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Great post
Wow....good exchange of ideas here. This fiscal cliff is pure Political BS. Extremes on both sides are doing what they typically do....scare tactics.
Frankly, I fear for my grand children and apologize to their parents for leaving them such crap. We elected these fruit cakes in DC and now we are stuck until the younger generations can bring back America.
Obama, Reid, Pelosi and Bohner. GOD HELP US!!!!
Ken, Romney was not my first choice I was more a Ron Paul supporter but unlike you I refuse to see this country sink into the dark hole of socialism and cultural degradation. To me Obama represents that faction. Socialism has never worked Anywhere. As far as taxes paid by me it does not matter because revenue is not the problem, spending money we don't have and can not confiscate from others is killing us. Inflation and weak ass temporary politicians are your enemy. If we get back to 7 percent inflation rate because of these spending policies your dollar today will be worth 50 cents in 10 years. Are you prepared for that in your retirement? That is what I call throwing granny over the cliff.
No confusion, Obama is lying again. There is no income tax reduction, you just get to continue to pay the same rate that you were paying for the last 12 years. But hold on to your wallet because taxing the rich will be redefined next year. When the dictator says give me the power to eliminate the debt ceiling I think he will be looking for more blood.
Put down the crack pipe bobbler, what are you talking about? Tell me how Obama is fixing the economy. He is an economic illiterate that manipulates you fools with his Sal Alinski tactics. Turn off MSLSD and read more.
Palindromedary - Your right I have been somewhat antagonistic towards you at times and my daughter says it is my nature to be challenging towards others, especially when it concerns politics! She has even asked me not to discuss politics with my son in law when she is there because I do at times enjoy being the antagonist when I discuss or debate a point of view different from mine. I actually enjoy sparring with people like yourself and others when it comes to subjects where there are multiple sides to the subject. Don't take it personally, I have a feeling you may have the same nature and like the last word as well! Ha! Again don't take it personally, if I seem to be coming on strong, it is part of my nature. As far as the conspiracies not fitting into my paradigm of reasoning, it is more to the point that after reading and checking out the sources you have quoted it seems illogical to perceive matters in that particular mind set. And I weigh out the costs to the benefits of specific conspiracies and whether it meets any logical pattern or paradigm. I respect your point of view, but I will continue to use the word crazy or illogical when I believe it applies. Especially when the theory does not support any logical reason for doing a specific act. As I have stated before I view politics as a game of war with only one winner in the aftermath. Compromise is a sign of weakness. Being a person with a socialistic mind set does not mean one is not a warrior in mind and spirit. I have no problem with other people using the same terminology towards me when it comes to my point of view or theory of why something is the way it is or why it happened...
Obama needs to learn how to negotiate. Start off with raising social security tax on ALL income. Negotiate it down to a donut hole for all income between 100k and 250k will not be taxed at all, no federal no FICA.
As for "taxes," it's payroll taxes that are strangling my small business.
I am in favor of eliminating the payroll tax ceiling.
The wealthy and their employers can just pony up their deduction and payroll tax debt to the system which helps to float the economy.
I am in favor of "Medicare for All."
It's a justifiable reason to raise my taxes...slightly.
News Flash! (Just heard it on the news...again..so it's really not new news but just a reinforcement of the propaganda machine trying to frighten people to make quick, irrational decisions):
Healthcare Insurers (this time it is Anthem Blue Cross..are in a mad rush to raise their premiums before Obamacare kicks in.
I'm all for the idea of preventing Healthcare Insurers from using pre-existing conditions to avoid paying the costs of an insured's medical expenses. But there is really nothing to keep these healthScare insurers from jacking up their already exorbitant rates. And they are (and have been) doing it already. They are now using the scare tactics that if you don't have health insurance now...you will be forced (by the government) to pay huge premiums later.
If Obama and the Democrats break the Republicans over this "fiscal cliff" smoke-and-mirrors then maybe we have a good chance of getting a single payer system.
What do I think? I think the President should negotiate removal of the CAP and turn Social Security into a living retirement amount much like the living wage concept. After all, why shouldn't a worker who has spent a lifetime making the so called job creator embarrassingly wealthy not deserve at least this minimal dignity in return. This way those who most benefited from working class toil are forced to do what is only fair and moral. I would suspect anyone making more in eight hours than his co- worker makes in an entire year can more than afford this extra tax.
Remember under the Obama plan everyone in taxable territory under $250,000 gets a tax break and on incomes above $250,000, the temporary extension on a temporary tax cut will end. This is not a tax increase, it's simply going back to the old rate as planned.
Subvert the Dominant Paradigm--Question Authority!
leighmif: That's because all those repub candidates running to grab jobs in government keep telling us the government is corrupt, inept, wasteful, and a few other things.
We need to put people in office who are honest and don't tell lies and fabricate things and flop whenever a new poll comes out.
Honest politicians exist. But you have to LISTEN to them and test their facts and opinions against truth and common sense. Might have to work at it a little.
Do the work!
Ken Ware..actually, I have always agreed with about 99% of what you have said in just about every one of your posts and every time you got upset with me and called me names..like paranoid... I got a big chuckle out of it...eventually. There were times when you berated me for various things and then you turned right around and said a bunch of things that I totally agreed with and thought I had, myself, said the same things before...leaving me wondering why you were getting so upset. I don't think that my post addressed anyone specifically (even though I did quote the phrase used by the previous post) and kept it a general reference to the whole group of people who tend to have that general mindset. I guess you aren't in agreement with me on the 911 conspiracy..but that is ok. But if you reread some of your posts with the idea in mind that others might think of your posts as having elements of conspiracy as well. Just as if you watch or listen to Thom Hartman's shows and blogs some other people could very well believe that he is a believer in conspiracies. And there will always be the hearer of those "conspiracies" who will tack on the word "crazy" to the "conspiracy" word because it doesn't readily fit into the hearer's paradigm.
I don't trust anyone in government.
I'm feeling exactly like I did immediately before the election: "Nothing will surprise me." Could be a total rout one way, or the opposite. I trust none of them, but very tentatively hope for the best, even while knowing that little to nothing at the highest (lowest) levels of the professional Radical-Right has changed -- and the cancer of big-money has infected the highest levels of both parties. We the people are still hanging on by the skin-of-our-teeth.
Why dies everyone engage right wingers like global. Their arguments are disingenuous at face value (nothing to discuss)..
For example his first sententry this thread:
"""that this president is out to destroy the system when his proposal is strip families and small businesses making over $250,000 per year of More of their hard earned income through taxes,"""
Surely everyone sees the obvious disconnect (with reality) here.
On a positive note, I'm glad Obama is moving foreward with fixing the economy, and hopefully ignoring the fiscal cliff bullshit.. Didn't people ever learn. Where were the WND? These grand accusations are to try and ffighten voters into buying their BS.
This civil war is different. We're gonna break the Republican's saber over our knee.
What's up with the rich? I didn't realize how fragile these job creators were. They need protection from us common folk who for some strange reason think that they should help clean up the mess they made. It took powerful rich people to ruin this country. It will take their ill gotten gains to fix it. I believe the money is there, and it's enough to fix everything. So get out of the way and let the President do his job.
SHFabian - I am only guessing, but I assume he is referring to the Americans that pay tax on their income versus those who make so little they are considered to be in the poverty level of income and therefore pay no tax on their meager earnings they make to support themselves and their families. Those that were called, "the working poor" when I was younger or those who Romney would not have represented in our society because they did not make enough money to be considered real Americans by his group of Billionaires and multi-millionaires. You know those people who use to send their kids off to war while the wealthier citizens found a way to buy themselves a way out of having to go to war like the rest of us.
Ok, President Obama: now is the time to prove that you have a set of cojones. You can prove it by:
1. NOT preemtively giving up everything that the people WHO ELECTED YOU want and need.
2. NOT saying things like, "I just want to reach across the aisle and be friends with people who hate me, even if it means giving up on the middle class and the poor." You need to understand something: they hate you because you're black. That is NOT going to change, so forget about being friends with them.
3. SAYING to the republicans, "My way, or the highway. You do this, or I go in front of the American people and tell them you, and you, and you, (naming the traitors and sellouts in the republican and democrate parties) want to turn American into a third world country."
To get an exact picture of how the tax burden has been shared go this N.Y. Times web site and enjoy an interactive graph(s) of how the taxes have shifted from 1980 under Reagan to 2010 under Bush. As well as all the tax schedules during Clinton and so on. It allows you to scan back and forth while changing the tax schedules for each year. It will give you an honest picture of what has happened. No guessing on how the Corporations have been paying less while the middle class has paid more taxes. It covers all income levels on income and earnings. It is a great little tool to play with and there are no partisian assumptions or claims.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/30/us/tax-burden.html
another note on it all. in the news last night was information regarding Costco and how Costco, to avoid a potential higher tax rate for it's holders is going to pay out a few billion in dividends. Makes for intersting thought when you consider say someone who bought stock eons ago just sat and let it earn. no sweat. no toiling. no nothing...
i do so love the "anit tax" meme!lol all the criers crying. fact is folks we can tax our way out of the mess but it needs to be a commitment by those who know they work the game. it really just boils down to not so much raising rates but moreover "taxing" every dollar taxed "equally". Like i've ranted on before there is no reason whatsoever that 100k of "taxable" income that is "pool side" should only have to pay $2,800 while Joe the truck driver and his waitress wife working 100 hours a week, trying to get the kids through college, which by the way have seen 300% tuition increases in just about a decade, having 84k of taxable income should have to pay $13,000 in taxes!!! See? it's people like us working stiffs that are sick of the gamed system and all said and done? the reality of it is there are more of us. It's time for a real tea party! Tax the crap out of the gamers for a while!!! Oh by the way i don't recall all the rich people i've know complaing much 20 years ago. you know? before the bush tax holiday....Death to the anti tax meme and lets get together and fix this idiodic country. don't forget Mr. Buffet...
The fiscal cliff is a fake problem that was created by Congress in 2010. They did not want to solve the fiscal problems in front of them and decided to kick the problem to after the presidential election in 2012. Now the chickens have come home to roost. Republicans believe they have winning cards because they can filibuster any of the President's plans in the United States Senate and vote down any of his plans because they have a majority in the House of Representatives. Republcans do not want to govern, they want to play politics all day every day. The President and the Democrats have listened to the will of the people. Republicans do not care that more than 60% of the public supports the President and the Democrats. Republicans do not fear the electorate because they rely on money from Grover Norquist and the Koch Brothers to keep them in office. However, all the President has to do is all the "fiscal cliff deadline" to pass, then the power shifts back to him and the Democrats. If he allows the deadline to pass, then the public will see that the Republicans would rather have the country face financial disaster if the millionaires and billionaires do not get tax cuts. The President merely has to hold his position until the Republicans fold their cards. After January 1, 2013 the Republicans lose all their bargaining position. I am praying that the Democrats and the President will stand their ground. This problem can be easily resolved without harming the poor and the middle class. The rich have benefitted the last 12 years amassing huge wealth taken from the middle class . . . it is time for them to pay for their unearned gains.