Thursday December 3 2009
By Louise
Quote: “It is a tragic mix-up when the United States spends $500,000 for every enemy soldier killed, and only $53 annually on the victims of poverty." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hour One - Lessons from Spain...what we won't talk about, but must!
Hour Two "Everything You Know is Wrong" "The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism" with Howard Bloom howardbloom.net
plus: "The End of Poverty" Phillipe Diaz www.theendofpoverty.com Opening nationwide Friday 12/4
Hour Three - Is health care going to take your guns away? Larry Pratt www.gunowners.org
Comments
#2
--We voted for Obama because he wasnt McCain or one of the even crazier right wing NUTS.--
AMEN!
#3
In my best Porky the Pig voice...
#4
>> L Grace,
>> This “invade the neighbor” strategy doesn’t fly with me, either. That’s why I think there’s more going on, like the pipeline we’ve discussed.
I missed the pipeline discussion but I heard Thom make his prediction yesterday.
It's not much of a prediction -- a pipeline between the central republics and India have been talked about for years. I think even some engineering has been done.
The other proposed pipeline that is forever talked about is from the central republics south through Afghanistan and Balochistan to the Arabian Sea.
Both pipelines have the problem of being indefensible to attack by the many radical tribes and groups in the area.
#5
L Grace,
Re: "Pipeline" --- Scan Tuesday's blog:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/2009/12/01/tuesday-december-1-2009/#comments
#6
We all need to remember the chickhawk neo-cons named Jason out there. Remind them that Bush fired his first commanding general in Iraq because he, Gen.Shinseki, dared to say we needed more troops in Iraq and incited the famous quote from Rumsfeld-"We fight with the army we have".We need to challenge them on how they would respond if a foreign country invaded our country-I'd daresay the would take up arms! Heck, they're taking up arms with the thought of a Democratic president right now. We need to remind them of the continuous manipulation of politics our CIA did in that area. You'd probably see each of them massively backtrack from their position because they are parroting what they hear and don't know the politics or the history of the situation. My favorite line to hear when I have one is "Well, I'm only a fiscal conservative, really I'm more liberal when it comes to......"
#7
Now, if pipelines through areas benefitted those areas, maybe they wouldn't be attacked.
Historically though, the extractive industries extract the wealth and resources.
#8
I second caller Barbara's emotions -- recall that song? And as for the caller afterwards, the Nazis took one real precious jewel: King Alexander Amber Room - bastards, they took down the walls and even ceiling and stored it away-
See- they are building hell while we are trying to build heaven.
#9
Here is an example of how craven and disgustingly ineffective our Congress can be: Just days after the Salahi kerfuffle, three Secret Service Agents have been suspended and hearings have already begun. Eight years after Bush and Cheney tricked us into war and.....? Who are the real impostors here? The Salahis or these buffoons we've elected to office? Disgusting.
#10
Here's the problem -- a true liberal could never effectively govern now or in the foreseeable future. However, a true conservative can.
It's unfair and infuriating, but that's political reality.
Reagan and the Bush's are further right than Kucinich is left -- yet if Kucinich where president every single one of his initiatives would be blocked. He'd also likely veto nearly every bill that crosses his desk!
The government would go into complete stalemate -- which ends up being a vote for the status quo.
So, given that reality, the best we liberals can hope for are pragmatists like Clinton and Obama.
I'm a middle age liberal and I'm happy if my president at least isn't beating the crap out of America -- and Obama is far better than that.
#11
>> Zero G. December 3rd, 2009, 10:43 am
>> Now, if pipelines through areas benefitted those areas, maybe they wouldn’t be attacked.
>> Historically though, the extractive industries extract the wealth and resources.
Yes... and whoever is in power. In Pakistan, it's the Punjabi ultrarich power families and their legion of cronies.
I've spent a fair amount of time in that region and have never seen a mega project help the locals.
#12
Waoh Gracie - now we see your true colors...
"Here’s the problem — a true liberal could never effectively govern now or in the foreseeable future. However, a true conservative can."
Liberals are the 'A' students in the class room. the other 90 percent eventually see as we do- but after many reincarnations.
#13
Well I gotta go. By y'all.
I just want to add again -- don't throw Obama under the bus! He's the best we can realistically hope for.
Work for total public financing of elections instead of beating up Obama.
#14
@LGrace: Obama is further right than Kuncinich is left.
#15
You want to take that statement back L. Grace
Do you deny JFK could never have effectively governed. We would argue he did until of course, THEY killed him...
This has been posted here countless times, but I want to post it again, since it's what we Proud Liberals consider one of the best definitions of BEING LIBERAL. Please share it liberally.
These paragraphs are from John F. Kennedy's speech on 9/14/60 accepting a second nomination in his Presidential campaign, from the New York Liberal Party. (For the full text, see http://bit.ly/88tcP5 )
...What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label, "Liberal"? If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal."
But, if by a "Liberal," they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people - their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties - someone who believes that we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say that I'm a "Liberal.
#16
>> Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:55 am
>> Waoh Gracie – now we see your true colors…
You do? Tell me what they are!
I'm a liberal -- surely left of Obama. But I'm a resigned realist about what's possible in America until we take the money out of politics.
Bye for real, now.
#17
@LGrace: We are not beating up on Obama . . . We are just asking him to do his farging job.
#18
Why isn't A. Q. Khan in prison?
Maybe this is why:
from: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5518
In the article, just filed tonight, [Sibel] Edmonds reveals details overheard on wiretaps she translated during her time at the FBI, just after 9/11. Her disclosures to the Times reveal a maze of nuclear black market espionage involving U.S. Defense and State Department officials, that resulted in the sale and propagation of nuclear secrets to Turkish and Israeli interests. In turn, that information was then sold to Pakistan and used by A.Q. Kahn for development of nuclear weapons. The secrets were subsequently proliferated to Iran, Libya, North Korea, and potentially al-Qaeda's Osama bin Laden, just weeks prior to September 11th, 2001.
#19
@Richard Yeah! and if he won't do it- we will. Even if it takes us to infinity.
#20
L Grace- you did not answer my question about JFK
#21
Love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal...Phil Ochs
#22
L Grace,
I understand your realistic memory of President Obama's promises about Afghanistan but I think the problem is that there is a tacit assumption that Presidential candidates must speak from both sides of their mouths at times in order to get elected. Because of campaign financing issues we have all come to accept the fact that people we back may be lying to "the other side", just as the other side has lied to us, in order to get elected.
I believe that many progressives felt President Obama was merely talking tough about Afghanistan, just as he was framing other policies in ways that would be acceptable to less progressive voters. We were seriously deluding ourselves, obviously, but in the insane campaign practices we live under today our delusion is understandable. I feel we really felt that President Obama, with his compassion and wisdom on so many other important issues, was surely saying what he needed to say about Afghanistan, too, in order to get elected.
But we were very very wrong, apparently, or else we were right and the power structure in Washington has threatened President Obama, or "brainwashed" President Obama. It's hard for me to believe that, if he were able to do what he truly wants to do, President Obama would bomb Afghanistan instead of sending carpenters, nurses, teachers, and business development experts.
#23
The "Gift" of Giving
I participated in "Meals on Wheels" and other community volunteer work for years. Recently, I've come up with a new "charity" outlet. I have alot of Republican neighbors, some of whom are incredibly petty. I have decided that, instead of getting peeved at their antics, I will try to do something positive or thoughtful for them whenever I can and without any expectation of reward or thanks from them. 'Makes me feel better and leaves them happier, too (or at least confused! LOL)
#24
@Zero G - is the soundtrack for those words like Madonna's - "like a Virgin" ?
#25
While I believe that leadership in the White House is confined from acting in the behalf of America's citizenry by relying the staff they have put in place, I place greater blame on the leadership on the Hill. Between Pelosi in the House and Reid in the Senate we have a real problem to pursuing a progressive agenda. Both vote liberally BUT are lead by the more recessivist folk in their respective bodies rather than actually leading. Frankly, this would less objectionable if either or both of them were even marginal managers. If they can’t lead AND can’t manage they should abdicate their respective positions.
This is about the power of the buck over the power of flesh and blood.
#26
@ loretta
You say it all....
But we were very very wrong, apparently, or else we were right and the power structure in Washington has threatened President Obama, or “brainwashed” President Obama. It’s hard for me to believe that, if he were able to do what he truly wants to do, President Obama would bomb Afghanistan instead of sending carpenters, nurses, teachers, and business development experts.
Now what?
#27
Food Fascist, yeah.. now what? that's what we are all trying to figure out, huh. That was a pretty wimpy war protest last night. How about you?
#28
Thanks to Food Fascist I just found a link to Jello Biafra doing Phil's "Love Me"
http://www.last.fm/music/Phil+Ochs/_/Love+Me,+I'm+a+Liberal
#29
Loretta,
The demonstration at the Federal Building in Los Angeles numbered in the hundreds.
#30
Well- there was a major protest in Los Angeles, I have put protests together in the past from my secret bunker which remains undisclosed publically, however, put no protest together yet as I am wall to wall just making a living right now and primarily blogging. My biggest campaign right now is getting listener's to Thom's and other progressive shows whenever I get a breath. I have turned into a 24/7 activist though, its a part of me now. I envision a candle of light that I become every minute of the day, so no matter what I am doing, I am radiating light. Now...we need to find those in the dark,, scoop them up and encourage them into the light. Yesterday, for example, I wrote the President of TeaParty.org and gave him links to Thoms show and encouraged him to listen and that I had heard on the program that Thom would like us to engage them and find common ground.
IF I am all wrong and the laws of the Tao with regards to polarity are correct however, every time we create a Mother Theresa, we also create a Charles Manson - so I do not want to be self righteous and like Roger Daltry of the Who sings -and if I ........... .......... ....before if I smile and act like a fool .....oh somebody help me with the lyrics here...
Diversity must be enjoyed, but how do we embrace the afeared, so that they no longer do such heinous acts!
@zero g lol on the song!
#31
Perhaps the answer is ....Ohmmmmmmm.......c'omeon everybody sing along!
#32
Food Fascist,
Great thoughts! I will try to adapt them to my life.
#33
Behind Blue Eyes
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
No one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies
But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what it's like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you
No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through
But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
When my fist clenches, crack it open
Before I use it and lose my cool
When I smile, tell me some bad news
Before I laugh and act like a fool
If I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
If I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
#34
Since L Grace has apparently left us...in keeping with Thom's policies...I can't savage him/her over the "realities" which I disagree. I am not so downtrodden to set the bar so low. Our reach must always exceed our grasp.
I do however concur about the primacy of campaign finance reform in obtaining a better democratic future. No other issue is so important and central to our progressive aims.
#35
Zero G.,
What power there is in poetry. (I also consider our greatest musicians to be poets.)
#36
Zero, In Portland we had a little over one hundred people, I'm guessing. I was so glad to be there to speak to the activists. One of the male leaders from the radical socialist women spoke to me about the fact that capitalism is so at odds with what most women value that empowering women is still the key to change. I think he is talking about the "feminine" side of all of us, though, and that's why he is a leader in a group of "radical women socialists":-)
#37
America Without a Middle Class --- Elizabeth Warren
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-warren/america-without-a-middle_...
#38
One movement we could do is a New Tribal Movement. Reinstate the tribal-democratic values that humans had since the beginning of TIME.
#39
Dday,
"I can’t savage him/her over the “realities” which I disagree. I am not so downtrodden to set the bar so low. Our reach must always exceed our grasp."
What does this mean?
#40
OOoooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
and a bubble for Buddah. (See Wavy Gravy)
After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water.
#41
NON SEQUITERS =P o_0
#42
I love your wise words, Food Fascist..."IF I am all wrong and the laws of the Tao with regards to polarity are correct however, every time we create a Mother Theresa, we also create a Charles Manson – so I do not want to be self righteous and like Roger Daltry of the Who sings -and if I ……….. ………. ….before if I smile and act like a fool …..oh somebody help me with the lyrics here…"
thank you
#43
THX everyone and especially for those WHO lyrics !
Exactly, I do not want to become a nutcase, but like a Lorax (lyrics set to Madonna's like a Virgin!)
When my fist clenches, crack it open
Before I use it and lose my cool
When I smile, tell me some bad news
Before I laugh and act like a fool
If I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
If I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat
No one knows what it’s like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
Thomas, tell us more tomorrow about this tribal movement - sounds fun!
Go forth and multiply!
#44
Thom,
Now for something completely different.
Last night the History Channel had a fascinating program hypothesizing the original intent and use of Stonehenge. Here's part of the summary:
"...a new theory--that ancient people may have used the sound reverberations inside this circle to induce a trance-like state among participants in ancient rituals..."
It will be reaired Dec. 12.
http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=514540
#45
o.0 ..........................................
#46
...................................... Bye! =D (0_o I's is watching yous!)
#47
Well I'm listening to you Thom, I mean I'm watching everyone else, ...sort of.
#48
@Loretta
Sorry I was probably too cryptic. There several things about liberals being unable to govern that I don't buy. L. Grace said they were only being realistic. ie. realities
I hate being told something can't be done or that it isn't realistic. We must reach for the perfect even though we realize that we will fall short. Or reach must exceed our grasp. I understand the complaint about liberals throwing our leaders under the bus when we disagree. It is a real concern, but, don't tell me I can't speak up and complain when I was one of those who worked so hard to get this man elected. That is especially true when he, (Obama), doesn't seem to pay any attention to my concerns now that he has been elected. If President Obama won't show progressives respect, then maybe we should give him reason to fear our disappointment. Our collect voices and will are more important ultimately than marching in lock step with our mouths shut like good little soldiers. We saw where that got the rank and file Republicans. The use of the word savage was hyperbole intended as humor. Any joke that needs explaining is a bad joke. Sorry :-)
#49
Dday,
gosh, you don't have anything to apologize. My question was the cryptic comment.... but I am glad I asked it because I enjoyed your response.
"If President Obama won’t show progressives respect, then maybe we should give him reason to fear our disappointment. Our collective voices and will are more important ultimately than marching in lock step with our mouths shut like good little soldiers."
I have been defending President Obama at every turn but his speech and it's fervent call to war via 9/11 made my stomach turn because it sounded so much like George Bush. I feel blood on my hands here, and am not sure what to do as we don't have the strong anti-war support we had for Iraq.
But in a way I am comforted but the fact that many people I love and respect actually feel the escalation is a "good idea". A man I love very much wrote this to me...
"These bastards actually came down from the hills and cut off the arms of children that some of our military had inoculated for polio. These are religious fanatics who, if we do something similar to the awakening program in Iraq, and get the local tribal leaders to go after them, may be defeated. And lets not forget the drugs. Massive amounts of Opium and Marijuana grown there. Lots of money, for the few who have an idea of what the hell money is, to be made. Corruption is rampant. 18 months may not be enough." He went on to say that the Taliban must be controlled before can do anything to help with building infrastructure.
I can't seem to think of this. I only see women and children in the homes they work hard to build terrified by bombs. That's all I can think of and I feel only guilt. Why can't we use our military to stand guard while we help them build schools, libraries, roads and hospital? Why do bombs get the money instead of well-protected carpenters? I'm one of the liberals Mark is speaking about in his post. I don't understand war.
I understand your joke now. I am sorry that my cryptic question made you feel the need to apologize:-)
#50
Some people may feel bad for Jason, our caller that made Thom explode today, but that was Thom at a 6. You don't want to see him at a 10! LoL
Just a fun Quote from "Step Brothers" that had us laughing in the control room today.
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Civilization is based upon the systematic genocide/conquest of tribal peoples or anyone living contrary to civilizations viral/cancerous values. It all started in our culture with the rise of totalitarian agriculture, in that all the land on Earth belongs to us and if anyone is against us (such as "nature") then they deserve to die.
While this mindset does not at all reflect ourselves or the human mind, it is there in our culture and a few actually believe it. Poverty arose because the conquerers wanted to make the conquered slaves or to exterminate or to absorb them in our ways. If our "cancerous" values were no longer made sense to us then poverty wouldn't even exist.