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Mark, I've posted my two cents' worth in that discussion and I've got your back, buddy. Palin and Jessel are more than a little overbearing, and it's irritating. If all my fellow atheists acted like that, it would make terrible PR for atheism! - AIW
Is belligerence your exclusive privilege? I dare say, after all the pages of venom you spewed accusing me and everybody who thinks like me of the same thing, you asked for and well deserved that little bit.
Anyway, it's not your belief but your fanatical obsession and absolutely venomous and bellicose intolerance I consider unwell.
Hey everybody, I'd just like to let y'all know that I've posted a reply on the blog of the day before yesterday, when me and Pali were goin' at it.
Seems my username got blocked again. I hope it isn't because, after Pali spewed all kinds of venom at me and everybody who thinks like me, calling us all insane and what not, for having our beliefs, that he had his widda feelings hurt when I mildly suggested something similar about him - not for having his beliefs but for his obssesive, maniacal and belligerent intolerance and closed mindedness.
Just another example of the reich-wing's position that the wealthy have just a little more free speech than the poor and what's left of the middle class. (Can I still say that?)
Poverty is killing us, and the TPP and other free trade agreements will exacerbate poverty and be the end of our civilization.
As Julia Sweeney said in one of her monologues: She was invited to attend, and give a talk at, a government sponsored program to support dying cancer patients. And she was warned not to mention, in her talk, that she was an atheist. After emphasizing this several times saying "after all, it is a government function". So she shows up and all she could see were people wearing crosses...some diamond encrusted. And when the nun gets up to start off the function she says: "And now, before we start, let's all bow our heads for a 'non-denominational' prayer"....."Our father who art in heaven.." ..or something like that. It got lots of laughs!
Jesselebby:
Have you ever heard of Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-presidents of FFRF(Freedom From Religion Foundation)? They have their own web site and radio program at www.ffrf.org
Dan Barker was also a very devout young man who went around trying to convert people to his religion. He became a preacher and and very talented song writer and pianist who wrote many religious songs that are still being sung by religious people today. He eventually realized that his religious beliefs were wrong and finally became an atheist. He and his atheist wife founded the ffrf organization and they frequently highlight, and have on their show, very famous atheists. Like Jack London was an atheist. And so is Julia Sweeney, an actor and very funny comedienne who often appears on the ffrf radio show and has several appearances on NPR and TedTalks. Her recent get together with Jill Sobule (guitarist and singer) has produced the Jill and Julia Show on NPR.
http://www.npr.org/event/music/241601710/the-jill-julia-show-on-mountain...
This story reminds me of the many times throughout history where other people afflicted with "cognitive dissonance", not to mention extreme gullibility, have listened to some preacher, or other end-of-the-worlders, who convinced others that the end of the world would come at a certain date. In one case they all hid down in caves just to eventually come out when their "prophecy" did not come true. And did they come to realize that their prophet was full of it? No, they went right back to their cognitive dissonance with some excuse why they were off in their dates. They were still convinced that the end of the world would still come heralding in the second coming of Jesus Christ. But what would a Jesus Christ do with a burned out cinder of a world with no survivors if it really was the end of the world?
It also reminds me, when I used to listen to the Art Bell show, when this guy, Major Ed Dames, would come on the show and, with an alarming squeaky voice, would claim that the earth would be hit by a mega-strong sun flare that would fry the earth killing everyone on that side of the earth facing the sun at the time. He even moved to Tahiti believing that Tahiti would be on the far side of the sun flare. Well, that was quite a few years ago and Ed Dames eventually came crawling out of his "cave" to continue freaking people out with other alarmist scare stories. Even before the Sun flare scare story he had some wild story about the earth being attacked by extraterrestrial aliens that would land in Arizona. People even went out to the peak where they were supposed to land to witness their landing.
And the Marshall Applewhite Heaven's Gate people, and the Jim Jones People's Temple people, and the David Koresh Branch Davidian people and the Rajneeshi people...and one could go on a long time naming all of the foolish people who believed in nonsense that got many of themselves killed or left with all their worldly goods donated to these flam-flammers. It is a whole lot safer to stick with natural beliefs rather than supernatural ones.
Sorry I was reffering to Palindromedary as Phil instead of Palin for short. Reading the war or words these two were having prompted me to comment. I seen Palin trying really hard to get through and in response see Mark retaliating with utter nonsense about Palin needing mental help. Of the two it's Mark that seems to have a problem with logical debate. A halmark of the conservative mind. A few other things he said about ooparts( Out-of-place artifact )confirmed to me he believes in utter nonsense. Another halmart of the conservative mind. Highly gullible. I bet he is a Chariots of the Gods fan. I find time and again, now that I learned what to look for, that this problem with connecting the dots correctly is a defect of the conservative and libertarian mind. Not much difference between a libertarian and a conservative other than a libertarian wants to be left alone to have sex or drugs as they want. In other words freedom of choice there, but in all other ways unable to connect the dots and accept facts of life. Liberals and libertarians both agree the goverment should stay out of the bedroom. But the common ground pretty much ends there. I was just trying to tell Palin that he is spinning his wheels trying to get through to someone who has admitted to giving ooparts a legitimate place in historical studies. It's all the evidence I need to realize words are wasted on people like that. For a while now I've called them "smart idiots" I found it funny that the author of The Republican Brain used the exact phrase to descibe these kinds of people. So I guess I didn't coin it or did I?
HAH! It's unenforceable. These stupid control freaks can't control what's beyond their earshot. This is one dirty little secret they can't protect, no matter how hard they try. - Aliceinwonderland
Aw c'mon CK, get with the program! They're only hungry 'cause they're too lazy to get a job. Just ask Dave the conservative! If everyone was as "rational" and "competent" as Dave, we wouldn't be having this conversation. (Right, Dave?) - AIW
Jessel, who's Phil?
I think your observations about what distinguishes liberals from conservatives is spot-on.
While I've never been a theist, I think it would be arrogant to carry on like my world view is more accurate than someone else's, even if I happen to believe it is so. Why should athiests be acting like missionaries? I think other people's world view is best left alone. Live and let live. - AIW
I can see why a few people are attaching Palindromedary because he is trying so damned hard to make the blind see. I don't fault him for it however. Mark's response saying he needs mental help just because he is trying hard to make Mark see his errors tells me alot about Mark's attitudes. He's mounted up on the high horse for sure.
Phil, my advise to you is to not waste so much of you time writting long forum messages trying to convince magical thinkers the error in their thinking. Unless they come about on it on their own, like I did, you words are only bouncing right off their theistic cognitive mental armor. You would not understand it unless you were yourself a faith head at one time. If you were, then try and put yourself back in those shoes.
I've been reading some books about politics and the social science behind it. Two come to mind. Conservatives without Conscience, and The Republican Brain. What I learned about the conservative mind is that it is expert in entrenching, and making up their own facts to support their world view. They have a real problem with any facts that have an emotional connection to them. Things like 2+2=4 they have no problem with, but tell them we evolved from Apes and all of a sudden all rational thought shuts down. They dismis the evidence, saying it must be wrong, and then stretch for anything that keeps their world view in tact. I found this to be a spot on revelation about the right, and it explains so much about everything from their politics, to their denial of science, to their love of imaginary odd things like supernatural crap, aliens constructing the pyramids, giants human bones, reptile Illuminati, love of crazy conspiracy theories etc. Conservatives give odd ball stuff like this life because undernearth it all they are magical thinkers at heart.
When you confront them with facts Phil, a conservative Theist will just entrench. You're seeing it here as evidence. Conservative theists for the reasons social science has exposed, are almost imposible to reach with reason. I was different. I was a liberal theist at one time. Which explains why, on my own, and with little scientific reading, started to have doubt, then quickly accepted there is no god. Liberals are uniquely equiped to connect the dots. To embrance rational thought and dismiss faith. This explains why the university professors are so heavily liberal. Especially in science programs. Econ and business depts are full of conservatives for another reason. They love money, and love to tell people what to do. If you ever run across a liberal christian and befriend him, then by all means use persuasion to make them see the error of their world view. It would have worked on me if we had meet. If I had a mentor, my conversion from magical thinking to rational thinking could have been speed up a few years.
In summary, my advise to you Phil, is learn to walk away from those you suspect have no ability to connect the dots. Basically that means consevatives in general. A liberal theist can be reached. The level they would entrech is minimal, because liberals have very open minds. They can turn a 180 like I did and happily embrace the truth. In fact, they would be very thankful to have any of their errors in thought pointed out. You hear Thom say it all the time. He says please show me why I may be wrong. That's a halmark of a superior mind. A broken mind is one that entreches on holds firm to untruths. I feel some day we may find a cure for conservatism in its worst form, but until then you are wasting your time on trying to get them to see the light. Their shield of faith is to strong.
I beieve both Phil and Mark are using cognitive dissonance incorrectly. From Wikipedia it refers to the stress one feels when confronted with contradictions they are aware off. Actually I've spent a lot of time around Theists my whole life and was one at one time. True believers don't feel this stress. They see no contradictions here. Hence, people like them keep incorrectly calling an acceptance of the natural world over magical thinking a faith in itself. This incorrect misapproparation of faith has been throughly trashed by a Darkins, Sam Harris, Hitchens, Dennet etc.
6 month transistion. Once fully Atheist, I've never had another case of cognitive dissonance. It would never happen again because my world view is now based on evidence and rational thinking. I know Theists think they are thinking rationally, because I was on both sides of that fence. At one time, I could not understand how people could be so stupid to not believe in god. I know now that I was just foolish and ignorant. I feel sympathy for those still stuck in belief. I realise not everyone has the potential to make the deductive leap.
10K, surely if we believe hard enough, clap our hands three times, the trickle-down fairy will save us! Thanks for a great mental image. AIW - thanks for the compliment. I remember pictures of desperately poor, hungry white families sitting on their porches during the depression. When you're hungry you just don't have the energy to go out for a round of tennis very often.
Dave- Why is it that you conservative assholes assume the rest of us should give a flippin' damn about your "Republican ideals" anyway? What's in it for us?!! Without such basics as education, a livable wage, universal healthcare or affordable housing- all of which your "Republican ideals" have systematically denied us- you've got one helluva nerve preaching about "incompetence" and "weakness" and what government supposedly "cannot do". How does anyone become "powerful" or "capable" - or "happy" - without any tangible means of upward mobility? Isn't a prosperous, healthy, educated citizenry the hallmark of any civilized society, let alone a democracy? Self-empowerment doesn't just materialize out of thin air! So please, spare us the condescending lectures and the platitudes about "personal responsibility"; about "rational and competent men" who don't need anything from society, who are above being "cared for" like "children". Try caring for yourself and your family on seven bucks an hour, with no benefits and no safety net!
"Republican ideals" have ruined this country. We are living under fascism now. Americans are divided into two classes: rich and poor. It's all about "winners" and "losers", with 99% of us the losers. In this rigged fucking shit hole you ideologues have created, "freedom" is nothing more than an abstraction for the vast majority of us. Corporations are "people" now, with more rights and privileges than real human beings can dream of… except of course, those billionaire welfare queens whose interests you serve. Y'all can just kiss my socialist ass. - Aliceinplunderland
Hey Palin, go to the April 24 thread ("Poverty is killing us"), pan down to MichaelMoore's post #20 and click on the youtube link he has there. Then on the sidebar click on George Carlin's monologue "Religion Is Bullshit". I think you'll appreciate that, if you haven't heard it already. - AIW
Michael when I said "they come down here to get out of the cold" did you think I meant they where coming from Hawaii
Michael dear comrade, you are not the cause of my nausea; it's what you've just described that sickens me to the core. Those two fascist clowns depicted in your avatar look like they're gloating over what they've just pulled over on us.
Yesterday I heard Thom predict that in 2016, we'll be choosing between Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton. And that freaks me out. I wanted to ask Thom, what about Bernie Sanders?! I swear, I'll write in Bernie's name if I have to. There's simply no way I will ever vote for Hillary.
Enough of the Clintons already!!! They promised us healthcare and gave us NAFTA. And media consolidation and "don't-ask-don't-tell", ad nauseam… Just fascists in sheeps' clothing! - AIW
You didn't say a goddam thing about their being here only for the winter. The implication was that the old people (like me) come here to retire becauae of our delightful winters. People here are as fat and out of shape as anywhere. Without air conditioning, only Mexican (Americans) would be here because, to them, this is Home.
AIW~ While I certainly don't want you to vomit, it's really just a clue as to how I feel that the voting public has been brainwashed into thinking that the Executive Branch is governed by the People, but the 2-party system simply laughs at our gullibility as they know the truth in the matter. Money doesn't talk, it swears (Bob Dylan). Or in the case of our Commanders-in-Chief, they know what foolish wimps we are to not go beyond the 2-party system and bring in some brave person that can affect real change. They made an example out of JFK and they killed John-John (W. was missing for 3 days from his campaign trail on July 16th, 1999, and his first appearance in public was to give his condolences to the Kennedy family, making him a "made man" and consequently trusted to carry out the oiligarchs' agenda).
If you're going to get sick, don't let me be the cause.
There are and have been, in fact, many very credible psychics, also studied and observed by scientists - and many charlatans, although I think that would be harder to fake to scientists and more scientifically oriented people.
Yeah 2950-10K, Pope Urban was probably a bad example to use - but, maybe not. He may've been some kinda spiritually advanced but didn't understand people not like him, people more scientifically developed and so he persecuted them - much like,say, the Soviets, who were a scientifically based atheist government, persecuted the believers - or, like Pali's intolerance of believers mirrors many believers' intolerance of non believers.
BTW, did you know that all those early astronomers, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler were astrologers? Isaac Newton is reported o have said to his friend, Edmund Halley (who discovered Halley's Comet), when he said something incredulous of astrology, "I, sir have studied he matter and you have not!"
I subscribe to Marxism, largely - though I've become more libertarian in my socialism recently - and I subscribe to Marxist social scientific thinking (although there's good reason to think that many anarchists are right to claim that Marx stole a lot of their scientific political economic and sociological thinking and took credit for it) and to what Alice said about patriarchal religion, patriarchal religion was a creation of patriarchal society not vice versa, a case of "man creating God in his own image", if you will, which always happens. Religion is always a reflection of the society that created it and patriarchal religion is the religion of civilization, i.e., of a society that has long domesticated plants and animals (and, by then, other people, as well), is agricultural and sedentary. The animisms of preagricultural societies, like those of the Native Americans, West African Yorubans (Santeria), and ancient Europeans (Wiccanism) are not patriarchal and are a reflection of their social ordrer.
Michael I guess you missed the part where I said they come here for the winter.
Most of the year it's too damned hot outside here to go for a damn walk. Who are you trying to kid. And learn English.
I agree with both Thom and Thomas......tax the rich and share the wealth with a guaranteed minimum income. The tax rates on the wealthy should revert back to pre-Reagan rates without any further argument. The biggest lie ever told has been fully exposed the last three decades. The trickle down fairy tale and the resulting extreme wealth for the few hasn't only destroyed the American Dream......it has destroyed America.