President Obama, "It's not Class Warfare - It's Math!"
By louisehartmann
President Obama unveiled his $3 trillion debt-reduction plan today – and millionaires aren’t going to get off so easy this time. In what is called the “Buffett Rule” – the President proposed partially closing the capital gains tax loophole. This lets many of America’s millionaires and billionaires like Warren Buffett and Paris Hilton - who just collect dividend checks all day by the pool – skate by paying only a 15% tax rate – far lower than the rate working stiffs pay. Under the President’s new plan – the richest of the rich will pay at least the same tax rate as average middle class taxpayers.
Seems fair, right?
Not if you’re Republican Budget Chairman – and guy who wants to throw Grandma off a cliff by privatizing Medicare – Paul Ryan – who decried any tax increase on the rich as “class warfare.” Coincidentally – at the same time – Ryan and the rest of his Republican buddies came out against tax cuts for middle class families – the payroll tax-cut included in President Obama’s “American Jobs Act.” In fact – under Ryan’s Republican budget proposal that nearly every single Republican in House voted for – taxes would actually go UP on middle class families – and go down on millionaires and billionaires. So to recap – Republicans are calling a tax hike on billionaires “class warfare” – but are at the same time pushing for a tax hike on the middle class.
There is class warfare all right in America – and as Warren Buffet said – it’s his class – the rich – that’s winning. Thank to shills like Paul Ryan.
Comments
#2
It's only called Class Warfare when WE fight back.
#3
I coined the term "Profitize" years ago. Where are my royalty checks?
#4
Re: Ron Paul is a republican... don't drink the Koolaid.
Yea, and so is Obama.
#5
September 19, 2011
Obama's Recipe for Tax Disaster
By Adam Yoshida
President Obama's "Buffett Tax" proposal to change the nation's tax laws may sound seductively reasonable. Ensuring that nobody earning over a million dollars a year pays a lower percentage than the middle class sounds like justice. The truth, however, is that -- no matter how well-packaged it may be -- Obama's proposal is a nasty bit of class warfare that will destroy jobs, drive investment out of the economy, and harm the middle class, and it is certain to raise far less revenue than predicted.
Let's begin our discussion of this with the last part. Those, such as Warren Buffett, who feign outrage at the idea that a handful of extremely productive citizens might pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes than those with other kinds of income are being intentionally dishonest. They know full well that the reason why this occurs it that the sort of income being earned by these individuals consists largely of money that is realized in forms other than ordinary wage income, such as capital gains. Income of this sort is deliberately treated differently from how other kinds of income are treated because it accumulates over time, and is realized all at once. And for decades, inflation has been causing illusory capital gains to be reported.
Obama's proposal would amount to a massive increase in taxes on capital gains and other similar sources of income. People whose income comes in this fashion tend to have a very high degree of control over how and when they get paid. Does anyone think that such a massive change in taxation would not be accompanied by a corresponding change in behavior? Because most individuals with incomes in this range have the resources to engage in all sorts of behavior for the purpose of tax avoidance, it seems likely that a tax of this nature would raise far less revenue than any initial predictions would suggest.
Republicans need to absolutely home in on this point. It's bad enough to have a tax that's unfair and economically destructive. It's altogether another level of terrible to pass a tax that is both of those things and which doesn't bring in very much money
This is not an issue of seeking to protect our friends. I -- and I think I speak for many other conservatives in saying this -- oppose increasing taxes on the "rich" not because I have any great affection for most of them. I oppose it because all of the evidence that we have suggests that it won't work, that it will hurt the economy, and that any measures passed to target the "rich" today will come to haunt the middle class tomorrow.
It is important, in this context, to remind the general public of two things. First, almost all taxes that initially target only the "rich" -- the original income tax immediately comes to mind -- typically trickle down to target the middle class. This will especially prove to be the case for a tax, such as this one, where the facts on the ground make it likely to bring in far less money than initially estimated. Second, one doesn't even need to look as far back as the introduction of the income tax to see how this will go wrong: there's already a tax of this exact nature on the books called the Alternative Minimum Tax. Plenty of middle-class Americans already know how the AMT, also a tax passed to target supposedly tax-avoiding millionaires, has come to attack them. The Congress knows this as well, given that they have to annually pass "patches" onto the AMT to keep it from harming most of the middle class.
The sort of tax-avoiding behavior that these measures would incentivize are just about the worst thing that could happen to a fragile economy. Investors and other millionaires would defer income whenever possible, leaving money in already swollen corporate coffers and keeping it out of general circulation. We often underestimate the distorting effects that high taxes have on the economy and society as a whole. To pick just a single example, the strange state of American health care and the unique American reliance on private health insurance is a quirk that came to be as a result of extremely high taxes during the Second World War, when employers sought to hire away workers by offering tax-deductible health insurance to potential employees in lieu of other forms of compensation.
"The suspension of one man's dividends," Calvin Coolidge once reminded us, "means the suspension of another man's pay envelope." It is hard to think of anything that the government could do to better illustrate that essential truth than making it less attractive for the wealthy to dynamically invest their money.
There is one other point to consider. We are in the preliminary stages of one of the greatest public policy battles in our history. The government has current obligations that far exceed its ability to pay. In the coming years we will find ourselves with a choice: we can either pay, or we can reject as odious the promises made on our behalf by past generations. If we give in now, to this supposedly "reasonable" demand, we will simply have set the stage for the showdown over the next demand, and then for the one after that.
What we must do instead is stand firm in support of the policy that we know to be both best for the economy and morally right. It is morally wrong when laws are written to do special favors for a single individual or group. As conservatives, we believe in equality before the law and, just as it is wrong that the law should treat anyone with special favoritism, it is equally wrong to write laws that target a specific group for special mistreatment. The solution to a tax code full of easily exploited loopholes is not to target any single group for attack through addition to the code; it is to rewrite the code from the ground up in order to ensure equitable treatment for all.
Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/../2011/09/obamas_recipe_for_tax_disaster.htmlat September 19, 2011 - 12:20:55 PM CDT
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#6
Two party consent states for recording: http://aapsonline.org/judicial/telephone.htm
#7
Ted,
I share your frustration, truly I do, but to give up on government is exactly what the GOP wants you to do. (You've heard of Paul Weyrich, right?. The GOP knows that when people vote, Democrats win. By engendering dissatisfaction of and distrust in the government, the GOP knows they will keep voters away from the polls. All you have to do is look to Wisconsin to see the consequences of giving up.
Similarly, to believe that BOTH sides suck, that both Repubs and Dems are the same, is to fall again into the tricks of the GOP. Take a step back, breathe, look at the big picture, and you'll see that it's the Republican/Conservative/Tea Party side that has prevented and continues to prevent, deliberately and maliciously (and systematically through the 38 new laws aimed at voter suppression), every bill that would prove beneficial to us un-millionaires.
Under the circumstances, Ted, surrendering to frustration is only self-defeating. What you, and the rest of us who believe in equality in all aspects of life in America, need to do is show up. If we disappear, we lose.
#8
More on Illinois eavesdropping laws:
ACLU v Alvarez, http://www.aclu-il.org/aclu-v-alvarez22/
Judge Conlon determined that there was no First Amendment right to audio record. I suppose she would also agree that the citizenry has no right to look at public officials, or hear what they say, or write anything down.
#9
Lyoung, When both parties are simply two branches of the same party, and we are left with voting for a Blue Dog Democrat, does it really matter?
#10
Whenever I talk to Republican family members - all they can say is that people are crooks and government will never work! You can't talk sense to them! Which is a shame. I believe that some people are crooks - but the majority are trying to do something good. We just need to remember NEVER to vote for someone who thinks that government will never work - because they won't try! Maybe we need to keep a list going to remind us who thinks that way - and to pass on to our family members!
One question to ask when Republicans are saying - look at that ! it's broken! It's no good! -- ask what Republicans did to break it!
Sadly, Democrats are not looking for the scams that Republicans put into legislation. They need to set up a team to do that -- to review the final legislation - the add on's, etc. So they can fight back before it gets voted on!
#11
Obamas recipe for tax disaster? LOL! Saying that refusing to maintain the AMT -- which was the problem -- means that the tax was wrong! Talk about spinning! Also, we shouldn't tax because of those that are hiding their funds? I think we need to increase the penalties for bad bahavior. I also think that any business that is not headquartered in the USA should not benefit from US tax writeoffs, exemptions, etc, etc.
I don't believe that states should be allowed to give away the income for communities to business either. Which is what corporations are trying to force the US government into giving up taxing money to come back into the USA -- they are hiding profits made in China or elsewhere from being collected. the same scam on a larger scale. repatriot money? sure -- pay the taxes! put in a reverse vat or that inspect imports to be paid by the exporter!
#12
hey Ursel - your RW postings are a bit long - can you read them? I remember when Reagan said he was not responsible for anything that happened on his watch --- that the legislation, the agencies, the S&L scandal, the embassies attacked, and more had nothing to do with him. Republicans cheered! So Useless, you are saying that Democrats don't get the same immunity to responsibility that Republicans get? Does it matter that half of the things you listed are BUSH leftovers? Are you actually posting due to interest or just trolling? Inquiring minds would like to know! :D
#13
i did not hear the level of fervor i would have liked. makes me think he's just smoke screenin'. trying to apease the masses of working stiffs that are getting shafted everyday and while i have not lost hope it boggles the mind that the collective of inteligence in washington in a word is stupider then a lot of the kids somnig out of high school!lol think about it.3 freekin years! and its nothing more the a teenage high school pissing match and we, the working stiffs are the hostages. its lunacy at its best!! I sure hope the man makes some heads roll. I think it would behoove our elected official to quit watching stupid TV...you know like the Kardashians! lolol
#14
No, it won't pass. UNLESS, Obama caves in to the seduction of his inner-compromise gland. The Republicans prefer a fight. It's good for their fundraising and for raising the blood pressure of their unwitting foot soldiers.
If Obama won't cave, again,....then that'll be a fight the country is dying to have.
Send a million lobbyists in to fetch a million tax breaks for the wealthy and priveleged...and no body says a word publically. Tax the wealthy and priveleged one time and the entire United States is electrified!
Nothing uneven about class warfare, right?
#15
Yes, it does. The tragectory of Tax Policy, Military Policy and the composition of the Supreme Court are vastly different depending on which of the parties is in power, whether you can differentiate between them or not.
#16
Actually, republican Paul Ryan is right: this IS class warfare. The rich have declared war on humanity. They have declared war on the entire middle class and the entire poor class in America. They have declared war on the middle class republicans who helped elect the republicans to congress. They intend to destroy all of our lives, and they'll do it. If we let them.
Every time a republican says, "Taxing the rich is class warfare," a democrat should say, "You're damn right it's class warfare- it's the rich thieves against the middle class and the poor, and they have declared war on us because they want to steal the rest of our money."
And every time Michael Medved says in that whiney sarcastic voice of his, "Oh, the rich are so awful, they're just terrible," a democrat should say, "Why, you're right: they are so awful and terrible- how perceptive of you, and how courageous of you- a republican- to tell the truth about the people who are paying you millions of dollars to lie to us."
And every time a republican says, "You're alienating the job creaters," a democrat should say, "Yes, you're right, we are alienating the job-outsourcers."
And if the republican says, "No, I said the job-creaters," a democrat should say, "That's what I said: the job outsourcers, you know- the tax dodgers, the America-haters, the freedom-haters, the people who want ot destroy America by selling it to China."
#17
Blah Blah Blah -job creators, yeah, heard it and I don't buy it. When tax rates were higher -much higher- the wealthy did not go hide in a hole and cease investing. In fact America hummed along quite nicely (though it is true that income gap between CEO and worker was not as great. Bummer -only one Bently this year, dear.)
I do know this: the grand experiment you propose has already been tried. It was called Trickle Down and it failed miserably. We were told to work harder and be more productive. We were told that if we allowed the rich to keep more money that we'd see our fair chunk of the prosperity. Instead, the wealthy sopped up our increased productivity and greedy bastards gambled everyone's future away, evaporated our home equity, crippled ourt schools cities and states -and we bailed them out -and they want even more. It amazes me that that's not as clear as day -<i>we just lived through it!</i>
The GOPs cure for the disease it brought on America is more of the same. And because we're broke now, they still want us to pay to keep the big guys swimming in cash. They talk about no new taxes, but they're fine with any taxes that hit the middle class - as we see with the opposition to any payroll tax cut and, here in MN, their elimination of the home mortgage deduction.
Class Warfare. That is exactly what it is. I have no problem calling it that.
http://www.politicalcartoons.com/cartoon/ffa63ca4-c191-4342-9f29-318e8c6...
#18
Agreed And Ralph Reed One of the younger GOP hacks just stated ' God will ask how we voted in this election ' Amazing Now they know what God plans to do ! Phony Self righteous NON Christians ! Jesus said' Heal the sick Feed the Hungry ' Must have been a Liberal
#19
DRichards, yes, it most certainly matters, because today's Republican party is "not your grandfather's Buick" kind of Republican party. The choice isn't between a Blue Dog Dem and a George Bush or even a Ronald Reagan. It's whatever you think Pres. Obama is vs. an "applaud executions, let the uninsured die" party. And is that the party that you want appointing the next Supreme Court Justice(s)? It's bad enough the Roberts court ruled that corporations are people. Imagine what a Rick Perry Supreme Court could do. Shudder.
#20
I would like to why the Scrigna Brothers, who claim to be "the legal heirs" of Walt Disney Studios and Walt Disney Productions also have a family company whose assumed named is Berkshire Hathaway, according to the Illinois Secretary of State:
HOLLYWOOD MODELS, INC. File Number 67488865 Status NOT GOOD STANDING Entity Type CORPORATION Type of Corp DOMESTIC BCA Incorporation Date (Domestic) 05/18/2010 State ILLINOIS Agent Name INCORP SERVICE, INC. Agent Change Date 05/18/2010 Agent Street Address 2501 CHATHAM RD STE 110 President Name & Address Agent City SPRINGFIELD Secretary Name & Address Agent Zip 62704 Duration Date PERPETUAL Annual Report Filing Date 00/00/0000 For Year 2011 Assumed Name ACTIVE - BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY INC. ACTIVE - MASTER MACHINE, INC. ACTIVE - MASTER MACHINE TOOL AND DIE COMPANY, INC. Old Corp Name 11/29/2010 - DISNEY ENTERPRISES, INC.
#21
Republicans practice "class warfare" but not rich against poor, their version is old against young. By saying they will leave medicare and social security alone if you are 55 or older they are pitting children against parents/grandparents. Where is our outrage?
#22
In response to your question today, NO they have no intention of trying to do anything that might be seen as helping Obama, even if it means laying waste to America and the people that have to work for a living here.
As for Class Warfare, you don't have to be a supporter of unions, a Marxist, a socialist, a leftist, a liberal, a progressive or any other name the conservatives/Republicans want to label rational thinking people with to understand that there has been an on going coldwar between business owners and managers versus people that have to earn a living, ever since the truly violent labor battles that existed here prior to the enactment of the "Wagner Act" signed into law by FDR in 1935, which limited what employers could do to stop workers from forming Unions. Yet ever since then the conservatives/Republicans having been doing everything they have been able to get away with when it comes taking away the rights of workers. The conservatives really stepped up their assertiveness in this struggle, when they began purging liberal and moderates from their ranks, and then joined forces with the religious right for pursuing the dumbing down of the American electorate, which helped bring into power Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, as American workers were actually able to be duped into voting in people that would work against their own best interests, as they heeded the call of patriotism and religious dogma (concerning social issues) without even realizing they were actually aiding the people of wealth and power that were tearing away the middleclass in America. It wasn't American workers that wanted jobs shipped out of the US so that American and gobal business interests could make even greater profits; it's not American workers that want to deny working people health care, because it cuts into profits; it's not American workers that want to strip away rules that protect workers and the public from injury and death because those laws cut into profits for investors and business managers; it's not the American workers that want to overturn environmental laws that are intended to not only protect the environment, but to keep people from breathing polluted air and drinking polluted water.
And yet because of the dumbing down of the American electorate, which includes not teaching our children in school how to think rationally and critically when it comes to making decisions for themselves and their future, we have the best propaganda machines that money can buy in America spinning their BS to keep the working people in America from realizing that the rich our destroying us in this coldwar. And I keep using the working people as being the duped ones, because the poor in America have known this to be the truth already, as the rich have successfully played off the middle class from the lower class so they don't join forces against them.
And now it comes down to whether the so-called centralized independant voters will shoot themselves in the feet and vote back in, or at least be dumb enough to stay away from the polls as they did in 2010, and allow the Republicans (who are now even more conservative and dumber than ever) wreak even more damage on the American economy, while stripping away even more rights and protections for working and non-working poor in America.
As Pogo (Walt Kelly) said, "We have met the enemy and he is us!"
#23
I listened to President Obama's speech today on his $3 trillion debt-reduction plan, the "Buffett Rule", and took it with a grain of salt due to the past 2 1/2-years of betrayal to the people that voted him into the White House in 2008, not to mention their $$$$. While Obama has done some good things for the people, he has done far, far more for the Big Banks, Wall Street, Corporations and the Millionaires and Billionaires, with the Peoples' tax-dollars. He said "It's not Class Warfare - It's Math!"! Excuse me, who's math? So far the math has favored the rich, NOT the MAJORITY of the "People"! "We" can only HOPE (seems I heard that word a lot in 2008) that the President does as he speaks, and this is not just in the spirit of the 2012-campaign.
Dan Williams
Founder - www.TheBridgeToNowhere.org
#24
Mr. Yoshida: How do you explain the vast shift in income distribution over the past 30 to 40 years? Have you noticed how many people are now living in the parks? The favoritism shown to one class of people over these number of years has turned us into a fascist state fast heading toward the status of banana republic -- and you want to try to convince any reasonably intelligent, thinking person that it is class warfare to try to turn the results of this 30-year war against the American Middle Class back against the greedy super-selfish, unpatriotic "people" who've been waging it? The Middle Class repesents the bulwark of freedom against tyranny in any great democratic republic. The Republicans and their greedy, deceitful friends have nearly succeeded in decimating it. We have you, and all those who think like you, to thank for the fact that the American experiment, the greatest experiment in democracy on the face of the earth, is about to expire. SO PLEASE: Take your BS elsewhere.
And what I originally intended to focus on when I came here is: Let's talk about just how many Republicans in Congress are miillionaires and let's ask ourselves about the status of their so-called "patriotism." Let's ask ourselves if these people have ever heard of the word "service."
#25
Republicans like to declare war. They declared war against terror as if it were possible to wage war against an idea. The War againt Terror has been a disaster for this nation as well as for Iraq and Afghanistan. It is time to stop declaring war whenever there is a problem. Now they are accusing President Obama of waging war against rich people because he wants them to pay their fair share of taxes. War is the only word Republicans understand, because they know that waging war will help them get richer. Waging war makes their base of support feel fear, they love to frighten their base.
This is not a surprise. However, this time it will not work. Americans will not believe this lie. Taxing billionariers and millionaires whose wealth is only possible because of America is only right and fair.
Philip Henderson, ethical magician
#26
It can't pass. The House will not let it come up for a vote. If it did pass the House, the Senate would filibuster the bill and not allow a vote. Obama does not expect a vote. It appears he has finally woke up and realized being nice to Republicans will cost him re-election. He understands his party is a bunch of wusses and he can expect no help from them. He now understands it is entirely up to him. Finally he is showing the distinction between Democrats and Republicans and how completely the Republicans have sold their souls to the wealthy and Corporate America. What he is counting on is, that despite not being able to count on Democrats for help, for Republicans shot themselves in the foot as they often do. His focus on fairness is a wise choice for everyone deep down knows while the wealthy are doing exceptionally well, the rest of us are going to hell in a hand basket. What is waiting for us is a Third World country if the REpublicans win in 2012. They are betting all of their marbles on 2012 evidenced by the extent to which they are putting their dream agenda on the plate. In the past this was all done behind the scenes. They now think they can get the whole enchilada and turn Social Security over to Wall Street, Medicare over to private insurers, prisons over to corporate donors, education over to private and corporate donors, eliminate taxes on corporations, restrict wages to $12.00 an hour without benefits, eliminate Medicare, make it illegal to sue corporations, etc. Obama now understands he needs his base, especially the college students and minorities to show up in mass to have a chance of winning. 2012 will be the Wealthy versus the Middle Class and outcome will determine if there is a Middle Class. If Democrats fail to show up as happened in 2010, life the way we have known it will cease to exist.
#27
"The richest of the rich will pay at least the same tax rate as average middle class taxpayers." Without a doubt this statement represents the will of the vast majority or "We The People" and seems absurd that it's even an issue. However this said we all know the "Buffett Rule" will be greeted with disdain by the republicans with little chance of passage, against majority will . In my opinion this makes the matter not only class warfare, but in the bigger picture, it's war on our DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM. As history has shown people are willing to die for these principles, lets hope in 2012 voting for them will be enough.
The fighting Bob Fest speeches were great...Thom, Bernie, good job!
Freedom for all is DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM!
#28
More on eavesdropping/wiretapping:
The cases of Fanon and Adrian Parteet, arrested for recording their own traffic stop in DeKalb, Illinois, and Chris Drew, arrested for recording his own arrest while challenging a Chicago city ordinance are telling in that the original reasons for police intervention were ignored once the defendants were found to have recorded the police without permission. They were only charged with the crime of eavesdropping, a Class 1 Felony in IL that can bring up to 15 years in prison. By contrast, aggravated criminal sexual assault is a Class 2 Felony, punishable by up to 7 years in prison.
#29
Ok, Ursel, here we go:
Yes, it does sound seductively reasonable to force billionaires to pay their fair share of taxes. It also sounds eminently reasonable. And it sounds quite reasonable. And now I will say it in Brit-speak: it also sounds ever so reasonable, terribly reasonable, and bloody well reasonable, too.
And yes, it also sounds like justice. In fact, it IS justice.
The completely transparent thing about republicans is that whenever they accuse liberals of engaging in, say, class warfare, for instance, you know that that is what the republicans are doing. And so you are, Ursel. But thanks for the sound byte because it's very useful, because what we have here is someone- you- who is trying to aid and abet America's enemy, by continuing the unfair tax breaks that hyper-wealthy republicans have been getting for decades. I didn't hear you calling it class warfare when your rich employer (yes, we all know you are paid to post republican lies and half-truths on Thom's website) got his tax breaks that did not include any tax breaks for the average person. No, you are always strangley silent when it comes to rich people getting more than their share of the pie. But now that average people realize that rich people have been getting a far better deal than they have, they're upset. Not that I would expect you to understand or sympathize with that, Ursel, because your job depends on you posting right wing fascist dogma. You are not required to make sense or in fact even sound sane. Just spout the fascist doctrine and you get paid.
You say that saying the rich should pay their fair share of taxes is a "nasty bit of class warfare." Well, you're about half-right: there is class warfare going on, but it's a war that your republican employer and his rich friends started against America's middle class, to turn America into a third world country by degrading our education system, destroying our health care system, stealing peoples' retirements, stealing social security, stealing medicare money, stealing peoples' houses, and pretty much stealing every other thing that isn't nailed down. And yes, more and more people are realizing it, so your lies are convincing fewer and fewer people.
You say that if the rich have to pay their fair share of taxes, it will destroy jobs. Huh? Listen, Bubba, you might want to pinch yourself or something and wake up, because your rich employer and his friends have ALREADY OUTSOURCED MOST OF OUR JOBS TO CHINA, INDIA, AND OTHER SLAVE-LABOR COUNTRIES. What world do you live in, that you haven't noticed that virtually all of our manufacturing jobs have already gone overseas?
You say that if the rich have to pay their fair share of taxes, it will drive investment out of the country. Here again, Bubba, I'm sorry to burst your repubican bubble, but investment HAS ALREADY BEEN DRIVEN OUT OF THIS COUNTRY, by your rich employer and his rich friends. You have one of the relatively few safe jobs, spouting lies for republican fascists.
You say that if the rich have to pay their fair share of taxes, it will harm the middle class. I guess haven't noticed that the middle class has already been harmed, by your rich republican employer and his friends, who are tax-dodging and outsourcing our jobs. Job creators, my lilly white ass. They are job-destroyers.
You say that if rich people are forced to pay their fair share of taxes, it won't raise as much revenue as predicted. That's another lie, but even if it were true, you are saying the rich should be allowed to dodge their fair share of taxes "because it's not that much money." So, would you mind if I steal some money from you? It's ok, because I won't steal much. Just a little. A few hundred billion per year. You'll never miss it, I promise.
You say that the rich are "extremely productive." Personally, I don't call it productive when a man sits on his butt and invests and re-invests his billions of dollars. All he's doing is shuffling computer bytes around on the internet, and making decisions that put honest, decent, hard-working Americans out of work and out of their houses. Most billionaires got that way AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, by insider trading, ponzi schemes, and other thievery. I suppose you could call them highly "productive" thieves, liars and frauds. Yes, you could call them productive in that sense.
You say that once a person has stolen so much money that he doesn't have to work anymore, his income should be taxed at a lower rate. I disagree. You're saying that because he didn't earn the money by working at a real job, he shouldn't have to pay taxes on the wealth that he sits on while the children of his former employees go without food and have no place to live. Tell me, would you like to be one of those super-rich people who sits on billions of dollars while poor people starve to death? And would you sleep well in that situation? If so, you are a sociopath, just like the guy who is paying you to post nonsense on Thom's blog.
You say, "inflation has been causing illusory capital gains to be reported." Well, if inflation bothers you all that much, why don't you tell your republican boss and his friends to stop manipulating our economy and thus causing inflation. Frankly, we'd do just fine without all of those freeloading, lazy, shiftless, lying, good-for-nothing corporate welfare frauds. (So, tell me, how do you republicans like it when someone insults you the way you insult other people? Is it ok, or is it only ok when you insult other people? I'm just asking.)
Unlike you, I will stand up and cheer if Obama's proposal amount to a massive increase in taxes on capital gains and other similar sources of "sit there and cash the checks" income.
You're right: people who steal hundreds of billions of dollars every year from our middle class, do tend to have a lot of control over how and when they are paid. What's your point? They should still pay taxes on it, however and whenever they get it. It's called TAXATION for a reason. Let me explain to you how taxation works: when you make money, you give some of it to the government, to keep our infrastructure going. Because if you don't spend money on infrastructure, all of the roads get huge potholes and become impossible to drive on, the bridges fall down, and so on. But I get that this is an impossible-to-understand principle for republicans who just want to steal money and make other people foot the entire bill for everything, because they prefer bribing congress to create tax loopholes for them. And you think that anyone who can bribe congress shouldn't have to pay any taxes. Ever. No matter how much money they steal, and no matter how much money they force the middle class and the poor to give the government to make up for the taxes that the rich refuse to pay. Good strategy. Works really well. Except, of course, for the depression our country is in. But why would you care about that? You're getting paid to post nonsense on progressive blogs.
But you are right that it is bad to have a tax that's unfair and economically destructive, WHICH IS WHY THE RICH SHOULD START PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES- because the middle class and the poor are tired of footing the entire bill. And if you think there should be no government spending, why don't you demonstrate your committment to that cause, by not using the roads, bridges, airports, courts, and military that are paid for by taxes and government spending? Well? Or are you just saying things that you don't believe in. And if you are just saying things that you don't really believe in, you fit in very well with the republican party, they're always doing that.
What do you think your rich republican boss will do to you the moment he starts thinking he would make more money if you weren't around? (Hint: he'll fire you without blinking an eye, and won't care if getting fired means you lose your house. If you don't believe me, ask him, and look in his eyes when he's answering. You should know what kind of people you're working for.)
You say that taxing the rich won't work. How do you know? We've never tried it. Well, actually, we have and it worked very well. But you republicans have never been very big on history, because it gets in the way of your lies. And we can't have that, can we? So, when you finish your job posting nonsense on Thom's blog, are you going to go down to Texas and help re-write the history and economics books?
You say that taxing the rich would hurt our economy. But the truth is that when we taxed rich people our economy did well. Extremely well, in fact. And the instant we stopped taxing rich people, our ecomomy started going into the toilet. The more people lose their jobs and houses because of republican lies and inhuman dehumanizing republican policies, the more people will see right through your lies. And there's nothing you can to do stop it.
You say it will "haunt" the middle class if the rich are taxed. So, are you thinking it will haunt them more than our present situation, where the rich pay no taxes, outsource our jobs, overcharge us for banking services, cheat us out of our houses, trick us into wars based on lies, get trillion-dollar bailouts and then refuse to let any of that trillion dollars "trickle-down" to the middle class and the poor, and then try to blame everything they have done to us, on... ourselves? Oh yes, I'm just simply haunted by the possibility that the rich might be taxed. I lay awake at night worrying that the rich might have to pay their fair share of taxes.
You say, "... almost all taxes that initially target only the rich... typically trickle down to target the middle class." Really? And how do you know that? Really, I want to know how you know that. Because America has never, in our entire history, first taxed the rich and then taxed the middle class after that. So you must be talking about some other country. Which country is it? Bulgaria? Sudan? Mexico? You shouldn't put such lies out there, because someone- like me, for instance- might ask you exactly what you mean.
You say that if the rich were taxed, they would engage in tax-avoidance. Wow, we sure wouldn't want that. We have never had rich people avoiding taxes. No, wait, actually we do have rich people who avoid taxes. Maybe you're saying that if the rich are taxed, they will engage in MORE tax avoidance than they are engaging in now? But that's impossible, they couldn't possibly engage in more tax avoidance. And anyway, that is like saying, "I'm stealing money from you. If you complain, I'll steal more money from you."
You say "We often underestimate the distorting effects that high taxes have on the economy and society as a whole." Well, to quote George Bush, I sure wouldn't want to misunderestimate the distorting effect that high taxes have on the rich. Maybe you're saying that if the rich had to pay their fair share of taxes, middle class people would lose their jobs and lose their homes. Boy, we sure wouldn't want that to happen, would we? But wait- MILLIONS OF MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY LOST THEIR JOBS AND LOST THEIR HOMES, AS A DIRECT RESULT OF REPUBLICAN LIES AND THIEVERY AND TAX-AVOIDANCE. Maybe you have underestimated the distorting effect that rich people dodging taxes, has on the economy and on society as a whole. Yes, that's probably it. Perfectly understandable, don't feel bad about it, no one expects you to understand what's going on all around you and all over the country.
You say that private health insurance is a "quirk that came to be as a result of extremely high taxes during the Second World War." Ok, now let's tell the truth: private health insurance is a direct result of a republican scam, a way of stealing money from the middle class, on the pretext of "helping people be prepared" for accidents and illnesses. In all other industrialized countries, everyone has health care whether they have money or not. But you republicans don't like it when patriotic Americans find out just how badly you've been shafting us, do you? But you should be careful telling lies like that, though, because there's always a chance that some pesky person will come along and tell the truth.
You say that the suspension of one man's dividends means the suspension of another man's pay envelope. Huh, And here I was thinking that when rich people get dividends, they just sit on that money and hoard it, while they watch the little people suffering. You know, like your boss's boss sits on his money, and wouldn't spend a penny of it to save your life or anyone else's life. And I was also thinking that the suspension of another man's pay envelope was caused by republicans outsourcing America's entire heavy manufacturing base. And I was also thinking that the suspension of another man's pay envelope is made worse when his republican-controlled credit card company hikes his interest rate to 29%, compounded daily. And I was thinking that the suspension of another man's pay envelope is made worse when a bank fraudulently forecloses on his house even though they have no legal right to because they have NEVER held title to many of the houses they foreclose on.
You say, "We are in the preliminary stages of one of the greatest public policy battles in our history." Right you are. Except for the fact that it's not really the preliminary stages at all; your republican boss and his fascist friends have been trying to do this to America for decades. Ursel- or whatever your name really is- before you say things like that, you should open a history book. And do you really think that any of the people who read and post on this blog- many of whom have read Thom's books- will believe your lies? You know what? Your republican boss is wasting his money paying you to post nonsense on Thom's blog, because no one here believes you. You really might need to move to Texas and help re-write their history, science, and economics textbooks. So, in the spirit of friendly cooperation, I'm going to give you some stuff you can put in those books. God created the world a few thousand years ago. It took six days, then he laid around and rested. (That one is for both the history and science books.) It doesn't matter what you have to do to get resources out of the ground, including killing the people who have lived there since God created the world a few thousand years ago, and it doesn't matter how much you pollute the planet in manufacturing stuff from those resources, because God wants you to dominate the universe and stomp all over it. (That one is for the economics books.) Feel free to use these quotes, no charge.
You talk about the "odious promises made on our behalf." Boy, I sure know what you mean there. You're talking about the two wars that George Bush started on the basis of lies, aren't you? You know, the wars that Bush refused to put into the budget because he wanted his budget to look better than it really was, and he wanted the war bills to come due when a democrat got into office so you republicans could blame the bills on the democrats. You know which wars I'm talking about, don't you? The wars in which our military has murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people and illegally occupied two sovereign nations against the will of their people. You know, the wars during which we started becoming world class war criminals, torturing people who had committed no crimes and who had not even been accused of any crimes. We hanged people after world war two for doing the very things that we are now doing to other people. But it's ok when we torture people, because God wants us to, right? God does talk with you about these things, doesn't She? Maybe you didn't notice those wars. Look them up, they're called the Iraq War, and the Afghanistan War.
You say that if we "give in" to the demand that the rich pay their fair share of taxes, there will be another demand, and another and it will just snowball. Yeah, you're probably right. We will probably demand that the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan be stopped. And then we'll probably demand that our government stop sending innocent people overseas to countries there they will be tortured. Yes, we are very likely to make those demands. Count on it, in fact.
You say we should "stand firm." Another good idea, it's what progressives are doing in demanding that for once the rich start paying their fair share of taxes. Yessir, stand firm. I like that.
You say, "As conservatives, we believe in equality before the law and, just as it is wrong that the law should treat anyone with special favoritism, it is equally wrong to write laws that target a specific group for special mistreatment." Great! So the rich will be paying their fair share of taxes now? That is what you meant, isn't it?
You call yourself a conservative. Can you tell me what, exactly, it is that you are conserving? You're not conserving money, because you spend money on wars like a drunken sailor spends money on hookers. You know what a hooker is, don't you? Those women that so many republican congressmen spend so much money on. Ask them, they'll tell you all about it. Or maybe they'll lie to you. You know what a lie is, don't you? It's when you don't tell the truth. Anyway, we have established that you "conservatives" do not conserve money. At least you don't conserve government money. You do, however, conserve the money you have stolen from America's middle class. Now, what else do you conserve? You certainly don't conserve Christian values, because you like killing people. Foreign people in our illegal wars- you like killing them. Like torturing them, too. And you think it's funny when Rick Perry says he couldn't care less about the fact that he has executed innocent prisoners in Texas, so it's sort of difficult for me to believe that you want to conserve life. And as far as being Christian goes, well, there's that pesky part of the Bible where Jesus says, "As you have done unto the least of these my children, you have done unto me." But maybe you're thinking that the people you like killing are not God's children. Maybe God told you so?
#30
watch current tv count down with keith olbermann
#31
I can hardley listen or read about this anymore. What will we do if they get elected? It seems there are so many people who think these guys are right. What is going on in this country? HELP!
#32
Yes, the plan must pass. The president is correct; it is just simple math--no calculus required. When money flows and cycles through an economy, the economy thrives. Currently, the "job creators" are hoarding ALL the money. They have HAD their tax cuts for decades but have NOT created jobs, or contributed anything worth value to the US economy, as has been promised. NO ONE has held their feet to the fire or asked for or demanded results.
They began the class warfare when they attacked union protections and living wages for working people, blackmailed city and state governments for tax breaks (only to take their business overseas), bitched and whined about environmental and workplace safety regulations, and made "profit at all costs" each and every quarter their mantra.
As my husband says, "They think we can shit dollars." Which appears to be a colorful but accurate statement in light of the rest of us being asked to spend what we don't have so that those with the most can have even MORE. Sounds a lot like the way fuedalism worked.
#33
I get $300 per post, obviously, you are paid by the word. Ch-ching
.
#34
Time to KICK ASS !! Go Obama Go !!
#35
MaryMary: I am not paid to post. I think you are replying to the wrong post--I'm hardly wordy.
Elioflight
#36
You're right, I was responding to David Abbot
#37
Well, it's just nice to know that you're getting paid for prostituting yourself. Hookers should get paid, because God knows it's a job that is hard on the heart.
#38
It's only prostitution if you don't believe in what you do.
#39
Ok, "MaryMary," (or whatever your real name is), you say that you believe in what you do. And I think that is at least theoretically possible. But allow me to let you in on the dirty little secret that the republican party hides: when a republican needs money or any kind of service from the government, all of that Ayn Rand bullcrap goes flying out the window, and it's, "Give me this," "Give me that," and "Give me the other thing," "You have to help me," "You have to let me drive on the roads that I refuse to pay taxes for, and let me use the courts that I refuse to pay taxes to support." And on and on. So even if you believe in what you're doing, it's hypocrisy, because if you had no place to live, no food, or were dying of some illness or accident, you would be the first one in line for "government handouts." And if and when that happens to you- though I hope it doesn't- I wonder, how will you feel when your boss and your former friends in the republican party say, "No government handouts for you."
Boy, talk about loyalty; I am impressed. If I thought my boss would treat me that way, I would quit. But you stay on. I'm sure that means a lot to your boss...
All those republicans who control Wall Street and the banks that are "too big to fail-" what did they do after they had driven their republican corporations into a ditch and stolen all the money? Why, they said, "Big government, you have to give us a trillion dollars, you have to help us out, we can't do it on our own, we don't believe in self-determinism, we don't believe in up by your bootstraps, we're not republicans today, you have to give us so much money that it will take generations to repay it!" In other words, they're hypocrites. Liars. Con men. And con women. Frauds. Pretenders. Fakes. And funny thing: the instant they got that money, they turned back into republicans and refused to share any of that bailout money with anyone else; and they refused to give loans to people who desperately needed loans. And you know why those people desperately needed loans? Because the republicans stole their money, offshored their jobs, and stole their houses. But the republicans said, "Oh no, we can't give you loans, because you have, through your own irresponsibility, ruined your lives, so just sit back and enjoy being hungry and sleeping in alleys." Hypocrites. Thieves. Frauds. Liars.
#40
Are you off your medication David? I really wish I could help you. Maybe you could go back into therapy. All the best to you, I hope you get well. By the way David, I'm a high school teacher.
#41
All this personal back and forth fighting is just what the American "People" do not need, they want constructive SOLUTIONS! Good ideas and solutions come from INTELLIGENT conversation. Why not spend your time going after the REAL issues that negatively effect the (98%) of "Us", then maybe "We" ALL will survive this "Plutocracy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy) which is in control of "Our" government and "Our" lives.
The purpose of a "Government of the People, by the People, and for the People", IS JUST THAT!
Dan Williams
Founder - www.thebridgetonowhere.org
"Assume Nothing! Question Everything!"
#42
No matter where you stand on the President right now, the alternative is certainly horrific to contemplate. The GOP must not win. But we all must go one step farther:
If you comment on blogs, and that's all you do, that's nice, but there are a hundred thousand people commenting on blogs -we don't need more of this. And the paid trolls bait us with their BS, which is carefully engineered to tie up our time and keep us off our message (that, incidently, is why Usel, or whoever he is, posts in a place he knows he'll never get converts).
If you do nothing to actually help elect non-Republicans then, in a neglectful sort of way, you are part of the problem. As with any volunteer organization, the Democratic party or wonderful independent Senators like Bernie Sanders rely on a surprisingly small number of volunteers. To give you and idea, my congressional district, one of the most active in the nation, has about a million people -300 of which are active year round -maybe 500 (including individual candidate vols) when the election is in it's last months. (Remember that the next time you complain about "the party" -the party is whoever shows up!).
I won't assume everyone here only bloviates, but if you are a commenter and not a volunteer then you need to get off your freakin' keester. You can obviously form persuasive ideas and communicate them; you are the people who can make a difference with voters -use your talent where it will be far more effective!
It's class warfare -and more. It's a wholesale taking apart of our nation as we know it. Warrior or armchair quarterback -you choose.
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Dear Thom,
I love your program. I hardly watch television anymore as I cannot stand the lies of the corporate media and the plutocrat Republicans. You and Alyona are a breath of fresh air.
We shall see if Obama has any kind of balls to finally fight back against the plutocrat Republicans.
I have given up on the two-party system. I am so, so fricking tired of the right-wing lies and propaganda about "Class Warfare" and the Frank Luntz slogans about "Job Creators" and the "Government Option."
After 30 plus years of Reagan-Trickle Down plutocratic policies, these Republicans have gall to accuse anyone of "Class Warfare." Just remember: whenever you hear some plutocrat Republican or conservative or libertarian whine about "Class Warfare" it just means that they are too scared to have an honest debate about taxes, fairness, equity, or poverty. When was the last time you heard any politician mention the words "poverty" or "the poor" ?
God bless,
Ted,
New York City