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DAnneMarc:
I think it is fair to say two things
1.Neither you or I are in a position to say exactly how much can be cut from the military before we seriously effect national security. I throw out 20% and that may be high. You seem to want to get rid of it all. You are smoking something really good if you actually think that is possible to do that without having some SERIOUS ramifications. Do you want a 9/11 incident every week, every month, or never again? What is never again worth to this country? How much would once a year cost this country?
2. You want to give way too much power to elected officials whose number one goal in life is to get re elected. Your "give all power to the government" is a prescription for disaster and has failed miserably every time it has been tried in the real world.
And yes the yearly deficit is about 1 trillion. I say you have to cut AT LEAST half of that out of spnding SOMEWHERE. Sorry I cannot agree with you that you can squeze that kind of money out of the military. That is the one thing the government does that no one else can do.
Outback ~ A very Good Night to you too my friend!
Palindromedary ~ Like I said before, "As far as the fear of taxing the rich into leaving the country all I have to say is this. Adios! Au revoir! Abschied! La revedere! Tot ziens! Da bye! Syranara! Arrivederci! Farvel! Magandang bye! Maith beannacht! Good Riddance!"
I believe in Chinese that would be, "再見"
Laugh Out Loud! I believe that would be, "大聲笑出來"
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
DAnneMarc
All the factories moving to China tells me that the greedy have been able to get away with screwing their fellow citizens just like any immoral criminal would. And until there is a mass uprising, boycotts, etc. these people will continue to control our government and continue to destroy the lives of the majority of the people in this country. The wealthy own the major news media and they generate propaganda for the purpose of keeping the people confused and too scared to strike back at those who propagandize them.
Moving the factories to China did not cause the wealthy people to have to move there as well. They still run things from their home country. I'd love to see the greedy wealthy people move to China. They might find life a little more difficult over there. It certainly wouldn't be as easy as they have it here in the US..or Canada. I know, I've been there several times. And when wealthy people start flashing their money around in China...their life expectancy is not very high.
Wouldn't it be just dandy if all of these scumbag wealthy people, the ones that don't pay their fare share of taxes, leave the country. The people would then be able to take back the military and then the "people's army" can invade all those little offshore tax havens and confiscate what was stolen from the people. Let's face it...there is a lot of bullsh!t hype and propaganda put out by the wealthy in trying to scare not-so-wealthy people into being totally submissive. As the article I just posted showed..the so-called "mass exodus" from France by wealthy people didn't really happen...the two wealthy people that left and went to Britain did so for reasons unrelated to the 75% taxation of those making over a million Euros. And some the other not-as-wealthy uppity-snit-wannabees who relocated to Britain are making a royal pain-in-the-@$$ of themselves to other Brits who are not happy with their new neighbors. Why would anyone, even upwardly-wealthy people, want to live estranged from their home country... in a country where the natives are not not happy the new immigrants are there? Even wealthy people know that there is no place like home...no matter what you have to sacrifice to stay there. Besides, there are quite a number of very wealthy people who don't mind a bit paying higher taxes...it's just the greedy and selfish few who are spreading the propaganda and scare stories.
Trust me it doesn't happen over night but it happens. I lived through it. Doesn't all the factories moving to China teach you anything.
Huge Flight of Rich after French Tax Hikes? Nope!
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/03/-huge-flight-of...
Capish ;-) No misunderstanding. My last post was blocked for some reason as "inappropriate". Sure hope I haven't irritated someone here. Anyway, it's been fun, I agree. Let's see what the Thomster has in store for us tomorrow. He sure did stir up a hornet's nest with that last one:-) G'night.
Outback ~ LOL No! That's LEGAL - ESE. A made up word for the phony language of "Tax Professionals." Sorry for the miss understanding! This is fun!!! LOL
The top 10% pay 70% of the taxes. Do you really think the other 9% are going to stick around and carry 70%. Its not just there money. Here in Canada our taxes where so high and wages so low (government health care) Doctors left the country in plane loads to the US. Be careful it could happen to you to. 4 of 10 Canadians don't have a family doctor.
CUT ""ALL"" Congressmen/women and Senator's along with the White House Staff pay to $35,000.00 a year, that is what alot of Americans are living on and they are doing fine. If they don't like their new pay scale, go find another job, just like the American People have too. I'm a Union Iron Worker, I have to leave my home state and travel the road to where the work is, until work picks up in my city. If I don't have enough money to pay for a motel, I sleep in my car, until pay day, then I get a motel room, shower, and get a good nights sleep. Those Congressmen/women and Senators can do the same (as I have too) for their living if they LOVE that job (like I do). Maybe they will get the feel of what it is really like to work for a living, instead of living the good life of $180,000.00 a year job, have a Capital room to sleep in (instead of their car/truck), shower everyday in the White House Gym, eat at the finest restaurants, wear the finest clothes/shoes, and collect a WELFARE CHECK (Tax Payers Taxes) from Hard Working American People for setting around voting NO!!! or HELL NO!!!
DAnnemarc, you have a Lebanese accountant....? Get one that speaks better English my friend. It'll greatly simplify your life ;-)
Outback ~ Thanks for that tax info. That explains a lot in plain English that my accountant explained in Legalese--a version of Ancient Greek I believe. I'm not schooled on languages of antiquity--yet. LOL
Now I understand much better! Thank you!
Of course, it doesn't make me very happy. But I am less confused!
Mauiman2 ~ One other thing: Thats DAnneMarc; not, D AnneMark.
Let me quote the great Ross Perot "YOU people voted for Obama, so what r u complaining about"? This is ur guy and he is just doing what he does best, he is bending over and grabbing his ankles. This is Obamas favorite negotiating tactic. He gets what he wants every time. I really do not understand the surprise.
Obama will leave office with over $100,000,000 in the bank ( plus his campaign money)
Mauiman2 ~ Using your own figures--which I checked out and seem to be almost correct--you claim we spend $1 trillion dollars in the red. You say we need to cut at least $500 Billion from the budget. That's about half if I'm correct?
You say the military accounts for $700 Billion. Here is where you are wrong. This figure is from pre 2011 annual budgets. The 2012 projected military spending is from $1.030–$1.415 trillion! 1
The overall DOD (Department of Defense) base operations + "Overseas Contingency Operations" is $707.5 Billion, however the interest alone accrued from all the previous wars that were never accounted for in the budget is a whooping $109.1–$431.5 Billion. $200-$400 Billion are consumed by other Military earmarks. The DHS (Department of Homeland Security) alone sucks up $47 Billion.1
Quite obviously, even to a moron, this country cannot afford this military. The DHS and DOD are the first and most foremost branches that need to be trimmed from this budget tree. That's a total of $750 Billion. That won't cover the $1 Trillion annual budget, but it will take care of the interest payments on the loans and give us $250 Billion left over to put down on the loan itself. Most importantly of all, it eliminates the cause of all our financial deficit woes--the blood thirsty/money hungry DOD. Meanwhile it allows us enough funds to still have a standing domestic defense military, and to care for the needs of our veterans. All this without touching any social safety net programs.
Also, this doesn't even include my plans to reduce the budget further by repealing the war on drugs, free trade, and Obamacare; and then making Medicare available to everyone.
It also is independent of my plan to drastically increase revenue by reinstating import tariffs on foreign goods, legalizing and subsidizing hemp production 2, and increasing payroll taxes on everybody; especially the wealthiest citizens and corporations. However, once we do all that, good bye economic woes.
You far underestimate what this country would be like if someone like me ran it. It would be a prosperous utopia for everyone--including greedy, self-centered, capitalists like yourself.
By the way, thanks for asking me to do some research. The numbers sure makes my argument a lot more compelling.
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
2. http://thehempsolution.blogspot.com/
OK Mauiman2, I'll bite. First off, You totally missed the point about reducing the size of the military. Why would you reduce it only by 20%? Does this assume you want to keep beating that dead horse of U.S. Imperialism? The Idea of cutting back 50% or more is predicated on our withdrawing our global footprint and setting up shop here at home at half the cost.
Second, you're underestimating what we spend on our war machine. We're not just talking about the Pentagon budget here. We're talking about all the ancillary expenditures like two wars (or more; way more if we decide to get into a pissing match with Iran or North Korea), all of the CIA, NSA and other support programs for our overseas adventures. Don't forget the cost of taking care of a vet with no legs for life, neglecting to mention his inconvenience. If you add it all up it exceeds your trillion dollar deficit. Good, cut that outlay in half and get the rest from tax reform, not just from the wealthy but from the lower income brackets as well, and especially from the huge Corporate multinationals like GE (who paid no taxes last year as I recall) and big oil. Never in the history of this country have we gone to war without raising taxes to pay for it. We launched Iraq and Afghanistan on a credit card, taxes are at an all time low, and there's there's your deficit in a nutshell. Now who do you suppose has profited most from these wars? Don't you think it's fair to tax them more at this point?
Third, both you and Kend are wrong about the 1% accounting for 70% of the revenue base. As of 2009, the percentage of federal revenue paid by the upper 1% in income taxes was 36.7% according to the IRS. You can look it up. But that doesn't begin to tell the story. If you take into account the percentage of income paid into federal, state and local taxes by income bracket, it looks very different. Here's a chart for you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/09/state-local... . A lot of infrastructure is paid for by state funds in particular, and a lot of services paid for by state and local taxes. Notice how the wealthy fare in comparison to the middle class and poor by percentage of income. Look a little different? Here's a link to the article I pulled the chart from. It makes for some pretty good reading if you care to look at the other side of the coin.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/19/heres-why-the...
And finally, there's a concept that you guys may not get, or be willing to entertain. I'm going to try, briefly. I have two different friends that are "richer than God". They are always whining about how the poor pay no taxes and and the middle class don't pay enough and the upper tax brackets have to shoulder the bulk of the load *sob*.... I try to explain to them that the great unwashed have paid for and continue to support the infrastructure in their daily work that makes it possible for their companies to operate, netting them, individually, that tidy little salry (plus bonuses, plus stock options, plus luxury company car and gas allowance). They therefore have a moral obligation to pay more generously back into the system that supports them. Take a look at that chart again. Note the percentage of income paid in state taxes by the minimum wage box boy working in one of these guy's shop. That's state highway tax revenue paying for the roads that these guys use for shipping their product every day. I think Elizabeth Warren put it better last year, but you get my drift.
Sorry to be so long winded here, but this country has a real disconnect between the "haves" and the "have nots" that needs to be fixed before we will be a whole nation again. And the rich can't keep on profiting off the working class at the current level before the house of cards collapses (think 1929).
To Outback, Nachos and D AnneMark:
I never said we could not make cuts to the military, but I do think it is totally irresponsible to suggest that we could completely eliminate it. For the sake of argument, I'll grant that we could cut it 20%, which is 140 billion a year. That still leaves us a deficit of 860 billion a year to close. If you want to quibble with that number fine, but it can't be a whole lot more than that.
And for those who you who say good ridance to the rich, Kend's point is right on the money. Who do you think will pay for all of your wonderful give away programs after 70% of your tax base leaves the country? Learn the lesson that England learned and France is about to learn!
DAnneMark, you missed my point on Social Security. All of us retireing now or anytime in the future would be mch better off if the government had just forced us to buy T Bills with the money they forced us to put into Social Security instead of taking it for Social Security. We would be getting double compared to what we will get out of the FDR legalized Ponzi scheme called Social Security. Wouldn't we all be much better off if everyone on social security was getting twice as much money as they are getting now? That could have happened if the program had been set up properly in the first place, but FDR was buying votes in the 1940's and screwing everybody 60 years plus later. He know I could not vote against him, so he simply did not care about anyone born after 1930 or so.
Medicare, Medicaid, and ObamaCare are wonderful programs except for the fact that the costs have spiraled out of control and the taxpayers of this country (read MIDDLE CLASS TAXPAYERS) are not willing to fund them. SInce the MIDDLE CLASS is not willing to pay for them, they have to get cut back. I know that reality makes you hopping mad, but that is reality, whether you like it or not! You can't "tax the rich" to save these programs, the money simply is not there.
Your only other solution is a massive MIDDLE CLASS tax increase. Do you want to suggest that?
I seriously doubt that, Kend. The more their income, the more tax dodges they seem to have. And if you listen to the Republicans, if you raise taxes on the wealthy it won't generate that much revenue (they are by definition only 1% of the population). I think the rest of us could do quite nicely without the tax revenue they provide. And if not, at least it would be a relief to be rid of them.
You do know outback that if they left so would 70 % of your tax base.
DAnneMarc says: "As far as the fear of taxing the rich into leaving the country all I have to say is this. Adios! Au revoir! Abschied! La revedere! Tot ziens! Da bye! Syranara! Arrivederci! Farvel! Magandang bye! Maith beannacht! Good Riddance!"
Well said! Let the fat cats at the top of the multinational companies, the banksters, the Wall Street criminals take their ill gotten gains and retire to their off shore villas. They can take their f***ing politicians with them, and 5/9 ths of the Supreme Court. We'll never see that wealth appear in this country again anyway. Perhaps with those greedy bastards gone the decent hard working people of this country can get a fresh start. Hell, maybe it'll evolve into an Anarchy! ;-)
Mauiman2 ~ What can I add to Outback and MMmmNACHOS other than Kudos gentlemen! KUDOS!
Mauiman2 ~ It is you who are ignorant and out of touch. T Bills and US Bonds are great retirement investments--IF YOU HAVE THE CASH LYING AROUND TO BUY THEM! Of course, if you do have that type of lucrative cash you probably also have mutual funds and dividend checks and no real need for Social Security or Medicare. I'd like to see you live on a typical Social Security fixed income and try to survive within those means. Till then you are the person who is ignorant and have no business posting on this blog.
The truth is that you are an insensitive, selfish and greedy person who is not capable of prioritizing the needs of the many against the wants of the few.
So I'm ignorant about the need to have a sprawling military all over the world? The world will come to an end if we cut it by more than half? Where was this military on 911? Where were they when JFK was assassinated? What about MLK or RFK? Where were they when thousands of tons of cocaine and heroin were smuggled into our country and distributed on our streets? Where were they when our own Government declared a war on drugs which was actually a war on our citizens and created it's own army to persecute our citizenry and create the largest prison population in the history of the world? Do you realize it costs 4 times more to house a prisoner than the average full time worker earns? Do you really endorse showering prisoners with benefits like free health care and denying law abiding citizens food stamps? I say end the war on drugs, disband the DEA, the DHS, the CIA, and the FBI, release all these non-violent offenders, return all forfeited property, cut all foreign military spending and close all foreign bases, re-station our troops domestically so their paychecks can be recirculated in the economy and they can work in short distance to their family's. This military has only been any good at generating enemy's around the world. They have done little to protect us from the enemy's from within. Your suggestion that we need them to survive is ridiculous and TRULY IGNORANT!
Medicare for all would also solve many of our national financial problems by distributing the expense of caring for the sick evenly to everyone. It would also allow collective bargaining on the part of the Government to keep health care and medicine costs down.
As far as the fear of taxing the rich into leaving the country all I have to say is this. Adios! Au revoir! Abschied! La revedere! Tot ziens! Da bye! Syranara! Arrivederci! Farvel! Magandang bye! Maith beannacht! Good Riddance!
DAnne I never said putting money in a Caymen bank was ok for companies to do. I said it was legal. Romney ran on changing loop holes like that. I guess it was more important that Americans get free birth control.
I guess Candians hold our policitions to a higher standard in both there private and personal life. I did like Clinton as a President because he really didn't do anything. Just talked a lot. As a business owner it helps me budget better. With a policy changer like Obama I like many others are just sitting on the fence waiting for some stability before we invest again.
As far as medicare for all. Not even Socialist Canada has a national single payer system. That would scare the hell out of me.
As far as Social Security again even Socialist Canada knows they had to raise the age from 65 to 67. I am the first age effected. Costs are going up and people are living longer. They gave me ten years to adjust So I am fine with it.
Where is Ken Ware. I am down in Scottsdale, AZ enjoying the weather so you can't bug me about me freezing in the North For a change.
MMmmNACHOS ~ Please reread my post. You'll find that our opinions of President Clinton are not that far apart. Perhaps I should have graded him a D- to C-. I may have been to generous there; but, like I said, his administration is mired in the contrast of some of the worst ones in history. I don't really condemn a man for his infidelities. However, I can see how Kend considers such behavior in high office indicative of poor character. We are all human, but we do have a sense of responsibility and self control. I really can't respond beyond that because I really don't want to be goaded into defending that man... I just ate!
MAUIMAN2...There is nothing wrong with "funding & maintaining" a strong military to protect our boarders...Its a sound idea, but the real problem arises when we spend more on unnecessary wars than on fixing the problems we have here within our own boarders. Also, and this is a BIG ISSUE, our current Foreign Policy is too quick to enact military sanctions upon other sovernig nations...This needs to be reformed to a much less hostle policy.
I don't know you from Adam, but I am willing to guess you havn't spent much time "traveling" or living outside the U.S. And I don't mean to touristy Americanized neon sign vacation meccas. Most Americans haven't a clue when it comes to culture outside the U.S. Their ideas of "the rest of the world" is based on sound bites fed to them by the mainstream corporate media or silly little shows like Anthony Bordains "No Reservattions" (fun show, but in no way complete). And for the few that take their two weeks per year to France or Italy or Ireland, Mexico etc, etc...Most of them don't go off the beaten path...They take the $50 tour bus ride and snap a few pics and consider themselves world travelers.
I myself have traveled extensively and lived abroad. I have family that live in Germany, Australia, and Finland for the past 5 decades. All three of these countries are doing far better socially and economically than the U.S. No I am not saying these countries are void of the economic catastrophy that is taking place, but all three countries place more value on investing in the wellbeing of their people, rather than trying to divide and conquer the world.
If We the People want to fix our domestic problems, both economic and social, then we MUST cut Military and Deffense spending in half, Reform our Foreign Policy to a much more diplomatic one, close U.S. Military bases outside the U.S., and put all that money into rebuilding the American Infrastructure, (Industry, Education, Health Care).
No other Soverning nation has military bases outside their own boarders and they are doing just fine, if not better than the U.S. Hmmm, how interesting. Indeed!