Why is it that liberals like Thom are constantly whining about not taxing people enough. It is a never ending battle to find ways to steal other people's money so they can feed this beast called government. Tame the beast and let people be free to take care of each other.

Churches and religious organizations should have never been tax-exempt - not in this country.

time to tax the churches!!! booya!!! imagine if its bad now! what will it be like when the real religious wars begin. Welcome to the new American power struggle. kind of reminds of some 900 years ago, or maybe, just maybe of what goes on just on the other side of the globe today. 'tis odd inded, odd indeed...

Permit me to add a dissenting vote. This solution is a "baby with the bathwater" scenario. I agree that churches which engage in political activity on behalf of given candidates should lose their exemptions. I think the separation of church and state is important for both entities.

But I'm an employee of a church which does not participate in candidate support, nor will it. Were all churches to lose their exemptions, thousands of workers would lose their jobs - people who work long hours for mostly low wages ministering both to our members and our surrounding communities. At our best, we are a functioning part of the Commons. If someone needs food or gas, directions, help with a bill, money for transportation, etc., we don't stop and ask them what they believe or don't believe; we give them what they need. That's what we're about.

The loudmouthed rightwing church the media portrays is a cruel parody of Christianity; it's rightly condemned in this forum. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that's what all churches are about. Most of the churches I've served have eschewed politics and worked to take care of people who are hurting and in need.

the other night i was going to watch some good old star trek but found myself surfing and stumbled on to a movie from like 1988. i found the timing of the airing to be odd as the once united now devided states becomes ever more devicive. a truly tragic story set in Mississippi 1964 about activisim in the south. THe sheer horror of the way people treated one another, the fear mongering and bullying and inevitiably murder. The FBI "did" finally fiind the bodies and convicted, "lightly", the killers but in looking at it? 1964? today? what happened in between such that we returning to 1964? Just food for thought folks. Let religion, or a singular special interest (its bad enough that its a corpratocracy) infiltrate the government? Bet your bottom dollar times wil get a whole lot worse before they get better!

This is blatant disregard for the law as it pertains to separation of church and state and any church which participates in this should have their tax exempt status withdrawn by the I.R.S. But I highly doubt that any one church let alone the whole lot will have that done because they have too much clout in out governmenet.

If the people who work in these churches do not want to lose their jobs because the church is breaking the law then they should, as a congregation, call those leading this to back it down or lose their parisioners. If not, well it is your choice.

We, as taxpayers, are picking up the slack for what churches do not pay. It used to be that the church was where the poor went for help but today all the churches are interested in is collecting their regular collections plates and having their congregations have more kids to keep the paying numbers up - especially the Catholics. Germany has started withholding the sacraments from anyone who does not pay their expected amount - threats work so well.

Our country was established to get away from the Church of England and the forces within and tax exemptions should never have been allowed for donations to any church. I know many churches that use the funds to enrich their pastors with a lavish lifestyle, big cars and homes, trips while their parisioners are being foreclosed on and many are sleeping in shelters, etc. Total hypocricisy.

If anyone knows of any church that uses that day to politic, use your cell phone to record it and notify the I.R.S. requesting that that church's tax exempt status be withdrawn. Any citizen can make that request. Of course, there is no guarantee that it will be done but if enough people were to do this the I.R.S. would have to take action. Unfortunately, most churches do not think they should have to be responsible for any charity for the people - oh, yes for their "missions" in other countries that mostly do not even exist. Plus, keep the hell out of other countries businesses and trying to tell them how to live their lives and convert them. How they live is none of your business. Religions have been doing that in this country since the first to land on the shores - the poor Indians.

Most of us are aware of who said, ““Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” [Mark 12:17] Whether or not the Constitution has exact language of separation of church and state, Christians are bound by the Bible to hold fast to that concept. It seems some of these so called Christian pastors haven't read that part of the Bible.

Consider: if every religion could place their beliefs and symbols in the halls of government, the building would cover the entire country, allowing in no sunshine, rain, or justice.

So many of our ancestors fled persecution from states in cahoots with the religious hierocracy of their time in Europe and the East. It amazes me that we so soon forget the “sins” of persecution through the many inquisitions of church/states. The people who wrote the American Constitution were very aware of the violence and terror that their mothers and fathers had fled in hopes of building a free country.

Some of the founders of the government of the United States of America were Christian. Some were not. Out of their diversity and vision they, together, drafted a document that has been a model for many states. The idea, that has been carried by those of us who seek to build on the highest ideals that we profess for this nation, is that we are the government and are responsible for the laws and policies that guide our daily governing, and as responsible citizens, we must not allow any religious pratice to promote or establish state religion.Telling congregations how to vote is promoting state religion.

The amendments of the Bill of Rights clarify the vision for freedom and responsibility so that power brokers cannot take our rights away. Our ability, to think all thoughts and choose our individual paths through life’s maze of dangers and opportunities, has made us strong.

As a reminder, the First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. This great amendment should be understood clearly by every citizen, so that over time, every law of the land is measured by it.

And finally, because of the importance of this amendment for the establishment and maintenance of a free people, every phrase of it is under attack by the very power brokers it was intended to block.

Churches that preach political power and promote candidates, must forfeit their tax exemption. It is the law.

Jwhitmill,

I'm an atheist, but I have no beef with what you describe.. However it is a humongous problem when churches go beyond the bounds of religious freedom, crossing the line to where they begin to force their religionintro others. I suspect if we studied the details we would not agree where to draw the line. Prayer in school for example is a major problem.. Freedom says parents are responsible for their child.. Commandeering the public school system to install prayer as though one size accommodates all is a call for fightIng (as an example of clearly crossing the line). Children voluntarily expressing themselves during breaks, lunch, before and after schoolLiz not a problem for atheists (and groups like AU.org). Hopefully in your case I'm preaching to the proverbial choir..

GLOBAL:

You gotta be kidding me.. It's the richest 1-percent who are literally stealing money from the 99-percent.. Theperple who actually earn the money be actually doing the work should have a bigger piece of the money pie.. You seem to advocate funneling too much of the pie to the 1-percent. And this hurts society, and it itdestroying oureconomy (bc people don't have money to spend, when it's on some fat cats overseas bank account).

Religion has to be the greatest business in the world - even more lucrative than corporate raiding and leveraged buyouts.

What other business sells a product (salvation) for which the 'company' pays nothing - prices that product at 10% of all of its members income generating roughly 100% profit. To get that profit, the principals only work one day per week. AND THEN PAY NO TAXES on that profit.

Sign me up for that line of work.

Yes, I believe in the separation of the Church and State. The congregation should vote with their feet when hearing politics from the pulpit, as I did once when hearing our Lutheran Paster preach politics. I was confronted by the Church Elder when leaving in the middle of the sermon, and I responded with my comment that "politics should not be preached from the pulpit." The Church Elder responded angrily saying "tell it the the Pastor!" My abrupt leaving the church was conveyed to the Pastor, obvioulsy by the Church Elder, and I received a telephone call a week later with an apology from the Pastor. The congregation has a responsibility and should have the courage irrespective of the Church Leadership to separate Church from State.

The article isn't about "taxing people enough," Global. Try reading the article again and see if you can get the point being made about these churches that are supposed to stay out of politics using their untaxed money for political purposes. Also, liberals don't talk about the middle class and the poor being taxed enough, liberals are talking about the fat cats at the top being taxed enough, more like "their fair share" that they haven't paid in fifty years. As far as any "whining" here, you're more like the whiner that doesn't want fair taxes being paid by the wealthy or you'll whine about it.

What these fundamentalists don't understand is EVERY member on the church rolls are responsible for any type of IRS fine. Chances are...the IRS wouldn't...but if they wanted to make an example and slap these "churches" down with their members...they would be singing a new song.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Without separation of church and state we would become a Christian version of Iran.

Um yeah, people forget we have free speech? Talking about something doesn't cross the line between church and state. For example, the line was crossed long ago when the Roman Catholic church had members in European government and dictating law. That is what part of the law of separation church and state pertains to.

And concerning taxation. If churches get taxed, then all non-profits should get taxed to make things fair. Is that what people want?

Money always talks. Either remove the exemption for the guilty parties, or remove it as a perk for all religions. I have known people who have gotten licenses as pastors in order to avoid paying income taxes. They are thumbing their noses at American citizens, the Constitution and Christianity because they are liars and thieves who can not be trusted to keep an agreement.

The IRS should move on this immediately. These sleazeballs will roll out of the pulpit and back onto the streetcorners where they belong.

Because the Inquisition still operated (its last burning-at-the-stake was in 1721) and the horrors of the wars of religion were fresh in collective memory, the innate savagery of Christianity and the deadly dangers of state religion were a major part of the Founders' reality.

Understanding both the need to disempower the church by separating it from the state and the need to protect religious believers by prohibiting persecution by government, their constitutional solutions -- the establishment clause and the First Amendment -- were the most effective such measures in human history. Hence they have been under attack by Christian fundamentalists ever since.

Thus the relevant question is not whether we believe in separation of church and state -- I like all rational U.S. citizens surely do -- but how much longer it will be before the lavishly financed, subversively entrenched forces of Christian theocracy prevail.

Funded as they are by the One Percent -- theocracy is the method of social control vastly preferred by capitalism (not the least because it literally grants divine-right rule to chief executive officers and all other bosses) -- the Christians long ago established themselves as the de facto masters of the South, with the Ku Klux Klan (colloquially known as "the Saturday Night Men's Bible Stidy Class") functioning as the equivalent of the Morality Police characteristic of Islam.

Now, their influence expanded by the "faith-based initiatives" started by Bush II and steathily grown to unprecedented magnitude by Obama, the Christians are planning their final assault on secular society -- the real significance of the Alliance and its test cases.

Obviously the proverbial fix is already in, the Christians assured that when their cases reach the Robbers' Court, the majority will rule the U.S. is a Christian nation, not just ending forever the last vestiges of the American experiment in constitutional democracy, but reducing the United States to nothing more than a Christian variant of a zero-tolerance Talibanic dictatorship, complete with public stonings and burnings.

Klentz, I agree - if you could find that line of work, you should grab it.

But thinking clergy and other staff work only one day a week is akin to thinking teachers only work until 3 pm 9 months out of the year; it just ain't so. Most pastors - at least the good ones - with whom I've been associated work 60-80 hours/week and are frequently on call 24/7 for emergency calls. I'm frequently at church 7 days/week - and I'm not even full-time.

And the idea that we pay no taxes on our pay is a misunderstanding; we pay full income and payroll taxes - the same as anyone else.

You may not like churches - and I'd be with you, regarding some - but I don't know of any where the staff works so little and gets tax-free pay. I'd grab that job, too, if it existed.

Churches all over the USA are the owners of huge amounts of property and if nothing else, should be taxed for everything except the lot/lots the church is on. However when they enter into the political arena they need to loose their tax exemptions. It is so easy to be brainwashed in a church, by a Priest, Pastor, ETC, ETC, that if they are going to be in that arena the church should be paying taxes on everything, just as I do. Over the years there has been much injustice done by Priests, Pastors, ETC, ETC, like stealing, pedophiles, prostitutes, ETC, ETC,. Before they take up Politics they need to clean up their behavior. hankk MI

The Armageddon is actually the beginning. Einstein used an expression that God rolls the dice. For me the chaos of life is Gods fire wall. Anyone can approach to play; our constitution calls it a free will. Though the caveat, in a general metaphor, be careful on which buttons you press. So, one can ascend to the other world quickly, perhaps get picked to carry out Gods work, here or there. Or as a friend of mine says there is nothing out there after life. To which I disagree. But a cripple like Stephen Hawking quotes;

“As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions.” LOL.

http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_SHawking.htm

So, The Grand Design is without God. But even Hawking admitted the universe is so very fine tuned.

For me, thoughts of the bible reflect on God’s Kingdom, actually loaded with tyranny. One of the most popular bibles, King James, because of the elegant language. Translated the bible during the time of Shakespeare. Don’t forget, Jesus condemned Usury. Yet, America will ask Christians to accept loan legislation awry with details and angels. Likely Luther the fallen Dark Angel. As Romney once said something like “The devils in the details”. His dark angels are backup to bankruptcy. The Church administered justice and torture for centuries. Good reason to separate it from government. Water dunking or stockades use in early America for heresy or treason. Just surrendering the army garrison at West Point to the British was considered treason. Done by a high ranking Gen. Benedict Arnold.

The evil is in the Usury, loan business. America is in this squirrel cage economy where the Federal Reserve can issue money out of thin air to only those connected at the top. However can easily electronically down load a pay pal to my account. An ordinary citizen. Just a voter. And, why not? This wagon wheel effect can work on the low end too. The jack wagons on the top end of the money spectrum are contemplating this. Soon, that time when the numbers line up in an unusual way once in a life time this December the twenty first two thousand and twelve. That is 12,21,12. If one studied numbers like this realize it is unique. All PRIME. Unit value one. Unity. The mathematicians call it the basis system. We can be sure the sun will rise to a new day. A happy day for those ninety nine percenters. They just need to vote.

The question is, will the IRS follow the tax exempt status law and apply it to those participating in "Pulpit Right Wing Extremism Sunday."? We have laws for a reason, and they don't get much more important than this one!...... and..... The Bill of Rights is still valid....last I knew!

The so called laws separating church and state have been ignored, glossed over, partisianly pandered to from all sides and generally given way too much leeway for a country that professes in it's founding charter as a separation from some god or another.

Why would those from my generation been made from kindergarten on have been forced to pledge an allegiance to some god or another? If for any other purpose than indoctrination?

The religious segment in the last few years have gain so much traction in the public square that they effect everyones life these days. Hospitals and doctors that won't perform legal procedures, insurance companys that can't or won't cover all common place health issues, people who can't even join with a partner of choice, etc. Think about all the ways religion entrudes where they have no business these days.

Consider, we have a pharmacist who relegiously objects to selling one pill or another, he can refuse to sell that product.....AND still keep his job! Excuse me!!!!!! It seems to me he's unfit for the job at hand as the person legally wanting that product is within the public square. I'll liken it to a bartender who gets a sudden epiphany and will only sell Virgin Marys or club soda yet demands that he be allowed to still work and be paid as a bartender.

If one person or an orginization is going to slake their thirst at the community well, than they damn well should learn to keep their collective noses out of how the community chooses to live in harmony with each other.

I've heard for years that liberal churches have been languishing (I know some that are booming), but the situation Thom describes is surely among the more right-wing fundamentalist and Evangelical churches. This pushiness in the present "conservative" groups is spilling into churches. They will regret doing this. They may be the next ones languishing.

There is a strong "libertarian"-streak in the GOP now. And there are areas where libertarians and progressives agree as well as areas they definitely do not. It is very difficult to understand how real libertarians and fundamentalists can get along, In fact, the Ron Paul devotees were flipping-off and cursing the GOP after the convention. There are potential eruptions within the party that could yet shake it to the core.

What I think you have is some right-wing Evangelicals who are so frustrated from decades of fighting gay rights and Roe that they are ready to trounce on the very principles of the Constitution to which they say they are the truest adherents. The hypocrisy is incredibly blatant. You'd think they could see it. I was once one of them, and the politicization of these churches has ruined them and rendered them blind to their own hubris.

Well, if the average american has to pay 35% of thier gross income and a very select few pay half that they are not paing thier fair share. We as a country are taxed a percentage rate for income that is earned and then a seperate rate for investments whose returns are generally funded on the backs of people who actually work and then pay a larger percentage of thier income to taxes. What about this sounds fairt for all involved?