#OWS - They may find some success w/shutdowns - but they won’t find success trying to kill off an IDEA

For a second night in a row – Oakland police resorted to tear gas and rubber bullets to put down the Occupy Oakland movement – which refuses to step down. Late last night – officers in riot gear confronted hundreds of Occupy Oakland demonstrators in front of City Hall – and used canisters of tear gas to clear the crowd. That was just the beginning though – as demonstrators reconvened after each clash with police – only to be dispersed again by more tear gas and rubber bullets.

The cat and mouse game between Occupy Oakland and police lasted throughout the night. There are reports that 10 demonstrators had to be treated for wounds after being shot by rubber bullets. Oakland police are defending their use of force – force that looks like a military operation – by claiming demonstrators were hurling rocks and bottles at them. Oakland mayor Jean Quan – who was in Washington, DC last night – rushed home as unrest hit the streets in his city. And despite two straight days of violent police crackdowns, Occupy Oakland demonstrators are vowing not to go anywhere.

Meanwhile – in Atlanta – police cleared Woodruff Park in the middle of the night – the site of Occupy Atlanta for the last two weeks. Several people were arrested – and it’s still unclear why police stepped in to break up what has been a peaceful occupation for more than 15 days.

There seems to be a concerted effort by law enforcement around the nation to put an end to the Occupy Movement – and they may find some success with arrests and shutdowns. But they won’t find success trying to kill off an IDEA.


Ljjones's picture
Ljjones 12 years 34 weeks ago

I was hoping to see a BALANCED report on the Occupy Movement which I support. Instead we read that Police "claim" to be attacked by bottles and rocks. Apparently only the protesters are VICTIMS - regardless of what they do to individuals or property. Police Officers are HIRED, PAID & REQUIRED to uphold the law - they do not WRITE the law. Neither are Police PAID to be physically injured & common sense & training requires 'riot gear' in any instance where 100 + people are defying a lawful order to disperse. And today we read a "MILITARY OPERATION reference while yesterday we had a NAZI GERMANY imitation that was disgusting & uncalled for. I will continue to listen to Senator Sanders on Fridays.

stonesphear's picture
stonesphear 12 years 34 weeks ago

fractions and lasers. -----

It's one thing to sort out the top 1% but it is another to sort out the ethics of the top 1%.

Yet another to be in the top 1% and try to sort out your ethics in the time at hand.

The top 10% plays into this as well as the top 34% , as well as the working class , as well as the working poor, and the lost to poverty.

No doubt judging wealth to be the ultimate criteria for good and evil is errant.

Minor fractions add up.

LeMoyne's picture
LeMoyne 12 years 34 weeks ago

The state police arrested 35 people who refused to leave Yale Park in Albuquerque last night. It appeared that a larger APD contingent (~50 city police) was doing the crowd control. Both the demonstration and police operation was peaceful though the threat of force was obvious.

I estimated a crowd of well over 300 in support of the occupation. Many were in the park near the sit-in during the arrests around 11 PM - they were then gently shooed out of the park onto the side walk. The police had previously blocked off the street and the crowd filled up the north side of the street (3 west bound lanes). The police requested the street be cleared at 12:30PM. There was one person who fled to escape arrest (for refusal to leave the street?) and pepper spray/mace was used by police within the crowd during that arrest. Even though it was all peaceful the demonstration was just a stone's throw from a police riot. There is a cloud of irony over the justification for the militarized police presence: it is supposed to prevent violence.

The occupation had a daytime permit from UNM until last night. So, last night was not at all the usual scene over the past two weeks with a dozen people sleeping on/near the sidewalk while a few occupers stay up all night. UNM, as well as the state, UNM and city police have refused to officially attend or speak at a GA for three weeks. Occupy Albuquerque, [aka (Un)Occupy Albuquerque in deference to Native American sensibilities] may not have a kitchen or information booth anymore, but may have become more of an occupation last nght.

teneraansis's picture
teneraansis 12 years 34 weeks ago

With reference for the need of "balanced" reporting on the Occupy Movement: Yes, reporting on ANY event must be balanced. It also must include an investigation into HOW the event came into being before it got as big as it is now, where people express their discontent.

We also should look into who made "the law" the police are "required" to uphold, and examine whether that "law" is an ass, undermining the people's rights, or not. If our friends peacefully camp out in large numbers in a PUBLIC PARK, in order to send a message into the world, then that is their constitutional right to do on public property, and no local regulation must be allowed to overide the issue of higher order through a local by-law, where the by-law gets superior recognition to overide the people's right to protest on public property for the good of all humanity.

I wish the police would recognize fundamentals of "law" here, and not pounce on folks merely by virtue of a local regulation which says: "GET OUT OF HERE, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS SO, AND WE ARE HERE TO UPHOLD THAT LAW."

In too many cases, everywhere you look, THE LAW IS AN ASS. Therefore also find the ones who make an ass out of laws the police believe they are compelled to enforce!

cygnus1's picture
cygnus1 12 years 34 weeks ago

"Meanwhile – in Atlanta – police cleared Woodruff Park in the middle of the night – the site of Occupy Atlanta for the last two weeks. Several people were arrested – and it’s still unclear why police stepped in to break up what has been a peaceful occupation for more than 15 days." submitted by Louise and Thom Hartmann.

When people get hold of an "idea" that is the beginning of a complete reform and the wise ones will never settle for less. There are of course, "ideas" and then there are "IDEAS" which in principle and posture have the activity of accomplishment outlined in detail. But to give the "whole IDEA" all at one time to the people, would be too overwhelming, so all must be accomplished in steps.

Following those steps, of course, is the "detail" once one succeeds in getting that far. This also protects the "SOLUTION" from being taken by others who wish to then infraction the rest of the solution into their own "idea" or "solution" bringing to bear another "solution" which would never work.

Ideas are not cultivated overnight, but through many many lifestreams of experience and understanding. Of working and communicating with those of a much greater intelligence whom live upon other worlds and utilize such systems there.

At one time this earth (for there are many) was considered to be flat. It, was found, however, that the earth was indeed not flat.

Man at one time believed that he or she could not fly. That too, was proven wrong.

And on and on, the list does go.

We have "more than an idea" for it is completely workable in it's detail. There is an "IDEA" for the Middle Eastern tribal regions and any regions upon the earth which are considered tribal, to be of great use to those whose lifestyles differ from those in the European and Western cultures.This "IDEA" was begun to be put in place, with the people working hand in hand with those of their leaders who understood. This effort has been undermined in various locals. In other locals or nations, the leadership thought they knew better. The people decided differently. But some of the people wish for their own security and power, therein destroying that which their people need to build, and that which the people, deserve.

There are those who do not wish these "ideas" or "solutions" to succeed and are very afraid of them, but what era has this not been the case?

An "idea" is one thing. A "SOLUTION" is completely another.

The Egyptians do not have their military behind them, therefore, they cannot progress in the manner they need to. All must work in a oneness of purpose. There cannot be "fragmentation" otherwise, as in governments, nothing can possibly work.

May the good and brave people, in the United States and world wide, continue their revolution, in order to bring about a time when "their" paradise can be built by themselves, for each other. Those who try hard to build their paradise, as a group, or individually, and whether they succeed or not in this lifestream , will in the next lifestream, reap what they tried to sow,

It is not enough any longer to espouse an "idea" with so many risking their lives, and livelihood, and well being.

Only a "SOLUTION" which is workable in all facets of life can be recommended and put into practice in the shortest period of time and that can be enacted within months, not years.

Pat Prachter's picture
Pat Prachter 12 years 34 weeks ago

Thom: You hit the nail on the head with the IDEA comment.

Victor Hugo said: You can resist an invading army: you cannot resist an idea whose time has come

teneraansis's picture
teneraansis 12 years 33 weeks ago

Well then, can we define that IDEA? Is it an idea which will lead us to a solution of this world's problems, over which the masses are now protesting and revolting? If this IDEA leads people to true freedom from oppression of any iniquitous force (or forces) then we are on the right track with our IDEA. We must therefore be sure the formulation of that IDEA speaks of a better life for all inhabiting this earth. If that is the case, then from that IDEA we begin to formulate the SOLUTION. The latter takes us to conclusions which must be correct. From that correct conclusion we then formulate a PLAN OF ACTION, which must include forces now being misused for evil purposes: the militaries, police forces, intelligence (spy) agencies, national security agencies, and so on.

We know the PLAN OF ACTION.


dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 12 years 33 weeks ago

...me? uh...I gotta work 6 days a week for pabst blue ribbon, mac and cheese and wine for the wife, buuuuut, now I think its time for them to take it to the nation!!! OWS needs dig deep organize and have us all occupy america! You know...uh...designate a day or several and everybody line streets hand in hand from sun up 'til tear gas flys. all the frikin way to washington!!! perhaps a national move to have it string across the country via route 66! that'll give some new historic value to the road way. I mean if i can be here in, i shall not say, and watch the tea baggins out on the corner once a month or so, you know that mob of 15 or so that regularlly tout signs baggin on Obama, then imagine how bad ass it owuld be for OWS to come up with something like this! I'm in for a saturday and sunday! are you? Hey thom you got the mic, help 'em do it!! rock on OWS!!!!

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 12 years 33 weeks ago

uh...its waking people up. funny too as i come into work and listen to the otherwise Obama haters it seems that even a couple of them may be waking up from the brainwashing they've been given and realizing that the political shills have sold us all out!

the other 98 12 years 33 weeks ago

First they ignore you.

Then they ridicule you.

Then they fight you.

Then "we" win!!!!!!

Alan Lunn's picture
Alan Lunn 12 years 33 weeks ago

Right-wing comments I've seen suggest that the movement is already being bought by Soros and others. As if the Tea Party is not now essentially owned by Koch interests (who in the past funded the John Birch Society). I don't think this is about turning the rich into enemies. It isn't that they have money: it's how they are getting it, who they are victimizing, and their agenda to get more in a wholly criminal way.

There's a difference here and in the Tea Party as it has become: The OWS is truly "populist" in nature. The philosophy of republicanism (going back to Machiavelli and further back to Plato) has always been the idea that the "people" are too dumb to run governments. There can never be a bona-fide right-wing populist movement of the people. It is philosophically untenable. All those who said the TP was "astroturf" were correct. Those old farts with the tricorn hats are corporate dupes within the Ailes-created propaganda bubble they recite faithfully and without questioning. And they are begging for their own extinction at the hands of the very elites who use them for their ends, when the puppet masters are through with their greedy purposes.

The OWS is the real populist movement, and it is global, and it is evolving. But there is one caveat for the TPs. They and Palin say they despise "crony capitalism," so I tell them, "Well, how do you get rid of it then?" They don't know. Palin hasn't told them. But it boils down to reducing government to shards, which the monopolists love. But to get rid of the bought government system of what Ron Reagan Jr. called "systematized bribery," you have to separate business and state (just like church and state). So when you hear TP legislators and others say "take America back," remind them that we need our government back. We need a constitutional amendment to make that happen. That means we need multiple millions of Americans to end the Wall Street occupation in Washington (TPs welcome).

SanLuisWill 12 years 33 weeks ago


I believe you asked how we thought this might turn out. There have been many interesting comments here, but I don't think anyone actually answered the question. Here's how I think it will "all turn out":

OWS has taken on the very power structue that controls the world: Transnational corporations. It has been said often that power does not relinquish control willingly, and the same will be the case here.

As we speak, a war veteran lies in critical condition in an Oakland hospital, the apparent victim of a tear-gas cannister fired at him during his participation in Occupation Oakland.

There will be a number of deaths of demonstrators as this movement continues. Eventually, there will be major confrontations and the Power Elite, employing their military arm (which includes state and local police), will drive most demonstrators into hiding.

There will then develop an "American Insurgency". The people will realize that all peaceful-protest efforts to change the status quo are ineffectual. The targets of this insurgency will be political and corporate leaders, especially CEOs of major banks and other financial institutions.

Most of us will cheer quietly, anonymously, from the sidelines, unwilling to put our lives on the line for the cause of justice, but supportive of those who ARE so willing. This insurgency could go on for decades, unless other worldwide conflicts spawn the world-ending nuclear armageddon that sane people fear, and religious fanatics look forward to with great anticipation.

Either way, not a pretty future; however, I fear it's an inevitable one because the rational among us have stood by for too long, allowing the Fascist dominators to gain control of every facet of our lives, while entertaining us with their trinkets and media. Those very trinkets have left us all under surveillance and vulnerable to a degree George Orwell could never have imagined.

Fasten your seatbelts. We're in for a long, bumpy, bloody ride.

cygnus1's picture
cygnus1 12 years 33 weeks ago

SanLuisWill, perhaps, you, are unaware that the Marines and Military are also we, the people. occupymarines.org.

Semper Fi: Occupy Marines Bringing Reinforcements To Occupy The Nation #Ows

The gathering of just a few US Marines has become a major organized movement to get Marines, police and all branches of military personnel to Occupy America nationwide"

To the forum: I apologize for not updating myself earlier upon the number of prison camps set up in the United States for the people by FEMA as run by the 1%.It has grown to 800 from 600. As justice will again one day rule, these camps are already there, waiting, empty, for you, the people, to place the 1% and their "hired hands" IN.

Here is why you, the people, need your Marines, Airforce, Army, Navy BACK. Then, you will have your police force. The large grants from corporate powers will no longer influence them. - Cygnus1

Americas FEMA camps, locations and…Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation

But, for all that is negative, all can be turned around into the positive, and that is precisely what we, the people, and the world protesters will continue to do. It is called "TURNING THE TABLES." - Cygnus1

teneraansis's picture
teneraansis 12 years 33 weeks ago

SanLuisWill, you have painted a very bleak picture of the OWS global future. I think you have accurately given us quite a realistic look in what might just happen IN THE EVENT this movement cannot find intelligent leadership. The powers in charge today are looking down upon what they call the "mob" in the streets, always confident that in a struggle between the wealthy few and masses in poverty, they will prevail and remain unscathed. But that may just be a dangerous assumption for them to make, as information on their misdeeds spreads faster than a speeding bullet. So, insert into your bleak description, of what the OWS movement may turn into a decade or two from now, the factor of proper LEADERSHIP and GUIDANCE, and then we may just be able to reduce your anticipated time frame for a solution from decades to months.

Pat Prachter's picture
Pat Prachter 12 years 33 weeks ago

SanLuisWill: That is one prophecy I sincerely hope never to see; however, the scary reality is that your scenario is likely to occur. Perhaps Cygnus1 has a point - getting the armed forces behind the movement would be great, but that, too could increase the likelihood of violence. I am a big believer in changing your own little world by rejecting the phantom wealth economy and investing locally. By this I mean pulling out of any too-big-to-fail bank, using a credit union, buying local, educating myself and others, supporting causes that reflect my values, not buying foreign goods....

The more we can each do in a spirit of justice, equality and logic, the bigger the potential for change without tragedy.

All the same, I too am fastening my seat belt

CharlesN 12 years 33 weeks ago

Regarding the outbreak of police violence,

We are each Occupation across the country; gathered, recognizing the tyranny that grips this Nation. We gather, as is our right set forth in the First Amendment to the Constitution of these United States; peaceably assembled to petition our Federal Government redress of grievances suffered.

There is no measure to quantify the longevity of which tyranny is capable, therefore to place such limit on our, on a citizens right of peaceful assembly while tyranny continues cannot be justified.

We citizens of these United States have a constitutional right to continue in our assembly, pointing a persistent finger at that tyranny as that tyranny continues, to continue in our petition until that tyranny is ended, and our grievances answered.

To oppose, to circumscribe us in this right, as when it is said, “You have made your point” (implied-now go home), to command this while this nation continues to bleed at tyrannies hand is tyranny of the basest sort!

Resist with militant non-violence!

Occupier @ OccupyOrangeCounty/OccupyIrvine, speaking for myself, by contrast yesterday evening, the City Council of Irvine, 3 democrats and 2 republicans by unanimous vote removed a limitation that caused us to remove our incampment by 10pm, able to rebuild at 6am, maintaining our presence those 8 hours on the sidewalk. We are 24/7 and able to sleep. Awaiting the storm troopers the beginnign of this post, to ... basest sort, triggered a surver alert???? When sent to the Oakland Mayor.

teneraansis's picture
teneraansis 12 years 33 weeks ago

On the troubles in Greece.

I feel sorry for the Greek people. It tears at my heart to see them beaten, injured and arrested by a police force, paid by their own taxes, yet the latter are violently smashing the people's aspiration for a better life. Greece's politicians are displaying greater fear of the European banker, operating under the cloak of "European Leaders," who eventually will decide whether Greece should swim or sink, than being fearful of the electorate that put them at the helm of the nation. All the while the nation is in convulsions from starvation of cash for the public sector, the option of national bankruptcy is barred from becoming a possibility, simply because the banker has placed a taboo on the national debt forgiveness option. The banker fears it will set a precedence whereopon other indebted nations will ask for the same, with the consequence of losing control over the nations, which in my view is about high time. People must ask themselves: who is governing our country? Our elected representatives we placed into positions of public trust, or the banker? Who is creating wealth, we, the people, or the banker?

National debts are no different from any other debts, and as such must be included in the option of defaulting upon, if economic conditions demand it. And in Greece, France, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, and many other nations, that is the case. The individual citizen is being given the opportunity for a new start after bankruptcy, so why not apply this principle to nations, states, provinces, hospitals, municipalities, etc. Think of the enomous amount of taxes we could save, and spend those funds into circulation, if the institutions we created to govern and protect us, were allowed to go bankrupt and be given a new financial beginning!

I truly hope this information will conveniently land afoot the Greek protest organizers, and give them understanding and inspiration to demand the cancellation of the nation's debt as the most logical option to the troubles the nation is in.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 12 years 33 weeks ago

The Greek people will oust their current government and refute any claims by the Europeans by claiming that the current Greek government doesn't represent the Greek people and that they are a fascist government that has no real authority. If the Europeans expect to have a land grab, like the Parthenon or the Greek Islands, through the current financial fraud that is being played out then the Greek people, when they kick out their current corrupt, Wall Street wrecked, government will tell the Europeans that if they expect to take control of Greek assets then they will have to send in armies to do it. These financial elites think they can take over countries without having to send in armies...and so far they seem to be scoring successes...especially with small countries (with the exception of Iceland..as the people voted against the bailout of the banks). But as hard working people in all countries see what is going on they will rebel and throw out their criminal and corrupt governments. Here, in America, I am hoping to see all Republicans and many Democrats get their butts kicked out of office this next time around. Yes, it could get bloody but that's what happens in wars....and the rich have been waging war on the rest of us for a long time now. They started it and we have to finish it. And we have to win!!! We have no other choice!!! We are only just now beginning to fight back! The ruling elite will all deserve any animosity and hatred and whatever else bad things that might happen to them. Many deserve long prison sentences, for sure!

Good on Michael Moore....who appeared yesterday on Piers Morgan interview! Michael Moore sure holds his own and does a super job of refuting any would-be character assassin from the right.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 12 years 33 weeks ago

"When was the last time the government stepped into help you "avoid losses you might otherwise suffer?" But that's the reality we live in. When Joe Homeowner bought too much house, essentially betting that home prices would go up, and losing his bet when they dropped, he was an irresponsible putz who shouldn’t whine about being put on the street.

But when banks bet billions on a firm like AIG that was heavily invested in mortgages, they were making the same bet that Joe Homeowner made, leaving themselves hugely exposed to a sudden drop in home prices. But instead of being asked to "suck it in and cope" when that bet failed, the banks instead went straight to Washington for a bailout -- and got it."

"Can anyone imagine a common thief being caught by police and sentenced to pay back half of what he took? Just one low-ranking individual in that case was charged (case pending), and no individual had to reach into his pocket to help cover the fine. The settlement Goldman paid to to the government was about 1/24th of what Goldman received from the government just in the AIG bailout. And that was the toughest "punishment" the government dished out to a bank in the wake of 2008.

The point being: we have a massive police force in America that outside of lower Manhattan prosecutes crime and imprisons citizens with record-setting, factory-level efficiency, eclipsing the incarceration rates of most of history's more notorious police states and communist countries.

But the bankers on Wall Street don't live in that heavily-policed country. There are maybe 1000 SEC agents policing that sector of the economy, plus a handful of FBI agents. There are nearly that many police officers stationed around the polite crowd at Zucotti park."


mwalkerco's picture
mwalkerco 12 years 33 weeks ago

Sieg Hiel! Let's all put on our brown shirts and goosestep in-time to the music of the high and mighty!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 12 years 33 weeks ago

"FREE MONEY. Ordinary people have to borrow their money at market rates. Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon get billions of dollars for free, from the Federal Reserve. They borrow at zero and lend the same money back to the government at two or three percent, a valuable public service otherwise known as "standing in the middle and taking a gigantic cut when the government decides to lend money to itself."

Or the banks borrow billions at zero and lend mortgages to us at four percent, or credit cards at twenty or twenty-five percent. This is essentially an official government license to be rich, handed out at the expense of prudent ordinary citizens, who now no longer receive much interest on their CDs or other saved income. It is virtually impossible to not make money in banking when you have unlimited access to free money, especially when the government keeps buying its own cash back from you at market rates.

Your average chimpanzee couldn't !@#$ (my censor for prurient eyes-word may be acceptable on Rolling Stone but I doubt it on Thom Hartmann) up that business plan, which makes it all the more incredible that most of the too-big-to-fail banks are nonetheless still functionally insolvent, and dependent upon bailouts and phony accounting to stay above water. Where do the protesters go to sign up for their interest-free billion-dollar loans?"


And so now the Madoffs are whining on 60 minutes about their "almost" committing suicide...duh, are we supposed to melt and give them sympathy, or even empathy? It's too bad they didn't go through with it. They deserve it...if not the guillotine or a hang-man's noose! That's what these rich scamsters all deserve! Too harsh? Not when you consider all of the people..even children..who may have died, or will die because of the "rich man's policy of squeezing people out of their fair wages and health care". Rich people are committing murder in their war against the people.

Well, at least the Madoffs made off (get it?) with other rich people's money and not some working stiff's life savings...or did they?

SanLuisWill 12 years 33 weeks ago

My gloomy prediction of OWS being pushed underground and an insurgency developing was not what I hope will happen, but what I think will happen. Keep in mind that the wealthy have been working tirelessly since the 60s (when the "rabble" took to the streets and shook corporate America to its foundations--figuratively and literally) to take control of, and/or neuter, all the weapons the average person, back then, had at his/her disposal to "fight city hall": the media, in the dearth of investigative reporters (and, the ubiquitous presence of Fox News; even the internet is being used for surveillance so that, when the time comes, the movement leaders will easily be identified and rounded up); the political system (now bought and paid for and, when that doesn't work, there are always rigged voting machines); the judicial system, which is stuffed with right-wing crazies (notice Pres. Obama has not replaced the Bush U.S. Attorneys; remember that quaint "habeous corpus" concept: the Patriot Act allows for the arrest of U.S. citizens on only "suspicion" and no charges or trial are necessary); law enforcement, with off-the-record "private security" firms burgeoning (recall that Blackwater members killed U.S. citizens during Katrina); and, undergirding all of these changes has been the backbone of right-wing think tanks, which were developed to provide phony "research evidence" to help convince the average person that the wealthy are their friends and corporations really do have their best interests at heart. Thus, the real fight-the-power weapons are gone and, unlike Egypt or Libya, where thousands of people were willing to give their lives to overthrow dictators, the masses in this country have been systematically softened and brainwashed into thinking that the military, after all, are the true patriots (have you noticed the continual drumbeat of militarism/nationalism during all recent sports broadcasts?). It won't take thousands of protesters killed to disperse OWS, maybe only a few. Then, the descent into Fascism will accelerate. Sorry...wish I could paint a rosier picture.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 12 years 33 weeks ago

Right on, SanLuisWill!!!

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