Wednesday - July 22 2009
By Louise
Hour One: "Euthanasia...a slippery slope or a merciful end to suffering?" Thom tackles the issue head on with Dr. Patricia O'Halloran Physicians for Compassionate Care www.pccef.org & Father Tad www.ncbcenter.org
Hour Two: Thom is asking - Why? - Instead of you wanting the force of Government to ensure I have a doctor - you want the force of Government (which uses guns) to force me to give my money to a company which stands between me and my doctor? Thom is challenging Marc Goldwein www.newamerica.net
Hour Three: "Everything You Know is Wrong...is the end of the world closer than we know?!" Thom talks with Gilbert Eriksen about the scientific explanations of biblical prophecies www.milleniumprophecy.com
Guest: Larry Scott VAWatchdog.org
Comments
#2
What a relief that John Thune's gun amendment went down. Talk about nuts. Why not just issue a gun with every birth?
#3
I used to say "Conservatives believe in your right to life. They just don't believe you have a right to live." Now I have to add an addendum to it: "Conservatives believe in your right to life. They just don't believe you have a right to live or die."
#4
Ivcdaniels,
I've also had to totally change my understandings of conservatives.
There were aspects of conservatives that I respected and even adopted into my own personal view -- although with more nuance.
For example,in regard to an individual's right from government intrusion, I'm very "old school" conservative.
But, since 911, my conservative friends call me anti-American for still believing what they used to preach!
#5
>> Quark July 22nd, 2009, 10:58 am
>> What a relief that John Thune’s gun amendment went down. Talk about nuts. Why not just issue a gun with every birth?
How the hell did this even come to a vote?
No conservative agenda-item should ever even come to a discussion until they stop voting as a bloc against Obama.
#6
B Roll,
RE: "When I did most of my reading, I could find no apparent proof of a link between monotheistic Egypt and a Semitic group which left Egypt (the Hebrews.)"
Technically, I should not have said "monotheistic" Egypt, but should have referred to Akenaton's reign in which one god was worshipped. (btw, you probably know that Akenaton's wife was Nefertiti and his son was Tutankamun. Interesting, isn't it?
One of my current areas of interest is in the Antikythera mechanism, an ancient artifact found by sponge divers off the coast of Antikythera about 100 years ago.
From what I have read, researchers still aren't exactly sure of its purpose; it could be the world's first computer, built to tell time,etc. Anyway, I think it's fascinating and would love to know more.
There are lots of websites devoted to it. Here's a nice one:
#7
L Grace,
RE: "How the hell did this ever come to a vote?"
I could not agree MORE!!! I get even more upset with the so-called Dems.
#8
Oh well, now for something completely different!
#9
I don't understand how Gilbert managed to bungle his presentation on the show so completely. Was he not informed he would only have about ten minutes to engage and capture the audience? He seemed to have no strategy at all about how to convey the essence of his research; instead he just kept droning on about one unknown scientist after another -- useless background material really. Too bad he didn't have a plan for his presentation; he lost a great chance to connect with Thom's listeners. Maybe he could be given a second chance? Because his material is definitely intriguing. Anyway I respect Thom for occasionally bringing "fringe" researchers on the show.
#10
Quark,
Here's a website I think you'll enjoy. It has forums (they call them discourses, so yo can up your hoity-toity quotient) on Ancient Egypt, Ancient History, Science and Technology, Culture and Anthropology and more. The regulars are a combination of autodidacts (i.e., self-taught) and students and professionals in these or related fields. There also are some interesting papers.
These people are serious. How serious. Well, some of the people who participate in the Ancient Egypt "discourse" can actually read hieroglyphics.
#11
oooooooops.... seems I forgot to include the link to the site
#12
Does anyone take this Gilbert Eriksen seriously? I just took a quick look about him on a google search, and I am saying to myself, "Is he serious?" Am I missing something here?
#13
Loretta,
Your post was supportive of mine, even if you hadn't read it!
I too have had dental issues for years, but this coming at the same time they are pressuring me to have a useless MRI, was too ironic
I will get it done somehow, try to find a discount... borrow the money , hopefully not from a bank
#14
>> Quark July 22nd, 2009, 11:36 am
>> I could not agree MORE!!! I get even more upset with the so-called Dems.
I'm old enough to remember the pre-Reagan days when the house and senate Dem leadership knew how to play hardball.
Wilbur Mills of the Ways and Means committee, for example. If you screwed with the Dems, he never let our bill see the light of day!
Now, I think you can play _too_ mean in politics and I don't condone that.
But it is ABSURD that the GOP got all kinds of THEIR self-serving crap into the Stimulus Bill and then VOTED AGAINST IT. That's absurd.
#15
B Roll,
Thanks so much for the link. I can see I will be spending a little time there!
#16
Quark,
Your welcome. I figured you'd like it. I just came here to post more about Akhenaten and monotheism. I'll post that below.
#17
Quark,
As I wrote in my previous post, I believe that Akhenaten’s religious beliefs and their link to monotheism may have been misunderstood. My understanding is that he didn’t deny the existence of other gods, but he raised the status of Aten in the Egyptian pantheon of gods. If he were a monotheist, he would have had to say Aten was the only god. Monotheists say that our god is the true god and your god or gods are false gods. (Atheists tell monotheists, we just don’t believe in one more god than you do.)
Akhenaten has been credited with being the first monotheist. I believe that the Tim, the caller who raised the issue, said that monotheism came from Ancient Egypt. My point is that even if Akhenaten was the first monotheist, it seems unlikely that it spread from him because memory of Akhenaten began being erased after his death and Egypt was back to its traditional beliefs in a matter of several years. Of course, it’s possible that his beliefs remained as a cult that spread later or that the beliefs of Akhenaten were known throughout the region because of the importance of Egypt in the ancient world. It would be interesting to know if any contemporaneous records of Akhenaten’s religious beliefs by any neighboring cultures.
There’s also a question of the timeline. The Jewish people supposedly have their origins in Abraham who was given information by God that led the founding of Judaism and the Jewish people. I don’t know of any archaeological evidence that proves Abraham was a real person and like several biblical characters, he lived an unusually long time But scholars who try to figure when he might have lived place him several hundred years before Akhenaten. If true, that would make Jewish monotheism older than Akhenaten’s time.
It’s also my understanding that there is no archaeological evidence for the Exodus or the fact that the ancient Hebrews were ever held captive in Egypt. It’s hard to believe that hundreds of thousands of people could wander in the desert for decades and leave no trace. Ancient Egypt was a very organized society and they kept meticulous records. It’s my understanding that there are no Egyptian records of the enslavement of the Jews for around two centuries. So I guess the validity of the story has to be questioned.
This is just speculation, but I find it plausible that people who invent many gods someone will come along and invent just one god. It’s also possible that among people who believe in many gods, one god may be given prominence over time and over time belief in the other gods diminishes to the point where hardly anyone worships them any more; a sort of religious evolution in which only the fittest god remains standing.
It ain’t necessarily so… it ain’t necessarily so. The things that your liable to read in the bible… it ain’t necessarily so.
P.S.: The Ancient Egyptians had this habit of one pharaoh trying to remove a preceding pharoah’s name from memory. But they never seem to have totally succeeded. Akhenaten suffered that fate during the brief rule of his son Tutankhamun and he wasn’t rediscovered for a few thousand years. Hatshepsut, the most famous female pharaoh was also given the eraser treatment after her death by her brother who believed that she had usurped his throne when he was young.
#18
B Roll,
Take a look at this fascinating video. (There are longer videos available online, but this may whet your appetite.) There is increasing evidence for historic confirmation of at least some "Bible stories":
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=The+Exodus+Decoded&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#
While I am not a Bible "literalist," I do believe that it represents oral histories and morality tales handed down over generations. I believe that there is truth in it.
#19
B Roll,
I went back and checked the URL I just sent you. It didn't go to the right video for some reason. Try this one:
#20
Quark,
I meant to write this earlier, but was sidetracked by life. I’m posting this without serious proof reading.)
Interesting! But I became skeptical about 10 seconds into the video. That was when the guy in the baseball cap turned around and I realized he was The Naked Archaeologist. I looked him up and found his name is Simcha Jacobovici.
I have seen a few things he’s done for the History Channel. Watching them, I had a gut feeling that he isn’t credible. I know one thing that bothered me was that it seemed to me that he states a questionable fact or theory, then assumes it to be true, and then uses that “fact” as the basis for a new theory.
I want to get this posted for you, although by now you might not see it until the morning, so I’m not going to watch the video a second time now.
Example: There was no Egyptian record of Hebrew slaves or a massive exodus of foreigners at the time the Jews were supposed to be there. So he suggests maybe they’re looking at the wrong time and he finds a guy who says that if you look a few hundred years later, you find a record of the Hyskos. The Hyskos invaded and colonized part of Egypt for a few hundred years, then began gaining power, ruled for a few centuries and then were expelled.
I hope you remember what Jacobovici did. He took one guy’s theory that the date was wrong and without any other verification, he said something along the lines of we have a new date for the Exodus. Then he turns the Hebrew slaves into the Hyskos rulers.
I imagine that it’s not unusual for one group to adopt and adapt the stories of another culture, but when they do that, I’d think they would take the most glorious parts. But in this case, we’re told that the Jews took a period in Hyskos history in which the Hyskos conquered and ruled one of the most glorious civilizations in history and made it into a story of Jewish slavery and oppression and put it into their holiest book. They completely leave out the part about conquering and ruling Egypt.
Then there’s the mention of the Hyskos multicolored robes, which resonates with the story of Joseph who went to Egypt and returned with a robe of many colors. Maybe I’m looking at this from the wrong perspective, but if the story of story of the Jews in Egypt is really the story of the Hyskos in Egypt, a colored robe wouldn’t be a big enough deal to write about because it would have been very common.
But those are just logical quibbles. The greatest reason I have to doubt Jacobovici’s credibility is what I found on Wikipedia when I looked him up. Look at the page on him there after you finish this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcha_Jacobovici
What you’ll find is that he isn’t an archaeologist or even a historian. He has a B.A. in Philosophy and an M.A. in International Relations, but he basically works as a film maker.
When you look at the Wikipedia page on him, you see that it’s mostly taken up with criticisms of his work and how he does it. He’s been accused of twisting facts and research. In one case he and his partners are accused of misrepresenting the proceedings of a conference at Princeton University to the media. The way they misrepresented the conference made it look like the thesis is one films is more likely to be true than was actually the case. Around a dozen participants at the conference signed a letter criticizing him for this. One of the signers of this letter cited a leaked memo that indicated that Jacobovici and his partners actually had a plan to try to manipulate the conference to appear to support the ideas presented in their film.
When I look at the Wikipedia page I see that his films present controversial theory after controversial theory. Theories that, if true, would revolutionize our understanding of ancient history. Most professionals in the field work to find new things and expand our knowledge, but very few revolutionize the field. Jacobovici isn’t a professional in any of these fields, yet he makes films that claim to revolutionize our knowledge in one area after another. I find that hard to believe.
I have a feeling that Jacobovici and his work falls into the categories of pseudo-history and pseudo-archaeology. I’ve seen it so many times, along with pseudo-science. They put together the most compelling cases for revolutionary discoveries and theories, but people familiar with the field find these theories to be full of holes. I could give you a zillion stories
I’ll say one thing in his possible defense. No matter what the field, members of the establishment will defend the accepted knowledge. In doing so, they’ll often be very vicious. So, it’s possible that he has raised the hackles of the establishment. But I find it unlikely that Jacobivici could have found reliable revolutionary information about so many topics. Like I said earlier, most professional’s in a field hope to find one or two major new pieces of information.
#21
B Roll,
Re: "But in this case, we’re told that the Jews took a period in Hyskos history in which the Hyskos conquered and ruled one of the most glorious civilizations in history and made it into a story of Jewish slavery and oppression and put it into their holiest book. They completely leave out the part about conquering and ruling Egypt."
Yes, I wondered about this, too. This seemed like a gaping, unverified hole in these theories.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment: "I’ll say one thing in his possible defense. No matter what the field, members of the establishment will defend the accepted knowledge. In doing so, they’ll often be very vicious."
To me, that is one of the most ironic occurences in scientific study. Science should be about keeping an open mind and allowing new information or ideas to be part of the conversation. Not to acknowlege new information or possible credible ideas is the antithesis of the scientific search for truth. But, just as in politics or other areas of life, people protect their interests. It's really a shame.
#22
B Roll,
Re: "When I look at the Wikipedia page I see that his films present controversial theory after controversial theory. Theories that, if true, would revolutionize our understanding of ancient history. Most professionals in the field work to find new things and expand our knowledge, but very few revolutionize the field. Jacobovici isn’t a professional in any of these fields, yet he makes films that claim to revolutionize our knowledge in one area after another. I find that hard to believe."
Sadly, I realize I should have verified the source. I will try to be more aware of that in the future. (I am sensitized to look at motivation and background in politics but not so much in science, I guess. Thanks for keeping the discussion "honest." Otherwise, what's the point?)
#23
B Roll,
I had to laugh when I read the criticism of one of Jacobovici’s works as a “disgusting little exercise in money-making” (from the Wikipedia page you referenced.)
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