President Obama fired the opening salvo on Thursday...

In negotiations over the so-called “fiscal cliff.” In a plan presented to Republicans by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, the President is asking for $1.6 trillion in new revenue by letting the Bush tax cuts expire on the richest 2% of Americans, and by increasing capital gains and estate taxes, which are mostly paid by very wealthy Americans like Mitt Romney. The President’s plan also calls for more stimulus spending on infrastructure and investments to help struggling homeowners refinance their homes. It also completely does away with the pesky debt-ceiling that Republicans have shown a willingness to exploit to force big spending cuts against the working class.

Under the President’s plan, the automatic spending cuts against social programs and the military will be stopped, but the President is putting up $400 billion in cuts to entitlement programs to be negotiated in 2013. Republicans responded to the proposal with outrage. Conservative Fox News talking head Charles Krauthammer called the deal worse than what General Robert E. Lee received at Appomattox after the Civil War.

At its core – this deal makes sure the wealthy pay their fair share again, it helps struggling homeowners, it puts Americans back to work rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, and it doesn’t throw grandma under the bus by destroying Social Security and Medicare…no wonder why Republicans hate it! It looks like the President has finally figured out how to negotiate and he should be willing to stick to his principles and take the nation over the made-up “fiscal cliff” if Republicans don’t want to do what’s best for the American middle class.


Global's picture
Global 10 years 16 weeks ago

It should be absolutely clear to everybody that this president is out to destroy the system when his proposal is strip families and small businesses making over $250,000 per year of More of their hard earned income through taxes, and then want another stimulus spending spree and oh by the way get rid of that pesky ceiling on my credit card. Also, Medicare and social security are not to be touched because it is politically too hard to deal with. Never mind that the medicare spending is the number one driving force to more monumental debt. Not to mention the trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities to these programs. You have to be moronically stupid or just plan brain dead not to see this fraud. Again I say it that the end game for all this reckless spending is the federal reserve printing press and a tidal wave of inflation that only destroys the very people you say you want to protect -- the so called middle class. The plan is either to crash the American economy and bring our living standard down to average world status or inflate and destroy the dollar so as to pay down debt with worthless currency. Wake up people we can not tax our way out of this mess. We need leaders that have the balls to stand up and make the difficult decisions. Obama and Harry "the hack" Reid are a bad joke.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 16 weeks ago

"Morally stupid or just plain brain dead", not to mention extremely selfish and heartless, is to blame those who are struggling for their existence...their very lives...for the nation's economic problems while they themselves, obviously, are living in relative opulence; and then, they completely fail to mention the totally wasteful Pentagon spending on completely immoral and criminal wars. Mass murder of innocent civilians seem to be just fine with these blood-sucking ticks...and they don't even seem to realize that they are killing their "hosts". Poor people spend most of their money on goods and services needed to survive..boosting the economy. Rich people horde their wealth..most of which doesn't go into the economy. History has shown that when taxes on the richest people are high and social programs exist to help non-rich people the economy booms.

Time for payback....the payback being making those greedy parasites who have sucked our economy dry pay back some of the wealth that they have stolen from the rest of us. These parasites have gotten wealthy on relying on a business model that seeks to maximize their incomes on trickery and thievery on a grand scale...all the way from conniving merchants figuring out how to induce people to part from their hard earned money...psychologically luring them through various marketing tricks...advertisements, bait-and-switch, and other tactics, to large-scale Wall Street pyramid, and other schemes that have emptied people's life savings... retirement funds..etc. And in between there have been, for over 30 years now, a corporate scheme to reduce worker's wages and benefits such as health insurance. They have squeezed and squeezed hard and now it is time for us to squeeze back.

The Social Programs are not the problem! Pentagon spending, Wall Street crooks and bankers, Tax breaks for the wealthy and businesses shipping our jobs overseas ARE the problem. It is way past time that the wealthy and well-to-do, who have manipulated the system in their favor, pay back some of the loot that they have stolen from the rest of us.

The Republicans spent their entire time in the last four years being an obstacle to compromise. They had to have 100% their way or they would vote NO! I don't want to see Obama compromise anymore....I am glad he is attempting to stand up to them...but the idea that Obama will give the Republicans anything in the end really ticks me off.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

Global- Are you a Republican that feels cheated because Romney lost the election or are your personal taxes going up under the Democrat's or Obama's decision to raise the taxes on those who make more than $250.000 a year? It appears under the Clinton Administration the taxes on the wealthiest Americans did not hamper the economy from growing, so why do you feel it will damage the economy by taxing the richest Americans more at the end of the year on their earnings? It appears the cuts put forward by the Obama Administrartion and the Demorat's will help with the deficit without pushing the poorer Americans into complete poverty, how is that a bad idea? Unless you prescribe to the Ryan or Ayn Rand ideology of screw everyone that did not become wealthy and privatize everything so the wealthy and the corporations can accumulate even greater wealth without any governmental regulations, I simply do not understand the problem. Personally I would like to see the Republic purged of the greed and power grabbing we see the Wealthy Republicans trying to pull off at the expense of everyone else in our nation. When I state purge I mean purge them from our society on a permanent basis by whatever means necessary that we have at our disposal. We cannot allow another Wall St. capper by the Wealthy Banksters and people like the Koch Brothers who would destroy our environment and middle class Americans for their own desire to increase their own wealth at any cost. We need to teach these people they are not untouchable and if necessary they will feel the wrath of the American people if this behavior continues in our society. I would like to hear your honest answer on this subject.

Global's picture
Global 10 years 16 weeks ago

Two things about the Clinton administration, one he also cut spending, two he had good timing to be president during the computer, Internet, dot com boom as well as cell phones starting to come in. That brought on massive stimulation to the economy. Oh how we could use another technological breakthrough. You have to admit that entitlement spending is unsustainable and cannot be ignored. The benefits will have to be cut back somewhere down the road for those people going in to the programs 10 or so years from now In order to save our financial system which includes the value of yours and my retirement funds. Ken, you should also listen to a very smart financial guy that is right in your back yard (san diego) by the name of Jim Puplava. He does podcast every week and talks reality. His website is

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

Palindromedary - I thought you were the guy that critrized me for name calling and would not like the idea I had my finger on the button in a silo! You did not have to work in a silo to have to be cleared for a Top Secret Nato clearance in the Air Force, the rest is classified. This is one time I have to agree with you and your comments. Probably the only time it will happen! You must be retired to get this angry! Don't worry they are not going to change the benefits for anyone older than 55 yr.; they just want to screw the Americans that have paid into the system for the last 35 years! So they say, the Republicans that is. Calm down, you might stroke out and that would make the conservatives even happier, to get rid of one of us....

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

Global - Thanks for the reply. But, you did not answer my questions on the election and personal taxes and you have to admit I am trying to be as laid-back as a beach guy can be when making comments on this subject! If we lifted or changed the laws pertaining to paying into the Social Security and Medicare programs and everyone would continue to pay a percentage of their earnings throughout the year like most middle class wage earners do, instead of only paying on the first $110,000 earned the system would not be in trouble for future retirees. The dollar amount I stated may be wrong but I think you understand what the point is. Everyone should have to pay on all their earnings not just until they hit the benchmark at which the current law states. I am 60 years old and I am concerned about the future of these programs as others are in my generation (missed the baby boomers by a few years of age). But the wealthy seem to skate on all taxes because of the corruption in Washington in both parties and how they have continually passed bills to benefit the financial upper class. I have no problem with calling it redistribution of wealth. As far as listening to the financial guy, Paulava, I have a suspicion he is of the conservative Republican concept and it would be a waste of time because of my somewhat socialistic point of view. I regard politics as a game of war. And in the political arena of today my philosophy is" take no prisoners". I guess that comes from my military experience and the fact that the politicians seem to have the same point of view especially on the right. If it takes going over the so called cliff, it might just be a good idea if it makes the politicians fix our tax codes. Bombs Away!


SHFabian's picture
SHFabian 10 years 16 weeks ago

I'm very confused about something that President Obama said, and that has been repeated on MSNBC, etc. He said that under his plan, 98% of American families could expect to see an income tax reduction. How would this work for that huge portion of American workers who are currently paid too little to owe income taxes?

akunard's picture
akunard 10 years 16 weeks ago

Yep let us get rid of that "pesky debt-celiing" So we can beat Greece to total defalt

Good idea Thom.

PhilipHenderson's picture
PhilipHenderson 10 years 16 weeks ago

The fiscal cliff is a fake problem that was created by Congress in 2010. They did not want to solve the fiscal problems in front of them and decided to kick the problem to after the presidential election in 2012. Now the chickens have come home to roost. Republicans believe they have winning cards because they can filibuster any of the President's plans in the United States Senate and vote down any of his plans because they have a majority in the House of Representatives. Republcans do not want to govern, they want to play politics all day every day. The President and the Democrats have listened to the will of the people. Republicans do not care that more than 60% of the public supports the President and the Democrats. Republicans do not fear the electorate because they rely on money from Grover Norquist and the Koch Brothers to keep them in office. However, all the President has to do is all the "fiscal cliff deadline" to pass, then the power shifts back to him and the Democrats. If he allows the deadline to pass, then the public will see that the Republicans would rather have the country face financial disaster if the millionaires and billionaires do not get tax cuts. The President merely has to hold his position until the Republicans fold their cards. After January 1, 2013 the Republicans lose all their bargaining position. I am praying that the Democrats and the President will stand their ground. This problem can be easily resolved without harming the poor and the middle class. The rich have benefitted the last 12 years amassing huge wealth taken from the middle class . . . it is time for them to pay for their unearned gains.

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 10 years 16 weeks ago

i do so love the "anit tax" meme!lol all the criers crying. fact is folks we can tax our way out of the mess but it needs to be a commitment by those who know they work the game. it really just boils down to not so much raising rates but moreover "taxing" every dollar taxed "equally". Like i've ranted on before there is no reason whatsoever that 100k of "taxable" income that is "pool side" should only have to pay $2,800 while Joe the truck driver and his waitress wife working 100 hours a week, trying to get the kids through college, which by the way have seen 300% tuition increases in just about a decade, having 84k of taxable income should have to pay $13,000 in taxes!!! See? it's people like us working stiffs that are sick of the gamed system and all said and done? the reality of it is there are more of us. It's time for a real tea party! Tax the crap out of the gamers for a while!!! Oh by the way i don't recall all the rich people i've know complaing much 20 years ago. you know? before the bush tax holiday....Death to the anti tax meme and lets get together and fix this idiodic country. don't forget Mr. Buffet...

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 10 years 16 weeks ago

another note on it all. in the news last night was information regarding Costco and how Costco, to avoid a potential higher tax rate for it's holders is going to pay out a few billion in dividends. Makes for intersting thought when you consider say someone who bought stock eons ago just sat and let it earn. no sweat. no toiling. no nothing...

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

To get an exact picture of how the tax burden has been shared go this N.Y. Times web site and enjoy an interactive graph(s) of how the taxes have shifted from 1980 under Reagan to 2010 under Bush. As well as all the tax schedules during Clinton and so on. It allows you to scan back and forth while changing the tax schedules for each year. It will give you an honest picture of what has happened. No guessing on how the Corporations have been paying less while the middle class has paid more taxes. It covers all income levels on income and earnings. It is a great little tool to play with and there are no partisian assumptions or claims.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 16 weeks ago

Ok, President Obama: now is the time to prove that you have a set of cojones. You can prove it by:

1. NOT preemtively giving up everything that the people WHO ELECTED YOU want and need.

2. NOT saying things like, "I just want to reach across the aisle and be friends with people who hate me, even if it means giving up on the middle class and the poor." You need to understand something: they hate you because you're black. That is NOT going to change, so forget about being friends with them.

3. SAYING to the republicans, "My way, or the highway. You do this, or I go in front of the American people and tell them you, and you, and you, (naming the traitors and sellouts in the republican and democrate parties) want to turn American into a third world country."

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

SHFabian - I am only guessing, but I assume he is referring to the Americans that pay tax on their income versus those who make so little they are considered to be in the poverty level of income and therefore pay no tax on their meager earnings they make to support themselves and their families. Those that were called, "the working poor" when I was younger or those who Romney would not have represented in our society because they did not make enough money to be considered real Americans by his group of Billionaires and multi-millionaires. You know those people who use to send their kids off to war while the wealthier citizens found a way to buy themselves a way out of having to go to war like the rest of us.

Willie W's picture
Willie W 10 years 16 weeks ago

What's up with the rich? I didn't realize how fragile these job creators were. They need protection from us common folk who for some strange reason think that they should help clean up the mess they made. It took powerful rich people to ruin this country. It will take their ill gotten gains to fix it. I believe the money is there, and it's enough to fix everything. So get out of the way and let the President do his job.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 10 years 16 weeks ago

This civil war is different. We're gonna break the Republican's saber over our knee.

bobbler's picture
bobbler 10 years 16 weeks ago

Why dies everyone engage right wingers like global. Their arguments are disingenuous at face value (nothing to discuss)..

For example his first sententry this thread:

"""that this president is out to destroy the system when his proposal is strip families and small businesses making over $250,000 per year of More of their hard earned income through taxes,"""

Surely everyone sees the obvious disconnect (with reality) here.

On a positive note, I'm glad Obama is moving foreward with fixing the economy, and hopefully ignoring the fiscal cliff bullshit.. Didn't people ever learn. Where were the WND? These grand accusations are to try and ffighten voters into buying their BS.

HalFonts's picture
HalFonts 10 years 16 weeks ago

I'm feeling exactly like I did immediately before the election: "Nothing will surprise me." Could be a total rout one way, or the opposite. I trust none of them, but very tentatively hope for the best, even while knowing that little to nothing at the highest (lowest) levels of the professional Radical-Right has changed -- and the cancer of big-money has infected the highest levels of both parties. We the people are still hanging on by the skin-of-our-teeth.

leighmf's picture
leighmf 10 years 16 weeks ago

I don't trust anyone in government.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 16 weeks ago

Ken Ware..actually, I have always agreed with about 99% of what you have said in just about every one of your posts and every time you got upset with me and called me paranoid... I got a big chuckle out of it...eventually. There were times when you berated me for various things and then you turned right around and said a bunch of things that I totally agreed with and thought I had, myself, said the same things before...leaving me wondering why you were getting so upset. I don't think that my post addressed anyone specifically (even though I did quote the phrase used by the previous post) and kept it a general reference to the whole group of people who tend to have that general mindset. I guess you aren't in agreement with me on the 911 conspiracy..but that is ok. But if you reread some of your posts with the idea in mind that others might think of your posts as having elements of conspiracy as well. Just as if you watch or listen to Thom Hartman's shows and blogs some other people could very well believe that he is a believer in conspiracies. And there will always be the hearer of those "conspiracies" who will tack on the word "crazy" to the "conspiracy" word because it doesn't readily fit into the hearer's paradigm.

historywriter's picture
historywriter 10 years 16 weeks ago

leighmif: That's because all those repub candidates running to grab jobs in government keep telling us the government is corrupt, inept, wasteful, and a few other things.

We need to put people in office who are honest and don't tell lies and fabricate things and flop whenever a new poll comes out.

Honest politicians exist. But you have to LISTEN to them and test their facts and opinions against truth and common sense. Might have to work at it a little.

Do the work!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 16 weeks ago

Subvert the Dominant Paradigm--Question Authority!

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 10 years 16 weeks ago

What do I think? I think the President should negotiate removal of the CAP and turn Social Security into a living retirement amount much like the living wage concept. After all, why shouldn't a worker who has spent a lifetime making the so called job creator embarrassingly wealthy not deserve at least this minimal dignity in return. This way those who most benefited from working class toil are forced to do what is only fair and moral. I would suspect anyone making more in eight hours than his co- worker makes in an entire year can more than afford this extra tax.

Remember under the Obama plan everyone in taxable territory under $250,000 gets a tax break and on incomes above $250,000, the temporary extension on a temporary tax cut will end. This is not a tax increase, it's simply going back to the old rate as planned.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 16 weeks ago

News Flash! (Just heard it on the it's really not new news but just a reinforcement of the propaganda machine trying to frighten people to make quick, irrational decisions):
Healthcare Insurers (this time it is Anthem Blue Cross..are in a mad rush to raise their premiums before Obamacare kicks in.

I'm all for the idea of preventing Healthcare Insurers from using pre-existing conditions to avoid paying the costs of an insured's medical expenses. But there is really nothing to keep these healthScare insurers from jacking up their already exorbitant rates. And they are (and have been) doing it already. They are now using the scare tactics that if you don't have health insurance will be forced (by the government) to pay huge premiums later.

If Obama and the Democrats break the Republicans over this "fiscal cliff" smoke-and-mirrors then maybe we have a good chance of getting a single payer system.

MontanaMuleGal's picture
MontanaMuleGal 10 years 16 weeks ago

I am in favor of "Medicare for All."

It's a justifiable reason to raise my taxes...slightly.

MontanaMuleGal's picture
MontanaMuleGal 10 years 16 weeks ago

As for "taxes," it's payroll taxes that are strangling my small business.

I am in favor of eliminating the payroll tax ceiling.

The wealthy and their employers can just pony up their deduction and payroll tax debt to the system which helps to float the economy.

ArizonaMike's picture
ArizonaMike 10 years 16 weeks ago

Obama needs to learn how to negotiate. Start off with raising social security tax on ALL income. Negotiate it down to a donut hole for all income between 100k and 250k will not be taxed at all, no federal no FICA.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 16 weeks ago

Palindromedary - Your right I have been somewhat antagonistic towards you at times and my daughter says it is my nature to be challenging towards others, especially when it concerns politics! She has even asked me not to discuss politics with my son in law when she is there because I do at times enjoy being the antagonist when I discuss or debate a point of view different from mine. I actually enjoy sparring with people like yourself and others when it comes to subjects where there are multiple sides to the subject. Don't take it personally, I have a feeling you may have the same nature and like the last word as well! Ha! Again don't take it personally, if I seem to be coming on strong, it is part of my nature. As far as the conspiracies not fitting into my paradigm of reasoning, it is more to the point that after reading and checking out the sources you have quoted it seems illogical to perceive matters in that particular mind set. And I weigh out the costs to the benefits of specific conspiracies and whether it meets any logical pattern or paradigm. I respect your point of view, but I will continue to use the word crazy or illogical when I believe it applies. Especially when the theory does not support any logical reason for doing a specific act. As I have stated before I view politics as a game of war with only one winner in the aftermath. Compromise is a sign of weakness. Being a person with a socialistic mind set does not mean one is not a warrior in mind and spirit. I have no problem with other people using the same terminology towards me when it comes to my point of view or theory of why something is the way it is or why it happened...

Global's picture
Global 10 years 16 weeks ago

Put down the crack pipe bobbler, what are you talking about? Tell me how Obama is fixing the economy. He is an economic illiterate that manipulates you fools with his Sal Alinski tactics. Turn off MSLSD and read more.

Global's picture
Global 10 years 16 weeks ago

No confusion, Obama is lying again. There is no income tax reduction, you just get to continue to pay the same rate that you were paying for the last 12 years. But hold on to your wallet because taxing the rich will be redefined next year. When the dictator says give me the power to eliminate the debt ceiling I think he will be looking for more blood.

Global's picture
Global 10 years 16 weeks ago

Ken, Romney was not my first choice I was more a Ron Paul supporter but unlike you I refuse to see this country sink into the dark hole of socialism and cultural degradation. To me Obama represents that faction. Socialism has never worked Anywhere. As far as taxes paid by me it does not matter because revenue is not the problem, spending money we don't have and can not confiscate from others is killing us. Inflation and weak ass temporary politicians are your enemy. If we get back to 7 percent inflation rate because of these spending policies your dollar today will be worth 50 cents in 10 years. Are you prepared for that in your retirement? That is what I call throwing granny over the cliff.

flyguy8650's picture
flyguy8650 10 years 16 weeks ago

Wow....good exchange of ideas here. This fiscal cliff is pure Political BS. Extremes on both sides are doing what they typically do....scare tactics.

Frankly, I fear for my grand children and apologize to their parents for leaving them such crap. We elected these fruit cakes in DC and now we are stuck until the younger generations can bring back America.

Obama, Reid, Pelosi and Bohner. GOD HELP US!!!!

flyguy8650's picture
flyguy8650 10 years 16 weeks ago

Great post

druneric's picture
druneric 10 years 15 weeks ago

Why do people like "Global" read or watch Hartmann? I never watch Fox. I've always been curious about that. Anyway, I just wanted to thank Thom for a good condensed version of Obama's plan. Not that I think Boehner will go for it. And personally, I'd like to be the one to push his sorry ass off the cliff. I've never been happy about any deal Obama has tried to make with those idiots. If he caves on one more issue I'll lose my mind. Actually, I think the thing I admire most about Obama is his ability to turn the other cheek. He is the President of the United States and in his own country is surrounded by men and women every day who have absolutely no respect for his position even though he's probably got at least 50 I.Q. points on any one of them.

AuntySocial's picture
AuntySocial 10 years 15 weeks ago

Good start, but there's more. Corporations have too many loopholes to avoid paying their fair share in taxes, we pay oil companies subsidies instead of them paying taxes, defense contractors are paid much more than it would cost if the military did it themselves, Since Israel wants to take over the Palestinian land by builiding settlements on it, cut Israel off. Don't give them a penny. They will come around, but look at the money that will be saved. And for all of those whining about those making over $250,000 a year, would you like some cheese with your whine?

Global's picture
Global 10 years 15 weeks ago

Druneric, I listen to Hartman because I want to understand the mind set of the people that want to destroy my country and freedoms. You should try to get out of your liberal echo chamber every once in awhile, you may learn something. As far as Obama being so smart how do you know. All of his college records have been sealed. In the words of Harry the hack Reid -- the word is out that he was a hard core drug user who barley made passing grades. I guess you also are aware that Hartman is a confirmed socialist and that he would like to see you living in a cubicle and riding your bike to work. Of course he is all for the guiding light of the UN and the principles in Agenda 21. It is not a joke to me.

michaelbjones1962 10 years 15 weeks ago

Nor should you! Amy Goodman for President!

megalomaniac's picture
megalomaniac 10 years 15 weeks ago

What happens when your car motor is not working right? You turn it “off” fix it then turn it on and see how it runs. O.K.

Please indulge me while putting forth an analogy to a broken system.

For my view, looking down the fiscal cliff is normal everyday stuff. It’s called paycheck to paycheck, and the big guys know it. Sheesh half America can be scared by this notion that you’re lucky to have a job and now your politically correct to like vote for who the boss wants is the way to go. This is the type of political culture that is nothing more than tyranny, with a lot of fuzzy math to make it feel better.

For whatever the reason that is mine to vote for Obama regardless if he is a hardcore drug person or a hidden Muslim with blackbody arterial antenna triggered by secret pseudo Wahhabi Primate Messages from the Bin Laden family to control America, We all know Obama is more connected to the low end of the cultural spectrum.

Perhaps one should get a laugh out of that, but the haunting part is that it might be true. So, here on one hand one choice for president is this guy Obama who might be able to be controlled by paranormal Muslim’ s smoking rope in Dubai, or the elevator white Mormon with piles of secret money in the Canary Islands or Swiss bank accounts creating jobs for the job creators. They have to work too you know. Destroying the middle is not easy. The work they do is to watch the Poor and Middle America making sure the police baton or pepper spray industry has right profit margin. It’s not easy to shred the Constitution and stuff into a pepper spray bottle. Bloomberg is still in the experimental stages in New York City.

Seriously, all the president has to do is turn off the money machine. Yes turn off stock market until the decision is reached to get the job done. Ladies and Gentlemen of America if you would like to see the upper crust banksters fly off their chairs and pound the want ads to hire for jobs that are trainable and immediate for things we never thought of, likely would turn into something seemly everyone in America has a gold parachute not just the CEO’s. LOL.

Let's call this the Twinkie window of opportunity to identify management and a system that is so bad these upper management people should be fined taxed. Let them stand in the unemployment line too. Getting a bonus to screw up America is insane. That judge that determined the bonus plan is o.k. should be taken out of office immediately.

If there was any time the mainstream media is bullshiting us it is now.

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 10 years 15 weeks ago

What the???? You sound like a tyipical 1950's parinoid white American. Correct me if I am wrong - and I know you will - but your idea of socialism seems passé and stems from Stolinism and not actual socialism. And this so called destruction of "your" country...It started long before Obama was first elected. The real culprits are not limited to just those in Washington; more so it is a group of white elitest families, with such names as J.P. Morgan, Rothschild, Rockafeller, etc. Obama - like every president - is playing the hand he was delt. But believe when I say I am not a Obama supporter since he too has crossed several moral and ethical lines in my opinion. I am a registered republican, however I DO NOT support the party since the party is filed with greedy selfish bigoted business man; which has proven more and more to not be what is best for America. That being said I fully support the efforts to raise taxes on the upper 2%, cut spending on defence and like Ron Paul proposed; close certain military bases and reform our foreign policy to a more diplomatic one rather then a militaristic one; which cost us more than we can truely afford finachlely and jepordizes the wellbeing and wellfare of ALL Americans. Further more I would like to elaborate that Socialism, Communism, Anarchism are all philosophies that have just as many positive points as Democracy and Capitalism. However I do not accept Soviet Socialism to be an absolute example of what socialism is; just as I do not accept American Capitalism to be a pure model of true justice and freedom. American Capitalism has led us into every bloody war - foreign and domestic - in the history of our country. As well American Capitalism is the root cause to our two tiered Justice System. As Howard Zinn once pointed out; "We can use socialism in a Democratic Elected Government to equalize our resources and help people". I like this idea in that it benefits ALL and not just a few. I am not opposed or fearful to leveling the playing field.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

I've been trying for twelve hours now, intermittantly and repeatedly, to participate in this discussion only to have my efforts thrwarted again and again ad nauseam. Try try AGAIN! Shall we make it through the barrier this time?

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

If at first you don't succeed, try again and AGAIN and... !!!!!!!!!!

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

All right, the teensie-wiensie ones got through. So here goes:

For once our president has shown some gonads here. He's letting those Bush tax cuts expire, reversing much of an economic status quo that has favored the idle rich way too long, at everyone else's expense. I for one am tired of it, and welcome this as Change We Can Believe in... Finally!! So I ask you, Mister Global: What is it about the idea of investing in roads & bridges, or educating our kids and healing the sick, that has your undies in a knot?

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

Do you happen to be a member ot the Billionaire Lucky Sperm Club? If not, then let me remind you that you are nothing to these plutocrats but an itsy-bitsy, no-count peon. Your loyalty to them is sadly misdirected. You characterize the president as an "economic illiterate", a "socialist" or whatever, but what would you call Baby Bush? Isn't he the one who created this deficit fiasco in the first place? What's more, Bush Junior was all about socialism & entitlements, but only for the rich; not you or me. Ditto Mitt Romney. And Ron Paul?! Oh please. Throwing Granny under the bus is precisely what these country club elitists intend to do. They do it by shredding the paltry remains of a raggedy-ass safety net, one that has already taken quite a beating from corporate lobbyists, corrupt politicians and the special interests they serve.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

Folks like you who think "socialism" is such a dirty word oughta try educating yourselves instead of spouting off like fools, because you don't even know what socialism is. Ever hear of "The Commons", similarly referred to as "for the common good" or "public domain"? These are the hallmarks of a civilized society. At any rate, you sound like someone who watches too much FOX. Try watching Democracy Now, or Brave New Films, instead. You just might learn a thing or two.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

The truth is, Mister Global, socialism isn't the enemy of freedom or democracy; it's monopoly crony capitalism and it's all about Plutocracy. (Do you know what Plutocracy is? Try looking it up.) The trouble isn't spending, or that bogus "Fiscal Cliff" the Republicans invented to scare us peasants into submission; it's the transfer of wealth, from the bottom 98% to the top 2%. (HELLO.) The system ain't broke; it's FIXED, and it's the 98% who are the losers here. That means us. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, pal. And while you're at it, try wiping that massive chip off your shoulder. - Doro Reeves -

Global's picture
Global 10 years 15 weeks ago

No fraud, you and i agree on the Ron Paul defense policy and i am well aware of the past elitest control of our industries and financial institutions and the creation of the Federal Reserve. my view of socialism and people that think we need to nationalize banks, car companies and oil companies etc.. is that it would only work in a fictional Utopia. People are not perfect beings. For socialism to work, very little greed and jealosy can exist and people must have a general feeling of charity and a willingness to work their hardest for the good of everyone. These are obviously not common traits. capitalism utilizes the willpower of individuals, especially entrepreneurs, to foment economic activity. Capitalism is based on the assumption that individuals operate based on self interest; however, by doing so they not only help themselves, but also propel others towards economic success. Opportunities are created for everyone.

So why has France passed a socialistic labor law which makes it very hard to lay off workers? Why does Canada have government sponsered, free health care? Why do some American workers pay over a third of their income in taxes? Why do so many nations tax and then dole out excessive welfare checks?

It seems as though we are doing the very thing that history has proven doesn't work: forcing socialism. How can France expect its workers to work hard if it's nearly impossible to fire them? How can we expect welfare recipients to find jobs if it's easy for them to sit at home and get welfare? I know that there is a real need for welfare among some people, but there are others who smoke and drink and do nothing to better themselves. Socialism is forced on the rest of Americans when they are taxed and their money goes to such people. If this continues, Americans will become more and more lazy and our nation will degenerate to a quasi-socialist, nonproductive society. That is the destruction of our culture that most concerns me. It has been moving more and more in this direction for the last 40 years and it appears Obama is all in for accelerating the process and the tipping point was demonstrated by the last election.

Global's picture
Global 10 years 15 weeks ago

Alice, you sound like you are ten feet tall. Relax, as I said before, taxing the so called rich is an emotional issue for the Libs and means Butkus to the massive spending problem we have with these incompitant leaders in Washington. And who cares what Fox News or MSLSD and the socialist propaganda at Democracy Now has to say. I think and interpret events as I see them. The litmus test for any legislation or policy should always be how does it affect the freedoms of me and my family. That core understanding will release your frustrations.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 15 weeks ago

Mister G, if there's one thing we actually can agree on, it's the incompetence in Washington. However that's were it ends. We each are entitled to our own point of view regardless of how reality-based (or not). As to the merits of dog-eat-dog, carniverous capitalism you conservatives think is so great, hey, have at it guys! I hope it brings you all the smug self-gratification your little hearts desire! But if it actually worked for everyone in society, rather than for just a few, we wouldn't be in this mess now, would we? Have a lovely night, stud muffin... - Aliceinwonderland

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 10 years 15 weeks ago

In Social Democracy...Capitalism still excist; there is just better regulation, equal distribution of wealth, and a more focused public policy.
And in my opinion most people are not greedy or jealous to the degree that you seem to imply; at least that is what I gather from your tone in many of your posts. In fact you come off as a greedy jealous person. Why is that? Are you not confident and comfortable in your own skin? In my experience I have found neoconservatives to be very greedy angry people. Why is that? Most of the hate speach and defaming of peoples charecter seems to come from the extreme right. Why is that?

Global I have to ask you what your issue is with having a single payer healthcare system that would allow all Americans to receive medical attention without having to go bankrupt? And if some uber rich person wants to buy private health Ins he can. Much like they do in other developed and organized countries. Austrailia is a excellent example; I know this because I have family that have lived there for the past 43 years (they are dual citizens). They (Austrailians) also receive Government mandated paid holidays (vacation) with the minimum number of days being 22 days per year, some jobs offer more. How dredfull!
Anyway back to the issue of Single Payer Health Care...
I run a business and work 40-50 hours a week; I make relatively good money but certainly not a level of income that would afford me and my wife healthcare Ins. And my wife works for a company that does not offer their employees health ins. And even with two incomes we still cannot afford health Ins. For the most part we do not live above our means, but if one of us were to become ill to the point of needing to see the Doctor it is practically out the question due to the expense.
I personally would rather my tax dollars go towards a single payer healthcare Ins. then towards say supporting Isreal, a hyped defence budget, corrupt military contracts, overseas nation building, and illegal and unnecessary wars.
It saddens me that so many Americans would rather spend trillions of dollars a year on killing and the formentioned then reduce military and defence spending and apply it towards public healthcare, (as well as improving our education system, and establishing a better clean/alternative Energy Policy; mainly wind, wave, solar, and natural gas).

As far as Welfare goes...I agree I'd like to see people become more finachlely independent. However that being said I am ALL for welfare in a time of economic chaos. When there are millions and millions of people who have lost their jobs to overseas cheap labor and millions more that have been booted from their homes do to an artificially inflated housing bubble, the deregulation of banks and the scum-bags that profited by stealing from Main St. America. As well I am all for enforcing wellfare regulation in order to weed out those who abuse the system. I'd rather my tax dollars go towards programs that help those who are in finachle dire straights then towards our much failed War on Drugs and silly Zero Tollerance Drug Laws; both of which waste billions of dollars and have caused more harm than good.
I have a sister who went to prison for 10 years mandatory no parol when she was 26 for an ounce of weed and 2 grams of coke. She had no priors, and at the time held an excellent job as a radiologist asst. making over 50k per year plus bonuses. Now she works 40hrs a week as a casher for 8.50/ hr., babysits on her days off and has to rely on food stamps and family to help make ends meet. Was it stupid of her to jeapordize her wellbeing???Absolutly! Do I feel she is a dangerous person???No! However since society is so "unforgiving" for the mistakes we ALL can and do make, she, and many others like her, will continue to be a burden to us all; at least until we stop being so God dam self righteous and hell bent on condeming people for being people and not allowing for a second, third or fourth chance. I'm not saying you or anyone else should feel sorry for her, or anyone else who chooses to break the law, however I do feel sorry for her because of how she has been condemmed by a hysterical and ignorant majority of society. Life is already difficult without all the man made bullsh*t.
We - you, me, our brothers and sisters - need to change our way of thinking. History does not prove socialism to be a failure...However Stolinism does. True socialism has been given very little opportunity do to hyped rehtoric and ignorance. It is my opinion that Stolinism would be avoided under a Social Democracy as would Capitalism run amuck.

One other note about socialism...You do realize military life works under a socialistic democratic philosophy...No?

In one of you response to anothers post you commented that the news program Democracy Now is Social Propaganda. What?!?!? Democracy Now is nothing more than true responsable reporting. When the Occupy Wall St movement begain in the early days of Sept. 2011 Independent news sources, like Democracy Now and Thom Hartmann, were the ones giving true coverage and informing the public. It wasn't untill days later that mainstream commercial news sources begain reporting on the events, and even than they were grossly slanted, condeming and misrepresenting. Same goes for the Pvt. Bradley Manning case and Julian Assange. Independent news sources like Democracy Now are the only ones reporting facts rather than acting like judge and jury. In fact you rarely here the mainstream media report on Julian Assange and yet our Government has a hard-on for him with wanting to arrest and extrodit him here to the U.S. in order to charge him for crimes of espionage.
Again in my opinion, based on obbservation and experience...If more people watched and listened to Independent News Media - like Democracy Now, Thom Hartmann, RT, etc. maybe we would see less rush towards war. It is no mystery that Fox, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc, etc. propell our Governments War Machine Agenda.

[Please forgive any gross mispellings, run ons and digressions...It is 4:30 am and I'm running on 3 hrs sleep]

Global's picture
Global 10 years 15 weeks ago

Couple things about government run healthcare, Australia has 22 million people, Canada has 35 million people, USA has 313 million people. The delivery system here will be overwhelmed. Never be enough doctors or nurses. Also as you may know Medicare pays maybe 60 cents on the dollar to healthcare providers so the cost shifts to private insurance policies to pick up the slack. You know the baby boomers are headed for a train wreck in the medicare system. you will see the so called "death panels" in order to control costs. we in the baby boom generation have a target on our chest. Now through Obama care they are stripping more payments out of Medicare. Doctors will stop taking Medicare patients. Or will they be forced to. Maybe more doctors will start accepting only patients they choose, as you indicated (those willing to pay for better service) -- and then I think you see the snowball of the free market being forced to be a bit disfunctional. Of course the slippery slope of government intervention could dictate all kinds of regulations and penalties to patch up the system and preserve crappy healthcare for all. Can you imagine the beuracracy that will be created for this monstrosity. And as I have said before government programs and spending are forever, politicians and tax rates are temporary. I think in the closed door discussions of these masterminds, population control in order to contain healthcare cost is centerpiece. That is why you see the push for free contraceptives, abortion on demand, and soon a planned parenthood facility in every city. watch out for that flu vaccine.

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