The Republican Party self-destructed in front of the entire nation last night...

As Speaker of the House John Boehner failed to get his members in line to vote on a plan to avert the so-called “fiscal cliff.” It was a bad idea to begin with – a plan to let the Bush tax cuts expire for millionaires – but let those same millionaires keep generous tax loopholes, while getting rid of many of the tax breaks used by the middle class. It was another huge giveaway to the rich, but the Republicans Party flew over the cuckoo’s nest and couldn't even stomach passing a very, very modest tax increase on billionaires like the Koch brothers.

In a statement late Tuesday night, Speaker Boehner said he didn't have enough votes within his own party to pass the measure. He then urged President Obama and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to come up with a plan while he sends his Republican House members Christmas vacation. Financial markets are not reacting well to the news. Yesterday’s events in the House made the President’s hand even stronger in negotiations.

A plan to avoid the “fiscal cliff” will not pass out of the House without Democratic support – and everybody knows it now. So it’s time to take cuts to Social Security Insurance benefits off the table, and come up with a deal that’s more in line with what the nation wants, which is for the rich to pay their fair share in taxes and no cuts to social insurance programs. If a few sensible Republicans in the House don’t join Democrats and take this sort of deal, then off the cliff we go, and President Obama’s hand will get even stronger.

Comments

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#1

I wanna apologize to Global, if I may yet, for my gratuitous nastiness to him. I think I mistook a comment of his for something ad homminem so I answered in kind and that started a spiral of invective which I made sure to get the better of. I don't think he meant to be like that at all.

I think Global is dead wrong and possibly a shill but not a real bad guy.

Seems he's got some class, apparently a good bit more than I.

Global's picture
Global 9 years 50 weeks ago
#2

Kend, I think they all forget that the gulf coast of the US has over 17 million barrels per day refining capacity or about 44 percent of this nations capacity. So a pipeline of Canadian crude from our friendly neighbors to the north is just good business. Also, they always forget that these refining (manufacturing) jobs are good paying careers. As opposed to government stimulus dig a hole job. I think Hartmann also thinks it makes sense to export this raw crude right out of the pipeline, forgetting about the process of utilizing these multi-billion dollar refineries to process the raw material into transportation fuels, asphalt, plastics, etc.... Pipelines are the safest and cheapest way to transport.

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 9 years 50 weeks ago
#3

Excellent mixture of political philosophies.
My favorite is the blending of Communism - not the Soviet Union & Bueacratic Totalitarinism that called themselves Marxist...Just treat it as it was invisioned by Marx & Engles; ultimately a society of the freedom of the individual, and rational use of the worlds resources.

Socialism; The use of a Democratic elected Government, to equalize resources and help people.

Last but not least...Anarchism; The suspicion of authority of all governs and a readyness to critisize and rebel against any government that started out balanced between humanity and prosperity but can easily become dictitorial ossified.

Practical??? Not in any immediatly acheivable way...But well worth holding onto as a goal...Good for measure.

As M. Gandhi once said after bloody battles between Muslims and Hindus; "...the world is not ready for true peace, but it is absolutly vital towards our future that we strive to resolve our issues and indifferences nonviolently, mankinds survival depends on it."

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#4

Not a bad guy at all probably and not a shill either.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#5

So much bullshit. The quickest and, really, only way to put money into people's pocket in a reccession in a way that they'll spend it and restart the economy is with a job and ONLY the government is going to create a job in a recession as no one else has a reason to.

Economic studies have shown that a dollar in direct spending is four times as effective as a dollar in tax cuts in creating jobs.

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 9 years 50 weeks ago
#6

You ain't kidd'en.

Some get it.
Some don't.
Those that do, suffer by those that don't.
Those that don't, are Patriotic Capitalist, swear their allegence to a corrupt system that justifies violence and rewards deceit, just as long as it increases profits.
...and the truth shall set you free!

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 9 years 50 weeks ago
#7

Post 58 was ment for post 20 by Mark Sauly

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 9 years 50 weeks ago
#8

Will the real Job Creator please stand up...
The rich are not job creators...They are merely reactors to the economy. Consumerism is what stimulates the economy. Therefore Consumers are the real job creators...It's simple supply and demand. The more consumers there are the more demand; the more demand the more good paying jobs are needed to keep up the supply. Consumers only exist when there are an abundance of high paying middle class jobs. Unfortunatly Business Owners have no loyalty to the American middle class worker as an asset. Instead of increasing wages to keep up with a consumer cost of living...As Henry Ford said; "A good wage is one that allows people to pay the bills and buy my product" ...they have traded good wages for cheap labor and poor quality, just to put even more profit in their pockets.
A strong* jobs market and affordable education is the only way to stimulate the economy. [*Strong meaning large quantity of high paying skilled career jobs with good bennefits.]
As you point out the private sector is hording their accorns, as well they want to dismantle collective bargaining, forcing people to accept lower wages and no benefits...Creating here what they have been doing overseas for over 30 years.
This is not going to create consumer spending.
My wife and I earn a combined gross annual income of 45k. Though we make more than 2 times the poverty level we still struggle to make ends meet. We don't have credit debt nor do we own luxury items and our bills are not above our means; more the problem is inflation...We can not afford to be healthy consumers while keeping up with inflation and the high cost of basic necesseties. Put it another way...We are not helping stimulate the economy as consumers.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#9

Sorry for putting my post at the end all the time. I keep editing, fixing typos and so on.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#10

Pop definitions of those terms are just means to dismiss them. Real definitions are only found in researching the subject.. Anarchism is the belief that people should live without government in a tightly knit community. You are right that it can easily become dictatorial ossified and anarchists must - and genuine anarchists do - guard against it. Marxist theoryy envisioned a state of "pure communism" that society would evolve to after the revolution abolition of private property. With no more private property and thus a strengthening community there would be less and less greed in society and less and less need for the courts, police and prisons, or the state. Thus the state would atrophy from disuse and "wither away" and people would then live in a stateless, classless society of "pure communism".

Some think that Marx borrowed many ideas from the anarchists he was living among and discussing and debating with in Paris in the 1850s. It was not Marx but Lenin that saw the need to establish an iron dictatorship that wouldn't bend or yield or allow dissent. Lenin was a revisionist Marxist and tried to pull off the revolution in a society that was not yet industrialized and thus not yet ready, according to Marx, for revolution. Marx believed communist revolution could not come from dark, superstitious peasants but from the informed, urban proletariat. The Russian peasants were not revolutionary. They had a strong suprstitious belief in the divine right of the czar and the feudal aristocracy and could not be moved toward revolution. Thus Lenin effected a palace revolution, essentially a coup de tat with his vanguard of professional revolutionaries, established a dictatorship and forced his ideological will upon Russia and the peasantry. It was a "palace revolution" not a popular revolution.

There were instances where very nice anarchist, anarcho-communist societies were established. One was in Spain in the1930s during the Spanish Civil War. One of my favorite writers, George Orwell, was very enamoured with them when he visited them after being wounded in battle fighting for the Republicans (not U.S. Republicans, the coalition of coommunists, socialists, anarchist and others fighting the fascists of Franco who wanted a republic, or democracy, as opposed to the fascist dictatorship they were fighting against). He had become disillusioned with the Soviet Stalinists and became a more libertarian socialist after witnessing the Spanish syndicallist community.

Eventually, that community was brutally eradicated not by the fascists but by the Stalinists, their ostensible allies in their fight against the fascists. Orwell returned to England and became what he called a "pragmatic patriot" supporting England's fight against the Nazis but he remained a Libertarian Socialist and very critical of capitalism untilil the end of his life.

No Fraud's picture
No Fraud 9 years 50 weeks ago
#11

I wouldn't say "pop definitions" are dismissive...They are certainly worth the conversation we just had; which I do agree with what you are saying in regards to "pure communism" and "liberatarian socialist" and the responsiblity of "genuine Anarcist".
Maybe I should further educate myself, and I always am, but I don't agree that my perspective is dismissive.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#12

I apologize for my boorish, piggish behaviour toward Global. I take back what I said to him and about him. He's an alright dude, not a shill at all, in my opinion. We only disagree.

Global's picture
Global 9 years 50 weeks ago
#13

Okay, okay Mark, apology accepted. Carry on..

Global's picture
Global 9 years 50 weeks ago
#14

And as far as these shills I have heard Hartmann mention before I think it is probably another strawman he creates so you can hate them. If there is such a thing, sign me up I could use some easy money.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#15

I don't think your perspective is dismissive but that that of popular culture - hence, their "pop definitions" - is. You do seem to be interested in getting the whole story. i didn't mean "you" personally, I meant the generic "you".

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#16

Global the fact that Americans would rather get that 900 million barrels from Hugo in Venezuela, that is shipped by tanker through the Gulf to Texas than Canada's ethical oil moved safetly by pipeline like we have done for fifty years is insulting.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#17

There actually was a case where one individual told TH all about it and thanked Thom for putting him through school as he got paid for every post he put on the forum and every call he made to the show. But there have been, also, many other more or less documented cases where that was discovered to have been taking place.

I don't know if or how much the same thing happens from the left. I am pretty active on the left and I've never seen or heard of it , although, I'm more with the grass roots, community organizing part of the left than the bureaucratic unionist left. If it does happen on the left it doesn't nearly as much, if for no other reason, because there's just not nearly as much money on the left and right wing talk radio has always been censorious to the point of strict control. The screeners of right wing talk radio have always ensured that no effective callers from the left could ever get on their programs. So I doubt it happens much if at all.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#18

Hugo's oil is ethical, why isn't Hugo's oil ethical? Pipelines are environmentally unsound.

Karla in Gresham's picture
Karla in Gresham 9 years 50 weeks ago
#19

Almost -- since 82% of the wealth is in the hands of 2% of the people -- there abouts anyway.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#20

No Fraud:
The (reply to #xx) is not reliable (editing and re-submissions only causes confusion to this Blog site).

Perhaps you should not click on the "Reply" button on the bottom of a post and just enter the person's name or handle at the top of your reply along with the hint of what you are replying to in quotes. Or, with a little more effort use the built in formatting options:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/filter/tips

This also eliminates readers from having to roll back to the post you are trying to reference or trying to guess just what, or who you are referring to. You don't have to quote the entire post...just what is important to get the idea across.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 9 years 50 weeks ago
#21

Kend - I know you are intelligent. But to actually state that the people who are sending shale crude oil are doing so to make sure other countries will have sufficient fuel to benefit their citizens? They could care less about the people their goal is to amass even more wealth for themselves. We were told that shipping crude oil in super tankers was very safe. As long as a human is in charge things can go wrong. The Valdez oil spill destroyed the habitat in Alaska for decades. B.P. sworn drilling in the gulf was completely ego friendly with all the technology involved nothing could go wrong. They lied and were responsible for another disaster for the ego system and the people who relied on the ego system to supply a means for their financial survival were devastated by a blowout that could have been prevented if they (B.P.) invested money into assuring this accident would not happen or could be contained easily. Now you think and believe this pipeline exporting the dirtiest type of oil from Canadian shale crude oil and if spilled into the environment it will cause a major disaster for the environment, people, farms and the aqua that it passes over. Yes, I have heard someone comment that it will not cross over any areas that have water stored underground that people need for survival. That has been disputed and proven to be wrong. It does cross over precious water reserves.

As far as producing high paying jobs, that is not correct. This crude oil will be stored on super tankers and shipped to other nations for refining. This pipeline will not produce jobs for Americans on any significant level. So basically the Canadian people will have jobs drilling the crude for transportation and the Americans will take the risk of a major disaster with very little compensation in the number of jobs created. The people who will make the money will be the wealthy corporations that will be in charge of drilling and transporting this oil. No thank you. I apologize if my comments seemed harsh when commenting about conservatives and Republicans. The stakes are high for poor and middleclass Americans and I see the opposition as a real enemy, not just some political party that would sink the economy before raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans. They will not flee this country because they would find the same type of tax structure in most countries in Europe and therefore it will be like spitting into the wind, the results would not be beneficial. Also, I firmly believe it is time Americans took to the streets in massive protests across our nation. Hopefully this would create a sense of reality in those who think they are untouchable by the citizens of this country. But that will not happen until the citizens see their taxes go up and programs slashed once we go over the fiscal cliff.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#22
Quote Global:"If there is such a thing, sign me up I could use some easy money."

Here is an interesting short story from exShill: "I was a paid internet shill."...of course, it may be fact or fiction...but from all the other things I've read on the subject...it sounds to me to be more fact than fiction.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread826545/pg1

And here:
"Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media
Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social...

This article mentions that it is supposed to be illegal for the Pentagon or other spy agencies to do this in the U.S.against U.S. citizens. And so they do it overseas against foreigners. But just like Echelon, that uses foreign partners to gather information on us in the U.S then trades that information with the partner countries....they can, and probably do, use paid sock puppets or shills from other countries...like Australia or Canada (for example) to skirt or circumvent U.S. law...not that that has much meaning anymore since 911. And, I highly suspect that Israel is well into practicing this in the U.S. as well. Say anything against Israel and they will gang up on you with their sock puppets.

If someone is supporting right wing ideas, they are very likely shills being paid to do it. But, you also have to watch out for some people who may sound like they are on your side but who will use their faux personae to gather information about you that they (or their covert organizations) may someday be able to use against you. And you may never even suspect who it was that got you to say things that would work against you.

We all probably say way too much about ourselves on the internet and that could come back to bite us. Using any little bit of information that you have given up in blog sites, it is possible (so I've read) for people to find out exactly where you live, who your family members are, where you work, your email and phone numbers, and with the help of Google Earth, zoom right down and "walk" through your neighborhood and view and identify your house or apartment building. And all of this done without using any hacker tools at all ..and you don't even need to pay the "people search" web sites..they give up tidbits in their teaser examples to be useful. But, beware, because those "people search" web sites are actually spying on you..tying you in with the people you are searching for..even if you don't pay for their services.

And if it is easy for anyone to do this...it is a great deal easier for anyone more sinister to do this..especially if they do use hacker tools..that are all freely available to any script kiddie who desires to download and use them.

And I'd say that quasi-government organizations, or the secretive spy agencies, are very sinister...they are not really out to protect us from "terrorists" but are in existence to keep the wealthiest individuals in control of all the rest of us while they continue to squeeze us into our coffins. This means they will use any means possible. Resorting, at first, to using psychological methods (like the use of shills or sock puppets); and eventually, to using force.

And, yes, I am quite aware that I have just given up way too much about me just writing this post. ;-{

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#23

ken ware: I believe we are way more alike than in our differences...that we disagree on a few issues is not a problem nor would it be if we disagreed on all issues. But, I usually always agree with most everything you have said. But you are way more fearless than I am for sure.

I just believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...ie: don't give some potential wacko information about who you are or where you live especially if you are going to express ideas that might set someone off. And it is also a good idea not to use the same name (even the same false ones) on other blogs because clues expressed in those blogs could be tied in with all the other blogs. Of course, if you use your real name and/or photo everywhere it would be so much easier for someone to locate you.

It's really fantastic that you have weapons yourself that you can use if you ever need to...but it is better to never put yourself in a situation where that might be possible.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#24

I remember Max Headroom...watched a few episodes..and I am often reminded of Max Headroom when I watch Thom Hartmann's shows. Remember the image of Max Headroom breaking up momentarily at times (which is an attempt to remind the viewer that Max Headroom is an artificial intelligence)....that's what seems to happen occasionally during Thom's shows. Although, no, I don't think Thom's intelligence is artificial...very real and very intelligent for sure...but maybe it is just the result of low budget snafus...like there is never any captioning...which I would greatly desire. Oops! there I go giving away more information about me...but I think I let that one go some time ago.

Global's picture
Global 9 years 50 weeks ago
#25

Mark, I take back what I said about you as well, you do have some good intelect and ability to think outside the box. I will look into the philosophy of Noam Chomsky. It may sound good on the surface but the ability to put into practice with the society we have established is an overwhelming task. As you know and we all have become painfully aware is that we live in a world where most people do not care about government or philosophy and have been dumbed down by pop culture media and distracted by the flavor of the day. And I like Palidometry do not trust government and the tools and power they have to manipulate the sheep in what ever direction they want. I think we as a people have allowed the big government to have way too much authority and that will be our demise. We must not be lazy and allow mob rule to dictate our futures.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#26

Whoah! Be afrai! Be very, VERY afraid!

This all may be true but we have to be open and honest, We can't be cowards or WE are sock puppets. There is no resistance or defiance itf we run and hide. It's at a point early in its progression where that maybe all we have to do, boldly andloudly enough, to succeed in stopping it.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#27
Quote Mark Saulys:"...we have to be open and honest, We can't be cowards or WE are sock puppets. There is no resistance or defiance it we run and hide."

I guess you must be referring to my post, currently at #78, I don't know...it doesn't seem to fit what I said in that post about Max Headroom. Anyway, I'll respond: Could we have even won WW2 without a certain amount of covert and deceptive actions...secrecy? How well would we have done had we told our enemy where all of our strategic points were, what our armaments were, etc? When you are fighting a war (especially one WE didn't start in the first place...ie: we are on the defensive) the least amount of strategic data you give the enemy is best. And the war is not being waged just from the economic hegemonic front but from a whole lot of wackos and weirdos that could do us great damage personally. It's one thing to express your ideas and beliefs but another thing to reveal personal data about yourself that could be used against you. It's tough enough trying to maintain a certain amount of anonymity on the internet when there are so many tools and hackers that can find out...even one's bank account numbers and balances...not to mention where you live and everything else about you. But if you help them out by providing details about yourself then you are greatly aiding the enemy (whoever they may be). Those who would benefit from a laxity in others security don't like it that their potential victims might become cautious and put up barriers to their potential exploits. Criminals love an easy prey. All I am saying is by all means express your ideas, resist, but try to keep anything that would make it easy for someone else to take advantage of you secret.

Our prying government, spy agencies, and the real sock puppets or shills, paid by them, wouldn't take this stance...they want you to be open and an easy mark for them...they want you to be totally open and revealing of your identities and your ideas and beliefs. But, obviously, the government, at least, can force Blog sites to reveal the email addresses and real names of the participants. But hackers can also, illegally, hack into the data bases and get the same information.

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#28

Ken W I would lIke to correct you on a few things. The oil that would be sent in the Keystone pipeline is from the Oil Sands in Fort McMurray, Alberta. It is not oil "shale oil" it is mostly mined google it. It is very interesting and is the largest engineering project in the world. it takes four years to get a permit up there and the land returned to its natural state. It is the second largest oil reserve in the world. Canada moves over a billion barrels of energy a year through Our pipelines very safely. Please don't get us confused with what is done down there they have different safety standards.

You also give me a hard time about getting in your business down there our Federal government just passed a law to stop all the US lobby groups from interfering with our business here. The Rockerfeller Foundation spent 7 million dollars on lobbyist in Canada against our pipelines in Canada. Rockerfellers the ones who made there money in oil go figure

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#29

Mark you are kidding right

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#30
Quote Global: "We must not be lazy and allow mob rule to dictate our futures."

But "we" are the "mob" and we SHOULD rule....not the "mobsters"...the few elite criminals who have stolen democracy in America. It may not seem like a big deal for someone who has a lot of money...but the mobs, the masses, the people are being threatened with their very lives. Life and death are at stake here! Just as in any war! But one exception to that model is that the only people that will be losing their lives will be the masses without jobs and without food and without access to medical attention and not the few at the top hoarding all the money. This war against the masses has sought, for over 30 years, to reduce wages, remove health benefits, and destroy Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. They have purposely run up the budget of wasteful Pentagon spending and even outright thievery ($2.3b missing from Pentagon Budget, Billions more missing in Iraq, Bankster bailouts, etc) just so they could destroy the social programs. And now they are about to do just that....and not a peep about touching Pentagon spending.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#31

Kend: #70 is not Mark...it is, this very instance.. until it changes again, Karla in Gresham.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#32
Quote Mark Saulys:"... consumerism is also employed by the elites to control the masses and make them incapable of even wanting to rise up. Thus the people abdicate their responsibility to society and leave everything up to government, business or whatever authority or power that be."

I agree...but a lot of consumers are also brainwashed to think that they, themselves, are on the way up...but most don't make it. They die poor and in debt like the rest of them believing in the great lie of capitalism. And the few that do make it are held up on a podium...as saints, perhaps...to further the religion of Mammonism, now called Capitalism, where many of the true believers end up in Mammon's pit of despair..debtor's hell perhaps. Nice try...but you lost...sorry sucker!

Remember Gordon Gecko said "Greed is good!" What a guy, eh?

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#33

You are arguing for being afraid and we must not. Our society is not yet at the stage where we must rettreat to the hills to organize armed resistance. The resistance necessarry is calling them out and calling their bluff, open defiance. They are not yet in a position where they can begin arresting and jailing dissidents openly.

We had the same discussion at Occupy. Our resistance is non violent which is actually more courageous in many ways than armed or violent resistance. It means you sit down right in front of the tanks and refuse to move. When the violence comes all the casualties will be on your side, you will just sit there and take it. But that's how you can win because they have a monopoly on violence so they want you to try to fight them violently.

At Occupy we had a total transparency, no need for "security culture". It was our strength because we were open to everybody, we could build a movement. There was no need for security culture because we did nothing wrong. We were only trying to defend basic human rights. If we were arrested for doing nothing wrong that was part of the resistance, part of the theater. If we engaged in civil disobedience we accepted the consequences.

It requires courage. You can't do anything without it.

Anyway, if Thom's not afraid why are you?

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#34

I am certainly NOT kidding about pipelines being environmentally unsound, in the very least, in the way that they vandalize natural, unspoiled wilderness and although I don't remember ANY details I remember there was lotta bad stuff in that way with that pipeline.

I honestly don't know what's unethical about Hugo's oil. Is it because he made the profits from it benefit all the people of Venezuela instead of only the elites?

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#35

That's what I mean. They can't even want to rise up. They have no concentration span from watching commercial TV. They can't even comprehend what's happening.

I lived in West Germany in the '70s and all TV and radio there was state/public owned, it was all like PBS or NPR in the U.S.. There were two hours a day set aside for commercial advertisement so there were no commercials at any other time, interrupting programming or what. That was true about all European countries. Consequently, the consumerism was miniscule by comparison to that of the U.S..

ken ware's picture
ken ware 9 years 50 weeks ago
#36

I think it is Great that there is this much communication on these subjects and ideas! Regardless of what political philosophy you adhere to, these comments and responses are invigorating to the mind. I really hope everyone has a safe and happy Christmas or Holiday this season! Even if you’re a Canadian! HA! Just a little holiday humor!

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#37

Mark you are kidding right

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#38

Thanks Ken and same to you buddy

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#39
Quote Mark Saulys:
"You are arguing for being afraid and we must not."

Actually, Mark, I thought I was arguing to be cautious and pragmatic recommending that people not foolishly display their identity on the internet to any and all wackos and nut jobs, including those currently running this country. Would you post your bank account numbers and passwords on the internet? I sure wouldn't.

Quote Mark Saulys:
"Our resistance is non violent which is actually more courageous in many ways than armed or violent resistance. It means you sit down right in front of the tanks and refuse to move. When the violence comes all the casualties will be on your side, you will just sit there and take it. But that's how you can win because they have a monopoly on violence so they want you to try to fight them violently."

That didn't seem to work for Rachel Corey...that bulldozer just ran right over her...and Israel is still stealing Palestinian land and building Israeli settlements on it.

I do, however, think what the Occupy movement is doing is very brave and a very American thing to do ... .but so is armed rebellion against tyranny. Our forefathers didn't sit around singing cumbayah letting the British bash us over the heads or spray us with tear gas. In fact, if they all had acted like Gandhi this wouldn't have become a great nation independent of the British. The only reason why it may have worked in India was because of a unified massive Satyagraha (strikes, boycotts, and obstructionism is what it amounted to if you remove all of the obfuscations of peace, love, and brotherhood window dressing). It was massive obstructionism by the masses of Indian people and not by just small groups camped out on the streets or parks. They wore the British out but not without massacres by the British first. The massacres also tended to detract from the grandiose propaganda the British used to hide the fact that they were there to exploit rather than save the Indians from themselves (ie: acting as a police force..the same kind of propaganda the U.S. might use, as well, today). Gandhi's dandy but what voters are you going to influence that will vote outside of the corrupt two-party system? They'll still vote Republican or Democrat no matter how many of you Occupy people get abused. We don't want any Rachel Corey repeats here in the US..nor Kent States (Vietnam war went on another 5 years after... only coming to an end because the Vietnamese kicked our butts out)...it didn't help the Palestinians much and it most likely won't help us here in the US either.

nora's picture
nora 9 years 50 weeks ago
#40

JOBS. Infrastructure jobs.

The Government has always participated in this type of job-making! Every town is made this way. Every urban area grows this way. Ports are constructed/maintained this way. The canal system in early New York state got finished this way. Roads are extended this way. The railways were built this way. Airports are made and operated this way.

What is PARTICULARLY bizarre about this moment is how our Government legislators in Washington are funding EVERYTHING BUT the programs that would create the most necessary and greatest number of jobs. Something fishy about this. I suspect it is part of a conspiracy to smother the USA in PRIVATIZATION scams.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#41

Rachel Corrie is a casualty and the fight is not over. If Rachel Corrie had tried to bomb the Israeli Consulate in Seattle she would've set her cause back because she would've turned more of the public against it. Doing what she did would turned more of the public in the U.S. and internationally, to sympathy with her cause. It didn't as much as it should've because the International Solidarity Movement, that she was wiith, didn't do its media work and/or the media blackout of the Palestinan voice of the conflict in U.S. media didn't get the word out about it and, when it did, not in an fair, honest, balanced way.

Armed struggle against tyrranny can only be taken up when most of the public is with you supporting you. If it's not you are marginalized to the fringes if you take it up and are irrelevant which is why they WANT you to try it.

I onced asked an old radical, "How can you tell a police spy in your group?" and he answered, "He'll be the one wearing the most buttons and the one advocating violent action."

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#42

I am certainly NOT kidding about pipelines being environmentally unsound, in the very least, in the way that they vandalize natural, unspoiled wilderness and although I don't remember ANY details I remember there was lotta bad stuff in that way with that pipeline.

I honestly don't know what's unethical about Hugo's oil. Is it because he made the profits from it benefit all the people of Venezuela instead of only the elites?

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#43

The Rockafeller Foundation, as I understand it, is not an oil concern but a philanthropical entity. It funds many justice projects and such. It came about because the Rockafeller Oil trust was too high and mighty so the government came after them to take some of their money away, telling them that they could either have it taken away from them or they could give it away to a good cause. They then gave it to a foundation on condition that the Rockafeller name by attached to it but the oil concern has no say how the money is spent and used or what causes the foundation supports.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#44

You are right, What you refer to as the pop culture, the dumb down, the flavor of the day is what is commonly called "consumerism" and it is, in fact, an essential component of modern capitalism. Our job, role and function is to consume as much as possible and our values become superficial, nihilistic and gluttonous. In order to keep the vast machine running it is necessary not only to produce but also to consume and a person is judged not only by how much they pfoduce but by how much they consume as well.

It creates some of the greatest social, personal, moral and spiritual costs of capitalism. For this reason spiritual leaders are highly critical of capitalism, e.g., Pope John Paul II , who, although he came from Poland and was strongly opposed to Soviet Communism, was very dubious about capitalism as well. Simiilarly, Soviet dissidents, often after being freed or having defected and coming to the United States, often adopted positions that flat out rejected capitalism as did Alexander Solzhinytsin.

And, you are dead right, consumerism is also employed by the elites to control the masses and make them incapable of even wanting to rise up. Thus the people abdicate their responsibility to society and leave everything up to government, business or whatever authority or power that be.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#45

The Stimulus Package contained money for infrastructure projects that Republican governors refused and the president's Jobs Bill was an infrastructure bill that the House wouldn't even consider, even when he broke it up into parts and tried to pass each individually.

REPUBLICANS ARE THE PARTY THAT SPENDS trying to bankrupt government and run up deficits. Our current deficit is left to us by them, willfully created by them and, you are right, they run up a deficit of monstrous proportions because that forces government to privatize.

Anybody who is against big government should be even more against privatization as it takes government or departments of it OUT OF THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE and into the hands of one rich asshole or a small group of them making it, then, MUCH LESS ACOUNTABLE to the people and serving the people less and the small handful of profiteers more. Government and the country's esources should belong to the people, not be, effectively, the personal property of one or a small group of profiteering individuals. PRIVATIZATION IS THEFT!

Kend's picture
Kend 9 years 50 weeks ago
#46

A lot of the stimulus money went to green projects that Unfortunately failed. Here in Canada we made great improvements to all of the above. hopefully it will be apart of the next 6 trillion you spend.

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 9 years 50 weeks ago
#47

Try and fail, try again. I'm not real familiar with the green projects or why they went wrong. I suspect there was a fair amount of sabotage from the not so green industries threatened by them. Anyway, they are the way of the future - the Union of Concerned Scientists says the planet is warming 80% faster than previously expected - and if they provided some jobs for a while that's better than nothing.

We might not need 6 trillion if we're not funding two previously unfunded wars and a military budget blown up by expenses for projects and materials that exist for no other reason than to enrich the defense contractors. The military budget is the favorite way for the REPUBLICAN GANGS to run up the deficits beyond any measure so they could force government to privatize.

Because, you know, REPUBLICANS ARE THE PARTY OF BIG SPENDING!

Mauiman2's picture
Mauiman2 9 years 50 weeks ago
#48

Because, you know, REPUBLICANS ARE THE PARTY OF BIG SPENDING!

Wow, what planet do you live on? Certainly not the same one that I am on!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#49
Quote Mark Saulys: " Armed struggle against tyrranny can only be taken up when most of the public is with you supporting you. If it's not you are marginalized to the fringes if you take it up and are irrelevant which is why they WANT you to try it."

Exactly right and I've said pretty much the same thing before. It would be pretty foolish of anyone to try to do something on their own or in a small group. The majority will just call them names....just like the majority population in Germany called those few in Nazi Germany names who worked to undermine Hitler. That bomb sure didn't work out and the few that tried to assassinate Hitler didn't live long enough to read about how everyone else in the world praised them for trying. But think of how things would have been different had Hitler been assassinated. And think how different things would be if Hitler won the war and imposed Nazism on the whole world (sometimes I wonder if that didn't really happen). There would be no more "superior power" full of hypocrisy and righteousness to keep "evil empires" from sending masses of people (especially people who spoke out or demonstrated in streets and parks) to the gas chambers. So what righteous superpower is there today that the ruling elite in the US, and their evil twins and cohorts in other countries, have to fear to keep them in line? The British, after the Amritsar massacre, looked pretty bad in the eyes of other superpowers and got out of India. If there had been no other nation sitting in judgement would the British have felt so compelled to leave?

If you are participating in the Occupy movement, you are doing a whole lot more than I and risking a whole lot more as well. Except, I suspect, it won't be long before none of us will even be able to express our views on the internet...or until we are targeted in our very homes for speaking out against a tyrannous and corrupt political system. There are those in our government that are envious of China, Iran, and other such countries that censor the freedom of speech and ideas over the internet.

I see you've decided to put your photo up (if that really is your photo...one never really knows) in some show of defiance, perhaps, a future Rachel Corrie..maybe? Anyway, Just as you have said "it takes a majority" (even as a peaceful demonstrator) otherwise you will just be marginalized by the masses (and state controlled news media) and called names by the masses too scared or lazy or, perhaps, less idealistic than those of more defiant resolve. They have names for anyone else who actually tries to make a difference...what did they (at least the News Media) call Occupiers? hippies...homeless....people that had nothing better to do...people who smelled like they never took a shower in months? These same name-callers would also be joined by those in the peaceful demonstrators in the Occupy movement against anyone with their own ideas about how to inflict change...if it entailed violence. Wackos ...Cowards ...Commies.. Marxists..people who smelled like they never took a shower in months?

So, who do you really think you are going to influence to your way of thinking enough that it will matter? And even if you did influence the great majority of people what will that do?...get them all to vote for Democrats? That would be a predicament for the ruling elite wouldn't it? If there were a massive majority of Democrats in both the House and the Senate.. along with a Democrat President then what would they do? What would the Democrats do? The Democrats wouldn't have a way to "pretend' to be for the people..and then blame the Republicans for squeaking through some bill because of Republican dirty tricks and money influence... or an insufficient majority. None of them would actually like having no way out but to vote for laws that would actually help the people..they would no longer have the smoke and mirrors shell and blame games that they play.

Do you really think that by risking yourselves to great harm it will actually sway some right wing idiot that thinks the Occupy movement was just asking for it? Some people require something way more than empathy in order to move them to do what is right. Some people have to be scared sh1tless that they will lose not only all of their accumulated wealth (if they have any to begin with) but also something more dear to them.

Those who engineered 9/11 knew how to play the people...they used violence to scare them out of their freedoms and liberties. They used that violence to channel $trillions to the Military Industrial Complex so that they could invade and occupy and control the oil in the Middle East. They used that violence to make impotent any investigations and lawful actions into the massive criminal activities of most of the major corporations...like Enron that had been going on at that time. They used that violence to intimidate those others in positions who may have wanted to do what was right.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 9 years 50 weeks ago
#50
Quote ken ware:"The Dept. of Home Land Security ordered 350,000,000 rounds of anti-personal ammunition. There are over 300,000,000 weapons in the hands of the civilian population. Perhaps the government fears us more than anyone really knows!"

It certainly seems to have worked for the Tea Baggers..who have influenced the Republican Party. Some Republicans say that they don't even recognize their Republican Party anymore because of the Tea Baggers influence. And they haven't yet had an armed rebellion...just a lot of noise. But, I agree with you...an armed rebellion by anyone is the last thing any of us want to see. That would be insane. But, unfortunately, history has had it's insane moments.

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