom's posts about having a minimum salary for everyone, even if they don't have a job.
Anyone ~ I'm totally blown away from that statement. When did Thom suggest that? I certainly don't remember. I remember him suggesting this for people who have full time jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone...
Quote ChicagoMatt:Judging someone as being "too rich" is just as bad as a tea partier juding someone as being a "welfare queen". You're both still judging people.
ChicagoMatt ~ Really? So if I think that a CEO of say McDonald's who is taking home $9,200/hr as opposed to $9/hr that their better employees make is unfair, than you are right. What do these CEO's do anyway, lay golden eggs? No CEO, executive, manager, or shareholder should ever make more than 30 times what their least earning employee makes. Any more than that simply isn't justifiable. 1000 times is wrong by any standard. Also, it is completely illogical that anyone involved in any food industry can pull in a greater income than the President of the United States. It's immoral! It's wrong! It's obscene! It's bad for business! And, it is completely unfair!!
Pay of McDonald's and Starbuck's CEO's
That is nothing more than money stolen out of the pockets of the workers--the very people who actually earned it.
The very idea that these workers are referred to applying for under poverty social net programs and are supplemented by you and I just so that their CEO's can go on stealing their money infuriates me. It should infuriate you too because they are also stealing your money.
#15
The power elites have done a very good job. They have not done a perfect job. If they had done a perfect job Thom Hartmann would not be on the air
Or maybe he's on in it. Has anyone ever seen him and the Koch brothers in the same room? Maybe he is one of them.
I'm kidding, by the way, in case that didn't come through.
You really need to read "Crash of 2016"; especially, the parts about the Powell Memo. In 1970 he described the plan for the power elites. One can easily correlate what they planned with policies the republicans have been pushing and passing.
I am purchasing my copy this weekend and reading it as soon as I get a chance, which will likely be the second week of June. You must realize that, even if this is all some huge conspiracy by the power elites that was started in the 70s and really took off in the 80s to keep the middle class in check - this is the ONLY world I know. Assuming people work between the ages of 18-68 (for an even 50 years), how many of those workers have any memory of any other system?
There are flaws, yes. But full-blown "revolution in the streets"? We are far from that.
#16
You sound like you're sold on privatized education,
No. I am sold on school choice, where the taxpayer funds are attached to the student, not the school, and that student can take those funds to any school they want, including a private one if they want. A policy which is very popular among underserved minorities in Chicago, by the way. But not so popular with the unions.
If you're against progressive ideals, you reject the notion of us all "being in this together" and think it's every person for him/herself, that we don't need to care about each other in a society shared by all.
I think we only disagree on the borders of that society. Many Progressive ideals (or Conservative ones for that matter) work well on a smaller scale. I think this is part of the reason Socialism works so well in the small, homogenous countries of Europe - where people have a shared culture, value system, history, etc... And not the 300-million-plus hodgepodge of value systems we have here.
If you'd prefer a more appreciative audience for your take on reality, you've come to the wrong forum. Seems to me that someone would have to be a glutton for punishment, posting that shit here on such an ongoing basis.
I actually enjoy the debate. It's no fun talking to people who think like you all day. (Talking to and debating with, not necessarily voting with...) Maybe i am a glutton for punishment. Never thought about it. I was told once that I am a contrarian - just taking the opposite side of an issue to be different. But I was a teenager then.
This blog is kind of addicting. I find myself checking it before I check the weather in the morning.
#17
Anyone ~ I'm totally blown away from that statement. When did Thom suggest that? I certainly don't remember. I remember him suggesting this for people who have full time jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. He said in his blog "Povery is Killing us" that only in Switzerland are they considering a minimum income for everyone. I'm so used to hearing how much better things are in Europe that I put those two together in my mind - they are considering it so we should too. My mistake.
Really? So if I think that a CEO of say McDonald's who is taking home $9,200/hr as opposed to $9/hr that their better employees make is unfair, than you are right. What do these CEO's do anyway, lay golden eggs? No CEO, executive, manager, or shareholder should ever make more than 30 times what their least earning employee makes.
I can't believe I am about to defend a ultra-rich guy who doesn't give a damn about me, but here it goes:
According to the searches I just did, the CEO of McDonalds made just under 9 million last year. And McDonalds has 1.7 million employees worldwide. If we bumped him down to zero and gave it equally to all employees, that would be a little more than $5 per year extra for each of them. Or a whole 22-cents per paycheck. Would doing that, bring him down a notch like that, really help his employees?
And isn't the CEO pay determined by the shareholders? And the employee pay determined by the franchise owners? Are they the ones you should be after?
When I was 16, I worked at McDonalds. I was the best damn morning biscuit guy around that summer. After the switch to lunch, I had to do the morning dishes, which sucked, but that's another story. I still have my first paycheck stub - $120 after taxes. Not bad for the mid-90s. In typical teenager fashion, I thought I was rich, and blew it all on video games. Anyway, the guy who owned that McDonalds owned 17 others. He determined the pay rates, not the CEO.
If you really want to stick it to the CEO of McDonalds, quit going there.
Also, aren't publically-traded companies somewhat legally bound to do what is in the best interest of their shareholders, not the employees? If it is in the best interest of the shareholders for Wal-Mart (which is not a franchise) to pay minimum wage, don't they have to? Can't the shareholders sue if WalMart suddenly makes their minimum wage $15 an hour, out of the goodness of their hearts?
That being said, I can also see your point that WalMart and McDonalds only get away with that because those employees get help from the government to survive - taxpayers like us. So good point.
#18
Quote ChicagoMatt[/quote:When I was 16, I worked at McDonalds. I was the best damn morning biscuit guy around that summer. After the switch to lunch, I had to do the morning dishes, which sucked, but that's another story.Dishes? At McDonalds? I've never seen dishes at McDonalds..but then maybe you have a McDonalds in Chicago that caters to a higher, more discriminating, class of McDonalds' customers. I'm surprised they wash anything at McDonalds. I've seen those videos of employees scratching their private parts and dropping food on the floor just to pick it up and serve it anyway.
By the way, have you heard about the maggots in the meat at Whole Foods?
https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/maggots-found-in-whole-foods-meat-c...
#19
Marc & Chuck, thanks for the kudos. Always appreciated.
To answer your question, Marc, Thom did suggest a minimum guaranteed income for all Americans regardless of employment status. Check out his thread of March 28th, with the heading: "It's Time For A Basic Minimum Income". It's a concept I applaud.
Matt, I'm all for "choice" when it comes to what books to read, what food to eat, what style clothes to wear and what brand of tennis shoes I want to buy. If all schools were adequately funded and provided for in this country, choosing a school wouldn't be so important and we wouldn't have this caste system separating the rich kids from all the rest. If we had a decent universal nonprofit system of healthcare delivery here, we would not be encumbered with a million insurance policies to choose from either (each with reams & reams of small-print drivel for us hapless souls to have to wade through). Point being, there is only so much choice that is truly beneficial to us and our quality of life.
I gather you have no allegiance to the teachers' unions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Your argument in defense of CEOs is downright silly. It overlooks the moral bankruptcy of any company that pays one higher-up nine million dollars for a year's "work", while steadfastly refusing to pay its real workers enough to live on. That is indefensible, no matter how you slice if or dice it. No one "makes" nine million bucks a year. And did you know that companies like McDonald's and Walmart have been guilty of wage theft? I'd like to encourage you to read that last paragraph of Marc's post #165, if you haven't already.
Socialism would work great here if only people could get more educated about what socialism actually is, and stop going ballistic at the very sound of the word. American's are so goddam brainwashed about such things, it really is pathetic. Regardless of one's culture, value system, history, ethnicity, etc. we all need a functioning. affordable, nonprofit postal service, we all need utilities, law enforcement, a fire department, libraries, medical facilities and transportation. And we all need to be educated. You needn't have the same values, beliefs, etc. to share such things were they socialized, as I believe they should be.
If there's one thing we can agree on, Matt, it's that this blog is addictive; also that debating people with different opinions can be fun. But I still do get pretty annoyed with conservatives at times, i must admit… - Aliceinwonderland
#20
Dishes? At McDonalds? I've never seen dishes at McDonalds
The ones in the back, like the thing that makes the shapes for the eggs that fit into an egg mcmuffin. Or the biscuit-making equipment. They wash it after breakfast.
I personally witnessed frozen maggots on the tops of cases of burger patties when they were delivered. We brushed them off on the conveyor belt between the truck and the freezer, so they didn't make it inside. I also witnessed/participated in resetting the timers on cooked food, without throwing away that food like we were supposed to. As I recall, there was a 60-minute time limit on serving a cooked sausage patty. Yet somehow, the 50 patties that we cooked at 5am got us through to the 10:30am switchover...
#21
ChicagoMatt: Oh, I see!
Quote ChicagoMatt: I perssonally witnessed frozen maggots on the tops of cases of burger patties when they were delivered. We brushed them off on the conveyor belt between the truck and the freezer, so they didn't make it inside.Really!? If there were frozen maggots on tops of cases then how do we know that they weren't also frozen into the meat as well? I stopped eating hamburgers a long time ago..no beef..no pork...no red meat at all..just chicken and fish. I know, I've also heard stories about those as well. I don't think maggots would be on the tops of cases without also being on (or inside) the meat. I think that people should read Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle.
Quote wikipedia:President Theodore Roosevelt had described Sinclair as a "crackpot" because of the writer's socialist positions.[12] He wrote privately to William Allen White, "I have an utter contempt for him. He is hysterical, unbalanced, and untruthful. Three-fourths of the things he said were absolute falsehoods. For some of the remainder there was only a basis of truth."[13] After reading The Jungle, Roosevelt agreed with some of Sinclair's conclusions. The president wrote "radical action must be taken to do away with the efforts of arrogant and selfish greed on the part of the capitalist."[14] He assigned the Labor Commissioner Charles P. Neill and social worker James Bronson Reynolds to go to Chicago to investigate some meat packing facilities.
#22
I guess if the Italians have a delicacy of aged maggots in cheese then maybe it's not so bad for people...just the idea of it is sickening...although, I hear that that particular delicacy is actually illegal in Italy now...not that it has stopped production on the black market. They eat all kinds of really strange things all around the world. I remember eating some really strange things in Shanghai....I don't even want to talk about it....but as a guest at a business meal...I had to eat it. Thank goodness my traveling and business days are over. TSA can kiss m' grits!
#23
If all schools were adequately funded and provided for in this country, choosing a school wouldn't be so important and we wouldn't have this caste system separating the rich kids from all the rest.I point again to my school, which spends less per student, and has better results. Yes, in an ideal world, every student would go to a great school. I'm sure the students who walk past the private schools with empty seats on their way to the overcrowded public schools really like hearing about an "ideal world" that could possibly happen in some distant future, instead of the immediate fix that would help a lot of students right now - attaching the tax money to them, and letting them take it to a private school if they want.
Every weekend about 30-40 people are shot in Chicago, mostly young minorities with gang ties - mostly the products of the public school system. I'm sure they're eager to hear about a good-on-paper-but-never-going-to-happen Progressive ideal. Or, how this is all Reagan's fault.
Ok sorry, that was a little over the top and out of line. I apologize.
Quote : I gather you have no allegiance to the teachers' unions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sort of torn. They make way more money than me, which I indirectly pay for. My property taxes rose 66% a few years back, mostly to cover pensions for retired teachers, not pay for new ones. But, it's easy for me to say, because I am not trying to raise a family with my paycheck - my bills are paid either way. I think you would classify my views as a "race to the bottom". I would gladly work for less than a public school teacher, but I am in a unique situation.
It overlooks the moral bankruptcy of any company that pays one higher-up nine million dollars for a year's "work", while steadfastly refusing to pay its real workersenough to live on. That is indefensible, no matter how you slice if or dice it.But is the goal to bring down the CEO, or bring up the workers? The numbers I put out there showed that bringing the CEO down doesn't do anything for the workers financially, but maybe only makes them feel a little better, like they got to "stick it to the man".
Or, from a different point of view, is the purpose of McDonalds to provide food, provide jobs, or provide income for the shareholders and franchise owners? It's technically the franchise owner's and shareholder's possession. Usually when I teach, I have a Dunkin Donuts cup in my hand. And when I teach basic economics to my students, I point out to them that Dunkin Donuts could not care less if I drank that coffee. There purpose is to get my money, which they already did.
If there's one thing we can agree on, Matt, it's that this blog is addictive; also that debating people with different opinions can be fun. But I still do get pretty annoyed with conservatives at times, i must admit…Yes and yes! Although I get a little annoyed being called brainwashed or having my intelligence questioned. Unlike SOME people who share my views on this blog, I try my best to be grammatically correct. (I see some people confusing "there" and "their", and a little piece of me dies each time.) The pressure to spell correctly, when you are an English teacher and this blog doesn't spell check automatically, is very high.
#24
I've heard that McDonalds can't call it's Shakes "Milkshakes" because there is no milk in them. I am ashamed to admit that I still eat there about once a week, out of sheer convenience. It's literally the only drive-thru I can get to and back during my lunch break, and sometimes I just want to sit in my car, eat my "food", and listen to Rush. I do a "Conservative sandwich" with my daily radio listening. Progressive in the morning and afternoon (Thom is on in the afternoon here), and Conservative in the middle.
My doctor told me I should give up meat, including chicken, gluten, sugar, and dairy. That lasted about two days. The sugar was the hardest part. Now I just try to reduce them as much as possible.
#25
Quote Palindromdary:Dishes? At McDonalds? I've never seen dishes at McDonalds..but then maybe you have a McDonalds in Chicago that caters to a higher, more discriminating, class of McDonalds' customers.
Palindromedary ~ A dishwasher at McDonalds doesn't necessarily include "dishes." You are looking at all frying utensils and cooking ware, baskets, trays, and filters. They all have to be rinsed at a specific temperature and then placed in a specific dish washer machine. One of my jobs--during my stint--was as dishwasher. The result enabled me to greatly appreciate the job of dishwasher; especially, when eventually given the job of dishwasher from a real family operated 'mom and pops' restaurant later in my internship. I could have stayed there for life. lol. In comparison, the job was a piece of cake.
#26
They all have to be rinsed at a specific temperature and then placed in a specific dish washer machine.
There wasn't a machine at mine - just a sink. I was the machine. I think I hated it so much because, per usual, the sink was too short for me and it hurt my back to lean over the whole time I washed them.
While we're on the subject of McDonalds - About 15 years ago I heard a lot of talk about engines that would run on fry grease. Suddenly you started seeing chains grease dumpsters behind the restaurants - presumably to keep people from stealing that grease. They claimed that the only downside was car exhaust that smelled like french fries, which seems like a bonus to me! But as quickly as I heard about it, it disappeared.
#27
Matt, Matt, Matt… here we go again. You conservatives are so damn condescending. "In an ideal world…."
Hey, you don't need an "ideal world", or a "Utopia", for every student to have a great school to go to. All you need is a government that actually represents the people, and prioritizes what is best for the people, to have great schools. It's all about priorities, Matt. Not about living in some fantasy lah-lah-land. And by the way, I don't believe our tax money should be paying for private schools, or private anything.
On to the next topic! "But is the goal to bring down the CEO", you ask, "or bring up the workers?" I hate to answer a question with a question, but in turn I have to ask, why "either-or"? The answer is…. BOTH. Bring up the workers, and bring down the CEO to a more reasonable level of compensation! Not so complicated now, is it?
I think the purpose of McDonald's is to pamper the franchise owners and CEOs with excessive pay on the backs of the working poor, while feeding the public maggot-infested, chemical-laced crap disguised as food.
Just remember, Matt: you are what you eat. Bon appetit! - Aliceinwonderland
#28
Hey, you don't need an "ideal world", or a "Utopia", for every student to have a great school to go to. All you need is a government that actually represents the people, and prioritizes what is best for the people,
I'm one of the people. So are the other 60 million or so people who voted for Romney (not that I did). So are the other millions of people who lean to the Right on issues. Your group of people seems pretty exclusionary.
I think the purpose of McDonald's is to pamper the franchise owners and CEOs with excessive pay on the backs of the working poor, while feeding the public maggot-infested, chemical-laced crap disguised as food.
That's why I'm all for more government regulation of the food industry. I want labels that tell me what exact farm the produce or meat came from, so I can make better choices with my health and my money.
This will probably go down as a right-wing cliche, but there is some truth to it: No one is forcing anyone to work at those places.The owners hire people to make money for the owners. If that person isn't making money, they get fired. That doesn't seem all that wrong to me.
From time to time, I hire people to do work around my house. We agree on a price, they do the service, and I pay them. If they don't do the service, they don't get paid. They aren't forced to do it. The house is my posession (just like McDonalds is the possession of the shareholders and franchise owners), and I hire people to help me with it. Based on your logic, my house actually exists to provide jobs for the tree trimmer/ window installer / and gutter people I hired within the last year.
#29
Quote ChicagoMatt:The numbers I put out there showed that bringing the CEO down doesn't do anything for the workers financially...But, if we add in all of those other top execs and the major shareholders...all raking in obscene compensation and profits... then the employees would be far better off than they are now. And the CEOs and other top execs and major shareholders would still be making so much money they would still be very well off. We really do need to have a progressive tax that will help to even things out. The more you make, the higher the tax rate with no special elitist tax write offs. Unless, perhaps the tax write offs are an incentive to bring our jobs back to the US, employing US CITIZENS.
#30
DAnneMarc: Thank you, now I know. I was thinking mostly from the side of a consumer who only sees the paper and plastic dishes, utensils and cups they give us to eat and drink from. Obviously, I've never worked in a fast food restaurant...or any restaurant. No one thinks of how those cows are slaughtered and cut up...or the very messy and probably very unsanitary conditions in which their food is handled...including maggots and bacteria or dangerous proteins like BSE (Bovine Spongiform encephalopathy--ie: "Mad Cow Disease")** ...when they bite into a juicy burger. There is no cure for CJD. Once you get it...you just lose motor control and shake, like Parkinsons Disease, until you die.
By the way, you may even be eating cancerous meat. Seems they were butchering cows that had cancer and instead of disposing of the cows, they would just cut out the most obvious cancerous tumors and then added the rest of the meat to the meat they sold to the public. Cancerous cells do migrate to other parts of the body and show no signs of cancer in those areas when they first get there.
Quote CNN:
Unfit for Human Consumption: How nearly 9 million pounds of bad meat escaped into the food supply
This is news from yesterday about the Petaluma, CA problem.
http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2014/05/02/bad-meat-investigation/
--------------
** By the way...BSE is a prion (or mis-folded protein) that eats holes in the brain and nervous system. That protein has also been found in other red-meat animals and even in humans. Humans get that disease by eating animals that have that protein in their meat and it is then called CJD (Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease). Farmers have even used the ground up carcasses of diseased animals to feed other animals that were then sold as meat to the public. You can't even cook the meat well enough to destroy that protein...not even "well-done". You'd have to turn the meat to ashes in order to destroy that protein. I certainly wouldn't trust our slaughterhouses, nor the regulatory agencies, to keep this very dangerous disease out of the meat we eat. They always seem to catch these things after it goes to market and people get sick or die. I believe it is because to implement strict laws and procedures and government overseers (inspectors) we would have to have honest people who are not bought off by profit mongers. I wonder how all those politicians and SCROTUS judges would like it if tons of diseased carrion were to be dumped on the steps of the Crapitol or the Stupreme Court?
Nothing was done in the days of Upton Sinclair until Theodore Roosevelt read his book The Jungle and then sat down to a steak dinner. I understand TR actually threw his steak dinner out of the White House window after he had read The Jungle. But maybe that's just an urban legend?
#31
But, if we add in all of those other top execs and the major shareholders...all raking in obscene compensation and profits... then the employees would be far better off than they are now.
I can see your point. From what I could find online (in the last three minutes), there are 900,000 McDonalds shareholders, or, to put it another way, one shareholder for every two workers. Of course, you were talking about the MAJOR shareholders, and not all McDonalds workers are minimum-wage workers. They do have a corporate office, about 20 miles west of me, that pays descent wages. But anyway...
Right now, there are 989 million McDondalds shares out, at a price of $101 each. Assuming, somehow, that everyone was forced to sell their shares at that $101 price, (which wouldn't work because the price would drop once they started selling), but just assuming they could, that would be a payout of close to 100-billion. Divided equally among the 1.9 million McDondalds employees, that's about $55,000 each. My math might be a little off. So I guess that would benefit those workers. If that ever came to pass.
We really do need to have a progressive tax that will help to even things out. The more you make, the higher the tax rate with no special elitist tax write offs. Unless, perhaps the tax write offs are an incentive to bring our jobs back to the US, employing US CITIZENS.
I agree. I'd put the threshold way the hell up there though, at like $50 million. After that, a 75% income tax.
Thom once floated the idea of taxing stock transactions, like one cent per 100 shares traded. That seems fair.
I wish it were feasable to have a zero-percent sales tax on anything made in the USA, to help people "vote with their wallet". I could have saved thousands in sales tax on my Toyota, which was actually more made-in-America than most Fords, or so they told me.
#32
stecoop01: Our forefathers were way outgunned and they succeeded. All of those countries that had revolutions were way out weaponized and they succeeded. All of those more modern countries like Iran, Libya, Egypt..a few that come to mind but there are many others...have overthrown their corrupt governments who had superior weaponry and police and soldiers. Even Rome, who conquered half the known world and who had superior weapons, failed to hold it together when those "hordes" overthrew the empire. And the many slaves had no loyalties to their abusers. When masses of people overwhelm the relatively few, no matter how well armed, empires fall. And that's why THEY, the ruling elite, needs to keep us believing that we won't stand a chance.
Why would the US be any different any of these other countries? Maybe because they have not reached a high point of intolerance or pain of being screwed? Not quite anyway. Maybe tomorrow? Just let the prices of everything shoot through the ceiling...especially food.
If the government was going to imprison or kill people who stood up to them, why didn't they do so at the Bundy ranch? Unless, what Loren Bliss says is true: "The alleged retreat may be an act of accommodation and alliance rather than an act of surrender". After all, there are militia spread all over the country and the so-called "Oath Keepers" are former, or present, military who "swore to protect the US from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC". And if they believe that the "US" is the people of the US and not the corrupt politicians and their criminal ruling elite puppet masters then they will stand against the real enemies of the US and not against the people who are rebelling against those tyrannical forces.
#33
Okay Matt… if you're going to accuse "my group" of being exclusionary, how about some examples? Empty generalities just don't cut it for me.
Your right-wing cliche' is a crock. Folks who work at places like McDonalds are forced to work... not by a gun to their heads so much as by threat of a slower, more painful demise: homelessness, and/or starvation. They sure aren't doing it to amuse themselves, or to make someone else rich. Marc recently shared his own experience working for McDonald's years ago; he explained how McDonald's and other franchises stiff workers via wage theft, which seems not only abusive to me but criminal as well.
To compare a worker's situation at McDonald's to that of someone working as an independent contractor is a lousy comparison. For example, I am self employed and people hire me to provide a service at their homes. It's a nice simple arrangement, cut & dry, no middlemen and no BS. If they don't agree to my rates, they can either do the work themselves or hire someone else who is willing to do the job at a cheaper price. No one steals my wages or dictates what I am to be paid. It is a totally different kind of arrangement where the power-imbalance is absent. To suggest your house exists to provide jobs for tree trimmers & gutter cleaners "by my logic" is just plain stupid.
People work to live, Matt. Businesses who hire full-time workers and pay poverty wages shouldn't even be in business, in my opinion. The shareholders don't do the work, nor do the CEOs or the business owners do the work. They are making a fortune off the backs of those doing the actual work and paying them so poorly that employees are forced to seek government assistance just to get by. As Marc recently pointed out, our taxes pick up the tab for wages & benefits these rich owners refuse to pay their workers. I too am infuriated by this. So then... who's subsidizing who, Matt? If these franchises exist solely to enrich the owners, shareholders and CEOs, then that is who should be doing the real work. If this isn't an option and the business is dependent upon workers to provide the actual service customers are paying for, they OWE those workers a decent wage; otherwise they are a parasitic, exploitative enterprise that has no right to exist.
You say that businesses aren't created solely for the purpose of providing jobs to people. Fine. But that argument can just as easily get turned around, Matt. Do you think those of us not born into wealth should exist only to be a source of cheap labor for greedy businessmen?
These right-wing cliches are nothing but hogwash, spoon-fed the public by a bunch of self-serving pigs. - Aliceinwonderland
#34
Chi Matt -- Take solace in the fact that for old people (>40) that the incorrect use of their and there is almost 100% of the time a typo.
#35
Here's an example of corporate heartlessness:
Quote RT:A McDonald's employee who spend the past eight years working at the fast food chain was fired after she bought food for firefighters and then clashed with her boss over the issue.Heather Levia, a 23-year-old single mom with twins, told WIVB-TV in western New York that she was working her standard morning shift at McDonald’s when a group of firefighters came in. The Allegany Fire Department had been in the news recently for putting out a house fire in sub-zero temperatures, and Levia said she wanted to show her gratitude by paying for the group's 25 breakfast sandwiches out of her own pocket.
And before you condemn RT for Communist propaganda..many other US media also reported on this.
#36
Just an afterthought: If everyone in this country, whether working or not, was guaranteed a basic income, THAT would level the playing field between employers & employees in a heartbeat. These crappy jobs would no longer be a necessity for survival, which would be tremendously empowering to workers. When the incentive is to improve one's standard of living, rather than simply to live, it's much easier to say "Take this job and shove it!" when working conditions suck and the imbalance of power is too much. - AIW
#37
Palin, I'm with you on this food thing. Over the past thirty or more years, we've virtually cut red meat out of our diet. We never eat ground meat anymore; other red meat that's not ground up, maybe once a year... if that. My hubby & I eat vegetarian 80-90% of the time, occasionally supplementing our diets with poultry or fish. Much as I hate the higher pricetag, I'm only buying free-range chickens from now on.
Those diseases you've described are a real appetite spoiler; mighty glad I'd eaten breakfast already before reading your post! - AIW
#38
chuckle8: Aha! I found it in #174...good eye. Of course, I shouldn't make fun of someone else (even though he is an English teacher..no one's perfect) because I also make mistakes... like in #183, 2nd paragraph, first sentence "Why would the US be any different any of these other countries?" I left out the word "than". But if I had tried to edit that mistake, after AIW posted, it would have messed up her reference number. So, I let it go. I try to catch these things in the Preview but it seems easier to catch other people's errors than one's own.
That would be a good teaching tactic, perhaps, to have a class retell a story, in writing, on a short story the teacher reads to the class.. just a few paragraphs. Then have them switch papers and have them correct their peers' grammar, punctuation, and spelling with blue colored pencils. Then have the original authors, after the teacher double checks the papers with red colored pencils, rewrite the essays with the corrected papers.
I remember, decades ago, when I was in grade school, the teacher gave the class a test that consisted of reading a very short story, then several multiple choice questions and some fill in the blanks questions. The very first instruction said: "Read through the entire test, and follow the instructions, before continuing." I believe it was a timed test as well. I can't remember what I did, or what any other the other kids did...but I think most of us rushed to read the story and then began filling out the answers. But when we got to the very bottom of the page it said: "Do not answer any of the questions! Just print your name at the top of the paper and turn it in!
#39
Pal -- I heard Robert Reich say something yesterday (democracynow interview by Amy Goodman; their in a fund raiser mode so Bob did not actually say it yesterday) say something like what you are saying. He said (from my memory) "political cyncism is ceding to moneyed interests". I just liked it, so I had to share.
#40
AIW -- So you and Pal are causing ranchers to go broke and have to graze their cattle on govt land to make ends meet.
#41
That would be a good teaching tactic, perhaps, to have a class retell a story, in writing, on a short story the teacher reads to the class.. just a few paragraphs. Then have them switch papers and have them correct their peers' grammar, punctuation, and spelling with blue colored pencils. Then have the original authors, after the teacher double checks the papers with red colored pencils, rewrite the essays with the corrected papers.
Nowadays, we teach students to try to get the spelling close enough to a spell checker to catch it. I admit that even I rely on that tactic. And the grammar checkers in Word help a lot too. I teach the students to avoid passive voice sentences, and Word underlines them anyway.
We don't have to exchange papers, thanks to Google Docs. Multiple students can collaborate at the same time on a single document. It's pretty cool to see multiple cursers typing away on the same document.
I predict that within ten years even all of this will be archaic. By then, it will all be voice recognition.
Did I mention that, even for my generation, cursive writing is a thing of the past? We were taught it for one year, and it was never enforced. None of my peers use it, and only one of my students uses it. I think she does it just to piss me off, because she knows I have a hard time reading it.
Probably the most useful grammar lesson I teach my students is how to use a semi-colon for something other than a winky-face. ;)
#42
Perhaps it is my own cynical nature, but when I read stories like this, I have a vision of a disgruntled worker who was probably fired for some other reason, just trying to make her boss look bad. Or, possibly, a bad manager who unjustly fired someone. But that manager isn't exactly in the wealthy class. I wonder how high up the chain this order to fire her came from. I just don't see the McDonalds elites writhing their hands and thinking about how they can fire this worker.
#43
McDonald's and other franchises stiff workers via wage theft, which seems not only abusive to me but criminal as well.It is criminal, and they should be prosecuted. I'm guessing it's managers (about $35-40K per year) fudging the hours of their employees. NOT the McDonalds CEO or shareholders sending out some directive to the managers to do it. Maybe some ruthless franchise owners...
If these franchises exist solely to enrich the owners, shareholders and CEOs, then that is who should be doing the real work
Are we talking about work, or manual labor? Because my job is easy for me, and I don't break a sweat, I am not working? Ok, fine, I am blogging at the moment. It's my planning period, and I should be planning. I guess I am a bad employee.
Which actually brings me back to the original topic of Thom's blog - isn't the point of college to separate yourself so you can get paid for your mind, not your manual labor? Almost anyone can push a lawnmower. Fewer people can balance the accounting books for the landscape company. Few people can repair the lawnmower. Even fewer people can design a new lawnmower. So it sort of makes sense that the guy pushing it gets paid the least.
But, you are right about something. That "least amount" that the lawnmower pusher makes should keep him off of the welfare rolls.
#44
Chi Matt -- I am retraining myself to use the quotes, so please bear with me.
Quote Chi Matt:Which actually brings me back to the original topic of Thom's blog - isn't the point of college to separate yourself so you can get paid for your mind, not your manual labor? Almost anyone can push a lawnmower. Fewer people can balance the accounting books for the landscape company. Few people can repair the lawnmower. Even fewer people can design a new lawnmower. So it sort of makes sense that the guy pushing it gets paid the least.
Why do you think this is the point of college?
#45
Chi Matt --
Quote Chi Matt:I point again to my school, which spends less per student, and has better results
I will believe your school has better results when I see the results of your value added testing.
Quote Chi Matt: instead of the immediate fix that would help a lot of students right now - attaching the tax money to them, and letting them take it to a private school if they want.It seems the solution you're suggesting is what is called vouchers. Thom calls that discounts for rich people. Per Thom, It has been tried in various places, and it always degrades the resulting education system.
#46
Most likely, ChicagoMatt, your higher-ups are reading everything you type at work, even if it is a break or lunch time. Some even spy on you at home. Employers do this, you know, and you will probably never know it until they decide to crack down on you one way or the other. The Brave New World of employers spying on what we do at work (or, at home), even if it is ostensibly "on your own time", is here!
#47
chuckle8: thanks for that tip on Robert Reich interviewed by Amy Goodwin. I'll check it out.
Also:
Quote chuckle8:So you and Pal are causing ranchers to go broke and have to graze their cattle on govt land to make ends meet
We're just trying to save the planet from all those methane farting cows....and Mad Cow Disease...not to mention...e coli deaths. And I've also read that eating red meat, over the years, increases one's probability of getting cancer. But then, everything gives us cancer, it seems, and we never find out that fact until it's too late.
#48
DAnneMarc: thanks for that link to CEO's income compared to their workers income!
#49
Aliceinwonderland: Good for you...about eating mostly vegetables and very little meat. I don't eat that much meat, myself...mostly vegetables, whole wheat breads, fruits, nuts, seeds, and a little chicken or turkey and fish...but no shell fish. Unfortunately, though, I still eat too much salt, sugar, and Tabasco sauce or other hot sauces.
#50
Quote ChicagoMatt:Are we talking about work, or manual labor?
ChicagoMatt ~ Are you talking about white vs blue collar work. As far as I am concerned a job is a job be it mowing the lawn or serving on SCrOTUmS. As far as I am concerned anyone with a job deserves the same respect of anyone who give their time to contribute to society. We all do our best. I see no difference between physical and nonphysical jobs.
Quote ChicagoMatt:Which actually brings me back to the original topic of Thom's blog - isn't the point of college to separate yourself so you can get paid for your mind, not your manual labor? Almost anyone can push a lawnmower. Fewer people can balance the accounting books for the landscape company. Few people can repair the lawnmower. Even fewer people can design a new lawnmower. So it sort of makes sense that the guy pushing it gets paid the least.
ChicagoMatt ~ That makes a little sense. When you think about it the guy pushing the lawn mower probably can't balance the books, repair the lawnmower, or design a new one. It can also be said that the accountant probably can't fix the lawnmower and the repair person can't design one. Chances are the designer knows nothing about books either. That is why they have to work as a team to get the job done.
Personally, I happen to be qualified to do any of those jobs. I have an AS in technology with a BS and BA in Design and a minor in Small Business Administration. Yet, I can say with all certainty that the "least" appealing of those jobs is the one who pushes the lawnmower. As the saying goes, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Remove any of them and the lawn goes unattended. It is my belief that the man/woman pushing the lawnmower should get their fair share. They are, after all, the link at the end of the chain.
Quote ChicagoMatt:But, you are right about something. That "least amount" that the lawnmower pusher makes should keep him off of the welfare rolls.
Hallelujah! On that we can all agree.
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Then there is the CATO institute (formerly called the charles koch institute) and the Heritage foundation.