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Greenspan also later said something like he was wrong in his assumptions and deeply regretted his mistakes.
Dannemarc: Great! You have proven my case. Proselytizers are a pain in the .... and when they even bring up the subject in even glancing ways...like saying to someone when they sneeze: "God bless you!" That is a form of proselytizing. They either assume everyone believes they way they do and will appreciate the "blessing" or they are using a more subtle form of proselytization. If someone sneezed and I said to them: "Satan bless you!", what do you think people would think about me....a satanist trying to proselytize them into their religion?...someone looking for trouble? Would they punch me in the nose?
When someone even mentions something like reincarnation or the supernatural they are assuming that other people also believe in that stuff. Of course some do but many others don't.
I remember that even you, some time ago, frequently quoted scripture. Is that not also a form of proselytizing? For someone who sometimes tries to make people think that you are totally separate from the institutional religions you sure do seem to like quoting scripture. And the Bible is the main source from which the churches preach. You must assume that anyone reading your scriptural quotes will receive some kind of meaningful information from them...as if they were relevant. So, if in the future, you or anyone else thinks it is cute to proselytize us with those remarks, however slight, be prepared for proselytizing back from those who don't agree with your proselytizing.
My comments, on this blog, were directed to religious people and other people, in general, who believe in supernatural things that try to proselytize others into their belief systems. And if someone on this blog brings up a subject that I disagree with, am I not entitled to disagree with them? You seem to have no problem in disagreeing with others on this blog for their political, or otherwise, beliefs. Seems to me that you, and several others, have been very right-into Kend's face in your disagreements with him and others. Have you not used derogatory terms in referring to him and others you've strongly disagreed with? I think you have many times!
Why do you believe that religious beliefs, or beliefs in the supernatural, are any different than political or economic ones? Why do you think that people should just let go the proselytizations of religious and superstitious believers and not the beliefs of differing political or economic ones?
How many Christians would just let it pass... what the Muslims do in their Sharia laws...stoning women who were raped or who committed adultery while the aggressor or man lover often goes free? How about sexual mutilation of female children so that they remain chaste for when they marry? Or..having laws that condemn people to death for homosexuality or atheism? And many Muslims believe just what their Imams tell them that they have a duty to Allah to convert everyone on earth to Islam or if they don't convert they deserve to die. The Christian cult and all the other cults spawned from mother Catholic Church also has, as a basic tenet, to spread Christianity...convert everyone in the world to Christianity. But I don't think all those drones and helicopter guns ships are winning many over...just ticking them off to become future "terrorists".
There are many Christians who have not danced around the subject and have been very vocal about their hatred of the Muslim's beliefs. Do we condemn those Christians for daring to say what they believe in public forums about the Muslim religion? Yes, you can cherry pick and say that you have nothing against the Muslim religion...just the hard liner fundamentalist Imams who preach that stuff....but how many Muslim believers will deny, in public, that they disagree with those hard liner Imams?
And although the Christian religion doesn't overtly approve of those specific Muslim tenets...there are many Preachers, Priests, Rabbis and televangelists... very powerful ones, who can manipulate the beliefs of their massive flocks into doing bad things as well. They are not shy about confronting people who do not believe the way they do. So, why should we dance around, or just let go, any religious or supernatural subject that is mentioned on this blog?
I believe that if people do not have rational beliefs in the natural world and, instead, believe in supernatural things...things that have no valid evidence of their existence then they can be very dangerous and may act irrationally. Like the women who believed their children were possessed by demons and managed to murder them in exorcisms they conducted on them. This has happened quite a few times, actually. If you believe in such irrational things, it can lead you to do irrational things.
Dave -- I agree that the marketplace should decide wages and profit (just another version of supply and demand). I think the function of government is to ensure that the playing field is level. One measure of how level the playing field is the comparison of inflation and unemployment. I think US history has shown that each of these being in the vicinity of 4% has given us an optimal economy. Alan Greenspan has famously said he kept the unemployment above 5% to enable employers to demand more from their employees (I think his quote included something about making the workers insecure). Greenspan controlled both of these variables via the money supply. A fact which baffles me how the money supply can be that powerful.
Dave -- You should look at what has happened in history. For example in the last 50+ years. The US economy from 1930 to 1980 was doing better than any economy has ever done in course of human events. Reagan became president and started to remove regulations. The economy started downhill. For example, I think 2 years into the Reagan presidency we suffered the worst recession since the great depression. Incidentally, the number of people playing video games at work is not a measure of the economy. However, you would probably be right in saying that if too many people are playing video games at work the GDP would probably go down. One, however, should look at the GDP not the number of people playing video games at work.
Thom says with some regularity that free markets always fail.
Dave -- Have you ever had a course in economics?
Dave -- You should really listen and respond to what the other bloggers are saying. Government has no power of its own. It is just a tool (laws) to decide what happens in the marketplace. Totalitarism is when the 1% is wielding that tool, Democracy is when the 99% are wielding that tool.
Deal.
Nice weekend to you and yours.
Palin -- This has nothing to do with what has been in any blog. Last night we had a power outage for 3 hours. In our home we have 4 VCRs that we use. Since they are VCRs, they probably can be registered as antiques. Two of the VCRs are Sony, one is a panasonic, and the other is a Mitshiubushi. When the power came back on, the Mitshibushi and the Panasonic came back on. However, neither Sony would even power up. This is so strange that I have been blaming it on ghosts. I have had VCRs fail in so many ways, but never have I had a VCR not power up. One of Sony's is making a strange thumping sound but no other sign of life. Help. Do you have any suggestions?
☮
Palindromedary ~ Good question! Here is my answer. Like you I hate proselytizing personal beliefs more than anything. It is annoying, intolerant, disrespectful, and arrogant. The Church teaches it's flock that the Gospel must be proselytize to all the nations before the Messiah returns. This is misleading. The Bible actually says that the Gospel must be published in all nations. Big difference! This is the main problem that gives most believers a bad rap. Furthermore, the church's stance is wrong, and ridiculous for two further simple logical reasons. First, a great investment--and that is all any belief system really is (ie the phrase, "I don't buy it.")--doesn't have to be peddled. People will walk 100 miles and stand in line for hours to participate in a really great thing. Second, it is blasphemy by it's own definition to assume you can do anything God can't. For those main reasons I hate proselytizing.
I can understand how such religious proselytizing can get on anyone's nerves. It still gets on my nerves. I don't have a commercial belief system and do not subscribe to any church. Nevertheless, people come to my door to save me all the time. They don't really care what I believe, they just want me to join their cult. I know that. I've taken the time to talk to them and read their literature. Even if you go to a church of your own they will push the fact that you are in danger because that isn't the right church. Even if you tell them you believe in God it isn't enough. Very, very annoying. It's like those old Tide commercials, it doesn't matter if you washed your shirt, you used the wrong soap and it isn't white enough to get you into heaven. I regret ever even opening the door. However, you do not have to believe in the supernatural to proselytize a belief system. Atheism is also a belief system. When insisting that it is the only true belief system is just as arrogant, self righteous, intolerant, disrespectful, and annoying as the proselytizing of any organized religion.
If someone wants to share their belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster that is just fine. If you want to listen to it, that is just fine. Let's face the truth, such believes can no more be proved than they can be disproved. The minute they start to insist you believe it after you've decided not to, you have a problem. The same is true of Atheism and any other personal belief system. For all it's practicality Atheism is no more probable than any other belief system. The reason is because no one has ever returned from brain death to tell the tale. Chances are they never will. Therefore, personal belief of "living brains" should be honored and respected because we all share the need to embrace some belief. It is a human psychological need to know what to expect when we die because we as humans all know we are going to die some day. Hopefully, far far in the future. Nevertheless, the knowledge of it happening comes with unavoidable questions.
Palindromedary ~ Talking in the third person right in front of the individual you are really addressing, using derogatory pronouns such as "gullible fools", and "believers in superstitious nonsense" and then using that tense as a excuse for no wrongdoing is a textbook example of the personality disorder psychologists call passive aggressiveness. This is just a natural part of human behavior not a mental disorder. Big difference. We all display this disorder from time to time to one extent or another as a result of anger. (Anger makes us act irrationally--which is why it is such a non productive emotion.) Thom's comments about "flat earthers," were specific to a certain groups and not to any fellow bloggers simply by the fact that the comment came before the blog started. Your comments on the other hand was specifically directed not only to fellow bloggers on this blog; but, also to specific bloggers whose name will remain unstated because their identity is so blatantly obvious. The proof--among other things--is the fact that your comments came after theirs while addressing the same topic.
Personally, I will sum up my view of the atheist belief system again the same way I have many times before--I would prefer an honest atheist to a devout religious hypocrite any day of the week.
The world is full of devout religious hypocrites and they get on my nerves even more than they get on yours. Now I hope you didn't take that the wrong way like you have so many times in the past. I am actually giving you a huge compliment; and, saying that I'm just fine with your beliefs. That is all I expect in return.
Have a great weekend!!
Republicans just love to argue that the price of labor has to stay low to keep products "affordable". Hey Mister Businessman, wanna keep operating costs down? A universal single-payer healthcare system would eliminate the burden of all those bloated premiums businesses now must cover for their employees. This would greatly improve the status of U.S. manufacturers in the world market, eliminating a competitive disadvantage they now are saddled with, unlike manufacturers from other countries with their shit more together. Despite this obvious fact, as a group, small business owners in the U.S. (largely Republican) are stupid enough to consistently reject single payer healthcare as part of the solution. (Ohhh no… evil socialism!! Can't have that now, can we?!) It really is pathetic, considering the unfair burden our current healthcare system places on small businesses.
If you want loyal, devoted employees who don't play video games on the job and carry their weight, ya gotta pay a livable wage. It's that simple. We don't do this stuff to amuse ourselves; we do it to put food in the fridge and have a roof, and have a life. Working fulltime for poverty wages is bullshit, and this is what has to stop. We work to live, so pay up or shut up. I've heard enough of you guys complaining about the cost of labor. Ya git what'cha pay for! And workers must have a seat at the negotiating table. After all, they're the ones doing the actual WORK. No workers, no company! Nothin' complicated about that, no sir Mister Businessman. - Aliceindrudgeland
Thank you, Palin. It's always good to end a debate with a "handshake". We may never meet face-to-face, but I still consider you a good friend, one of several on this blog. (I think y'all know who you are…) - Aliceinwonderland
Dave, this discussion isn't about workers who play video games on company time or how a company determines the value of an employee's output. It's about pay discrimination, often racist or gender-based, and it's about bosses firing employees merely for discussing their salaries. Long as employees are performing their duties, they can discuss whatever they please. - Alice I.W.
P.S. I've plenty more to say on this topic, but it'll have to wait 'til later when I've more time to spare.
AIW: I stand corrected. Thank you! And I give up too! I hope you also have a nice weekend.
And, I remember back when I was still working at one corporation, how they would have this scheme of getting the workers to write their own reviews which were, ostensibly, meant to get us to believe that we had a chance of trying to convince the hatchet men, that eventually wrote our real reviews that we were worth not only remaining an employee but hopefully, a raise as well.
We had to sell ourselves to a supervisor or boss who was too ineffective in his job to notice each employee's worth by himself. I think it was more of a psychological ploy to keep the employee forever reminded that you were at the mercy of the corporation so that you didn't get the idea that the corporation wouldn't even exist were it not for the employees. The top heavy, worthless, upper echelon of corporate employees, ie: supervisors up to the CEOs and board chairmen, had to keep the lowly workers propagandized into believing that those exploiting them in unfair ways were actually benevolent, decent human beings with a sense of honest days pay for a honest days work. But there are some employee-owned businesses that show that these worthless pieces of arrogant twits, with their lofty positions in executive positions, should be the ones with smaller salaries and fewer company stocks and other perks.... with THEIR jobs on the line for not treating their underlings with more respect and fairness. Workers are not fooled by the shenanigans of these Machiavelian idolizers.
You can't blame what happens to this country on the workers who are just struggling to survive. But we sure can blame the criminals and traitors in the top echelons of big business because they are the real reason this country is going down hill. The US was once a leader in many things and set a good example which is why so many people wanted to come here. But it is fast becoming just another 3rd world country. With just a few extremely wealthy people at the top, no middle class, and the majority of poor people struggling to survive. It deserves what it dishes out and all it dishes out is crap , death, and mayhem. The US dumps it's crap and poisoned foods and drugs in other countries even more so than here..there are still a few laws that protect us...but not for very long. China is starting to set a good example, believe it or not....they actually execute their crooked top executives when they get filthy rich off of the deaths of their victims. In the US, these top execs don't even get punished in any way most of the time.
The US wastes lots of money and lives in illegally invading other sovereign countries that present no threat to us. And more recently, it has been fomenting internal dissent and revolutions against other sovereign countries. And many US corporations are getting wealthy off the blood of innocent civilians, including children, that get killed in these externally encouraged and aided "revolutions".
Oh, and I suppose the ridiculously high compensation of these company's top executives and the major stock holders have nothing to do with it? They live in exclusive gated communities in houses so large they could provide shelter for many families. And they commute in expensive luxury cars into the city where there are megalithic and very expensive office buildings where they have cushy offices and they don't waste company time on viewing porn or playing computer games in their comfy office chairs? I know of at least one company CEO that, when he went on business trips, he spent lots of company write off expenses on lap dancers and parties.When companies, which are driven by profit, are unregulated they tend to maximize their profit at the expense of everyone except the top executives and the stock holders (who are nothing but casino gamblers betting that they will win and others will lose..after the initial IPO, which ostensibly raises capital for start ups, it serves no other useful purpose than to provide a gambler's mecca. Sure, they claim that "investing" in the companies (buying and selling these stocks) helps to provide an incentive for the company to do well...but when CEOs, and other top execs can get away with selling their ridiculously large amount of company stock using insider information (who better than the top execs know what goes on in that company?). They have an unfair advantage despite the SEC's limitations on when they can buy and sell their own companies stock. They network and they know what is going on with other companies far more than the lowly investor so they often buy each others stock with insider information. They usually get away with it. And they also use the unfair advantage of high frequency trading. And then, there is the matter of hiding their loot in overseas banks or dummy corporations. How many lowly laborers can do that? They are stuck with paying 39% tax rate while corporations pay much less if any at all.
We need higher tax rates on wealthy people, corporations, big privately owned businesses and we need stricter regulations including stiff penalties for sending our jobs over seas.
Thom, as usual, you look at this 'problem' as somehow the business owner oppressing the worker. Its just not true.
In what way is employment NOT a contractual agreement between two private parties? (The employer and employee) The contract is both negotiable and re-negotiable. Have you never asked for a raise?
Have you never seen an incompetent worker spend time playing video games or steal supplies at work but still collect a paycheck? Have you never seen an individual produce excellent results and recieve bonuses, raises and other perks of reward? The interests of the business are best managed by the people who have a vested interest in its survival.
When you seek to get the Government involved to FORCE equality, you crush self-determinism in this cycle and the average wage goes DOWN. Not because of instant lowering of wages, but over time perks, benefits and raises will be denied until all are equally stuck in a lower range then they would have achieved through their own efforts. This is because there is a cost of doing business, and a significant factor in this is the Labor and in particular the Cost-Benefit ratio of labor. If labor does not produce more value to the business than it costs, then the business fails. It is management that sees to the viability of the organization by managing the operations of all aspects of the organization to produce its products (and sell them at profit).
Government intervention, by introducing arbitrary laws by force, upsets the balance and viability of those organizations. What your policies produce, ultimately, is Wal-Mart. Your policies create an environment wherfe only the biggest and most profitable survive as smaller independent businesses cannot absorb the new higher cost of labor thus go out of business. Or you get Detroit: whole communities devastated because the high cost of labor outpaces the value of the goods produced, creating a situation that over-priced products cannot compete in the marketplace, thus destroying the key businesses upon which the community economy is based.
Moreover by demanding Government take on a power that it has no right to, you further the march toward totalitarianism where all aspects of life are controlled by government. Yes, that point may be far down the road, but if you don't see that we are on the road and have been for 50+ years, then you are not as smart as you think you are. Or perhaps you want to be on this road and the thought of someone else making decisions for you is just fine.
So, while equal pay, sounds nice, there are far too many variables in determining what is 'equal work' to measure adequately who is equal to whom. No two workers, being human, will produce the same results or value for the company. So who are you, we or anyone not familiar with the operation of any business, to say how they should be FORCED to manage the costs of their business. The very notion of people who advocate against profitable (viable) business operation should make determinations here is absurd.
Again, I hope you will examine this information and re-evaluate your assumptions.
ML, Dave
Palin, "Type A" personalities are simply more aggressive, more driven and high-strung; "Type B's", more laid-back. It's an old concept that has nothing to do with "losing your temper" or "personal affronts".
There's just no reconciling with you, Palin. I give up.
Have a nice weekend. - AIW
Mark: No, I would never Flag you as offensive no matter what you called me nor would I ever intentionally flag anyone...except maybe someone who was actually trying to advertize...selling something...but the spam filters do a good job of catching those....I suppose. Actually, I mostly think you are very inoffensive, for the most part, and I agree with about 99% of everything you have ever said. So, I'm for giving this a rest...if you're game.
It has largely been irrational people with irrational ideas that has been behind the mass murders of many millions of people. So, you may have a passion against certain right wing groups but so do I and those right wing groups largely wear their religions on their sleeves and have been trying to force everyone else into their camps. You have your beliefs about the dangers of these groups and I have my beliefs about the dangers of the groups that knowingly, or unknowingly, try to proselytize others into their irrational beliefs. They can be very dangerous. From Muslims who want to turn everyone into Muslims and dead if you are an atheist to Christians who would if they still could burn people to the stake for heresy against their particular brand of religion....irrational beliefs are dangerous. And one irrational belief gives birth to others.
I am as tolerant of religion as religion is tolerant of me. They think I will burn in hell. I think they will just turn to worm food once they die with no "soul" to go anywhere..it will just disappear when they are pronounced brain dead and it won't go up to heaven or down to hell because those are all just-pretend ideas that exist in the minds (ie: live brains) of people who believe in them.Thank you for noticing! Yes, we all are judgmental about a lot of things aren't we all? But I don't think I have actually "accused" you of anything like that...asking a question that if you think you are is not the same thing as "accusing" you of it. And I am certainly not alone in being guilty of not detecting when someone is trying to be funny am I? Type A personalities, intense and high strung, are the people who lose their temper and fly off the handle and make direct personal affronts to those they are addressing. I don't think I fit any of those descriptions.
Why would you think I would be offended by what Thom said? Thom and I acually think very similarly. Thom is not without belief or, at least, stays open minded about the subject.
Science is studying the natural world. When it's time to do that it's not time to study the supernatural.
I would, in fact, like to apologize for what I said, not to PD but to Jesse, and really only because Alice said it for me before I did - which I didn't see before writing it - and therefore it was redundant, excessive and tantamount to being gratuitous.
Yes, Palindromedary, my user name has for some reason been blocked. The last time that happened I thought it was because I was too rough on a right winger on the member blogs but it turned out my choice of wording triggered the spam guard. This time I thought you lodged a complaint but it seems like you hadn't.
It does, in fact, seem that it's okay to attack some people, I mean, we beat up on Kend a lot worse than this all day long. Whatever else we think of Kend we gotta give him credit for being a good sport.
Yeah, Palindromedary, make sure you don't show any of your immaturity. I certainly wouldn't descibe you as not losing your cool although you're careful to always "speak in generalities". That's a technicallity, of course, you don't really think you're fooling anybody do you?
Just look at your behavior! You don't think you're being just a little psycho?
How come you don't quote my statements in their entirety? I called you "a man obsessed".
Okay Palin, maybe it was out-of-line for Mark to say you need a shrink. He's not here to speak for himself; I can only share my interpretation of what happened. I think your general intolerance of other beliefs systems is what triggered him, not your atheism.
I know I get triggered too, and yes I plead guilty to name calling. You've seen me go off on people occasionally, over issues I'm passionate about. I too have stepped over that line. But the issues that trigger me have to do with policies & conditions affecting our daily lives, and how we treat one another. Of course it can be argued, with some merit, that religion has had a significant impact on such things.
What sticks in my craw are any attempts at justifying a status quo that is toxic to so many of us, in so many ways. The latest example was "David in Vegas", that Republican guy, questioning people's right to extended unemployment benefits while at the same time, ignoring the devastating impact "free trade" and outsourcing has had on the availability of jobs. Dave's comments came across as condescending, paternalistic and judgmental. He was voicing an ideology I used to hear constantly on the boob tube, back in the days when I still had cable TV, and I've heard my fill of it. It's an ideology that has permeated our society and its institutions, that has left tens of thousands of us literally in ruins, destitute or dead. ("Soft genocide", as Marc calls it…) But as to whether "Dave in Vegas" believes in God or reincarnation or whatever… why should I care? Long as that belief system isn't oppressing or killing anyone, it's of no consequence to me.
Mark may have stepped over the line, questioning your mental stability. But I still think he was making a good point about religious intolerance, about atheists being as prone to this as anyone else. While I detect no personal attacks launched by you on this particular thread, I've previously observed you making judgmental remarks about people who you perceive to be gullible or delusional. You've even accused me of being "unquestioning" or "uncritical" (or something like that), just for my refusal to dismiss the possibility of reincarnation. I couldn't even make a joke about being "psychic" without you taking it literally!
I happen to view people's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) as their private affair. But should anyone try justifying creationism taught in a high school biology class, I'd go freakin' ballistic.
Anyway Palin, I concede, you've made some valid points. I plead guilty for bad behavior on occasion. I too have my triggers. I think you and I both are "Type A" personalities, intense and high strung and easily provoked. Maybe we both need to lighten up. I know; easier said than done! - Aliceinwonderland
Yes, you're right; I can attest to that. I was a victim of this practice nearly 50 years ago. But my supervisor tipped me off when he couldn't get a raise for me. I'll always be grateful to him for that.
What kind of loaded poll is this? Yes to both questions? Sure they differ in content... but still! Whatever happened to Yes or No. Or at least multiple choice. Right wing militia groups while I think are very dangerous, if they are not actually breaking the law, should not be subject to either of these choices. Maybe what we need more of if Left-wing militia. Maybe we shouldn't have any militia. If we had Left-wing militia they'd just shoot each other in the foot...if they even had guns to begin with.