Ground zero in the labor battle has moved to the Wolverine State
In a sudden move on Thursday, Michigan’s Republican Governor Rick Snyder called on his allies in the state legislature to immediately introduce and pass a Right-to-Work FOR LESS law in the state. These laws have been passed in a number of states around the nation allowing union members to opt out of paying union dues, which cripples organized labor and turns workers against each other. Aided by support from the Koch brothers-funded AstroTurf group Americans for Prosperity, Republicans in the Michigan state house and senate did as they were asked and approved the legislation. Outside, amid massive labor protests, eight people were arrested.
For procedural reasons, Governor Snyder won’t be able to sign the bill into law until early next week. Michigan will join Indiana as only the second state in America’s manufacturing belt to have joined states like Alabama and Mississippi in screwing their workers. Despite what Governor Snyder says about this law and how “pro-worker” it is, the facts show otherwise.
Workers in Right-to-Work FOR LESS states earn about $1,500 less than other workers, and also earn fewer benefits, and are victims of more workplace accidents. Union busters and CEO fatcats are the only winners in a Right-to-Work FOR LESS state. The nation is watching to see if the labor movement builds on their victories in Wisconsin and Ohio, and takes the fight to Michigan on behalf of working people.
It never ends, does it?! And to answer your question Thom, you bet Michigan's voters should dump Snyder!
On a different but related topic, there's something about the way we articulate matters pertaining to income that really grates on me, and it's not just the semantics of conservatism I'm talking about. To get right to the point, a CEO of some corporation doesn't "earn" $30,000 of hourly compensation, because frankly, nobody's time is worth that much; it is simply what he GETS. Ditto the person who flips burgers or sews in a sweatshop. Anyone who is overpaid or underpaid hasn't received what they've truly "earned".
This ties into something I've noticed for a very long time, almost never discussed or given so much as a nod. It is that language isn't neutral. It has biases, assumptions and attitudes woven all through it. These can have a subliminal impact on how we think, if we let them. - Alice I.W.
Thom this should NOT come as a shock to anyone anymore there objectives have been cystal clear to many of WE THE PEOPLE for decades even with all the mind boggling convenient sideshows made to keep the masses busy but what is really disgraceful are the number of alternative news media people doing very well while watching this all unfold since the murder of JFK while other's get there skulls cracked shot with rubber bullets arrested for protesting the complete destruction of what was once there homes ,jobs healthcare, future "American dream" we have been forced to drive hours away just for a job that pays the bills and nothing more while living on pure hope that someday something good has got to happen only to have our hopes dashed because once again it's voting time and since every promise made by every "elected" official who lives off the blood of tax payers then votes against the very people who write his paycheck , How can we sit still anylonger while the very "Rule Of Law" tossed around in speeches and senate hearings seem's to only apply to WE THE PEOPLE . The shameful blatant hypocrisy together with the everyday conflicts of interest that are common practice today didn't just start last week and why you spend so much time doing your Republican Vs Democrate vs liberal Green whatever thing is shameful when WE little people know fullwell what it's really about sure we have plenty of laws but only seem to be applied when we the people break them who could have ever imagined our entire Banking industry together with Insurance Companys and Investment houses conspired to plunder a Nation not once but time and time again and instead of LAWS being passed that benefit the now homesless home owners nothing get's accomplished NOBODY get's disgraced know one get's a very public arrest but rather bailed out with yet more of the tax dollars, our accounts would have been frozen solid long ago and any money's seized but not there's they all just sat there looking stupid infront of the world and did exactly like the Petroleum boys did ...so while we bust our asses working for less while paying more and getting less the exclusive boys clubs are giving fundraisers while smiling for the camera's and shaking hands with police commissioners Mayors senators congressman while look through the window drooling and as if thats not enough the Corrupt newsmedia has the audasity to blame it on the millions of homeowners who were swindled who's retirerment accounts emptied and still after all that Those lowly criminally insane scumbags in congress won't pass any kind of Jobs bill for Infrastructure that is so past needed anyway . Homeowners are still being foreclosed on by the very institutions that conspired against us .who worked overtime to get the very safeguards lifted that kept the industry almost safe for 100 yrs but the real icing on the cake thom is your refusal to say a word about HAARP and the Chemtrail Monsanto Raytheon Cabal and the role they play in the Manufactured weather industry that has been responsible for Mega cell T-storms Tsunamis Tornados that strike the same place twice ..P.S. Thom incase you haven't heard 9/11 had about as much to do with Osama bin laden as SANTA CLAUS come on thom clean out your head gear.
A note to "ragingdemo" - your anger is absolutely justified. Yes there's a class war; yes we've been had by psychopaths & thieves, who took over our government and are holding us hostage! They've been bankrolling & killing us en masse with their policies. You bet we're screwed, and many of us are madder than hell about it. But let's not bash someone like Thom Hartmann who's on our side!
In the four years I've listened to Thom, his show has been an education for me. I've never heard anyone more knowledgeable about so many things: history, science, civics, sociology as well as politics. Thom is the crown jewel of progressive talk radio, something we have precious little of these days. Most of the airwaves in this country (like 85-90%) have been taken over by fascist, gestapo hacks like Rush Limbaugh & Glenn Beck, delivering hate speech, slurs & lies, exploiting the ideological divide in this country as well as people's ignorance and fear.
I tell you comrade, it is dangerous, not just offensive. Our only hope is to educate ourselves so that we know who the enemy is and what we're truly up against. Knowledge is power, the only power available to us outside of our numbers, of being he MAJORITY. Without the kind of alternative media Thom represents, we'd all be groping in the dark, lashing out at each other instead of digging out of this hole. Very, very dangerous, I kid you not. So I listen to folks like Thom as often as I can. We need to get a grip and get educated or we're collectively doomed. An ill-informed citizenry is hardly equipped to take back what we've earned, what is rightfully ours. Let's direct our anger at those who truly deserve it. - Alice I.W.
P.S. ragingdemo or whoever: what is HAARP?
P.P.S... Anyone home? Hello?
Look Ken, I'm not going to argue with your reasons for being angry & cynical. In all likelihood I'm close to your age; I've seen the same friggin' movie play itself out over & over. Like you, I've witnessed the whole fifty-year enchilada. On many accounts, your feelings are quite justified. It's just that I don't happen to give a rat's behind whether Wienie Boy Baucus, Empty Suit Romney or Paul the Pipsqueak Ryan care what we think. Whatever. From my perspective this kind of dialogue among "we the people" still holds enough value to weigh in as an end in itself. I certainly wouldn't call it "talking into the wind". Should you maintain that we're wasting our breath and that I am "self-delusional", well then so be it; life goes on. The sun will still be rising tomorrow morning, rain or shine.
Aliceinwonderland – If you believe what we have to say here is important to any politician you are being self-delusional. The only time Washington or local politicians react to what we say is during the election cycle. Take for instance the Occupy Wall ST. group, what have they accomplished except to let the police hone their police tactics. I grew up during the 60's and served during the Vietnam War and in reality the marches did very little to bring the War to an end. It was the election cycle that brought the war to an end and the monetary costs. As you have heard Hartmann mention, Nixon went behind Johnson's political back and made a deal with the Premier of S. Vietnam during an election year so he could have an advantage over Humphrey in the 68' election. It was five more years until we brought the troops home. After Nixon was elected he continued the War until 73’. Our voices matter when the votes are going to be counted and in between you’re talking into the wind unless you are donating large sums of cash to the politicians. Sorry to bust your bubble of self-worth. This is the new America, not the era our grandfathers voted in...You have nothing to worry about concerning the government unless you make any type of (perceived) threatening remark in this age of no tolerance from the Government towards the people’s right to free speech. But, step out of line and the man will come and take you away.. It is a lyric from one of my favorite songs from the 60's. I think if you read what Palindromedary commented yesterday, he basically is saying the same thing. I am not saying engaging others in conversation isn't useful to ourselves and to those that engage in the conversation, but it has no direct impact on our politicians. And it is highly doubtful Hartmann even reads the comments on his own Blog, it is basically a business for him and other political commentators. Bombs Away...Politics in our nation and around the World is a game of War. A war that we presently are losing to the wealthiest in our country. We should never stop fighting regards of the outcome of our actions and reactions from our politicians. But words are no match for the hundreds of millions of dollars that have an actuall impact on the decision making in Washington.
Beyond that, I think it is a mistake - even intellectually lazy - to lump all politicians together as a worthless bunch of deadbeats who are out to screw us over. I concede, most of them would probably fit that category. But there've been notable exceptions, like the late Ted "Where-Does-The-Greed-Stop" Kennedy, along with Dennis Kucinich, Alan Grayson, Jeff Merkley, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders... the list goes on! We'd be much worse off without these progressive warriors out there swinging for us, in the relentless glare of the media as well as the halls of Congress; those precious few whose minds & spirits aren't up for sale to the highest bidder.
Wow, I thought I was the only one who went back and re-read the comments when I am bored! It is good to have this conversation or exchange of ideas. Hope you have a good weekend and week. Perhaps you are right, let’s see how much impact we have with the decisions the Republicans and Obama make concerning the so call fiscal cliff scenario. I personally think neither side is concerned with the people that will suffer from it. I have a feeling that this whole dog and pony show is being performed by both sides so they can let the cuts take place that will be the same as adopting a policy of austerity without having to admit it to the people in each respective party. They can blame the other side for the cuts to the poor and middle class and initialize a policy of austerity for Americans without being the "bad guys" and like I said blame it on the other party. And the Republicans can still call for further cuts in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I really hope I am wrong, but I do not trust the Obama administration and the Republicans as far as I could toss an F4-Phantom across a flight deck...(the aircraft on my picture area is an F-4)
Your dismissal of the Occupy Movement leaves me cold. What would you suggest, then? Please enlighten me to what it is YOU think we should do; give up? Just roll over and surrender to forces of greed & tyranny, while they continue bulldozing our lives and everything else into oblivion?!
Oh and by the way... as any history student worth his salt would tell you, our grandfathers didn't have it so easy either. How would you characterize World War One? You think that was pretty? So much for the "good ole days" ala Norman Rockwell...
What's more Mister Ware (you grouchy old cynic!), I reject your assertion that mass demonstrations did nothing to end the Vietnam War. Noam Chomsky would beg to differ, as do I. Had we not risen up and made all that noise, our peers would have been stuck fighting & dying in Indochina for another twenty years!
I suggest you lighten up and open your mind to other points of view. Because the truth is, Ken, reality is never one-dimensional.
Have a lovely Christmas. - Aliceinwonderland
Well I'll be...! Your latest reply popped up while I was still busy answering your previous one! And by jingles, I THOUGHT that looked like some kind of war plane in the photo you've used for your blog logo.
By the way, I'm never bored. Got too much going on to be bored.
I appreciate you acknowledging that these coversations are worth having. And I don't totally begrudge you your grouchiness because I too am a grouch. You've met your match, pal.
Peace, love an' grooviness! - Alice I.W.
Aliceinwonderland, HAARP is High frequency Active Auroral Research Program.
It's interesting what wikipedia says about it:
"HAARP has been blamed by conspiracy theorists for a range of events, including numerous natural disasters. HAARP is an attractive target for conspiracy theorists because "its purpose seems deeply mysterious to the scientifically uninformed"."
So either ragingdemo is either scientifically uniformed or there's something going on. The latter is always my natural inclination, having been brought up to question everything. I'm also a natural born supporter of Thom, Ken Ware, 2050-10K and all the other good guys. Can't understand people like Global. I once lived next door to a lady in Texas who was absolutely conviced tha Fox News was fair and balanced (because they said so, I suppose).
Aliceinwonderland, HAARP is High frequency Active Auroral Research Program.
It's interesting what wikipedia says about it:
"HAARP has been blamed by conspiracy theorists for a range of events, including numerous natural disasters. HAARP is an attractive target for conspiracy theorists because "its purpose seems deeply mysterious to the scientifically uninformed"."
So either ragingdemo is scientifically uniformed or there's something going on. The latter is always my natural inclination, having been brought up to question everything. I'm also a natural born supporter of Thom, Ken Ware, 2050-10K and all the other good guys. Can't understand people like Global. I once lived next door to a lady in Texas who was absolutely conviced that Fox News was fair and balanced (!!) (because they said so, I suppose).
Dear Alice...You Thom and the rest can talk this to death as many times as you all like to but at the end of the day there are those who either born into it self made billionaire or however it's those that reach that level that soon fall prey to there own ego and the arrogance that level of greed buys . It's just a sad disgraceful shame that wisdom empathy or compassion in even the smallest amount was never even a concideration unless it's a member of his or her own family but even then is that really what it is can a person turn wisdom or empathy on and off remember many of these billionaires are members of chuches or is it that they feel anyone who makes an hourly wage is somehow less than a human being and because they can purchase political power and hourly wage earners can't maybe they feel above everyone else, I've worked for some very wealthy "OLD MONEY" Westchester county NY people and everyone of them in some way or another proved that To much cash and power does tend to give people a GOD LIKE complex that only get worse as time moves on call it mega greed call it cash Language call it whatever you like they still feel above everyone else and feel fine buying political favor Judges, Senators hell Alice even the Whitehouse can be bough just what do you think happened in 2000 .... It's all very perverted very ugly and when it happens those less cash flush pay dearly with the poor paying with there lives... Thats very very ugly..
Sir..What these people have done over the course of the last 40 yrs to our once proud Honorable US Government process was put into play with just a memorandem by a very old cranky right wing soon to be appointed Supreme court Judge and as it made it's way through the wheels of industry and our very own elected officials along with much legal wizardry a great effort was put forth to UNDO the Regulation the Taxes even the "New Deal" nothing was left untouched Corporate funded think tanks sprang up over night bills were crafted the Major news media outlets greased and the wheels set in motion but whats really hard to follow was how in GODS name all this was accomplished directly under the huge nose of all Federal Law enforcement ALL ethics commitees without nobody saying a word or lifting a finger to stop any of it or call it what it was ...It just all somehow happened Magically until we woke up where WE THE PEOPLE are today ... Sorry I'm not buying any of it I might have been born at night but it surely wasn't last night these criminals who call themselves incumbent elected officials cost this nation and it's Tax payers trillions of dollars thousands of lost lives and all for what can you please tell me it wasn't for something as vulgar as greed , tell Me something what exactly does it say about the Caliber of the elected officials who set this up or allowed it to unfold and what punishement would you concider just ? We know all there names it just takes the will of many to exact repayment ..I'm ready.
I believe that nothing would have changed the swing in politics (c.1920s-1940s) without massive unrest and demonstrations since our political system can so easily be corrupted by big money. Even left-wing/liberal politicians can easily be bought off if they come to believe that it is futile to fight against those powers; and, if they hope to keep their jobs they had better play ball with those with all the money and power. Then, they have to pretend even harder (through words...not actions) to represent their liberal constituents. They know that they can always use the vote-for-the-least-evil strategy in the next election.
In order for the top 1% to maintain their control over the masses they know that they need to do it by manipulating what they think and how they act. They know that the masses could, at any time, overthrow them and make them paupers (and they would be lucky if they didn't lose their heads in the process). Yes, the initial struggle by those in power would create quite a mess...but they would end up losing their heads in the end all the same. I hope it never happens in the US. No one wants to see that happen for sure. But, when things look bleak enough it could very well come to pass. Just like all the leaders in those countries like Iran (overthrow of the Shah), Libya (Ghadafi), Egypt (Mubarak)(Morsi?), and soon to be.. Syria (Assad) ... when the people are backed into a corner..starving, the wealthy elite arrogantly live it up. What will it take to push Americans over the edge to the same kind of struggles? Sacrificing social programs like Social Security, Medicare, etc? Rising supermarket prices to unaffordable levels while they do hardly anything to reduce Pentagon spending or don't raise taxes on the wealthy? Loved ones dying because they can't afford medical care? Many Americans are losing hope and feel boxed in...many Americans are even committing suicide or resorting to other forms of violence. Why would they not, as in other countries, turn that against the ruling elite? Isn't it inevitable?
The psychology of making many people believe they all have the ability to make it to the top as well keeps some people in line. Scare tactics like leaking the story of 500 Million rounds of hollow point bullets may also be part of the psychological manipulation of the masses.
This is especially true of the few percentage points just below the top 1%..they are almost there and don't want any obstacles to prevent them from making it too. They are used as a buffer between the top 1% and the hordes of "just getting by" who may not yet quite be starving in the streets. The "just getting by"..the 95% are not yet sufficiently downtrodden to realize they are next. The stark realism hasn't hit them yet. But it will! The trend is definitely in that direction. And many of them can be conquered and divided using Propagandistic outlets like Fox (so-called News) and CNN...
Shows like Fareed Zakaria, on CNN, have nothing but right wing nuts spouting the Republican talking points of the necessity of cutting social programs. Sometimes they don't say it right out ("cut social programs") but they will strongly hint cutting social programs. And one thing you never, ever hear from these people...we need to cut Pentagon spending. The two things that drove America into such a financial mess was the stupid illegal wars in the middle east and tax breaks for the rich. Excuse me...other very big things: repeal of Glass-Steagall Act, letting Mortgage and Real Estate scamsters and Wall Street Ponzi and Derivative schemers get away with trillons of dollars...and bailing out the criminal schemers that lost other people's money. The social programs have nothing to do with the terrible state of our economy today.
The wealthy have, from the very beginning, plotted to make government (and they mean the government that helps to protect the non-wealthy) so small that it could be drowned in a bathtub. They have plotted all these years to destroy social programs...social security..medicare..medicade, etc. Now they want to get their greedy hands on the Social Security funds to gamble them in Wall Street Ponzi Schemes. They want to "privatize" our Social Security....put it all on number 13 black of the Wall Street Roulett Wheel. It will inevitably go just as bust as all those other Wall Street scams. In a couple of weeks, we'll find out just how much of Obama's bravado is blustery BS. The "Fiscal Cliff" is BS.
And I agree with you "ragingdemo", so lighten up... Sheesh! What I still don't quite get is why you need to cop a demeanor that comes across like you assume nobody but you understands the crap that's going on and how we all are effected. Is this the reason you're so antagonistic towards Thom and me and this whole discussion?! No need to compete with others like that, just to get a point across. This isn't some contest just one of us is supposed to win. I simply believe it's good for everyone's mental health to swap notes, opinions, perspectives and life stories relating to the socioeconomic shit storm we're in, because it is stressful and it sucks, and because sometimes getting different takes on it can be helpful. If "talking it to death" is how you choose to characterize it, please remember, participateion here is not mandatory.
Thom Hartmann is no slouch. What's more, he's attracted very bright minds into this conversation. Let's not forget- we're all in this together, like it or not. Might as well make the best of it. - Alice I.W.
Thank you, "mcowley01", for enlightening me to HAARP. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the acronyms constantly blowing in my direction...
I actually liked most of what "ragingdemo" had to say. Even that peculiar writing style of his kinda appeals to me. But whenever anyone starts coming down on Thom Hartmann, it bugs me; especially when not enough specifics are given to comprise a coherent argument with any solid basis.
Thom has it all together; I can never hear too much of his take on any subject. Not many commentators I can say that about nowadays...
Having just locked horns with Ken Ware for a brief interlude (which was peacefully & amicably resolved), I still view him as a kindred spirit. I've enjoyed reading his entries, along with Palindromedary's, Loren Bliss's and No Fraud's. This most definitely is a cool blog.
When it comes to Global and his ilk, I'm with you pal. However I'm grateful to have the input of conservatives like him on this blog. Gives us a great sample of authentic Tea Party sound bites, talking points and bull crap to refute at our leisure, from every conceivable angle. I've had plenty of fun with that already. And we even get someone to pick on! (Heh-heh... ain't that special.) Peace, love an' grooviness! - Aliceinwonderland
Who causes wars, and why? How about even World Wars? So we had a major stock market crash in 1929, a result of a few extremely wealthy people gambling big time creating financial schemes, and suckering in millions of other hopeful Americans that they would also "make it big". Big bankers and corporations were scheming to create situations that would make them even wealthier.
History often seems to repeat itself..just like in the 1920s the scamsters were using other people's money, luring people into believing that they needed to gamble their money in the stock market, buy huge mortgages using "creative" financing...never mind rumors of "bubbles" bursting or what had happened in the 1920s. Get in while the gettin's good! And people fell for it. And, of course, the few scammers took advantage.
War makes a hell of a lot of money for a few people manipulating us into wars, and often, irrespective of the outcome. War also tends to distract from what the financial tricksters are doing to us right here at home.
It was known by a few in Europe and America that Japan had been pillaging Manchuria and China and then the rest of South East Asia for over 50 years stealing all their gold, jewels, and anything else of worth and hording it...stashing it away. Trillions of dollars worth of gold was buried in over a hundred mines in the Philippines by forced Filipino and American POW laborers who were murdered and buried in those mines. The US and Marcos got most of it. But there is still a lot of undiscovered gold buried or sunk in Philippine waters just waiting to be found by treasure hunters...but don't fall for buying maps from a Filipino...they're fake. Oh, and look out for the booby trap explosive and lethal gas bombs buried in those mines.
It was also known that Germany was doing the same in it's sphere of influence...stealing all the gold and jewels and paintings and everything else of worth from the Jews and others it had conquered. After Western bankers and corporations made lots of money while doing business with the Japanese and the Nazis (eg: IBM tabulating machines), they reaped a whole lot more after the fall of Nazi Germany and Japan. Read about Operation Golden Lily and Black Eagle Fund. Ever wonder what funded the cold war? Ever wonder where all that gold bullion in the US came from? And why does the US "hold" gold deposits of other countries? According to Max Keiser..60% of all German gold is being held at the Fed in New York (episode 358). "The German court of auditors..has demanded that the Bundesbank undertake an audit of its gold reserves. In an 'audit-the-fed' style effort, the court wants to ensure that the nearly 3400 tons of gold is in fact in existence - 'because stocks have never been checked for authenticity and weight'." --zerohedge.com "The powerful implication here is that German gold in London was sold a the behest of the United States and in exchange Germany took title to United States gold vaulted in the United States."--GATA.org And other countries are similar.
Then it was the Cold War, Korean War, Vietnam War, and all the other little LIC (Low Intensity Conflict) wars. They were all wars...but none really called wars since even Truman didn't even want to call the Korean War a War. Then it was the Drug War, and now the war on terrorists. These are all manipulations by those with all the money to drain even more money away from those who can least afford it. The American banking system would collapse if it wasn't for laundering illegal drug money. And illegal drug prices would shoot down to practically nothing if they were not "illegal". There would be no drug wars. Take the illegality of drugs away and you take the profit out of it.
At least, after WW2 and the Korean War...the wealthy were heavily taxed..as they should have been..(it was their wars, after all, even though they propagandized us into believing they were defending democracy..or some other BS). And before you unwittingly defend the indefensible war mongers...look into the real causes of these wars...what led up to them...what arrogant and greedy leaders did in support of their arrogant and greedy ruling elite.
I'd say the majority of people in the US are really liberals to the largest extent but are conservative in a "wedge issue" extent. The "wedge issues" tend to divide and conquer and are played out very well by the conservatives as they own the major news media and can pretty much control the propaganda.
I believe that most of us, here, have basic agreements although we all have certain, what others would call peccadilloes (wedge issues?), perhaps, in our thinking. None of us will likely think 100% alike and I suppose the trick is to not let small differences stand between our primary goals of survival and pursuit of happiness. It doesn't take much to trigger someone's ire sometimes. But if we all realize that our similarities are much greater than our differences then we may be able to pull together and eventually defeat our real enemies.
"Remember what the dormouse said
Feed your head, feed your head "
lyrics from Jefferson Airplane-White Rabbit
Aliceinwonderland - Old, grouchy and a cynic! Ha! I am 60 and to some people that is old, I call it experienced. Grouchy, no I am not grouchy, but I guess some people are more sensitive than others like me. Cynic I am not, a REALIST I am. I call the game the way I see it being played. The demonstrators did little to end the war and if you go back and look at the time line starting in the early to mid-60's to the point of complete withdrawal from Vietnam was 11+years. We defunded the war in 1975 and allowed the South Vietnamese government to go it alone and the North defeated the South with the weaponry supplied by China and Russia. As in most wars we have fought we eventually turn our backs on our comrades. As far as still being in a fighting war without the protesters, that never would have happened. Take a look at South Korea and the fighting stopped their within three years. We still have a small ground military there and we have our military personnel in Japan in the event it should go hot again. Money is the primary motivator in all the wars we have fought and it is generally a gauge of how successful we have been. When we talk about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars we also talk about the money factor and how long we will be funding those countries once we no longer have troops on the ground. The Dept. of Homeland Security purchased 350,000,000 rounds of ammunition and their function is to maintain security against those who would disrupt business as usual here in the U.S.. They did not buy it to confront Canada or Mexico, it was bought in the event they have to maintain the American public, should civil disobedience occur. Why, so we cannot disrupt business as usual in any form we might take. So, the politicians are more concerned with riots than with marches. I believe it is a good thing to have peaceful marches to express our concerns, but that is only a concern for the politicians if it is an election year. I believe the messages sent to the White House are never read, but are scanned by computers for key words that might contain threats to our government. Not a cynic, a realist.
Excellent point regarding language.
Ever read Howard Zinn's "You Can't Be Nutural On A Moving Train"? Ever read any of Zinn's work? I really like the forward he wrote for his book "The People's History of The United States". There he addresses the misunderstandings between facts and perspectives.
You forgot Daniel Elsberg and the famous "Pentagon Papers" and how that too played a key role in ending the U.S's involvment in the Vietnam War. Along with exposing Nixion's Adminastration.
Elsberg's actions were certainly "in protest" of what the corrupt U.S. Government was doing...which was basically misleading the American people. Not much different than today...Pvt. Manning, and Wikileaks founder Julian Assange. Without Whistle Blowers, Conscientious Objectors, and in general, everyday people that exercise their moral obligations as watch dogs and stand in protest against the corrupt actions of Government(s) we would never have seceded from England.
Oh I certainly do agree that ALL wars are motivated by money and the U.S. Government is not void from this. But I do not agree with you that protest do not work. First of all the main pupose of any protest is to draw attention and inform the masses. True the Occupy Movment seems weak in that it dosent have a "party leader" but it certainly has the voice of a mass of people from all walks of life and it still plays a huge role in informing people (voters).
The United States has a long history of striff and struggle, and for a brief portion of that history we were Of the People, By the People and For the People. That is until We the People allowed our Supreme Court to rule that corporations are a people. And it will be through protest, be it millions in the streets around the country or letters to news papers and elected officials, that turns that ruling around.
It makes sense that, in this world of computer technology, that every piece of information that goes to any business or government office is scanned for keywords to get the general drift of what is being communicated and then summary reports are accessed by lowly workers in business or government who further filter them into simple data (a percentage, perhaps) that higher ups use to make decisions.
We all have received form letters or emails from both businesses and government. Your initial letter or email did nothing more that activate another computer program to printout canned responses...and the computer enters your name to make it seem personal. But it is not.
Actually, Echelon works similarly...they collect and store billions of pieces of data communications every day..phones, email, what programs you're watching on Dish or DirectTV (if you have cable...or if you actually hook up your Dish Network* phone lines used, ostensibly, to update, but covertly... to spy)...whatever! And, they use computer dictionaries to flag certain words...then if a positive flag happens, the whole document or conversation is put before an analyst for analysis. And they probably have quite a few analysts who speak a variety of languages. The words for the dictionary computer can be decided on for that time period and fed into the computer. Analysts can learn a lot about how our government REALLY works...like Sibil Edmonds!
I knew this way back in the 70s when I worked at a government office dealing with social security. I worked on the archival equipment that photographed letters that people sent in to their congressmen/women..or the President...and turned them into micro-strips that were put into readers located all through-out those buildings..the micro-photos on those strips could be accessed by id number controlled by a central computer...that I also maintained. And hard copies could be retrieved from the strips stored on any of the strip readers as well as viewed on a screen. I was able to read many of those documents and realized what was going on. The intended recipients had aides, or workers, who would scan the letters and any mention of "social security" would tell the worker to send the letters off to social security to be photographed, micro-stripped, and assigned the id number. I told my dad who was a very well educated man who dealt with the government a lot and who had written many times to various government officials how this operated and he was somewhat taken aback at this. He, like so many other people, thought their letters or email would actually be read by the recipient...or at least that the recipient would actually get the message somehow.
I suspect that with the current technology, if you write a letter to your Congressman/woman, or the President, that computers will sort, and record addresses from the envelopes (and since some people's handwriting is practically impossible for computer scanners to read they may have an operator assisted correction equipment..which they also had been using way back in the 70s in the Pentagon..optical character recognition system -OCR), automatically sort them, open them, scan for key words to get the general drift (and you spent so much time and effort in trying to spell correctly and word your document so that "they" will think you are intelligent and educated), and tally up into categories.
With email, this is even easier.
Then, computers will send you a form letter telling you how much they appreciate your participation in good government, put your name on the letter and automatically mail them to you. You have not, in any real sense, influenced anyone..you have just wasted a lot of time and a stamp if you mailed a letter.
The end result is that, perhaps the President, or Congressmen/women will glance at their computer screen and see a percentage of people who agree or disagree with an issue and then the President or Congressman/woman will utter some expletive and include the word "idiots!" and continue fund raising from rich capitalists who are the real influence in this so-called "democracy". They are the real influence because the system is corrupt to the extent that most politicians believe that only money matters. The people... they can lie to and use blustery rhetoric, and campaigners, to convince the people that their only alternative is to vote for the least evil candidate.
*You don't actually have to connect your phone lines to the DishTV receiver...unless you want to update the software on your receiver. Also, occasionally, Dish will send out a "bullet" to break the reception in case you have a pirated id card stuck in your receiver. In that case you need to connect to the phone line to recover. I don't know if information about your viewing habits are stored in memory..in which case that would defeat the paranoid attempt at preventing Dish to see what you are watching. It stands to reason, however, if you are constantly connected to the phone line that they would be able to monitor, real-time, what you are watching. As your Dish receiver and antenna do not transmit, that I know of, just receives information, a connected phone-line would make it easy to spy on your viewing habits.
Perhaps I am wrong, but unless you can show me how our government's policies have changed it is still just an undocumented theory. As far as Ellsberg goes the only change was the fact that Nixon would resign for being part of a crime that had taken place and he did not want to go to trial. Wall St. is stronger than ever and the protesters have not changed policy decisions on Wall St. or in Washington. The only real changes have been new laws restricting protesters from various types of protesting and where they can protest. Manning and Assange have not changed any policies concerning Washington and the only difference is that Manning will serve time for revealing classified information he swore an oath he would not reveal such information. Assange and Wikkileaks have not changed any policies by the Fed.'s and he is facing charges of releasing classified information.The Whistle blowers on Wall St. have had an affect where a few people have been charged with felonies and the rest of the Banksters are doing the same business as they have been all along. NOTHING has changed since all the protesting across the country and the police have had the opportunity to practice their crowd control methods. A few cops have been fired for excessive force and that is about it. The protesters did not bring the war in Vietnam to an early closure; it was the costs of the war that brought the war to an end. We virtually turned our back on S. Vietnam when congress cut all funding for the war in 75', leaving the South defenseless to save money. The protests did bring attention to several situations that our government was involved in, but no policy changes were implemented. I think it is a good thing we practice freedom of speech through our protests, but there has been very little change do to the protesting. Greece and Spain have had major protests and it accomplished nothing in real terms. The same can be said about the Wall St. protests. Governments listen to the people with the cash and Europe is a perfect example of who governments listen to. Unless you’re willing to go to physical war with any government, nothing changes. The Banksters control political policy in America, not the citizens who protest. The only real power is in the ballot box during an election year and we have had success in that area, but just marginally compared to what money has been able to accomplish in our country. Sad to say, but true
Ken I do not disagree that our government has their own agenda set forth by the Rothchilds, and a few other corrupt capitalist families that "run the show" and bet on both sides of the battle field.
As well I agree with you that most Americans know more about the Kardashians (sp?) than they do about Pvt. Manning and Assange. However I salute Pvt. manning and find what he did to be heroic.
I come from a career military family on both sides and when I graduated high school I followed suit. I was in the Army for 8 years...Eventually, I woke up and Declared myself as a Conscientious Objector in 99 and did not reinlist. To me what Pvt Manning did was to actually serve his country.
When we take that oath...it is about protecting the United Staesand its people from tyranny. However our government IS the very tyranny we are suppose to destroy.
I still to this day stand by and support our soldiers, however I could not continue to be a pawn for the war machine. `Nother soldier...`Nother sucker...Not me! I refused to be apart of a plot to destroy those that are of no threat to our wellbeing. As well I refused to be a part of a system that endangers and dismantles the saftey and liberties of its own people with lies.
...as far as the Occupy Movement goes...The laws and policies they are protesting will not change over night...but they have had an impact. As I said earlier; protestings first agenda is to organize and inform.
As Gandhi once said; "First they ignor you, then they ridicule you...then they attack you...Then you win."
Trying to change/reform laws and policies of any kind; be it our economic system, education system, Civil system, Justice system, Energy policy, Foreign policy, etc. is unfortunatly a slow arduous process, but and it is a BIG BUT anything worth balancing and maintaning for the good of ALL is worth the time and energy that it takes; it's just sad that "doing right" takes 10x the effort and time than doing wrong.
The military, itself, is an organization that has to follow orders otherwise it would cease to be useful as a military organization...but then so was the Wehrmacht but even worse was the SS who committed many atrocious war crimes. Some, after the war, were even selected for hanging...others were selected to work for the US Government...building rockets, and such.
I wonder what would happen to our Military and high officials if some superior entity invaded and took over our government? UN? Get outta town! China? They might stop shipping us iphones, laptops, and missile parts. And I suspect they would have ample ammunition to convict many American war criminals. They too could, perhaps, force American citizens to dig up the graves of and view the remains of America's victims all throughout Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere.
Now, you can't even see the body bags of our dead soldiers being brought back from the Middle East. Our major main stream news media won't even give a hint about the atrocities our military has committed over there...no scenes of bloody children crying out in agony...but you get a better view on alternative news channels like Al Jazeera, Link TV, FSTV, RT and Wikileaks. You have a better understanding of the realities by watching those channels than you do watching corporate and CIA/Pentagon-controlled news media.
The soldiers are not, themselves, necessarily criminal....they are doing what they are ordered to do by the war criminals who command them and that goes all the way up to the top..where the buck (blame) is supposed to stop. But, if you look closer you will realize that the President is not the top...he is largely just a puppet.
The soldiers have been just as beguiled into committing atrocities against civilians as the German soldiers were. There are some, of course, who were more eager than others to murder people. But, of course, in our moment of brazen hypocrisy, during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, we coined the phrase.."just following orders is no excuse". No politician or Joint Chiefs of Staff wants us to think about the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials.
Maybe one possible reason why it took over a decade,despite the demonstrations, was that the demonstrations were not violent enough on the part of the demonstrators. Sure, a lot of people would have been killed (and a couple were murdered by the National Guard at the DNC in Kent State); but, then perhaps a lot of people would have been saved...especially many of the 56,000 combat troops that died and the over a million Vietnamese that were murdered by our military. But then, back then, demonstrations were mostly about anti-Vietnam war. We didn't suffer the kinds of horrible economic conditions back then as has happened in the last 30 years. People were still working and making a decent living with no propaganda of "fiscal cliffs"..no massive bailouts to the Wall Street scamsters and banksters and no threats to our social programs back then. People were getting health care insurance as part of compensation from their employers...and their jobs were not being shipped overseas. They were all mostly making a decent wage for their labor. The masses were not in a overall feeling of despair back then as now.
Nixon was really scared, as it was, that the demonstrators would grow in numbers and become very violent. This was proven in statements he made that are now part of archived history. Yes, he was worried about being indicted for crimes but he was even more worried that the demonstrators would burst into the White House and lynch the son-of-a-stitch in his Oval Office.
No one wants to see violence. And they pick up on that which lets them continue their plunder; but, that seems to be the only language that many people in power seem to understand. And unless there is the possibility of that happening...the politicians will continue to use rhetoric, lies, and deceit to keep the people in line.
FDR would never have had the teeth to convince other politicians, and their wealthy puppet masters, to make reforms if it hadn't been for a long stretch of violence and fear that it could get a lot worse...reminiscing the French Revolution, perhaps.
There could be a shift, however, as evidenced by the several political wins that, on the basis of overwhelming political contributions of the opposition, the opposition lost. We need to keep this up...and if the world is still here in 2014* and if Americans overwhelmingly boot out the right wing culprits we may have a chance of avoiding violence. I certainly hope so.
I also praise and support Bradley Manning and Julian Assange for exposing the war crimes that evil men did in our name. What Bradley Manning did was honor the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial mandate that "just following orders is no excuse". Bradley Manning is a hero!
*The world is supposed to end (yet again) on Dec 21, 2012 according to the crazies who believe in the end of the Mayan Calender foreboding the world's destruction on that date. Throw in the planet Niburu, a few hark the herald angles sing, a hocus pocus, and a black cat's meow at the stroke of midnight! Damn, start the count down d-12 days and counting.....who's gonna have an end of the world party on Dec 21, 2012? Or should that be on the eve of Dec. 20, 2012?
Yesssss! Well said!! Bang`n the nail on the head!!!
Danke Schoen, Muchas Gracias, and Shukran!
Ken, you come across as a grouch when you accuse another person of "self delusion", or make intrusive, caustic remarks such as: "Sorry to bust your bubble of self worth..." Not exactly (ahem!) diplomatic, my friend! We all call it as we see it and oftentimes must agree to disagree, and just leave it at that. We progressives aren't so in lockstep with our thinking as those ditto heads on the neo-con side of the fence. We should accept occasional differences of opinion as simply routine. Even when interpretations of reality sharply contradict, we don't have to be rude to each other. No need to make this personal.
Palindromedary says it well, reminding us how our similarities outweigh our differences and that we need to stop bickering with each other so we can direct our focus on the real enemy. Because whatever our conflicts, it doesn't sound like there's much disagreement among us over who that real enemy is.
Were there ever a time for us all to set our differences aside and come together, it is now. Remember comrades, nothing scares these toadies more than the prospect of us "little" people united against them. As Palindromedary points out, they are nothing without us and it is THEY who are dependent on US.
Palindromedary also makes some excellent points about the many ways those in positions of power have manipulated and controlled the "masses". I too have given this much thought, while wondering about the limits of what people here will tolerate from a system rigged so completely against us.
Another thing you'll never hear me dispute is the assertion that these wars are all about MONEY, about feeding the military industrial complex and all its profiteers. I have not, nor will I ever, defend the warmongers- they who are the bane of our collective existence and evil incarnate! I challenge anyone to identify a single legitimate war this country has engaged in, during my 62 years on this planet. (My hunch was right, Ken; we are almost the same age.)
I've not read Howard Zinn's books, I'm embarrassed to say, although I've heard him speak many times. I have always wanted to get a copy of his People's History Of The United States and read it cover to cover, but never quite got around to it. Oh well, it's on my wish list... - Aliceinwonderland
You got that right sister...What makes us powerful is our ability to unite and stand together as comrades in solidarity, regardless of race, religion, sexual oriantation, financial status, etc...I have a saying; 99%+1%=100% accountable. Those who do not accept this tend to be the problem. Sure there will be differences of opinion, that's life. What seems to confuse many people (Left or Right) about the Occupy Movement - which is a bubbleing coldren of all walks of life - is that they are not a Left or Right philosophical movement.
Some of my wealthier friends, comprised of Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, side with the movement when it comes to enforcing regulations on Wall St, prosecuting those that commited fraud, abolishing the bush tax cuts, and increasing wages to a "liveable" level; which I am happy to say two friends that own successful small businesses have starting wages of $16.00 per hour; also quarterly production bonuses (for all employees), medical benefits, and 15 days paid vacation.
Some of these friends even support a Universal Healthcare system, and improving government grants for education. Then again these friends don't wall themselves off from Main st...You wanna know why???Because they haven't forgotten where they came from, and that there are many people who are to be recognized and compansated for building their businesses success.
They also understand that not everyone wants to go to a University. We need skilled trade workers and people to drive trucks, pilot ships and trains to move goods, work in manufacturing, If everybody goes to Harvard business school who is going to build a house, or pick up the garbage? These are honest and important jobs; just as those that require fancy and often overrated degrees.
I have absolutly no problem what-so-ever with someone making a ton of money, owning two Benzes, a Bently, a yacht, and a jet. Just remember who keeps the wheel rolling while you are streached out sunning yourself token' a Monte Cristo on your tropical island.
And as you pointed out; No one person "earns" $30k and hour...It takes the whole hive to make honey and keep the queen alive! Best to keep your workers happy and healthy by compansating them an honest livable wage for their blood, sweat, and tears. ciao
Thanks for your kind words, Aliceinwonderland...you're right, we all have to hang together on the most important things. It's perfectly ok to have differences and we shouldn't get too upset over them otherwise we are just shooting ourselves in the foot..or, perhaps, more like committing suicide...let's not do the wealthy any favors.
I've read a little of both Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. I bought and read various books from both a long time ago. I especially liked Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. One of the most memorable, and sad, stories was that of the Trail of Tears..the forced relocation and movement of a number of Native American tribes from the warmer southeastern parts of the US across to the west...many died of exposure..including 4000 of the 15,000 Cherokee Indians. All because greedy white men refused to get along with them and wanted their lands. And then there was the story of the United States first use of weapons of mass destruction...using biological warfare...against the American Indians when they purposely exposed and infected tribes with blankets exposed with smallpox. Whole families were wiped out. The US has a very sordid and disgraceful history that only people like Howard Zinn, and few others, have ever brought to the surface.
The book can be read on-line:
or, if you like audio books...
but, of course, there is really nothing like having a hard copy to add to your library...besides...the royalties help out Howard Zinn's heirs...which is totally worth it. It definitely encourages that kind of behavior which is most desirable. In fact, I might even buy another hard copy book..if I can find one...the paperback version I have is falling apart.
You all have good talking points and I am impressed by how disagreement has spurred others on to make comments concerning their experience and views on our government. But with all respect I still contend the government fears us about as much as a hungry wolf fears the sheep he is about to have for a meal. The number of Americans killed in the Vietnam War was 58,000 and the North lost 1.1 million military personnel and with an estimation of between .5 to 2 million civilians killed. I just checked the figures via Explorer to make sure. If personnel decide for themselves which laws they will obey and which laws they will not, all discipline breaks down and you no longer have a military that is functional. A soldier can disobey a direct order to do something illegal and the military courts will determine the legitimacy of such an act. (i.e. shooting a civilian during war) Manning just simply took it upon himself to break his oath to the military and therefore should be punished at some level or discipline can break down and precedence for such an act could have far reaching negative consequences to the military as a whole.
I have a good sense about people and can usually tell who has a compassionate heart and a sharp mind...You friend have both.
In my early years of education I was board; here in Fl. many high school coaches end up teaching classes that they have no business teaching, and that is unfortunate for the students, unless of course you are an athlete.
Anyway my history teacher sucked; it wasn't untill I was at West Point that I begain to discover and learn the meat & potatos of our country. It was Howard Zinn's A People's Histroy of the United States and the enthusiasm of an actual Histroy Professor who sparked a fire under my butt to learn the truths about our country's rich and - as you put it - sordid past. Eight years later in the spring of 1999, after having experienced and witnessed first hand the the globally destructive ways of the U.S. Government, I declared myself a Consciencious Objector and left the Army. Then in 2009 I got to attend one of Howard Zinn's lectures on the History of War and Peace. For 90 min. the room sat and listened with complete attention. I was so glad to have had the opportunity to see him speak in person. He died 1 year later.
It gives me great pleasure to know that more and more students are being introduced Howard Zinn and his book "A People's History of the United States".
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. What type of disapline do feel he should receive?
If Pvt. Manning should be punished, don't you agree that the classified information Pvt. Manning leaked should lead to a trial of war crimes commited by the Bush Adminastration and Obama Adminastration. It is one thing to give information to aid the enemy...Pvt. Manning did not do that; nor did wikileaks for that matter.
Furthermore just because something is written as a law does not mean it is an absolute...Especially when it allows far greater crimes to be commited.
Adventure through the rabbit hole, with smiles cheerful thoughts in a time past that was not always fun. Here am I to offer my opinion of language in today’s electronic mainstream journalism can be defined as warped timed deception and completely biased beyond what is good for America. Those within this blog see it and like me want to rid of it.
The Indian stuff strikes a accord that resonates found memories, personal or other. Also, recall from a book by Ruth Beebe Hill, “Hanta Yo”. Very interesting about the Plains Indian during the 1800’s sometime just before Lincoln signed the land act to preserve the union and created the Union Pacific Railroad. There is a whole lot of history there. A Republican railroad?
For me words and feelings are unusual with this message. As a Vietnam veteran finding out the Navajo language was used during WWII helping to defeat the Nazi tyranny. Knowing war, now plus understanding giving total respect for an Indian nation language that baffled the Nazi. One of my favorite Navajo Chants is “Yeha-Noha (Wishes of Happiness & Prosperity)”
If you have chances try to find it. It is video combination song with what sounds like an old man done in a popular style. In my weirdness sometimes study the mathematics of greats like Laplace, Fourier, and Gauss while listing to Yeha Noha, weird eh?
For me, summing up Thom’s theme in the message; Republicans are giving in Michigan what is simply constitutionally antithetical.
Sure the first amendment has free speech so the door is open for debate to support or oppose the constitution but when one is elected and taking or making oath to both the States constitution and the national constitution but failing to support the national constitution the media is a total failure in calling these political persons out that make and take both sides.
What’s worse the Democratic Party lets it happen. For years, besides, legions of academic individuals and institutions play theater with journalism royalties in appearance interviews and book selling all the while Middle America is in a depression of more than just spirit. Yes, since those in the know, like BDO, know America is in a depression not a recession. America is on the cliff going to fall to economic hell. Quite an extraordinary display of language in fear mongering day after day while cable can also broadcast miracle on 34 th street to determine if Santa Claus is insane or exists. Likely leading to the proposition that Jesus does not exist too. Who knows maybe the movie was funded by Richard Murdock and the Wahhabi decades ago. LOL.
The most antithetical Constitutional position is secession. But the real kicker is all those states that want to part from the union, from what I understand do not participate in a fair tax to the commonwealth of the system. In many discussions it is acknowledged Red states have a history of being the taker of taxes rather than the makers of taxes.
This all begs the question. When will these states go so America can finally have another party that is competitive? They will certainly just diminish. One thing is for sure, in one signature, Lincoln created a whole lot of jobs.
Soo oh oh the government without question can create jobs.
You who, Republicans did you get that. Laughter giggle yowee. Like the Geico pig, Maxwell shouts in those commercials I keep switching off. Is there a way to rid of that lizard???
No Fraud - There is one very important part of this whole Manning case that most of us leave out, that aid to the enemy does not have to include specific details that could hamper our ability to wage war such as when an operation will take place or the type of aircraft we will be using on a specific mission. It goes further than that in giving aid to the enemy. The information released by Manning and Aussange could have very well affected the operational readiness or the ability for our troops to wage war with 100% reediness. Whether it is the Grunt or Marine on the ground or an Aircrew in the sky to Sailors on a navy vessel their state or mine is an essential part of a warrior. And it does not only affect the combat troops but also the support personnel in every unit of the military. They unwittingly could have had a strong and adverse effect on the MORALE of all troops after hearing information that could affect the way they view their commanders or even the Commander in Chief in the White House. This as we know is a very effective way to diminish the reediness and ability of all troops. In WWII the Japanese had Tokyo Rose who was an American citizen working for the Japanese Military. She had a great effect on the morale of all the fighting men in the Pacific Campaign. She was hung after we had won the war. Jane Fonda had the same effect on our Troops and Airmen in the Vietnam theatre and those in countries we had our air bases located. Thailand was an area where our B-52's flew from and it had an effect on these troops as well, it also affected all the sailors on the carriers and support ships. She went to N. Vietnam to embrace the Communists and to tell our troops they were fighting a losing war and were killing children, just to mention a few things she said to the World news organizations. Both of these women gave aid to the enemy as American citizens. Fonda was never charged. So if Manning or Assaunge helped to demoralize American Troops they did in fact give aid to the enemy. Aid and I do not believe I am pushing the limits when I say they very well have given aid to our enemies while at war with them. Manning has been treated in a way that is wrong and should be looked into if he is found guilty or acquitted. If convicted he should serve a short prison term and be stripped of his rank and all pay. Again I believe the Marines who have guarded him since his arrest should be investigated for mistreatment of a prisoner. Unfortunately the Marines guarding him hold him in great disdain and see him as a traitor to the United States and our Military. If it is found that Aussange is found to be guilty of the same crime by a court, he too should be incarcerated for a short period. My point is giving aid to our enemies can take on various forms and we should not dismiss the MORALE of our fighting men as trivial. Whether or not they have indeed given aid to the enemy is something for the Military Courts or the Federal Courts to decide.
Three Cheers for the moral of whistle blowers and truth seekers!!!
It use to be the truth would set you free...as long as you don't have anything important to say.
Sometimes the truth is hard to accept, but for a soldier their is nothing worse than discovering the very government you work for lies and cheats the American People and tortures and murders innocent men women and children. If you have to lie and cheat and torture inorder to "wage war" - as you put it - than maybe it isn't the other guy that's the problem to begin with.
There is no doubt in my mind that your generation is still licking its wounds from the lies and corruption of the U.S. government.
Condeming Pvt. Manning for exposing our Governments corrupt ties, and dispicable actions very ugly!!!As is blamming Fonda for speaking out against the Vietnam war and killing innocent people.
My uncle was a combat soldier in Vietnam and received a dishonarable discharge and one year in prison for beating an Officer that was raping a 14 year old Vietnamese girl after slitting her mothers throat.
As soldiers we both know that war is hell, it can make you do crazy things that we never in 10 life times would ever dream of doing. The military labled my Uncle as dishonerable for his actions, yet the rapist murderer officer was never arrested and charged for the crime he commited. Its a f*cked up world!!! That's the kind of bullsh*t that destroys morale!
Yes Pvt Manning leak classified information, but he did it for ALL THE RIGHT REASONS...To protect and serve the very country he loves and cares about.
We've strayed so far off the topic Thom initially selected for discussion, I can't even remember what it was! But there are a number of points Ken Ware has made, concerning Private Manning and Wikileaks, that beg a response. So here goes...
Bradley Manning & Julian Assange are true heroes on the world stage. They should be celebrated, not persecuted, for what they've done. These guys are more deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize than Kissinger or Obama ever were. Seems to me that if justice were actually being served, the folks who would be facing trial are the REAL war criminals - Bush, Cheney & Company - rather than the whistle blowers who exposed them.
If these were legitimate wars waged against real enemies who posed an eminent threat to our freedom & soverignty, I'd be inclined to agree that any act committed which lowered soldiers' morale or somehow hindered our ability to fight would be a terrible thing. But the last war this country participated in that had any legitimacy whatsoever was World War Two,
Well if we all vote to DEMOCRATIZE the House in two years, we might finally get The Employee Free Choice Act passed and set the working class free from some of this Koch funded madness which only leads to even greater concentration of wealth in the hands of a very few.
And I truly do mean madness. I say this with a study in mind, one that shows money only buys happiness up to about $75,000 a year. After this income level people don't report any greater level of happiness. So I think any job creator in favor of The Right to Work for Less Money law needs to be mindful of this study when the madness of greed overcomes their sense of fairness and standard of conduct regarding employees compensation and benefits.
Let's say the owner of a non union company decides he wants an extra couple hundred thousand for himself, it's a stagnant economy with no growth in profits, so a very tempting option is to simply cut that same amount from the company's employee health insurance contribution. He can easily do this because no UNION is there to stop him and what the heck he can blame it on Obama. I'm sure much worse than this is being done all the time, it's called vulture capitalism.
Anyway my real point is the extra income might purchase him a car elevator or another horse but is he any happier? I can assure you his employees are not.
Unrelated, I keep hearing Boehner slurring something about our spending problem. Let's be clear about this, the spending problem was a Republican one...... Bush unfunded tax cuts, unfunded wars, and bankster bailouts to name a few. So go to hell with your so called entitlement cuts. Don't spend my contributions on Cheney's damn war! Let him pay for it, he's one of the few who got rich from it.