Afghanistan should serve as a warning to those who call for war with Iran
The dogs of war were released in Afghanistan more than a decade ago – and are now out of our control. News broke this week of a murder spree in Afghanistan’s Kandahar province committed by at least one US soldier against Afghan civilians. Reuters reports that as many as 3 American soldiers, who appeared to be drunk, opened fire in a small village at around 2am Sunday morning – shooting dead 16 civilians – including nine children.
One soldier has surrendered in connection with the attacks, which President Obama referred to as “tragic and shocking.” This latest incident is sure to spark another episode of violence in that unstable, war-torn nation – just as the Quran burning incident did a few weeks ago. The Taliban has vowed to avenge the killings, calling them a “blood-soaked and inhumane crime.”
Meanwhile, 60% of Americans now believe this war is not worth fighting. Let Afghanistan serve as a lesson to all those who are calling for more war with Iran – because it’s very easy to release the dogs of war – and much, much harder to bring them back.
It's an old experience of humanity, that war changes human beings to terrible beasts. We had too many wars, over a too long period of time. Plus the terrible poverty, misery and distress in this country. All together these are typical signs of a 3rd World country, and this makes nations mentally ill. If people complain about so many Americans being crazy, this is a normal phenomenon in 3rd World countries. Same goes for lacking union rights: In developed countries unions are guaranteed -- it's basic, it's normal in civilized countries.
This country is a mess. We can't afford another GOP Presidency -- this would make it only worse. I very much hope, we'll have four years with Obama and a decent majority in Senate and House, in order to recover....
When Obama speaks of this, he gets polite applause from the press corps. Do you think this soldier saw Obama praised for killing without due process? Do you see this soldier being applauded for murdering innocent people without due process?
This is what happens when the leader of the "free" world throws the rule of law out the window. Thom crowed his approval of the POTUS assassinating his own with no due process. Thom didn't know what was true or false, but he applauded Obama.
What would you have said if George Bush had assassinated three US citizens and took proud pleasure in announcing it?
Attitude: The criminals justify their actions as being on our side so let the criminals get away with it for our own sake all be it banksters, gangsters, political corruption or out right killers.. We have lost our way and there is hell to pay.
I have to agree. Good cop bad cop of magnificent proportions. And Thom buys it. I'm so disappointed in some of my favorite "progressive" voices, I cannot get beyond the POTUS assassinating his own. I tried, but I cannot accept this, and I can no longer support such a party.
Quote Oldcrone:...the leader of the "free" world throws the rule of law...(1) We are not the leader anymore -- do you think Europeans take us seriously any longer? We're struggling with ourselves. Since Bush's regime we're destroyed.
(2) "Free world" is elsewhere, but not in the U.S. -- we are owned by corporations. We gotta rid ourselves off that fatal corporatoricy, after that we might be free.
(3) Murderers can be killed anywhere, in America, or abroad. If you just threaten people with a weapon, you can be shot by a cop. What's new about that? Insane chicken-fuss, what you're making here.
(4) Obama is the best man we have and way better than any other we can get. People who hate Obama are either crazy, selfishly interested themselves, or just evil.
"People who hate Obama are either crazy, selfishly interested themselves, or just evil."
Really? Who hates Obama? Anyone who criticizes his actions?Questions his new found power to kill his own people with no due process? YOU think THOSE people are crazy,selfish or evil?
I can no longer support one corporate government. THAT is what we have. And I don't consider myself crazy, selfish or evil. How wonderful to feel so superior to those who don't think like you do.
That's wonderful! You can actually watch how you chaos guys babble us into a GOP regime -- including invasion of Iran, which will finally crush us. Just you guys' stupid "All Or Nothing at All" mentality.
If only we really could learn through the worlds history. My big concern is even though we should take our lessons from Afghanistan and, apply them to a potentially even more volatile situation which could be Iran, we will not. Afghanistan itself has offered enough historical evidence of what awaits an invading force (the British and the Russian). Yet the lessons were not learned and appreciated. Why should this be any different, especially as the strategic evidence has not been as clearly played out here in the past?
Just a thought, not necessarily a good one.
No it's not Morton, but sadly I think you are right. But I feel so strongly, we have to hold the Democrats responsible for their participation in this war-mongering position we find ourselves in. It is not helpful for Thom to speak for three hours every day and not acknowledge the Democrats' participation in the destruction of the Middle East. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat isn't she? She's called "The Angel of Death" in the Middle East. THAT is not the Democratic Party I was a part of. We have to stop the war-mongering, and I don't care who is doing it. The dead children don't care whether it's a Republican drone or a Democrat drone. They are still dead aren't they? This administration will not stop the warring, this president is, in fact, taking us into the continent of Africa. Who would have thought?
Remember, Bill Clinton's Sec. of State admitted on national news, that the death of half a million Iraqi children under the age of five had died as a result of Bill Clintons's draconian measures, she paused and said "yes, we think it was worth it". So tell me why I should vote Democrat again? Look what this Dem. president has taken us now. He spoke today and said he won't change his plan for Afghanistan. Two more years at least. Why? I am NOT a rightie, I am so far left it's painful for those around me. Try again. I won't vote to support this broken system. I'll vote whichever third party, which seems to be the Justice Party at this point, no more support to the national Dem. party, they no longer, at any level, represent my progressive views.
Release the dogs of war?!? Dude, they're already out there; they've formed a roving wild pack, looking for a battlefield to attack the peace loving creatures. The only way to stop these dogs is to hunt them down and blow their brains out.
As for the American soldier who shot and killed all those innocent people...he should be turned over to the Afghan "authorities" and subjected to whatever form of "justice" they choose to mete out.
We need to abandon the middle east...their problems are just too complex for any outsider to solve. They need to solve their problems themselves or self-destruct.
Clarissa, we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. But I have to say, Obama is doing things that horrify me, and I cannot, try as I do, get past his public position, that he has the right to assassinate any US citizen anytime, anywhere and any way he sees fit without a shred of due process. How does that seperate him from a Don in the Mafia? Tell me what the difference is? The Mafia Don is protecting his interests, right? That is what Obama told us he was doing. That Democrats are accepting this simply horrifies me. By ignoring his base, which Obama has done form the git-go, he has put this nation in jeopardy of losing the next election to the very right. And the Dems won't have Al Gore to blame for this one. I think it's going to turn out badly for those of us who believe in the rule of law.
stecoop01, I also want to say, Obama already said today he won't allow this trooper to be tried in Afghan. Of course he said that, we don't prosecute OUR war criminals. But I feel so strongly, this trooper was serving his fourth tour of duty, three in Iraq and this one in Afghan. He also suffered TBI from a roll over accident. But Obama's army sent him on another tour. These troops are as much a victim as the innocents he murdered.
"When the President does it, it's not illegal" I NEVER believed a Democrat would prove it. Never.
I agree.But this government knew it all along.
The unhinged minds that committed this senseless atrocity are a bitter reminder of the senselessness of occupation and war for profit. I find it equally disturbing that ONLY 60% believe the war is not worth fighting. No false virtue can conceal the inhumanity and cruelty innocent civilians suffer in order that a few more war billionaires are created. These same 1%ers will do their damndest to get us into Iran despite the crippling maddness of it all. Didn't the Romans among others already prove that endless war ends empire?
I agree with a lot of what Oldcrone says...Obama has been a total failure as a true representative of the people who voted for him. But, I think there are lots of things that many people don't know about, or will accept about our true criminal-run system...especially since the assassination of JFK. But I also agree with a lot of what Clarissa Smith says and her concerns. We just can't have another Republican in office. No matter how ticked off we are about the Democrats...it is imperative that we keep the Republicans out.
Even those currently in power who have wanted, or tried, to steer America down a truly democratic system know that it is not going to happen without a massive destruction of the current power elite system that manipulates and controls through, largely, covert means. And if they can't do it by covert means, they will resort to overt means...as in the case of JFK and others. Anyone who has been listening to the Black Op Radio show knows what I mean.
Many of our politicians know that if they don't play their master's game and try to change things that, without massive support from citizens who question the very fabric of authority, and are willing to massively revolt, they will go down one way or another. The old "carpet of gold, or a carpet of bombs" (or at least a couple of bullets) reality.
JFK went down, and so did many others who tried to challenge the monied and corrupt powers. The Republican party is largely the vanguard of supporting these criminals. And the Democrats, if not greedily and actively complicit themselves, are spineless worms who won't put up a fight. But then again....they know that those who control what Americans think will continue to use them as useful idiots and pawns in their own subjugation and eventual demise. They cannot fight, successfully, against such powers when the people keep believing in the "official" propaganda.
Although approval of our government, overall ...Republicans and Democrats.....are at an all time low...some where in the teens.... they still are convinced that rather than it being a sinister and criminal entity...it is just a clumsy and obtuse, fumbling, error-prone entity. Like 911...people are more willing to believe that the attacks happened because of some communications errors and interagency walls of egos and rivalry. They are prone to believe in some evil terrorists who happen to be Muslim...rather than a sinister traitorous force that holds the bible in one hand and lambasts all heathens with the other.
It really won't matter who is elected President because they will continue to be merely window dressing...a facade of an illusion of democracy. Obama may really want to do the right things....I don't know...but whether he was indoctrinated and warned by the real ruling powers to play the game they want him to play...or he would meet the same fate as JFK...or if Obama is a most willing beguiler and opportunist of the people who voted for him...just don't know. But re-electing Obama will not change the game that the ruling elite is demanding.
But, I may yet vote for Obama because I hate Republicans and want them to suffer for their epitome of greed and disgust. The system is rigged for either a Republican or a Democrat...unfortunately...and as much as I'd like to see a Green...any party far to the left as we can get...elected...I don't think they have a chance. I believe that those who are concerned that if we abandon the Democrat party, the Republicans could win it. That I'd really hate to see!
Even though I believe that Obama is not much different from the Republicans...he is still hated by those who I hate the most. Real change will only come when the American people can somehow amass and take back the country...and that won't come through the polls because the election system is corrupt. But let's get Obama re-elected...just to tick off those snot-nosed Republicans. Who knows, Obama may just change course and represent the people who voted for him. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Whistleblowers or Leakers? More Gobbledegook double talk by Big Brother that is an attempt to scare Whistleblowers everywhere.
"The fact remains that the Obama Administration is engaged in an unprecedented war against whistleblowers and the 1st Amendment and using the Espionage Act (a World War I era statute designed to go after spies and not whistleblowers), as a bludgeon to target, investigate, prosecute and indict those revealing government war crimes, abuses of power, illegalities and wrongdoing - both within and without the government."
"Going after whistleblowers sends the most chilling of messages by the government - we will hammer you and hammer you good if you speak up or out against us, even when we violate the Constitution - whether it's illegal electronic surveillance or torture or other crimes and wrongdoing we want to conceal behind the fig leaf of classification, while subverting and sabotaging the Constitution in the name of national security."
And although it is the "Obama administration" doing this....just how much is Obama really behind it all? Again, I believe that the President, no matter who he/she is, is just the facade of a covert government that is extremely fascist.
On Obama's Attorney General Holder's recent support of the Administrations new policies on assassinating anyone they want including Americans, even if they are in America: From Salon's Glen Greenwald's article:
"What’s so striking is how identical Obama officials and their defenders sound when compared to the right-wing legal theorists who justified Bush’s most controversial programs. Even the core justifying slogans are the same: we are at War; the Battlefield is everywhere; Presidents have the right to spy on, detain and kill combatants without court permission; the Executive Branch is the sole organ for war and no courts can interfere in the President’s decisions, etc. I spent years writing about and refuting those legal theories and they are identical to what we hear now. Just consider how similar the two factions sound to one another."
But the question I have is...is it Obama or is Obama basically the figurehead that has to go along with the dictates of those who control both Republican and Democrats? Does it really matter who is President if the President is just the smoke-and-mirrors facade...just an ornamental diversion? Or is Obama really the insidious driving force behind the horrible and terrifying death-knell of Democracy, personal liberty and freedom in America. I suspect it is the former.
Okay, if I'm totally frank: Anybody who eats meat is a monster. So what? I have to live with monsters, that's reality!
Politically I have given up on:
(1) Green Enery Issues
(2) War and Peace Issues
Why? Because I've seen the average American is a monster. They're selfish, they want their comfort, they're not ready to give up anything, and they don't care much for the environment.
Directly after 9/11: who in America felt like not going to war? It's simply not true that President Obama is a war-loving leader of a peace-loving people. Most of those who talk about peace now are LIARS. You're figuring sounds at least darn childish.
The truth is, many in the world out there think we Americans generally are evil -- not just our President, the Democrats or Republicans, but also you and I.
I say, most humans are selfish ignorants anyway. If you want to better this world: don't buy meat and don't eat meat. This is an easy way to do your little good deed against the killing and murdering in the world. Just do that. Normally I don't try to convert people to vegetarians, but you just annoyed me too much. You can't get into Afghanistan because you like the idea and then suddenly wanna get out because you don't like it anymore. Global politics cannot be driven by childish petulance. Global decisions are made on much longer terms than national decisions. Any President is NOT free to change all this as you would like it.
The way you reason is: "Okay, I tried to get out of the parking space.... first touched the car in front of me, than behind -- I guess I'll blow the whole car up."
The problems are created by your cultural beliefs ,and beliefs create behaviors and cause them to be endlessly repeated.If you want the world to change we need to start with what is causing all the unnecessary suffering and conflict,s and that is a spiritual problem our spiritual arrogance has caused and is causing our greatest sorrow to our species ,will we acknowledge this truth.
We have the blind leading the blind causing the same problems to surface century upon century and for millenia.lets transcend our mixed up beliefs and heal our MINDS as evolving civilizations this is key to humanity,s wonderful future.
You know what one mirror said to the other mirror? Its all done with people.
namaste .....WE ARE ALL ONE
Anyone interested in what really goes on in war should rent the "Winter Soldier" DVD.
Soldiers are conditioned to demonize "the other" and kill them. War atrocities are the norm.
Well, they, the drum-bangers, can go to war with Iran if they raise an entirely new army via the draft of their ranks, in which all current military is exempt and they offer up THEIR children for service and they foot the ENTIRE bill, including rebuilding. That should be the deal. The monied and powerful want to invade another country for oil, they should make the entire sacrifice and should take the entire blame and wrath when innocent Iranians are killed in the crossfire. Why should the commoners pay, in lives and treasure, for the monied's selfish gains?
War is insane. Started by insane people who train others to do insane things. And no! It is not justified!!! The culpability rises to the very top of our structure as a country. In other words...the buck stops at the top....and with the people who continue to let these top people off the hook. And as such, the top brass including the politicians that voted for war, including the President are all guilty of war crimes and if anyone should be prosecuted it is those people who make the top decisions.
These soldiers are trained by insane leaders to warp reality so that the soldiers can commit murder without guilt. The propaganda these soldiers are fed sets them up to eventually suffer the psychological consequences of their murderous actions. It is our government who, once they latch onto a soldier for duty in this insanity, keeps sending them back into the war for repeated duties..when they really need professional psychological help and a cessation of reassignments to the conditions that created the psychological problems to begin with.
It is our government, along with all those MIC businesses, and all those Americans who have invested (and who profit) their money in such MIC business entities, and those Americans who support the war mongers who are responsible for such atrocities as occurs in war zones when troops finally flip out.
If individual Americans are not totally against these wars, then they are part of the reason why atrocities are committed and innocent civilians and children get murdered. If more Americans would have been less gullible and amenable to the propaganda, after 911, and made it very well known that the Bush Administration was completely dishonest in all the lies they told us, then we wouldn't be having these soldiers flipping out and committing war crimes.
But, most Americans, it seems, bought the lies...including that 911 was done all by some Muslim terrorists. We need to hold these damn lying politicians' feet to the fire of truth and make them accountable for the atrocities that are committed. We need to start right now...hold the Obama administration responsible for continuing the Bush administration's war crimes and lies that they told us. We cannot let Obama get away with continuing Bush's war crimes.
It is not enough to hear Obama apologizing for what happened in Afghanistan...which was just one of many...and only the latest. Words are cheap...actions speak louder than words of crocodile teared apologies.
We don't want any more idiotic lies about why we should be over there...we need to get out NOW...and not a promise of a few years from now. NOW!!! We always do this....it was the same old crap in Vietnam...always they said "Oh, we can't leave now...we have to stay long enough so that the country can stabilize and control themselves." This is all total BS!! GET OUT NOW, OBAMA!!! GET OUT NOW!
STOP COMMITTING WAR CRIMES AGAINST INNOCENT CIVILIANS. THERE ARE NO ALQAIDA OR TALIBAN THAT ARE A THREAT TO THE US..IT'S TOTAL BS....AND YOU KNOW IT!
And now that massive tornadoes created all that damage in Illinois and Ohio....FEMA won't even help them out like they were designed to do in the first place. Man, our country has really sunk to it's lowest. The very reason we pay our taxes is so that the government can protect us and help us out during a massive emergency. But our government, rather than helping out it's citizens in disasters like Katrina, and now, the tornadoes, it wants to run and hide and shirk their responsibilities. And they have no problem bailing out Wall Street Ponzi schemers and Crooked Banksters and wasting tons of money on some illegal and immoral war. We are living in a criminal empire where the few wealthy elite runs rough-shod over the masses. It is time for the masses to massively rebel!!!
Well you can just blame it on Al Gore --- again.When a party ignores it's base, they will, once again throw another election because it does not matter which party controls anything, the agenda grinds forward, blame Gore, Blame progressives who don't agree with Obama's corporate party and call them crazy or insane and selfish?
Progressives have to stop supporting this broken/criminal political system by voting within it. It's hard to do, but to continue to play their game you do nothing to change it. Nothing. And continual harping about the right isn't helping either. OUR problems are on the Democrat side, start holding YOUR side responsible as participants or they will never stop moving to the right.
Thom, if George Bush had done what Obama is doing with his targeted/lawless killing of his own people, what would you have said? Truthfully? You'd think that was just fine? That the POTUS murdered OBL with no due process brought crowing from you Thom. NO DUE PROCESS MURDER and you thumped your chest in agreement. You lost me as a regular leader on that one. At least Eisenhower knew to follow the rule of law. Obama threw it all out the window and nary a whisper from Thom, but a cheer.
Quote Oldcrone:...Blame progressives who don't agree with Obama's corporate party and call them crazy or insane and selfish?...To me you sound like a hysterical toddler. Stomping your little feet, just to get your way. You don't have these problems just with the Democratic Party -- you pretty much have them everywhere. Whatever goes wrong, you blame it on the other side. In whatever progressive party you would have the same problems again, because wherever you work with fellow humans you have to act in a way so they can trust you. Otherwise they will distrust you. That's not just so in a political party, it is generally human. Diplomacy and solidarity is important in life and you have to compromise a lot. I think, these are all things you didn't understand yet. You're just the guy who always feels like he's right and the others are wrong.
If you talk like "...if George Bush had done what Obama is doing...", you make yourself automatically a target, because this sounds like right-wing-nut-job. That's why I attacked you at once. Because I considered you a Republican spy, trying to confuse. And still I'm not sure, whether you are or not.... I think you're just revolting and you want your way. The rest looks like fake to me. I don't think you really believe what you'e raving about. I think you're not the type who is very much concerned about any fellow human. You're just fussing, but it doesn't mean anything. Or briefly: I don't believe you.
"That's why I attacked you at once. Because I considered you a Republican spy, trying to confus."
I came here to discuss these critical issues, not thinking a "Progressive" site would have their dogs out to "attack" anyone who disagrees with them. How "preciously Progressive" of you. Is your job on here to "attack" new posters who took the time to get here? Is this the way Thom runs his business? I didn't realize it was only open to those that agree lock stock and barrel. And the rest you "attack" and run them off? Once again sadly, how progressive of you.
I'm certainly not from the right Sweetie, but so far to the left you don't recognize it.And I was fighting this fight before you were born, so it is a tad insulting to be so flippently "attacked" on the ubber-progressive - NOT site.
But Thom is running his show like only one of the two faux parties is guilty of anything. The Democrat party is in danger because of their leadership, period. "Oh we really want to, or I love this one "make me do it". No Obama, I did my job, now I'm waiting for you to do yours, anything but roll over and give the right all it wants. See how it works? They both profit, and the nation is not governed.
I'm am NOT working for Thom. We just get the most radical right-wingers at times. Of course I attack them! Politics without fight wasn't invented yet -- if you're so experienced you should know that. I attack libertarians AT ONCE, even if they call themselves "progressive", like those crazy Ron Paul fans. You haven't by any chance realized we've been drowning for years, and who knows how it might end in November..... who knows what's going to happen until then?
As I said in the new thread : your communication is not clear, it's very confusing. Stop using GOP phrases, in this tough campaign year. I think very much like Ed Schultz : "This is war".... with words, but war. Since when don't Americans fight for their country???
I think this is all small snippets of the big picture...we only hear about those things that surface...like the 5 women, 4 children, and one man that were handcuffed and shot in their heads. Wait till this starts happening right here in America when they saturate our skies with these armed drones. When we do hear about some of these things...like the 16 women and children murdered during a "killing spree" by a soldier or soldiers now portrayed as being deranged "lone gunmen"...(.not sanctioned, of course, by the top brass...plausible deniability, right?)..but who will take the fall for a murderous policy that goes right up to the President. We need to hold the top brass and President accountable for these war crimes.
I am still waiting for the Garani Massacre video to be released by Wikileaks....Garani, Afghanistan where over a hundred civilians were massacred...many (about 80) were children.