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Palindromedary ~ Giving the camera the finger means nothing. White bikers do it all the time. Being photographed doing it is a counterculture gesture independent of race and nothing else. I agree that what transpired at the car is a critical element as to what happened. Personally, both the idea that Brown was pulled into the car by Wilson, and that Brown punched Wilson for no reason are absurd. I don't buy either story. I haven't seen or heard enough evidence either way. Regardless, even if Brown struck Wilson and ran that doesn't excuse Wilson for getting out of his car and chasing him if he really was afraid of the big bad black man. It certainly does not excuse Wilson for discharging his entire weapon. The only thing that would excuse Wilson is if it were proven in a court of law, before a jury, that Brown charged Wilson and continued to charge until the final shot was fired. That is all Mike Papantonio and I are asking for. A chance to cross examine the forensic experts. We just want to be sure that Wilson didn't unload a weapon on an unarmed kid standing still with his hands in the air. The whole world wants to know that. It would be easy to prove with blood splatter analysis in a courtroom and this issue is behind us. By denying us that trial, the justice department is painting the picture of a coverup. You know what a coverup is don't you? I personally cannot blame the African American community for being outraged. I'm outraged and you should be too. I also find it very interesting that the Governor out there declared a state of emergency and called out the National Guard long before the decision was ever reached. A very provocative act.
One other thing, Palindromedary, kindly refrain from claiming you know what happened when you obviously don't. You're not clairvoyant are you? You were not there and the only eyewitness to what happened in the car was Wilson. If you buy that one sided story and use it to justify his subsequent behavior you are really displaying a lack of open mindedness which is critical into getting to the truth. The only thing that is going to stop these riots and attacks are the truth and justice. You are standing in the way of that.
One thing we know for sure was that Wilson was pissed off when he got out of his car. Wilson was about the same size as Brown; and, trained in self defense. The idea that a man like that with a gun in his hand who chases an unarmed kid is suddenly going to become terrified for his own life amuses me. The fact that you believe that story astonishes me. The only question I have is if Wilson shot Brown out of fear; or, out of anger and hatred. The simply logical fact of the matter remains that if he really was afraid for his life he should have stayed in his car, called for backup, and waited for them to arrive. The fact that he didn't sheds doubt on his story and warrants a trial. I see no other way of looking at it. Thank God there will be a civil trial. Just like with OJ, maybe we will get the truth out of the civil action.
PS Happy Thanksgiving, buddy!
Maybe Darren Wilson could be prosecuted for perjury.
I usually agree with most everything Mike Papantonio says...but not it this case! MB attacked Wilson sitting in his squad car. MB bullied the convenience store operator. They found MJ in MB's blood. He was a huge bully that, in my opinion, was on the path of possibly doing something much worse down the line. His attitude sucked and anyone who attacks a cop like that shows right off the bat that he was a loose cannon ready to hurt someone else. By the way, they keep showing a picture of poor little MB, innocent teen, but what about these photos?
http://clashdaily.com/2014/08/thug-life-leaked-pics-michael-brown-show-r...
In this discussion, where the guy was white, he was involved in a hit-and-run accident and just kept driving...he wouldn't even stop for the police when they tried to pull him over. He was obviously a danger to the community.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/bluedog-294/blog/2014/11/man-charged-b...
Poltifact is one of the worst truth-detetectors in the business. They should generally be ignored.
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Correction: Delete the word "NOT" in the last sentence
The democratic party will never regain its true role as a governing party until it returns to its populist peoples party from FDR to Reagan. Instead of being a wimpy opposition party sucking up to Wall Street and the elite, they must speak with a single and proud voice about what the Democratic Party has accomplished for Americas working class and main street. Capitalist greed has always been ready and have reared their greedy head many times throughout our history and it has always been the public outcry and unity that has smacked them back down in to well regulated free enterprise place. That day has arrived and again we the people must learn how to speak with a single voice and message. Cable media can no longer be trusted so we must not become organized and united around the internet and social media. That is if we can protect it from the FCC.
From Ring of Fire, Papantonio expands on his assessment of the Grand Jury decision in Ferguson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQseDxnMMt8
The Dems need to stop letting the Corpse Media dictate ball possession. Perpetual defense never wins the game. Allowing Corp/billionaire media propaganda to constantly carry the ball and beat down the truth has lead directly to Anti-Democracy, Pro-Fascism, Tea Party extremism. This is how Teabaggers like Tom Reed get re-elected. It's all about big money paying for big lies.....knowing full well the general public won't bother to seek the truth....the truth exposed in the congressional voting record.
If the truth ever got out, the entire country would explode like Ferguson, overnight it would be the end of the Teapublican party and the Fascist Corp/billionaires they represent.
Aliceinwonderland ~ (Reply to #24) That is a very good point and I wanted to respond to it too. The man should have had Medicare. Anything else he had should have merely been supplemental. That really is the big hole in this whole story. One of the reasons I didn't mind changing the subject--even Thom wonders if the story is true
Palindromedary ~ Yeah, you gotta love the New York Times. Here's an article about how one of their columnists is demanding that Elizabeth Warren stops hurting Wall Street's feelings. Not a very progressive rag. It is obvious whos back pocket they are in.
http://www.salon.com/2014/11/25/new_york_times_columnist_demands_that_elizabeth_warren_stop_hurting_wall_streets_feelings/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Once more, how about an actual choice with these polls, not two versions of the same answer. Secondly, yes, I agree with the outcome. Brown acted in an aggressive manner towards a police officer. Brown was obviously big physically, and had a reputation as a bully (which was demostrated by the video of the robbery minutes before). Obviously Wilson felt threatened and acted the same way most anyone else would have.
Could it have been handled differently? Sure. Brown could simply have complied, but he didn't. Perhaps if Wilson had a non-lethal means to subdue Brown, he may have used it, but it also could have put Wilson in greater danger if Brown was still able to overpower him. There's are dozens of "what-if" sceneros, but none better than Brown simply doing as he was asked by Wilson in the first place.
As for the violence, there is simply no excuse. Protests all you want, not these people have no right to destory property, steal and rob, or injury people which, in the end, is all America will take aways form this.
Reply to #8: excellent question hibatt! I'm very curious what the answer would be. Why couldn't an 85-year-old with prostate cancer be availed necessary life-saving treatment via Medicare?
If you take the "profit motive" out, you also take out a large portion of individuals who want to go into medicine. Yes, most, if not the overall majority endure the years of advanced education, long hours, continuing education and low pay (in the beginning), huge student debt, and high start up costs and malpratice premiums out of humanitarian reasons, but there also is the self interest reasons, and that includes the opportunity to make money; in some cases lots of it. In removing the "profit motive", you also reduce the interests to spend millions in R&D, not to mention years in trials.
Yes, the profit margins are sometimes unreasonable, but not always, and usually on certain drugs in order to help cover the costs of the hundreds or thousands of other deadends. However, the costs imposed by hospitials on some items are obscenely outragious, such as for gloves, bandaides, gauges, and some common medicines like aspirin, or for tests that aren't needed (even the markup on some tests are uncalled for).
In short, you can't eliminate the need for profit. It's essential for the same of motivation and afterall, someone has to pay the costs; this isn't free. However, there should be restrictions on the markups or overprescribing tests or even medicines. There should also be more emphasis on prevention; at least as much as on treatment. If we can reduce the causes up front, we will reduce on costs on the end.
Senator Chuck "Carried Interest" Schumer wants party faithfuls to believe he's on their side of Middle Class America while in the same breath, blocking and voting against anti-Wall Street regulation and Corporate Welfare (aka Crony Capitalism by the political Right).
RE: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-12/warren-said-to-meet-with-reid-to-discuss-leadership-role.html. Seriously!? They will cancel each other's vote out.... so business as usual in 2015 - 2016: "She will be strategic policy adviser to the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee, led by Senator Charles Schumer of New York. This places Warren, one of the Democratic Party’s chief critics of Wall Street, under the leadership of Schumer, one of Wall Street’s biggest backers in the Senate. "
Republicans have successfully established the political ground game for 2016. They will try and make it all about Hillary, the person, delegating Senator Rand Paul to lead the charge.
Will Hillary triangulate or enlist her husband, since she is no ‘Bill Clinton’ and is certainly no ‘Barack Obama’. No doubt she can fight back, but as again, who gives a “F” about Hillary the person other than perhaps, Monica, Cuban Cigars, and a blue dress. Invoking those issues by Republican operatives will be enough for her to first bristle, then cringe, and finally, dismiss it as old news as her way of dealing with the Republicans and critics within the Democratic party.
Shouldn'r one think of policy substance over the optics of having the first woman president of the United States. I will not be getting behind her candidacy as the first woman president, nor will I be voting for her if she decides to run..... Sen Rand Paul’s FB poke-in-the-eye says it all although, losing not for the reasons Mr. Paul is suggesting, but again, it’s hard to imagine Dumbocrats admitting and agreeing to the post-election analysis of their party’s base for the true reasons:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152609510486107.1073741829.54172246106&type=1
Their first mistake was when earlier this year, the DNC says it would not share monies from their national coffers to Democratic Senate and Congressional races because they’re saving it all for Ready for Hillary. The second and probably their bigger mistake, was in their Messaging. They should now fire Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and hire the marketing likes of Joni Ernst. But, because the party as a whole leans more Republican-lite, the Dumbocrats failed again, as usual, to capture the dissatisfaction and angry sentiment of the voters.
This should have been the rallying cry of Democrats if they had any spine:
Make the Corporate - Elitist - Power Structure Squeal like Real PIGS!
If Hillary Clinton is being described by Democratic pundits as “tough as nails”, could Hillary be as equally tenacious on such policy matters as tax reform/Income Inequality, Transpacific Partnership; Keystone XL Pipeline, gun control, Immigration, Citizens United, the NSA, TBTF, rent seeking, crony capitalism, and many more – as to the kind of toughness she often likes to project in her already hawkish - standing with Israel right or wrong - foreign policy positions.
Considering Hillary’s milquetoast response when asked to comment recently about Wall Street and income inequality, Thomm, the answer would be clearly and obviously….no. She would NOT demonstrate nor act on those issues to the benefit of The Many, but rather to the benefit of A Few. Too many examples that would support my contention but one over-arching example would be: if the Transpacific Partnership (TPP) gets adopted, we can fairly say that our politicians from both sides of the aisle firstly outsourced our livelihood and now, what remains of our country’s sovereignty.
Bob Shrum along with other political observers say Hillary could change, saying she has already acknowledged her mistaken vote on the authorization to use military force in Iraq (a comment that would be buried on the last page of the New York Times); although, she had also supported in taking military action in Syria earlier this year, and would probably of all things, approve of Israel sending nuclear weapons over Iran.
So, Thomm, will Hillary be willing to change as you commented on a past radio broadcast? ...... Like most pols, she's in it mostly for herself to make history, reward her corporate donors, and make half-hearted/shallow remarks to satisfy and shut-up the Democratic base of the party.
Senator Chuck "Carried Interest" Schumer wants party faithfuls to believe he's on their side of Middle Class America while in the same breath, blocking and voting against anti-Wall Street regulation and Corporate Welfare (aka Crony Capitalism by the political Right).
RE: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-12/warren-said-to-meet-with-reid-to-discuss-leadership-role.html. Seriously!? They will cancel each other's vote out.... so business as usual in 2015 - 2016: "She will be strategic policy adviser to the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee, led by Senator Charles Schumer of New York. This places Warren, one of the Democratic Party’s chief critics of Wall Street, under the leadership of Schumer, one of Wall Street’s biggest backers in the Senate. "
Republicans have successfully established the political ground game for 2016. They will try and make it all about Hillary, the person, delegating Senator Rand Paul to lead the charge.
Will Hillary triangulate or enlist her husband, since she is no ‘Bill Clinton’ and is certainly no ‘Barack Obama’. No doubt she can fight back, but as again, who gives a “F” about Hillary the person other than perhaps, Monica, Cuban Cigars, and a blue dress. Invoking those issues by Republican operatives will be enough for her to first bristle, then cringe, and finally, dismiss it as old news as her way of dealing with the Republicans and critics within the Democratic party.
Shouldn'r one think of policy substance over the optics of having the first woman president of the United States. I will not be getting behind her candidacy as the first woman president, nor will I be voting for her if she decides to run..... Sen Rand Paul’s FB poke-in-the-eye says it all although, losing not for the reasons Mr. Paul is suggesting, but again, it’s hard to imagine Dumbocrats admitting and agreeing to the post-election analysis of their party’s base for the true reasons:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152609510486107.1073741829.54172246106&type=1
Their first mistake was when earlier this year, the DNC says it would not share monies from their national coffers to Democratic Senate and Congressional races because they’re saving it all for Ready for Hillary. The second and probably their bigger mistake, was in their Messaging. They should now fire Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and hire the marketing likes of Joni Ernst. But, because the party as a whole leans more Republican-lite, the Dumbocrats failed again, as usual, to capture the dissatisfaction and angry sentiment of the voters.
This should have been the rallying cry of Democrats if they had any spine:
Make the Corporate - Elitist - Power Structure Squeal like Real PIGS!
If Hillary Clinton is being described by Democratic pundits as “tough as nails”, could Hillary be as equally tenacious on such policy matters as tax reform/Income Inequality, Transpacific Partnership; Keystone XL Pipeline, gun control, Immigration, Citizens United, the NSA, TBTF, rent seeking, crony capitalism, and many more – as to the kind of toughness she often likes to project in her already hawkish - standing with Israel right or wrong - foreign policy positions.
Considering Hillary’s milquetoast response when asked to comment recently about Wall Street and income inequality, Thomm, the answer would be clearly and obviously….no. She would NOT demonstrate nor act on those issues to the benefit of The Many, but rather to the benefit of A Few. Too many examples that would support my contention but one over-arching example would be: if the Transpacific Partnership (TPP) gets adopted, we can fairly say that our politicians from both sides of the aisle firstly outsourced our livelihood and now, what remains of our country’s sovereignty.
Bob Shrum along with other political observers say Hillary could change, saying she has already acknowledged her mistaken vote on the authorization to use military force in Iraq (a comment that would be buried on the last page of the New York Times); although, she had also supported in taking military action in Syria earlier this year, and would probably of all things, approve of Israel sending nuclear weapons over Iran.
So, Thomm, will Hillary be willing to change as you commented on a past radio broadcast? ...... Like most pols, she's in it mostly for herself to make history, reward her corporate donors, and make half-hearted/shallow remarks to satisfy and shut-up the Democratic base of the party.
As far as I can see we have 2 progressives.... Bernie Sanders, who actually is an Independent, and Elizabeth Warren. Are their others?
We need more like them!
It seem the Democrats will fold as quickly as a dollar bill any more. Our elected officials like in the state of Kentucky and Louisiana are disgusting.
What is being fed to the people in States like Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Maine, Wisconsin, Kansas, Iowa, Texas??? Are they spiking the water? They are ruining the state and got reelected.... I don't get it.... Kentucky, I get it.. she ran so fast and far away from Obama, she landed right in the middle of the Teaparty
Ou812, Palindromedary, and UNC Tarheels ~ Here you go, straight from the horses mouth. An Ed Show interview with attorney, Mike Papantonio, and the Brown's family attorney, Daryl Parks, which explains how the District Attorney's played the jury to lead them to not indict Wilson. As I suspected all along, the office was in on it; and, the Grand Jury investigation was a dog and pony show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bKKLYiUlvM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-mich...
Ou812 ~ Yes, I agree! It certainly does work; especially, if you happen to be the right color, have enough money, or are sitting on the right side of a badge. It works just great. How do we know that district attorney, the police chief, and the Mayor weren't in on not pursuing the case as well as they could? Several towns in the south have a nasty reputation for such collusion. Even the Governor seemed to know the outcome of the investigation far before the verdict was reached. How can that be? It seems like Wilson's known testimony conflicted with several eye witnesses that I've heard. I have yet to see a shred of physical evidence that Wilson was assaulted in anyway. I have, however, seen falsified evidence and a video of him pacing around immediately after the shooting where he clearly wasn't injured at all. I also saw a report of how Brown was shot, and how many bullets were fired from a distance. Witnesses say he was standing still with his hands in the air asking Wilson not to shoot anymore. How many times do you have to shoot an unarmed kid with his hands in the air in the head and torso before you feel non threatened?
The system works alright--if you're a white cop. It doesn't seem to work that great if you are a black man. Certainly, it is far from fair and has been so for some time. At least it didn't do any of these black men any good:
http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?news_id=1597
Perhaps you don't realize that when the civil rights of any one of us is diminished we are all at risk. If we can not stand up for our rights together, we will surely fall together.
so much for the claim that the prosecution can get a ham sandwich indicted. maybe a better chance if it would be a "black" forest ham sandwich.
"This week, we learned that Warren will be joining the Senate Democratic leadership as strategic policy adviser to the Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. In this role — created specifically for her — she will help craft the party’s policies and priorities as well as serve as a liaison to progressive groups."
There IS HOPE in the Progressive Dem base!
As an undergrad B.S. on socio-political sciences and researcher of most U.S. socio-political issues, it's critical to UNDERSTAND not only how the paradigm of left wing/right wing political spectrum, but ALSO the FACT that 'citizens united' forced upon us by extremist right wing political operatives beholden SOLELY to the Republican Party fascist supreme court justices overturning hundreds of years of American Supreme Court history of decisions bt implementing this fallcious egregious legislation along with ALL other fascist-inspired legislation. So looking at Schumer and both the progressive nd corporate base of the Democrat Party, Schumer is more like the Republicans of yesteryear, but how can anyone be elected without the big bucks coming from the corporates. While I agree with RichardofJeffer, he is completely unrealistic about 'citizen inspired Democracy--it ain't gonna happen! The big bucks needed for campaigning, FORCES the public office contender to 'suck up' to the big buck plutocrats and corporates in a 2 party system that WILL ALWAYS BE A 2 PARTY SYSTEM. Best KNOW who you vote for by the legislation they create or by their backgrounds as runner ups for the incumbent. THEN VOTE as if your life depended upon it--VOTE for the contender best representing your interests and NOT VOTE for whom the corporates and plutocrats try to mislead you into voting for, then TAKE BACK the right to vote from the Republicanized states massively throwing good Dem voters out of voting at ALL elections.
The sad fact is that the two major parties are so corrupt and pro-oligarchy that at the national level neither of them remotely represent the vast majority of Americans. Classic populism sounds good, but is unlikely to get much traction. For one thing the mainstream media is so tightly controlled by the power interests that they won't allow a reasonable national discussion. They certainly does not want any independent leader to arise; consider how John Dean was treated when he discussed breaking up the big media interests.
While a major turnaround is possible if things get bad enough (think 1932), the fragmentation of the country into distrustful groups makes this difficult. I fear we're in a late Roman Republic situation, waiting for a Caesar to"restore order." The trappings of the national government might continue, but power will be increasingly consolidated into a smaller and smaller group.
I suggest that the Democrats embrace and adopt the platform of the Unite America Party, which is a platform open to ANY political party to advocate.
Support the Unite America Party Platform, published by The Huffington Post at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-reber/platform-of-the-unite-ame_b_547... as well as Nation Of Change at http://www.nationofchange.org/platform-unite-america-party-1402409962 and OpEd News at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Platform-of-the-Unite-Amer-by-Gary-Rebe....