Daily Topics - Wednesday March 21st, 2012

Catch The Thom Hartmann Program LIVE at our new time, 3-6pm Eastern!

Hour One: What is the nature of community?

Hour Two: Bomb Iran...Romney wins

Hour Three: Obamacare vs. The Pipes Plan - Sally Pipes, Pacific Research Institute / Plus, how Obamacare is helping - Ron Pollock, Families USA

Comments

Corinne Spangler's picture
Corinne Spangler 14 years 4 weeks ago
#1

I don't know about others but I don't think the post office will have anything to worry about now thanks to the NSA. Would you want the NSA reading your love letters, private thoughts to friends, or your dissent well don't email it send it the private federally protected old fashion way by putting it in an envelope and mailing it.
Peace, love, and granola

Maxrot's picture
Maxrot 14 years 4 weeks ago
#2

Sometimes when societies (as with individuals) hit rock bottom, instead of coming together they tear themselves apart. I'm not so certain the American society is poised to come together in a peaceful and evolutionary movement if it bottoms out. So many have been spoon fed the dictums of me first, us against them, government is bad big government is worse etc, etc... I think there is a better then 50% chance of violent actions by the common man... which plays well into the hands of those who wish to enact and enforce even more limits to civil liberties to the point where the existence of them will be a farce.

As the song goes... "You say you want a revolution well you know we all want to change the world, you say that is evolution well you know.... but when you talk about destruction don't you know you can count me out"

Revolutions almost never end up well, and generally end up with a different elite in charge and bleaker social conditions. I wouldn't bet on the success of one.

N

Maxrot's picture
Maxrot 14 years 4 weeks ago
#3

A sudden rise in oil prices would have serious consequences. As a prince from Saudi Arabia said last year, they want to keep the prices at somewhere between $2.50 and $3.00 per gallon so that America doesn't actually develop alternative energies.

So what happens if we start a war with Iran and it raises the price of gas, and Obama is forced to actually enact alternative energy development by public sentiment?

Obama should either start the war with Iran ASAP so he can get actual alternative energy development started by summer, or he better hope he can at least hold it off until the end of October. Kind of cynical I know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the current administration hasn't considered it.

On the other side of it, Obama can just grow a backbone, and do everything he can to start pushing alternative green energy now so he can both ween America off fossil fuels and provide a slue of jobs. Its the only sensible and humanitarian thing he can do... not holding my breath for it though.

N

Maxrot's picture
Maxrot 14 years 4 weeks ago
#4

Would increase the sales of electric cars too... maybe to the point where production will have to increase here in America to keep up with imports. Hope the Republicans have taken in account the law of unintended consequences. They keep going back to the same well never expecting it to run dry.

N

mathboy's picture
mathboy 14 years 4 weeks ago
#5

I was taught that the (small-L) libertarian principle is that you have the right to do what you want unless it interferes with someone else's more basic rights. Our society was based on that, but not constitutionally. That also doesn't prevent the government from acting in the public interest, because providing something doesn't interfere with others' rights (something modern libertarians don't seem to understand).

On top of this, I apply what I call the liberal principle: When you have the power to help, you have the moral duty to help. And since the government has that power, it has that duty.

Maxrot's picture
Maxrot 14 years 4 weeks ago
#6

Watch Adam Curtis' documentary The Trap if you want to see one of the major reason's Brittan's medical care is messed up. Has a lot to do with the government implementing quotas for bureaucrats and the bureaucrats finding cleaver ways of meeting those numbers by falsifying or re-classifying the data.

N

mathboy's picture
mathboy 14 years 4 weeks ago
#7

Limnophiliously ugly = Pond-lovingly ugly. Um, okay.

PixelPusher's picture
PixelPusher 14 years 4 weeks ago
#8

No mention of the Rally For Reason (www.reasonrally.com). It happens in DC on Saturday.

Rick in Canadia's picture
Rick in Canadia 14 years 4 weeks ago
#9

Happy Canadian here.

Sally the Canadian is about as honest as Joe the plumber.

My parents were not well off.. paid down a house over 30 years.. each was at times in hospital for extended periods of time; very good treatment, immediate when required and yes, a few month's wait for something like a hip replacement.. The key is, through all this, when they would have certainly been dropped or otherwise screwed by an insurance company, they never had the threat of losing their house or savings.

How much is that peace of mind worth? How much healthier are we without the stress of wondering if our coverage might be used up or otherwise lost?

No, if there was real dissatisfaction we would hear of it constantly. Our provincial governments brag at election time about reducing wait times.. even Conservative governments. It just plain works and costs us less too.

Rick

MaryMary's picture
MaryMary 14 years 4 weeks ago
#10

Well Rick,

I found Sally's experience with Health Insurance BC similar to my own. In which Provience do you live? In Ontario, the waiting period for a heart by-pass is between 12 to 18 months, plus if you're 75 or older, you will not have it. Doctors in Ontario are not accepting new patients. If you don't have a doctor, you're forced to go to a clinic. Many of the folks I worked with went to Buffalo when they needed immediate attention, for MRI's, e-rays, etc. There is no assistance with perscription drugs, nor is dental covered, unless the patient has supplemental insurance through there employer. You are being less then honest. If you want to engage in a dialog, respond to my post. If you want to continue your disception, ignore it. The choice is yours.

Rick in Canadia's picture
Rick in Canadia 14 years 4 weeks ago
#11

Hi Mary,

Not saying you are engaging in disception (sic), but I stand by my description of my own and my parents' experience.

Wait time for a heart bypass? Can't say for sure. When my mother was in distress, she was operated on immediately. My dad was 77 and there was no question of an age limit. Where did you get those numbers? I realize we now have Sun / Fox news Canada..

Myself, I have a doctor (Ontario) and was referred to and seen by a cardiologist within a week or two last year. Not everyone has a GP but there are some accepting patients all the time. I have seen that first hand

Main question; How would you have it? Would we be better with the US system? Is there any reason we wouldn't end up paying just as much without the guarantees we have now? Is our system perfect? Of course not. It does provide the necessary services and yes it might not always be as fast as you might like, but compared to the US or UK systems, I think it is a reasonable balance.

I honestly believe that my parents would have lost their house and savings if we had been under the american system. When I need to see a doctor, routine or emergency, it is my health that is on my mind, not my ability to pay or take on debt.

You are of course free to take out private insurance for dental and prescriptions. Seniors do get drugs essentially free as i understand.

Don't call me dishonest because you disagree or have been given other information. A dialog can allow us to be better informed.

Rick

Rick in Canadia's picture
Rick in Canadia 14 years 4 weeks ago
#12

Mary,

Just looked it up;

http://www.waittimes.net/Surgerydi/en/PublicMain.aspx?View=0&Type=0

Shows 9 out of ten bypass surgeries within 44 days. Perfect? No, but my point was still the better system. No way I would choose the US system. Where did your 18 month figure come from? There will always be extremes.

Cheers,

Rick

MaryMary's picture
MaryMary 14 years 4 weeks ago
#13

My father, discovered he had blockage in 4 of the five artries in his heart at age 81. The very next day, he had by-pass surgery in St Joseph's hospital in Towson, MD. The procedure was almost entirely covered by his insurance. He did have to pay a few hundred dollars. My father was not a rich man, he died a few years ago at age 90. My mother age 92 is still with us, and is receiving outstanding medical care in the US.

My source for the 12-18 month wait time for by-pass surgery came from a 48 year old gentleman waiting for a by-pass in Toronto. He told me he was scheduled for his by-pass in 12 months, and had been scheduled for 2, for a total wait time of 14 months. He also told me the wait time was pretty normal. This was in 2002, when I lived in Toronto. Hopefully this has improved under Stephan Harper.

As you know, the system in Canada is not a health care system, but a wellness system. It works great unless you get sick.

The system is turning into a two tier system. The "have's" will be able to see a physcian, the "have nots" are relegated to the clinics. Stop in a clinic some time and you will witness all the "new" Canadians waiting for medical care, never to see the same physican twice, if they are lucky enought to see a physican, and not a physicans assistant. It's really sad.

In the US, anyone with or without insurance can have a perscription filled at Walmart. Cost is $4.00 for a 30 day supply or $10.00 for a 90 day supply. There are limitations to this program, the medicine must be available in generic form. (a great deal are, and most only pay $4.00 or $10.00). I haven't heard of seniors receiving "free" prescriptions in Canada, so I don't know if that is so. I don't know of any program in Canada to rival the one at Walmart (Costco has one as similar program). I don't believe Walmart-Canada or Costco-Canada offer these programs.

Another point, the example offered on the show by Sally, whose uncle had to spend his retirement savings for care in the US. What would be the better choice? Spend the money in the US and live, or not spend the money in Canada and die. Colon cancer untreated is always fatal.

Finally, read this article about Canada's health care from the Globe and Mail. First paragraph is: "For the first time in Canada, patients with chronic conditions – such as diabetes, high bloodpressure or heart failure – will soon be able to do one-stop shopping for all their medical needs." 16 million Canadians suffer from chronic conditions. This new clinic, the only one in all of Canada, opens on July 19, 2011. It is expected to see 75 patients a week. Here is the link to the complete article. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/new-health/health-news/patients-with-chronic-conditions-get-one-stop-care/article2070306/

Rick in Canadia's picture
Rick in Canadia 14 years 4 weeks ago
#14

Mary,

There will always be anecdotes about the extremes. Remember, the 44 day figure as an average takes in some who can reasonably wait as well as the ones, (like your father and my mother, who were treated immediately as required. I'm happy to hear that your parents were well taken care of. That is how any system should work. I am guessing he had a good pension / retirement that continued his good insurance coverage, maybe a veteran? (both countries need to treat their veterans better, no excuse there) These days that appears to be rare.

Again, no system is perfect. I am just much happier with the Canadian system, as were my parents. I don't think Steven Harper will be a savior of anything.. isn't the conservative idea in favour of 'privatization' or that 'two-tier' system?

That walmart deal sounds great. I may have to cross the border to shop ;-)

I'm wondering if that is their fee for filling medicare prescriptions. As i understand it Canadian pharmaceuticals are cheaper than the US for the same drugs. I know there are bus trips into Canada for drugs.

Anyways, we may have some different examples but I do believe 'Sally' is wildly non-representative of Canadians' experience, as per polls and data.

Cheers,

Rick

fbacher's picture
fbacher 14 years 4 weeks ago
#15

So is the right of an employer wants to outsource jobs to save money more basic than my livelyhood? (Early trade policy seems to say no.)

Is the right of a factory to belch smoke next door more basic than my health?

Is your right to defend yourself against a perceived threat more basic than my right to get skittles?

fbacher's picture
fbacher 14 years 4 weeks ago
#16

In Gunsmoke, the law of the wild west was that whoever draws first is guilty. In Florida, whoever shoots first is innocent.

MaryMary's picture
MaryMary 14 years 4 weeks ago
#17

Hi Rick,

Yes, my father did have a good pension, he was a veteran of WW II, but he never used VA services. He worked for the Government Printing Office, in Washington DC. His case was not unusual. The majority of us receive great medical care when we need it, without breaking the bank. That however, doesn't make the news. News is made by the exception, who doesn't have insurance. I believe we have the best medical care in the world, no offense, but you don't see US citizens running to Canada for medical treatment. However, a great deal of Canadians (including the Premier of Newfoundland) come to the US seeking medical treatment. As far as bus trips for Prescription drugs, I find it hard to accept. First, the generic drugs one would buy in Canada, are available at Walmart. The 6 years I lived in Canada I didn't see much difference in the price of prescription drugs in Canada compared to the US. The advantage for a US resident buying in Canada was the exchange rate. At that time, (2000-2006) The Looney was from .60 to .80 to the US dollar. So it wasn't just meds that were cheaper, everything was cheaper in Canada.

Let me give you one more anecdotal story. I've visited every Provience in Canada with the exception of Prince Edward Island. Each Provience has it's own medical system, much like HMO's here in the USA. During a trip to BC, I experieced a swollen leg. A friend in BC sent me to her doctor. The doctor would not see me, and instructed me to go to the emergency room. I did not have an OHIP card, I had to pay $300.00 before I could be seen by a doctor. I paid the money, had some tests, and lucky for me, the swelling in my leg was from sitting for a log time on the flight to BC. The $300 fee shocked me. In the US, a non citizen without insurance who goes to the emergency room is not asked to pay upfront, he is treated.

It's good chating with you. Where do you live? When I lived in Toronto, I lived in the Manulife Building for a few years, and for a few years in Rosedale. I traveled the Country extensively. I really enjoy Canada, love the People, but I do feel we have a better medical system.

Blue Skies,

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