After meeting with labor leaders in the White House on Tuesday...

President Obama is putting forward a big number when it comes to raising revenue ahead of “fiscal cliff” negotiations. The White House is proposing $1.6 trillion in new revenue from letting the Bush tax cuts expire for the top 2% wealthiest Americans and closing deduction and loopholes. That’s nearly half of all the savings expected to come from $4 trillion in deficit reduction over the next ten years that the President is proposing in his new budget.

It’s also double what Speaker of the House John Boehner floated during negotiations last year. But it shows the President is finally going to the negotiating table with a big offer rather than an already compromised offer. He’s also talking tough – telling labor leaders on Tuesday that he’s “not going to budge” on letting the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire. On Friday, the president will meet with Congressional Republicans to begin negotiations. Still, there are valid concerns that Medicare and Social Security could be put on the chopping block during these negotiations.

Democratic Congressman Chris Van Hollen hinted that Democrats are open to the idea of raising the eligibility age of Medicare and slowing cost-of-living increases with Social Security as long as it’s part of a "balanced deal." Last time I checked, Democrats won big in last week’s election – and still control the White House and the Senate on behalf of the voters. House Democratic candidates also won a half-million more Congressional votes than House Republican candidates.

That looks like a mandate to me – meaning Americans don’t want a “balanced” approach – they want a progressive approach.

Comments

Global's picture
Global 11 years 32 weeks ago
#1

Yea, the progressive approach -- Forward right over the cliff.

Nota Doormat's picture
Nota Doormat 11 years 32 weeks ago
#2

Whatever happened to raising the income cap for FISA deductions? That ought to be on the table, too.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 31 weeks ago
#3

So they are going to tax the rich blah blah blah. How does this put people back to work?

As a Canadian I love the fact your going to tax the rich though. The rich are staring to invest up here just knowing its coming. The Koch Bros. are going ahead with a 425 million dollar pilot project in my province shortly. At least someone in North America will get a job. I am sure it is the start of may more.

Oh by the way, if Obamas taxing the rich plan doesn't work. If you are looking for work. google alberta oil sands employment there is hundreds and hundreds of jobs available. Please don't come here without a place to stay we have zero vacancy. I understand "Service Canada" is fast tracking short term work visas to help with the labour shortage here.

No arts students needed. we have lots of those we need welders, millwrights, plumbers, all trades.

Nota what is FISA?

mathboy's picture
mathboy 11 years 31 weeks ago
#4

Despite Obama's assurance that solving the fiscal cliff (and the unassociated issue of the Bush tax cuts) consists of just arithmetic, I bet there's actually some calculus. Calculus deals with rates of change and summation of things over time (or distance etc.). Changing a tax rate changes the sum of government revenue over any given period.

I highly recommend calculus as a mind-expanding subject, and I wish every member of Congress understood it.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 31 weeks ago
#5

Well, it seems according to the CONservatives that if it includes any changes to the taxes of the wealthy and super wealthy it will throw us over the so called fiscal cliff. I have to guess your answer would be to cut all social programs and add to the military budget. This would increase jobs in the military industrial complex and add more none taxable wealth to the rich. You have just reaffirmed my belief that if we would have elected a Republican into the White House the middle class would have been sacrificed to increase the wealth of the top 2%. Typical conservative bozo attitude. When Clinton was in the White House we had hire taxes and the job market was doing fine. Yet to return to those tax levels would somehow destroy the economy and America is doomed. History is not on the side of those who claim letting the tax cuts run out will do anything to harm the economy. I personally would like to see what happens if we increase tax revenue through higher taxes on the wealthier Americans and moderate cuts to social programs. If the House refuses to budge on raising taxes on the wealthy, let the increases and cuts happen. In any event Obama will be president for four more years and we have the Senate and if we wait a short period we will have the House as well and we will be able to implement bills that will help our nation and rid ourselves or the insanity the Republicans hold so dearly...

mathboy's picture
mathboy 11 years 31 weeks ago
#6

Hey, Thom, did you know that Joe Hill of the Wobblies was the one who coined the term "pie in the sky"? I found that in a book called The Quotable Atheist.

stonesphear's picture
stonesphear 11 years 31 weeks ago
#7

SALE !!! Get em while they last. Lead Zeppelins and Golden Parachutes , Ace Aviation LMT. Division of Ajax Corporation Enterprises , MBeep ! MBeep !

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 31 weeks ago
#8

Kend - I keep forgetting you are a Canadian. That explains why you’re so interested in our politics, not much happening in that frozen lake of yours! I guess in a country with a limited amount of people a few hundred jobs seems like a real exciting number! I suppose you missed the news that America within the next few years will be self-sufficient with natural gas and oil. Production is up and jobs are slowly gaining ground. When we had higher taxes on the wealthy under President Clinton our economy was doing great with no deficit and a surplus of capital. Then we had a natural disaster named G. Bush and his henchmen take over the White House. The American voters put their faith and future in the Republicans and it almost destroyed the country. Not to mention how under his watch Wall ST. was able to push bogus derivatives here and around the world. We will not make that mistake again. And as far as the Koch brothers go, their interests always go to places where they can destroy the environment due to lax government regulations, so I hope they do not destroy that frozen lake you call home! In my opinion all Americans have the right to judge our country and to agree or disagree with the policies put forth in Washington, Canuks don't! Keep your criticisms for your Canuk politicians, not American policies!

leighmf's picture
leighmf 11 years 31 weeks ago
#9

I don't see any balance or progress in a deal which will not get citizens living out of garbage bags and grocery carts off the side of U.S. Federal Highway 1.

It must be that the beautiful minds never see enough desperation and hopelessness in their own neighborhoods and malls to understand what HUMAN NEED is.

I went with a social worker to a "tent city" to deliver a carton of ENSURE to a starving man on a cot. This man was too weak, too sick, and starving to barely move and was too young to receive any "help" other than ENSURE to keep under his cot. This was provided through Salvation Army which is booked to the hilt in their facilities.

Whether we pay for it with government money or volunteer our personal time to help those who are physically sick, mentally ill, and starving in tent cities, or dying by the side of the road, how can we enjoy our Super-Size everything in the Merz, knowing such desperation on our roadsides is a subject of disdain to so many?

Are there any hearts left?

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 11 years 31 weeks ago
#10

Sure, I want a balanced negotiation between democrats and republicans: and at the end of that negotiation, I expect that millionaires and billionaires, oil companies, banks, and all of wall street will be forced, kicking and screaming all the way, to pay their fair share of taxes.

Those corporations whine about paying taxes, but when it comes to using the resources that OUR taxes pay for- the courts, the police, the military, the roads, the bridges, the water systems, and on and on and on- oh, those corporations want MUCH MORE than their fair share. They expect our military to spend trillions of dollars protecting their interests in the Middle East, but they they become little girlymen when tax time comes and they complain, "Oh, we can't afford to pay taxes to support the military, let the middle class pay those taxes. And let the middle class send their children to fight our wars."

Yeah? Well, when was the last time that our military went to war to protect MY interests, or the interests of ANY middle class or poor class citizen? I'll tell you when that was: it was NEVER, it has never happened. So how about this fair and balanced solution: let the corporations pull themselves up by their bootstraps and pay for their own damn wars, and send their own kids over to wherever to fight those wars. I can just see those spoon-fed rich kids wading through the sand, covered with insecticide, fearing for their lives every minute of every day.

How's this for a negotiating tactic: every time any republican threatens to filibuster, or stands in the way of the rich paying their fair share of taxes, that republican's name should be put in the newspapers, on the radio and tv news shows, as an anti-American traitor who is trying to destroy our freedom. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine, along with a healthy dose of responsibility for their own actions.

bldegl's picture
bldegl 11 years 31 weeks ago
#11

I am willing to pay higher taxes if Obama lets the Bush era tax cuts expire. I have already seen the tax accessor lower my property value while upping my taxes. So, the way I figure it, if my taxes go up when the Bush era tax cuts expire, it won't matter because as long as they remain, I am seeing my taxes go up in other ways and other places.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 31 weeks ago
#12

Wow! Abbot I thought I was angry at the government, you win that contest!! I agree with your comments to a degree. If they put ever Senators picture on the news that tried to shut down the progress in the Senate that might actually help Americans, there wouldn't be much room for anything else! Ha Unfortunately for us it appears both sides took a great deal of money from the corporations this election cycle, just like in all the previous elections throughout America and now all the politicians owe their masters. Our only hope is that Obama will actually stay true to his statements he has made this last week. But if the House stays true to their masters and they refuse to actually raise taxes, Obama should let the increase in taxes for everyone and the cuts happen. Otherwise it will just be another term with business as usual and they will kick the budget down the road for another year or more. If no one does anything, than we have to look at the real possibility of inflation and depreciation of our currency and that is a real possibility starting in 2014. The feds just want to keep printing money until we have real inflation and everything goes up 100% or more for our gas and bread! They seem to think we can keep buying our own bonds to fix the budget problems. Germany 1918-a loaf of bread cost 10,000 marks, money's value dropped like a skydiver with no parachute. This example is on the extreme side, but inflation is a real possibility if we flood the market with too many dollars to buy bonds to finance the budget. The right wing needs to be pushed to the limit with no holds barred! It would be nice if everyone had to bare the suffering that might happen, but the wealthy will hardly notice a difference in their lives no matter what happens to the rest of America and the budget…

akunard's picture
akunard 11 years 31 weeks ago
#13

I am so tired of this over 10 years CRAP! Trying to make it look like a big number when it is not! And every one knows that any bill will not be forced on the next Congress!

BMetcalfe's picture
BMetcalfe 11 years 31 weeks ago
#14

Let's see... the world is getting more polluted every day, climate change (regardless of why it's happening) is upon us for the foreseeable future; we're not allowed to know if the food we're buying is genetically modified, my graduating class of 1964 has had more deaths in the past ten years from cancers, gastrointestinal problems, obesity, and exposure to (wink-wink) Agent Orange and military-related suicides, than any previous generation.

Gee, if the government raises the Social Security retirement age another 4 years, and allows Medicare to be delayed for another couple or 3, pretty soon NONE of us will be living long enough to COLLECT anything... Perhaps that's been the plan, all along. Just phase the hard-working non-elites out of collecting our benefits (no matter how sick we become at even earlier ages), and the Government Welfare we've paid into all our working lives can be used by both the parties - for surplus!

Global's picture
Global 11 years 31 weeks ago
#15

Ken, I try not to fall for the left/ right clap trap. I am more in the line of Ron Paul philosophy. I would cut the hell out of military spending and anything else that we do not need to support big government programs. We have a spending problem in this country not a revenue problem. Tell me why the one time 800 billion stimulus spending stays on the baseline budget forever, does that make sense? If I buy a car this year should I budget for a new car every year after? it is the spending stupid that is killing us. I want to actually see people keep the money they earn, I think we would spend the money much more efficiently than the government. What is so radical about keeping most of the money we earn. Unfortunately the liberal mind is all about big government programs and support programs that don't work. Spend more money we don't have and think taxing the rich will make you feel better.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 31 weeks ago
#16

I am interested in your politics because 70% of our exports go to the US. But we just signed trade deals with India and China so i think that will change a little. I personally have some investments down there so I need to keep on top of what happens. But you are right as a Canadian it really is none of my business. No one said America will be self sufficent they all said "North American self sufficent". Canada is and will always be Americas largest supplier of Oil and Gas. Canada has the best government regulations in the world when it comes to the Energy industry. Most oil companies hate doing business here for that reason but we do have the second largest oil reserves in the world second only to Saudi Arabia so they don't have much choice. And just think unlike the middle east we are a very ethical country. Equal rights for all like you.

Come on Ken be nice "frozen lake" yes it is true one third of the worlds fresh water is in Canada but is is the second largest country in the world we do have a few trees and mountains as well and yes there is only one tenth of the population of the US here but with these cold nights there isn't much to do in the winter but try to increase our population so we are working on it. I was just trying to be nice about the job thing. You know just in case.

Just out of curiosity what state do you like in ken?

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 11 years 31 weeks ago
#17

hey ken i replied to you on yesterdays post in respect to your misperception of my ranting so i want to be clear. simply put i want every dollar earned, regardless of how, to be taxed "equally". so if cap gains is 10-15% or sometimes none at all why should my ilk of folk that just pull a w-2 have to pay 18-27%. Get it? And just a little FYI, did you know that the IRS estimates 400-500 billion a year in lost revenue all because of cheaters? Does that not make you just a bit upset? And who do you think those cheaters are, hmmm? Me a republican? hyuk,.hyukl,hyuk...

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#18

I noticed that in today's press conference Obama mentioned "compromise" several times. "Compromise?!!" We don't need no stinking "compromise"! When did the Republicans ever compromise? Already, Obama is hinting that he will continue to sell us out. Sure, he is talking tough on "making the rich pay their fair share of taxes"...but until we see action and the results...it is all just a bunch of Hooey!

He even hinted that he may have to "compromise" the social programs despite saying initially that those programs would be "safe". I wouldn't be too surprised if they did a midnight trashing of our social programs on Christmas Eve similar to what they did when they sneaked in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 on January 5th.

He did appear to be very adamant about making the uber rich pay more in taxes and emphasized that the middle class (those making under $250,000/year income) would have tax breaks. But, in all that was talked about, not a word was mentioned about cutting back on Pentagon spending. Why won't they talk about military spending and their folly in wasting more money on criminal wars? Not even one reporter asked about military spending...like it is "off the table". And the ending results may very well be that the Pentagon will continue to waste scads of money, the top 1% may have to pay a little more in taxes (but I'm sure they will have their lawyers find creative ways to nullify the extra apparent taxes), the middle class (especially the ones making up close to $250,000 will get tax breaks and continue to bask in the sun on their yearly vacations) and everyone else down towards the bottom will have had their social programs, their only means of survival, swept out from under them.

Maybe these wag-the-dog subjects of how Generals having sexual affairs and the blame game about the Benghazi attack are meant to detract from the upcoming decisions on who will pay for America's reckless wasteful spending on criminal wars.

megalomaniac's picture
megalomaniac 11 years 31 weeks ago
#19

It’s not a mandate

Not a landslide

More like an electoral tectonic shift. Yes as in a geo-tectonic shift. With inspiration, and perhaps a little help from the Aether, maybe our mother earth is angry too. The win is with the Democratic Party and the Republicans are having a fit. The statistics show a most unusual force took place, all swing states went to Obama including Florida. The cable pundits’ way off. Sure by an edge but every swing state by an edge is unique. Beyond unique, more than a mandate a total electoral shift.

The reason for the Republican loses, endless, relentless, and obnoxious, with in your face, Republican Pedaling, with a Purpose of Rapture, hate, and economic Armageddon. The end is near if you vote for Obama. Now, the new expression opens discussion and the Money Cliff. The drama of political theater of course it’s the mountain of money the Republicans will lose, that which was sacked from the treasury. So it’s Monty Hall let’s make a deal. Isn’t it interesting that people with money, not only in America but around the world feel a pressure from the middle class. A World wide effect of change is happening. It’s interesting how in science we all accept the natural redistribution if nature calls. But if man asks his fellow man for fair distribution there is an endless argument. Redistribution in nature is ongoing, always happening, especially in a conservative way. You who, Republicans did you get that. LOL.

It all reminds me of the story and history in the evolution of chemistry and calculus. The classical math carried over from the old world. Isaac Newton rejected the original theory of the atomic structure of molecule in constant motion. He proposed a static model which was wrong. But considering Newton and likely political connections that “wrong rejection” held for a century. Newton’s authority was so great other scientists were more or less ignored.

So here we are, climate change, oh the rhetoric now changing for America to be the largest oil producer in the world. One might think the Republicans have a tectonic plate in their heads shifting every time they lose an election. With a chuckle it seems possible America might just might dig deep into the core of corruption of our one percent leadership, our Congress and Senate the Supreme Court, and of course the cable and radio media hacking away for investigations into General Petraeus tightly connected to the Bush administration. War profiteering, and Iraq cover ups likely to be outed. Or the Republicans might just say no problem to tax increases. From my view either way the Republicans will eventually lose the Congress then the real fun begins.

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 11 years 31 weeks ago
#20

what is 500 billion one half of? ahhh to dream the impossible dream. Just imagine if evryone was just taxed equally and the cheaters didn't cheat for 4 years... just sayin'. So when your expensing on your schedule C? expensing on your E or padding your contributions miscellaneous deduction on your A? Or messing woth the basis on your D. just be honest for 4 years. it would be a start don't you all think?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#21

The problem with the argument that we should all "keep all of the money that we earn" and that "we can spend our money more efficiently than the government" is that no one really believes that everyone else is as deserving of all that money as you are..and that everyone else should pay for our infrastructure. And the higher up the economic latter, the more they are deluded into believing that they earned and deserve all they earned. And being at the top, having all the power, they will make all the people at the bottom pay all the taxes.

If we had a system, like libertarians want, instead of taxes providing the means to fund the construction and maintenance of our roads...you'd have to pay a toll to a privately owned company to drive on these roads or even to walk down the sidewalk. Even our neighborhood streets would be owned by private companies. Everything would be owned by private companies and you, the individual, would have no real say in how much you would have to pay these companies. They would form total monopolies...even worse than what exists today.

Our government would be a lot more efficient if it wasn't for the element of corruption that is constantly being forced upon our government by mega corporations that have gotten too big and powerful. And these corporations are not really more efficient...they waste scads of money paying off their sinecure CEOs and other top executives and all of the major stockholders who don't care a whit about anything except a quick profit. And in order to make the quick profits to satisfy the top execs and stock holders, they usually end up screwing the workers and produce inferior products. Then they rely on psychological trickery in their marketing to make people think they are buying something worth buying.

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 11 years 31 weeks ago
#22

LOOK! straight up, when are folks going to quit with adding Social Security and Medicare taxes into the equation? They are seperate tax items!!! They should be seperated completely from the whole budget issue. My head wants to e'splode every time its brought up. They already screwed Social up when they reduced it 2% trying to sell us working stiffs on the notion that it would be money well spent? Jive,jive,jive. I am a hard line believer in jacking taxes up on the rich or at least leveling the "taxable" end by where its all taxed "equally". Moreover i would not even object to the social security employee contrib amount being bumped up to 7.2% if it means saving the system and prevnting us all from having to work to the grave. hellz bellz and ginger snaps! i wanted to go fishing when i was 65!!! Even got my pole! Just got no time, workin' and all ya know!wink,wink.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#23

That's exactly right! Social Security and Medicare, at least, should not even be considered by anyone to be "on the table". Hands off! Should be absolutely not even considered. We all paid into the system and by Zod we should all get what we paid for....what we slaved for! If they renege on these social programs, what WE PAID FOR, they will have committed an egregious mistake...a sinister robbery from hard workers who spent their lives paying for their retirements. Stealing from the social programs will amount to cold blooded murder of many senior citizens. Obama should never, ever, use the word "compromise" in the same sentence or even paragraph or even the same speech with raising taxes on the wealthy. They can talk about cutting Pentagon spending!

HalFonts's picture
HalFonts 11 years 31 weeks ago
#24

I totally agree: Quit with the "-- -- -- over TEN-years" CRAP. With few exceptions that's just inflating what little you're doing or "kicking the can down the road." You have no way what's gonna happen beyond 2 or 4-years.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 11 years 31 weeks ago
#25

I sure hope Van Hollen is just warning us all about a few blue dogs drinking bad tea. Maybe Senator Sanders needs to conduct a little info seminar for some misguided souls over in the house.

First of all, LOWERING the age of eligibility is the correct thing to do.....this would open up the job market and at the same time stimulate greatly, the economy.

Secondly, most of the new earnings are occurring above the current cap, while wages below it remain stagnant. This alone is a good argument for raising the cap and ending the problem forever. The republicans hate social security because it's a NON PROFIT social program that is well loved and works, and they're thinking what's next, socialized healthcare, energy, education???

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#26

Great speech on The Daily Take, Thom!

fatfax's picture
fatfax 11 years 31 weeks ago
#27

Finish them off, burn'em to the ground !!! Vote out double agents like Chris Van Hollen.

ScottFromOz 11 years 31 weeks ago
#28

Unless Obama closes the gates on money transfers and closes the loopholes on tax havens, raising tax rates for the rich will have NO effect at all. All that will happen will be a rush of flight capital offshore. I agree BTW that it is long past time that those who benefit most from our sociecty also start to pay their fair share of running it.

And NO, rich people, with the miserly amounts of taxes you pay, You DIDN'T Build this nation. All you did was sit on your well padded a**es and let the wage slaves build it.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#29

Yes, I see what you mean about Chris Van Hollen...this web site says that Van Hollen has indicated his opinion in favor of cutting social security and medicare...and he's a "democrat"! Bad dog...bad bad dog...bad blue dog!
http://boldprogressives.org/chris-van-hollen-indicates-hes-open-to-cutti...

What I'm afraid of is that Obama and those politicians who decide to "compromise" will end up making it look like the top 1% gets their taxes increased but in reality, after they will have made "compromises" on our social programs, and the 1% will find some way of recouping their "loses"...and we will all be stuck with cuts to SS and MC...with no way to recoup our losses. And the Pentagon will continue raking in the big bucks to waste. The damn Republicans will get just what they wanted all along...and wimpy Obama and the other Democrats will just let them have it. They'll put up a big show, talk big, and then say they had to compromise. Smoke and mirrors......watch the little pea...aww, too bad...you lose!

BMetcalfe's picture
BMetcalfe 11 years 31 weeks ago
#30

The Pentagon has far MORE than they need to protect America. What is a military without the foundation? It's just a shell. Don't you get it? If our people can't drive on roads that cross bridges that can carry heavy weight, and if our towns and cities have no safe evacuation routes for catastrophies, and if our lands cannot grow crops and build things to export that can aid our military or other places, what are we? WE'RE DOOMED... There's no one left to protect. Just land, and forests to cut down/animals to kill. Who is going to protect that?!

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 11 years 31 weeks ago
#31

Nailed it!!!

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 11 years 31 weeks ago
#32

I have often heard people say that the world is a cruel place,
and though I agree it is a "place" I disagree that it is a cruel one.
Artificial things like; Politics, religion, money, racism...Alll the things that create and cause violence, war, poverty, famin, are man mad; ususally stemming from absolute belief systems that create class, status, division, etc.

The world is just a place. Sure there are earth quakes, cyclones, sunami, etc. that can and do cause havic; yet compaired to humans...humans are the vile in the world. We are our own worse enemy. Left or Right, Christian or Muslem, Black or White...We all want; Love, Liberty, Peace, Prospariety, Health, Happiness, however, even though we all agree to this, we allow class, religion, and politics to deni basic Human Needs like; Food, water, shelter, medicine.

We must change our way of thinking so people and planet last.

Nota Doormat's picture
Nota Doormat 11 years 31 weeks ago
#33

FISA = Federal Insurance Contributions Act tax is a United States Federal payroll (or employment) tax imposed on both employees and employers to fund Social Security ...

Craig Bush's picture
Craig Bush 11 years 31 weeks ago
#34

CA progressives think we need specific changes. Universal healthcare to be declared a human right with medi-care the single payer provider. Until then our politicians should pay for their own insurance on the "free market" they gave us. Take a pay cut from all high end govt. workers including legislators with a 5 year pay freeze. This to allow the private sector to catch up. Enact a moratorium on overtime with tax credits for new hire. Allow a 4 day work week for all high stress first responders and law enforcement with a 3 day alternate shift with a liveable wage. Increase the minimum wage. Build water and energy efficient homes for single families to own. Declare all classroom size to be 20 or less. We want specific solutions to problems. Everything else is more BS. We do not like how the politicians are pushing to raise the limit on the tax increase from $250,000 to $450,000. This is a sellout for personal financial interests.

Global's picture
Global 11 years 31 weeks ago
#35

And you wonder why California is going broke and will declare bankruptcy with in two years. Fantasy land on steroids.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 11 years 31 weeks ago
#36

Thom, today (Thursday, Nov. 15), you spoke with a caller about whether gay people are born that way, and I would like to weigh in on that issue. I tend to favor the "Who knows?" position.

I think at least part of the reason gay people say they were born that way, is because they would just like people to get over it and accept them without trying to change them or thinking that they need to change or making ugly hypocritical religious judgments.

From the systems analysis viewpoint, it's obvious that humanity benefits from and needs people who "aren't like most people," because very often it is those people who make extremely important observations and other contributions to humanity and quite often they get those observations and other contributions specifically because they are different from most people, because their brains are wired a bit differently and/or because of the experiences they have had with respect to being different from most people. Being "on humanity's fringe," energetically speaking, they may catch important incoming ideas and energies before most other people do. So I think we should respect gays not only for their humanity, but also because humanity needs them. Without gays, humanity would be less than it is.

That being said, I would like to comment on an issue that I almost never hear raised in this conversation: the tens of thousands of chemical pollutants in our air, water, food, clothing, houses, and consumer products. Many of those chemicals are pseudo female hormones, they attach to certain receptors in peoples' brains, organs, or glands, and cause specific, predictably physical effects. When Chas Bono decided to get a sex change, he started taking chemicals that caused his body to stop thinking it was female and start thinking it was male, resulting in him growing a beard and developing other male sexual characteristics. A number of chemical pollutants have similar effects in terms of causing boys to develop more feminine physical characteristics, and that cause girls to develop sexually at earlier and earlier ages. Fetuses are exposed to those pseudo-sex-hormone chemicals while they are in the womb, from their mothers' breast milk, from cows milk when the cows are not organic grass fed, from foods that were treated with many kinds of pseudo-female hormone insecticides, in some non-filtered water supplies, shampoos that contain tea tree oil or lavender oil or other essential oils that mimic female hormones. Why, the list is as long as as Pinochio's nose would be if he was a republican...

But in spite of the clearly-demonstrated effects of many toxic chemicals on sexual characteristics in animals, fish, and people, chemicals can't be the only contributing factor, because there were gay people long before we started polluting our planet, and also many people are exposed to pretty much the same amounts of the same chemicals, but only some of them are gay. So there is an undeniable element of uncertainty in the discussion of possible contributing factors.

There is no uncertainty about the republicans' twisted interpretation of the Old Testament, which they claim says, "Yea and forsooth, If you don't feel comfortable around someone, you should scour the Bible for excuses to hate them and ignore the parts of the Bible that preach tolerance and love."

Personally, I like the part of the Bible where Jesus basically says, "Hey, be nice to each other," although I do have the weakness of enjoying poking republicans.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 31 weeks ago
#37

People will always find "witches" to burn...if not the gays then they'll find someone else...and feel quite self-righteous about it.

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Leonardo DiCaprio, actor, producer, and environmental activist
From Cracking the Code:
"In Cracking the Code, Thom Hartmann, America’s most popular, informed, and articulate progressive talk show host and political analyst, tells us what makes humans vulnerable to unscrupulous propagandists and what we can do about it. It is essential reading for all Americans who are fed up with right-wing extremists manipulating our minds and politics to promote agendas contrary to our core values and interests."
David C. Korten, author of The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community and When Corporations Rule the World and board chair of YES! magazine