Time to pull a Saigon – and just get the hell out of there!
After a U.S. soldier snapped, and massacred 16 Afghan civilians – including nine children – Afghan President Hamid Karzai called for all NATO troops to be pulled out of rural areas. That could throw a wrench in the US exit strategy, which depends on handing Afghanistan over to NATO and Afghan Security Forces by 2014.
Another blow to the US exit strategy came when the Taliban suspend negotiations with US diplomats. In order to end the civil war in Afghanistan – a power-sharing deal with the Taliban must be worked out – but Taliban leaders walked away from the table, claiming that the US keeps changing the terms of the negotiations.
Clearly – after a decade of war – the Afghans want us out of their country. And recent polls show that the American people – who are watching this nation go bankrupt from war and our young soldiers deteriorate mentally and physically – want the war to end as well. In fact – 50% of Americans want the United States to speed up its withdrawal from Afghanistan. Time to pull a Saigon – and just get the hell out of there.
Comments
In response to the soldier that went on a shooting spree. As well as the other atrocities that have been committed by American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is no surprise to me that they happened. The surprise is, and it is a great tribute to the men and women of our armed forces, that there isn't more of it. We teach our children about fair play. We teach them, "Love thy neighbor." We teach them to protect the weak and lift up the poor. We teach them, "Thou shalt not kill."
Then we take these same children, barely out of adolescence, we teach them that certain people are "THE ENEMY." They are not people. They deserve to be killed and we teach them the most efficient way to kill them. We send them to places where there is no clear enemy. Where they can't tell the innocents from those who attack them. Even women and children will strap on a bomb or shoot from hiding. Day after day they patrol to protect people who want them gone. Their enemy appears to have no sense of honor or fairness. Day after day they see their friends, bunkmates, brothers-in-arms killed or maimed. Even in their camps and compounds where there should be some safety, some respite, they live in danger of attack. There has been much talk of the cost of war. This a price our citizens pay that I have never heard discussed. That there hasn't been more of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers engaged in wars around the globe going berserk and committing more unthinkable acts is a tribute to the courage and honor of our people in uniform. Thank you for your consideration.~;^}>
If you miss the way it used to be- then tax a millionaire, support a union, and buy American.
Thank you
i ALLWAY AGREE WITH SANITY....ANY SOLUTION SOON?
BELLSRINGER ...
The reason that the soldiers of the fascist regimes have so much trouble mentally dealing with their war experience is because they do not have a moral cause that they are fighting for. All the world observed the criminal invasion of Iraq where the scum who made the war knew they didn't have any real evidence but cavalierly figured they would find enough to use if they were able to look around on the ground. The soldiers, meaning all ranks, are aware now that they are being sent to illegal wars by a criminal organization that has usurped "democracy" and it is inevitable that when the ultimate push comes to shove that many of them will abandon their evil paymasters and join the world revolution.
If my memory is correct, we are in Afghanistan to keep the Taliban from getting the nuclear power from Pakistan.
If left to their own efforts, and with cooperation with the corrupt leaders of both countries, this nightmare could happen.
The Afghan mission should have ended in Dec. of 2001 at Tora Bora, instead, by then, President Cheney had already made Iraq's oil resources part of our energy policy. Invasion of Iraq became the focus. Oil barons and war profiteers were pissing their pants with visions of Iraqi black gold and reconstruction riches. Hell, it was also a good way to run up the federal debt and justify austerity politics, get rid of all those socialist programs and public sector jobs the vast majority benefit from, and like so much.
Afghanistan and bin Laden never were a priority under Cheney and Bush. However destruction of our economy was a priority to bin Laden, instead he got to kick back and watch banksters and vulture capitalists like Romney do the dirty work for him. We don't spend billions and kill people going after these guys??????
We need to get out now!
In the late 60s, driving my Land Rover east from Iran to India, I'd traversed Afghanistan, the southern route vis Herat and Khandahar, staying at cheap hotels or in villages, perhaps with Peace Corps Volunteers along the way. We were welcome back then.
Leaving Khabul, I was late for the last car-avan through the Khayber Pass, but talked my way past the check-post. In the twilight I paused overlooking the pass sensing the souls of soldiers, lost in battles millennia ago, as Western armies invaded East, or East invaded West. Below there were traces of railroads, bunkers, tank-traps, twisted relics of war. These resources are mined by villiagers, for their craft-industry, tools and weapons of every type.
I thought of the vast harsh, empty country behind me, it's limited undeveloped resources if any, and it's rugged tough fiercely independent people. Their thousands of years of history, along the Silk Road. Reminants of a world-class University in sleepy Herat, Islamic architecture, shot-up by the British, the huge Bamayan Bhuddhist Statues, (now destroyed by Taliban).
Why not, I mused: lease out battlegrounds to countries needing a place for war? Move innocent civilians out of the way. and when the lease was up, the combatants could declare victory and leave -- with Afghani's returning to mine the area for spent metals and munitions, as they do now.
No armies would stay for long, With thousands of years of history, Afghan has evicted more invaders then any flop-house in the US -- they know damn well how to do it. Isn't that what we have now? The US military needed a place to squander men and material, or war without-end (maybe a decade or two)? We're now being evicted. Guess like the Brits and the Russians, we've over-stayed our lease; or broken the rules.
I like your being brief here. Because this is merely about America's future. It's about our American henhouse: We got in there like hysteric chickens, now we get out like hysteric chickens.
Actually our job lately was, to help organizing Afghan policy, armed forces, police ect. -- this idea wasn't all that bad. It would have been even more chicken-like if we went in there and then soon rushed out again, to leave it to the Taliban once more. Extremely ineffectual muppetism.
If American muppets now wake up, to vote decent Senators and Representatives into Congress in November, we're going to have nothing to complain anymore. Just imagine a plain progressive Congress, making dozens of laws against corporate interest. And of course they won't forget this : empowering Congress as the only institution that is able to declare war -- as it once was.
Please consider this ya'll : if you people are real, intelligent progressives, you won't complain much about the President. Please discuss CONGRESS! We are not a monarchy, or presidentocracy -- we are a democracy, driven by Congress. We the people decide who represents us in Congress. And if we vote like muppets, we get in nothing but muppets. And an army, driven by hysteric chickens.
The war in Afghanistan can never be won because its a battle of the mind,a spiritual solution is the only solution to this situation.
Humanity desires peace but peaceful is not something you do peaceful is something you are being?
We could start by asking the Taliban some questions and help them by telling them that we can understand how they could feel that way ,that we recognize there beliefs about life and god and we would like to engage in a dialogue with them about there beliefs to see if there is more about them-and about other beliefs in the world -for you both to learn.
Even people who are doing horrible things will stop doing them ,if only for a moment,if you ask them WHY THEY ARE DOING THEM.It is not the basic nature of humans to be horrible ,loving is our basic nature,when humans are being horrible ,it is because of something they believe .
ASK THEM even in the midst of the horror-ask them.
What hurts you so much that you feel you have to hurt me to heal it?
What a wonderful question to ask,and we must be willing to listen to the answer,it is helpful to know when someone is fighting with you ,they are usually fighting for your attention.
No nations or groups or individuals think themselves as attackers.They all think of themselves as defenders.
Nobody does anything inappropriate ,given their model of the world everybody,s point of view is valid for them,and we have to be ready to say NINE WORDS THAT COULD HEAL THE WORLD.
I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW YOU COULD FEEL THAT WAY.
You have to come from the angle that you can understand how they could come to this feeling and say to them you are not alone given your beliefs ,thoughts and feelings to come to your conclusions.
To be a healer we have to understand that it is the fear that nobody else understands the problem and not been understood leads to desperation and conversely ,the feeling that someone else understands moves people back from the brink and opens the door for discussion.
All attack is seen by the attacker as a defense.Understanding this is the basis of all healing.
We are all one
"Please consider this ya'll : if you people are real, intelligent progressives, you won't complain much about the President."
BS !!
That ma'am is NOT going to change this broken system. Stop telling posters not to "complain" about the Democrat party?d Electing all progressives? THAT ma'am is what I thought I was getting when I voted for Obama. Yes, I'm one of those fools who believed what he told me. Remember? I'll not run cover for ANY candidate, that will change nothing. The Dem. leadership, including Obama will NEVER allow your dream of electing progressives. Haven't you learned yet? They are ALL complicent in the destruction of a functioning government. NO ONE is governing our beloved nation. NO ONE except perhaps Bernie Sanders. By telling others to shut up you play your role in the crumbling of any democrative principles left.
You put things in my mouth I never said. I never said "shut up". At times I criticize pretty harsh, but I never said "shut up". I'm pretty frank, and now I frankly have the feeling, it's not possible to have a founded discussion with you.
You don't even get what you quoted: I recommended to the folks, to judge the Democrats mainly by the Democratic Congress team. Because Congress is making the laws and not the President. Congress has the actual power in our nation. So we should above all criticize the Democratic Congress team, if we're not satified. Ron Paul's fans will probably never get that: Even IF Paul was a decent guy, his presidency would be a major threat : because behind him would be a Republican Congress team.
Our job as voters is to vote in a good Congress team. Because the best President in the world cannot make good policy without being backed by a constructive Congress. Even Karl Marx couldn't do anything else but Republican policy, if he was dominated by a Republican majority in Congress -- or he wouldn't govern at all.
Which means : after all the President is not as powerful and important as most Americans think.
"Their enemy appears to have no sense of honor or fairness. Day after day they see their friends, bunkmates, brothers-in-arms killed or maimed."
I agree with some of what you say but consider what you have just said....they "have no sense of honor or fairness"?
Excuse me but what the heck do you think THEY are up against? A powerful and well armed army with all the latest high tech kill gadgets that make it a lot more probable that "the enemy" will be killed...along with all his family members...wives and children...brothers and sisters...rather than the well armed soldier.
A lot of times some of these soldiers are just aiming cursors on a computer screen and pushing buttons and they are murdering innocent civilians while there is very little danger to them. Yes, other soldiers have to patrol the streets which is a lot more dangerous for sure. But, again, we are over there, having illegally and immorally invaded another sovereign country, occupying their homeland, and forcing our will upon the people.
It is not, of course, the fault of the soldiers (unless they are there willingly and get a thrill out of killing or believing all the BS about "defending Liberty, Democracy, or retribution for 911...or any other nonsense)..but it is the fault of all of the damn politicians and the MIC and everyone else that are profiting off of this blood money...and let's include the American people who don't even see the idiotic fallacy of the lies that we are there for ...any reasons less than committing war crimes for power and profit. WE are the aggressors no less evil than Hitler and his myopic idolizing German citizens who raise their hands to shout seig heil! So, as Hitler thought he'd spread his power around the world...so is the United States of America toward this endeavor also.
But the US no longer has any respect from any other country....because the US has shown how seethingly two-timing, underhanded, and murderous it can be. All it has is an immense military to frighten and coerce other nations to bend to their will. The miserable and lecherous cockroaches who have connived to squeeze the system of manufacturing greatness we once had into a casino economy backed by a death-machine are running the show and they have managed to keep a lot of people fooled.
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was America who had been invaded by an overwhelming techologically superior force, and occupied, would Americans not do what ever they could to fight back. Would they not "fight dirty"? I imagine that that superior force would also be getting their people to believe that those filthy ragtag Americans were terrorists who "don't fight honorably or be fair".
In fact, this has already happened way back in our history....when the colonists had to resort to "unhonorable and unfair" terrorist tactics against the British (which is what the British called our refusal to continue to fight by standing put and aiming). Where would we be without the same kind of fighting tactics that the Iraqis...the Afghanis...have to use to fight us in their lands? Yes, it is very shameful what we have done over there...not honorable at all...and it is very unfortunate...just as it was unfortunate for all of the German Soldiers or the Japanese Soldiers who died for their stupid criminal ruling elites...but our soldiers have died in vain..died for a disgusting excuse for a country that is ruled and controlled by corrupt and greedy men. And many of the American citizens are just as fooled as were the Germans and Japanese citizens during WWII.
All these technological weapons of spying and killing are only being successfully tried out and tested in the Middle East lab...on other people....soon, they will be used against Americans by the same ruling elite forces that are killing other people. As our economy continues to destroyed..and people continue to suffer and see that our real enemies are not in the Middle East...they are the ruling elite. As Mr. Smith, formerly of Goldman Sachs, has enlightened us all recently, they think we're all a bunch of muppets to be robbed blind. And when the people finally try to strike back....these criminals will call out the drones...the ones armed with Tomahawk missiles. We won't be any better than Syria. Obama, or whoever the puppet is in the Presidency, will be just like Assad of Syria and many people will be hurt. They already have demonstrated this by having police attack peaceful demonstrators. If the demonstrators get more "out of hand" what do you thing will happen? But, unless it does, things will not change. No election is going to change things...that's for sure.
Ya-but . . . . Whadabout the pipelines?
It's argued, that one of the main reasons "we" - or rather "our troops and treasure" were used, invading that desolate region was:
With Iran in the way, the eastern route for Caspian-Oil and Gas to China, India and/or warm-water, lies east of Iran, through Afghanistan's southern Kundahar Province, and Pakistan's western Baluchistan Province to the Port of Gwadar and the Arabian Sea. This is the relatively lawless smuggler's route for opium out and guns back in. It's what Russia wanted when it invaded and occupied Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Are we gonna, -- -- excuse-me; Are our Western-Oil clients gonna just leave that pipeline to the Iranian-Russian-Chinese who want east-Caspian Oil and Gas for themselves??? -- After "we" have blown a few billion-bucks for "our" Big-Oil Buddies? Are "we" gonna continue to take care of their interests .. .. .. after all, they still own our government. Right? DailyKos, 2/19/09 Afghan War for Pipeline
And then there's "The Terrorists", who might get control of Pakistan's Nuclear defenses against India's Nuclear defenses against Pakistan's Nuclear . . . . We can't have that !!! And, the local people, Taliban, Warlords and others -- these ancient cultures can't be allowed to interfere with progress, or World access to World Energy Reserves.
This entire oil-rich area has been fought over by international powers since oil became critical for energy in the early 1900s (WW-I). It's been the Russians, The Brits, the Germans, The French, and (since WW-II) the Americans, back and forth, now the Chinese and Indians will be getting involved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Global_Carbon_Emissions.svg
It ain't easy; and it ain't over til it's over -- which ain't gonna happen any-time soon.
_
"...we are in Afghanistan to keep the Taliban from getting the nuclear power from Pakistan."
Yeah, sure, like bring back the "mushroom cloud" disinformation of the Bush Administration. The two craziest nations in the world right now already are armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons...the US and Israel. And the "Taliban" (which means "student" in Arabic) and Al Qaida (which means "the base" in Arabic) have been so demonized by the west that people believe they are crazier than we are...and we have enough nukes to make the planet a burned out cinder many times over. And we have already used them to kill masses of people...so who is really the crazy ones here? And, not only that, but there really are very few Taliban or Al Qaida left. Of course, that doesn't keep our propagandists from calling Iraqis, Afghanis, or Pakistanis who are trying to defend their countries, Taliban or Al Qaida.
"War is a racket"...so said General Smedley Butler ....and very little of what you hear the war mongers says is truth. We have more enemies now than we ever had...and it's not Al Qaida or Taliban...it is everyone else in the world who sees through the lies and atrocities of the bully boy war mongers in the US....the ones who lied us into this terrible death machine..the purveyors of blood money....and the ignorant and stupid believers in the propaganda told by these war criminals.
Do you really think it is about "fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them here"? What it really is all about is creating enemies so that the military industrial complex and politicians can continue to keep us very afraid and bilk us out of our taxes. It's about trying to bully the rest of the world and taking control and resources. And that is what Hitler wanted as well. At least Hitler had to experience the horrors of WWI and the terrible oppression brought about in crushing reparations meted out by arrogant powers...and against those who were playing some of the same games back then in the banking system. The US has not had such history...they only have greedy connivers who, from the early history of dirty tricks against the Indians, to today's false flag operations, illegal wars, and atrocities.
And if "this nightmare could happen" it is only because we slaughtered hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of their people in a stupid crusade. Yes, crusade...Bush made a slip of the tongue...but I'm sure he meant just that. Sometimes, I think we have never left the Middle Ages or left behind those ignorant religious belief systems that have been responsible for millions of tortures and deaths.
I think it is true that the "President is not as powerful as most Americans think". And I think that our Congress is not as powerful as most Americans think. The real power is the monied interests that control them. And it doesn't really matter whether they are Republicans or Democrats. They are all controlled by the monied interests.
I think the whole system is basically a facade of democracy; but, behind it is not democracy at all. In fact, I don't think it would change no matter who is in office...even Ron Paul...despite his campaign rhetoric about getting out of this illegal war...once President...he will tow the line for the monied powers. Ron Paul crows as loud as Obama did during his first campaign.
It is all a sham! Re-electing Obama, or even stacking Congress with Progressives, will not make any difference and they will all tow the line for the monied powers. These people..Republican or Democrats are playing us all for the muppets we are. We will continue casting our votes at the muppet voting machines.
But, having said that, I will most likely vote for Obama because, even though the whole thing is a sham, I want to keep the Republicans out. Maybe that is equivalent to voting for someone because he believes in God...or is more handsome that the other candidates...but that's it.
I have no hope that Obama will be any better after he is re-elected than he was during the last 3 years. He'll still be working for the monied powers and against the rest of us. But the crooked system won't be changed by voting for anyone.
It is going to take a lot more than voting...in fact, if you want to change the system, then don't even entertain the notion that voting will matter. But still....vote for Obama because he sounds more intelligent than all those other retards. Vote for him because he has a nice family...an impeccable reputation as a father and husband....he hasn't slept with any tramp that the Republicans foisted on him....he doesn't wear magic underwear...he doesn't wear his religion on his sleeve.
There are a lot of reasons why you might like the guy which, in light of our corrupt system, may be the only true reason to vote for him. You sure can't vote for him with the anticipation that he will actually side with the 99% vs the 1%. We already know where he stands (or, maybe, where he is forced to stand?), where everyone in Congress (except for a few..like Bernie Sanders) stands, and it is not for the 99%.
But, if you want to really change the system, you will have to do something, en masse, to put the hurt on those who have smugly stacked the cards against us..the ones who have rigged the system so that no matter who is in office...the ruling elite will have their boots to our necks.
Massive demonstrations...way more than just Occupy Wall Street...strikes....boycotts...and other things will change the system...hopefully for the better.
The crooked system was changed once in the past only after massive strikes, walkouts, boycotts, and demonstrations. We could do it again!
Hey all,
I'm not really sure what our interest in Afgahanastan is. All I know is I'm old enough to know that there must be something our goverment or big business wants there because thats the only reason we go to war is for power or money. Being as Afgahanastan has no real resources that I know of (except the largest supply of poppy plants in the world) it must be something our goverment wants. Perhaps it's just to have bases to run covert missions from so we can spy on our allies and start insurgencies against our enemies. If there are any soldiers out there that would like to chime in I would love to hear from you. Thanks and good luck too us all,
Jim
$1 trillion of minerals
How about $1 trillion worth of copper, cobalt, gold, and lithium? And you don't think the US criminal overlords that control the USG..the banksters and Wall Street... aren't interested in the vast money from poppies..ie: heroin? And, of course, having bases and control of the region makes it possible to keep other countries like China, and others, in check. And, of course, there is the oil pipeline that was the initial reason why all this went down....unless, of course, they also knew about all those minerals at the time as well..and we, the public, are just now finding out about it. Maybe even the Russians knew about it before they invaded.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?_r=1&pagewa...
Pull a Saigon? How can anybody be expected to value your opinion when you use such an ignorant phrase.
You are implying that the fall of Saigon at the end of April 1975 was a result of a bums rush to the door. It's an ignorant and offensive thing to say and has no relationship to the truth.
Offensive operations by US troops had ended in January 1973 and the troop withdrawal started then. Scene you are trying to use of the helicopters picking people up from the rooftops was the final removal of US Embassy personnel from that very building.
US combat troops had been long gone by then.
So, unless you mean "pull a Saigon" to mean a planned gradual pullout of our troops, you are insulting the truth.
We went to Afghanistan because that's where Osama and his bunch were. They were there because the Taliban was the only power on earth that would allow them to be anywhere. It was worse than a lawless land, they had protected status from the Taliban. Then Bush had his village idiot adventure in Iraq and our attention was diverted from what was the righteous fight.
Our reason for being there was 2 things. 1; get them, and they are largely got. 2; Make certain they can't come back and regroup in a place that's protected and out of reach of the outside world.
That's the job that isn't complete. It would have had not Bush had to have his excuse to use his expensive shiny toys in Iraq, but it is not.
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Mueller's favorite place to pray (written about in "Prophet's Way"), and the roof of the room where the Last Supper is reputed to have happened.
Right on! Yes, we need to get the hell out..now! And then we need to concentrate on prosecuting the war criminals who started this illegal war...Bush, etal, and those gutless wonders in the Obama administration. War criminals...all!