A rare word is coming out of the Senate today: “compromise.”

With President Obama set to tackle immigration reform on Tuesday, a group of bipartisan Senators came out today with their own compromised deal. The team of four Democrats and four Republicans introduced a plan that will put the more than 11 million undocumented immigrants, currently in the United States, on a path to citizenship. But first, they will have to register with the government, pass background checks, pay back taxes and penalties, and then move to the back of the line for full citizenship status.

The proposal also puts in place new border security measures – and young people – or “DREAMers” who were brought to the country illegally when they were a child, but have gone to school here and kept their nose clean, will be put on a faster track toward citizenship.

This is a good sign that a deal on comprehensive immigration reform can be struck this year. Stay tuned.


Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 18 weeks ago

Interesting you call them "undocumented immigrants" I thought when you break the law you where a "criminal".

It is amazing that when the mad cow epidemic broke out they tracked back the cow to find out it was born in Canada, knew what stall it slept in the state of Washington, tracked its calves to their stalls but they can't find 11 million illegal aliens wandering around your country and throw them out. Every other country in the world deports them. Maybe you should give every "undocumented immigrant" a Canadian cow then you would know where they all are.

The children of them is a tuff one though. But if someone gets rich on selling drugs and then gets caught would you let their kids keep the money because they are used to that life style. No of course not so is there a difference?

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 18 weeks ago

I agree with Kend. The children of illegal aliens, that are doing well in school and have a potential to succeed in college maybe should be given an exception, that is legalized status. But not if one American kid has to lose his chance at a scholarship or place in a limited class. At lot of your specialized degrees have limited spaces. That is just plain wrong. Also, we as a country have to be willing to accept the "blow back" of the exceptional scholar amnesty. That is, every individual that would like to move to America, legally or illegally because they see their children will be given a possible legal status, and the parents too for that matter, then they now have a huge carrot waving in front of them. So we are just opening up for another wave of illegal immigration. How many, who knows?

Johnnie Dorman's picture
Johnnie Dorman 10 years 18 weeks ago

"Pay back taxes and penalties"???

I don't think so....

dowdotica's picture
dowdotica 10 years 18 weeks ago

It's all good, fine and dandy randy! you know i know this one kid that was national honors student finished like top 10 in her class, now attending the #1 public U in the country, paid for her lunch every day with $ from mom and pops. even managed to save half of her lunch money to put in the bank, alredy started her "retirement" account. been saving lunch duckets since she was 10. she absolutely went through the roof when she found out she could not get any "free " $$$, which by the way is my $$$ in way of taxes, all because her mom and pop make a bit more over the threshold. she did get "some' scholarship money but her mom and pop still have to dole out the difference meanwhile some kid she knows at the same U got a free ride and had a lesser GPA? you can siffce to say she was not at all pleased. She got even angrier when she learned about the number of kids who use to get free lunch program yet see them drive up to school in thier own cars? or mom and pop sporting Cad escalades or huge gas guzzling trucks? this is a young scholar who sees quite clearly. personally i think it sucks that we would more quickly invest in under scoring under privledged then investing "equally" in the kids who work thier butts off. this kids mom and pop are just working stiffs and just as PO'd, you know that kind of ilk i rant about all the time. The ones who make say 84k taxable income and pay 13k income tax while some other 100k taxable income only pays 2.8k. the system is just wrong!!! from immigration all the way through the tax code and it's this kids paretns and others like them who have to pick up the tab. JUST WHEN ARE THOSE CLODS IN WASHINGTON REALLY GOING TO DO SOMETHING FOR JOE THE TRUCKER AND HIS CUTE WIFE THE WAITRESS and the 3 kids he's putting through scholl who by the way are 100% legal?!!!! Yup, i'm jut a bit miffed...lol

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 10 years 18 weeks ago

How about we place the undocumented criminals whom these desperate immigrants had to work for on their own special govt. register! If the immigrants have to pay back taxes and penalties then it's only fair for their employers to pay too.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

I think it's a splendid idea and a long time coming. Finally we can get illegals Driver Licenses and Auto Insurance. We would then be able to compel all immigrants to pass a drivers exam so we don't have to deal with cars on the freeway with "La Raza" and "El Sol" bumper stickers moving at a maximum velocity of 45 mph.

Also we can get them Social Security numbers so that employers will have to report their earnings, provide them with benefits, social security, health and unemployment insurance. This would drastically help finance the "struggling" current system. The over all sweeping reform possibilities are off the chart and the bottom line is that with such reform now the cost of immigrant labor will match that of laborers with full citizenship. American labor discrimination will end and job competition will be fairer. Americans will have a fighting chance to go back to work. I love it. Finally something I can get behind. I hope Reid and the Dems don't drop the ball again! I hope the plan passes!

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

Kend, with all due respect do you ever proof read what you write? If I understand you correctly, you just compared livestock infected with a deadly brain disease imported from Canada to desperate Mexican workers willing to risk life and limb, leave their family's, go off to do intensive labor illegally in a foreign land for peanuts so they can send back desperately needed finances to help their family members at home survive. You say they are criminals but your cows are victims?

Please forgive me but I must ask, have you eaten any of these infected cows?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 18 weeks ago

One could argue that this was their country before it was ours..before we stole it all...just like it was the Indian's country before we took it from them. It looks like at least the Mexicans are getting some of their land back...they now outnumber everyone else in California, anyway. And the Indians are getting something back, if you call Indian casinos and fishing rights in some areas something. I still think about the Trail of Tears and other atrocities white man selfishly committed against them. And, well, I just watched Django Unchained..and I couldn't help but think how many whites are now being treated just like a few treated the blacks in the deep south in those days. Well maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration...they don't tie us to trees and whip us mercilessly and hang us upside down and castrate us. Samuel L. Jackson's character was just brilliant and reminds me of a few people in out government whom I won't name. But maybe we can get S.L.J. to play President Obama one day. But, maybe he already has.

But, in many other ways we're all slaves now. To the few hoity-toity, pompous-a$$ed billionaires, we are all the "great unwashed". We are all struggling to survive and many of us aren't doing so well. I am doing just fine, myself. But that's right now...what about after gas goes up to $10.00/gal and groceries go up to several hundred dollars a bag. What if...what it...

So, having said all that what is my position on immigration? I think that the wealthy profits a great deal from the cheap labor they get from Mexican workers. I think that they have consistently skirted immigration law in order to get that cheap labor. Their public face scowls at the laborers who sneak across the border but they use the fact that these 'wetbacks' are here illegally so that they can keep their wages low and abuse them in other ways.

I think that if we are going to have immigration laws..they should be enforced. If they sneak across the border, then they are illegal. They have committed a crime. They should be deported. And I believe the wealthy employers should go to jail for hiring them. The problem is that these people take away job opportunities, even though they are not exactly top executive positions in corporations, from legal citizens and also puts a drain on benefits that legal citizens would have gotten. Some people argue that no American citizen would even want these jobs...working out in the fields...but if they were paid enough they would. It might increase the cost to us in the supermarkets..the wealthy certainly wouldn't miss an opportunity for an excuse to raise prices...they certainly are not going to take a hit or a reduction in their profits.
A few years ago an old wild, stray cat comes limping into my yard...very skittish...ran off every time I even looked at him. I had wondered if it had been mistreated. It's a beautiful fluffy orange colored cat. I started to leave food out for him and he ate it. I made a little shelter for him and even put a heating pad in the bottom to warm him (maybe it's a her, I don't know). That cat just finally started to not run off and even lets me pet him a little now(but he will still hiss at me if I make any sudden moves). And just recently,
another stray black cat, a much younger cat, shows up and tries to steal the orange cat's food. (he must be a capitalist) So I started feeding him/her too. That younger cat is very friendly but he/she is such a pig..he eats all I give him then goes over and finishes what the older orange cat didn't eat..and still wants more. The orange cat can't eat very much at any one time..I have to feed him more frequently..but smaller amounts. If I hadn't fed that old orange cat he would most likely be long dead and I have to protect him against the younger cat who would steal everything he/she could from the orange cat.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

GUN CONTROL! I appologize everone for repeating myselt; but, this rant deserves repeating:

Did anyone noticed that we just had a march on Washington Saturday in favor of gun control. That's right! Not to protect our civil rights, overturn "Citizens United", repeal the "Patriot Act", end any of our ridiculous foreign military conflicts, re institute publicly funded mental institutions, or preserve social programs; but rather, TO BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS.

I couldn't help but take a good long look at the crowd. Several seemed to be carrying high quality, professionally printed signs. Also, the news agency reports a turnout of "thousands" yet I saw no long range or aerial photographs to support that notion. In fact the "crowd" looked somewhat widely spaced, comprised of no more than a few hundred at most.


I don't know about you guys, but when I was a kid watching real protests on TV people used to have to make their own signs. When a multitude gathers in a small space they are also usually shoulder to shoulder.The tyrannical government met the demonstrators on the street with riot gear, billy clubs, and tear gas. Without any of that spectacle I can only conclude that this "tyrannical government" fully endorses what the protesters want. If anything, I submit that this "protest" is nothing more than a public commercial for government policy. If you ask me this whole story smells like Corporate sponsored propaganda. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, by and large I agree with these people's arguments. I don't really care for guns myself. I have always believed they cause more problems than they solve. But why do people insist that this course of action will resolve the problem? Only by reinstating publicly funded mental institution will the root cause of this problem be addressed. Also, why march for this issue? No, I don't think the recent shooting sprees constitutes a National Crisis as much as the other issues I've mentioned. Important, yes! Crisis, no!

If this issue can cause a demonstration in the Capital where were these people when our bill of rights went through the shredder, our Democracy was attacked by the Supreme Court, and our social services starved to death? It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Are we a Nation devoid of Critical Thinking altogether? Is the only way to stir up people to demonstrate in the Capital through Corporate sponsored puppetry? Is there no one amongst us who can suggest to the Government that we demand that they immediately reinstate publicly funded Mental Institutions? I guess I just don't get people sometimes! If an insane person whats to kill innocent people, and they're not locked up safe somewhere but are running around loose, there will always be someway for them to succeed.

Probably the best, fastest way they could succeed without assault weapons is with a car. Anywhere there is a crowd a car is a perfect weapon of mass destruction; and, doesn't even need to be reloaded. Are we going to ban cars next so crazy people can still be free to find other ways? What about knives, screw drivers, crow bars, hammers, and matches? A small group of crazy Arabs recently knocked-off 3,000 innocent people with box cutters. Come on people--use your heads for crying out loud! Are we going to pursue a path where we will eventually have to cripple our society so that Mentally Ill people can run free? Is that what you're suggesting? Don't forget they can kill you with rocks too. Are we going to ban rocks?

You might laugh! Rocks! Really? Ha! Ha! But if you were so insane to really want to kill a lot of people, and you couldn't get a gun or a car, you could just as easily fill a couple of sacks with rocks and go up to the roof of any very tall building in town and lob them off. When they reach the street they will be traveling at the velocity of a missile. They will go right through the roof of any car like an armor piecing bullet; as well as right through your skull and embed themselves in your stomach. If they missed you they would hit the street and explode like a hand grenade sending shrapnel everywhere. Even if you had a gun, you wouldn't be safe. They would be far out of the range of any gun. Your only hope would be to get out of the street. So as you can see, banning guns does little if anything to solve the real problem. Unless the government is behind these shootings and they won't stop staging them till we let them take our guns away. If you believe far out conspiracy theories. Like the NRA says, there's far too many illegal guns available anyway. The solution therefore is to ban the Lunatic.

That's what it sounds like to me. When is this insanity going to stop! This country does indeed suffer from a Mental Health Crisis. Clearly it affects us all. That is what we need to address as a Nation!

Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 18 weeks ago

I am sorry Marc I will write slower next time. I was just trying to point out your government cares more about what cows come into your country than what people do. You have completely lost control of your borders. Most countries would think that would be a threat to your national security. Don't you think you are sending the wrong signal to the world when you are giving in to people breaking the law entering the country.

I think the solution is simple. Here in we give people temporary work visas. they come here do the work pay Canada taxes then take the rest home. No different to thousands of Canada oil field workers going the Middle Reast, Soviet Union, Africa, and the South Pacific.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

I'm sorry Kend but temporary work visas is a terrible idea. It fosters indentured servitude and does nothing to improve job availability for real citizens. To offer the ability to work legally, pay taxes and then deny citizenship where the worker will have an opportunity to share the benefits they are working for is unfair. It also opens the door to exploit that position, pay unfairly low wages, edge out legal citizens from the work place and permanently prevents workers from ever having the ability to unionize. It's an idea that is unacceptable in a free society.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 18 weeks ago

DAnneMarc - You left wing liberal progressives make me puke, along with people like Hartmann and Palidromedary. With the exception of the Criminals we elected into Congress and the Whitehouse, where else do we as a nation, look the other way when a crime is committed? As a nation we are bleeding jobs to China and other Asian countries and you want the blue collar workers and their families to embrace these people who broke the Federal Laws to get here and continue to break the law by remaining. And before you get on your white horse and start yelling bigot or prejudice, my best friend throughout my service in the Air Force was a guy named Eddie Juarez. He called himself a,"Tex Mex", from Brownsville, Texas. We watched each other’s six and both came home alive and in one piece. So shove your comments about any prejudice you want to see here in my statements. My Great, Great, Great Grandparents on my mother’s side came here in 1792 from Ireland and my Great, Great Grandparents came here from Ireland in the mid 1800's. So yes we all come from an immigrant past. The difference is that they ALL came here legally! And I do not care if you’re Mexican, English, Japanese or Irish; if you came here illegally you should not be rewarded because enough illegal immigrants had enough children to mean something to the crooked politicians who afraid the children of illegals might vote against them in the next Federal Election! The politicians do not give a rat’s ass about these illegals, as I stated they are concerned with the children of the illegals that could swing an election. And, because our forefathers did not want King George declaring the children of Englishmen part of his kingdom, we included in the Constitution that anyone born on American soil is an American regardless of their parent’s status. That needs to be changed with an amendment ASAP!

Let's talk about who really benefits, besides the Illegal Aliens, with the Illegals working here. It is the employer who hires these people as independent contractors and therefore they, the employers of Illegals, do not have to pay their part of the Social Security Tax that they would have to pay if they hired an American and they get away with no Workers Comp. Insurance and no medical. The Illegals have flooded into every Blue Collar job there is to be had. I know, I live in Southern California, and have seen firsthand what the Illegals do to the American workers standard of living by depressing wages. Let’s not forget the fact that here they have flooded the public hospital system here in California to a point that is almost useless to the Americans that would normally be using it. I know personally from the experience my father had while being struck down with cancer and did not have medical coverage at that time in his life. The backlog of patients primarily came from Illegal Aliens that were having their illegal children who would become automatic citizens and illegal family members attended to, while Americans had to wait in overcrowded facilities. The Illegals have been successful of entering every Blue Collar job there is. Not because of their superior work or dedication, but rather because they represent and are forms of the cheapest labor available and that is all these unethical employers care about, devastating the American Workers who have been displaced. The Senate states there are 11,000,000 Illegals here. I have seen figures that state there are as many as 20,000,000 Illegals in the U.S. Lets take the middle ground and say there are 15,000,000 Illegals here. That represents tens of millions of jobs Legal Americans could be doing in this down sized economy! Not only do the American Blue Collar Workers have to suffer from their jobs going to China, they have to contend with the fact that there would be millions of jobs they could be working at, if not for the Illegals that are here taking the food out of their families mouths.

Let’s talk about how the Illegal Aliens have flooded our schools with non-English speaking students that require special interpreters just to get the children enrolled. My daughter is a teacher who teaches all her children as equals regardless of whether they are here illegally. But, she has trouble with the parents on a daily basis, and most of the illegal parents cannot communicate on a level that allows the teachers to express the needs and concerns the teachers have about their children’s education.

You want to talk about the cost in Welfare that goes to the illegal parents of children that are born here, and the scam that they do not have a husband to care for the kids, so even though the parents are illegal the needs of the children are met, as well as paying for the Illegal mothers of these children that are born to Illegal Aliens that snuck into our country.

Again let’s talk about all the tax money the Illegal Workers do not pay, because they are hired as independent contractors and it is up to them to pay their own taxes and Social Security Taxes, as well as their Medicare Taxes. The Senators know the Illegals and their employers have skirted the Tax System with their scams, which is why they have included paying back taxes!

As a Californian, I have seen what Illegal Aliens and Illegal Workers have done to my State and can only pray the Republicans in the House stop this stupidity and pandering to the Latino Vote with the Bill the Senate would have us all embrace. I never thought the Republicans in the House and I would have some ideology in common. Go ahead and lay your Left Wing nonsense on me, I am in the mood for rebutting your comments with facts, which I have to live with every day.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 18 weeks ago

DAnneMarc - Your response to Kend is nothing more theatrical Utopia thinking and nonsense. Do you really think if Americans flooded Mexico with Cheap Illegal Labor, they would stand for it? You sound like a friggin Marxist in the first half of the 20th. Century. Wake up and look at the real world around you. And if I upset you with my straight forwardness, grow some balls and deal with the truth the American Workers have to deal with each day with competing with the Cheap Illegal Labor you seem to embrace with the other Lefties here on this blog!

DrRichard 10 years 18 weeks ago

It's a Trojan Horse. Oh, the eight rich white Senators who came up with this will have a "final" plan, just like Reagan did in '86. But to make it work they'll put through a national ID card which, of course, Obama will encourage "in the name of settling this issue once and for all." And I give even money it will tie in with a national databank of all Americans, probably with biometric characteristics kept on file. Don't think so? This is exactly what India is doing--just to stop terrorists and illegals (from Bangladesh) of course. Personally, I think that's a trial run for the same system to be put in every developed country, and this bill will be the perfect entry way to bring it into the US. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this has happened here before. When Flight 800 blew up due to faulty fuel tanks the feds used it as an excuse to demand IDs before traveling on commercial airliners (and have now extended that to trains). They obviously were just waiting for an excuse to start this system. The real reason was to stop black marketing tickets, but the effect is to create an internal passport for Americans to travel within our own country. And people put up with it without a murmur. So if employers have to verify eligibility with a "secure" document there's no reason why exactly the same things won't happen again. In spades.

Johnny Plunkett's picture
Johnny Plunkett 10 years 18 weeks ago

The population of the United States has already doubled in a short amount of time and is set to double again in a short amount of time. NO environmentaly sensative person could possibly be for the amnesty!

Liberals who are pro-amnesty are traitors to the natural environment. Go to the numbersUSA website for the truth that Tom won't tell you.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 18 weeks ago

I really with you guys would just state your case and stop apologizing to each other. This is a blog and you’re supposed to state what you think without having to worry about hurting someone’s feelings. And no that is not being civil it is being ridiculous. You all need to grow some and stop saying you’re sorry in every other sentence!

Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 18 weeks ago

Marc, maybe Gun control, immigration, and voting reform are all just a deflection of the real problem. The economy. Obama must love the fact that no one is even talking about jobs or people losing their homes. If I was an American I would be furious that my government just spent 6 trillion dollars and your seniors are worried about their pensions and your grandchildren are broke before they start school.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

Ken again I respectfully disagree. I understand the semantic argument that your parents and my parents came to this country "legally". Very well! With that kind of logic it is we who are illegal immigrants in California, not Mexicans. if you wish to further this argument, with your logic; you, I and Mexicans are all illegal immigrants in the land of American Indians. "Where else do we appove of Criminals in this country?" Oh, I don't know, MAYBE THE WALL STREET BANKERS WHO JUST STOLE $7 TRILLION IN TAX PAYER MONEY FROM YOU AND I?

It is you and I who should relish the privilege of living here. You and I have no business railing accusations at the indigenous people who lived in this land before we stole it from them for attempting to return and profit from what was theirs to begin with. Also, you are way out of line calling them Criminals when it is the United States who stole this land twice.

Furthermore, you are irrationally analysing the situation when you say that offering a "Path to Citizenship" to "Undocumented Workers" is bad for this country. You fail to realize that it is the "Undocumented Status" of these people that give employers the ability to take advantage of them and the system. By exploiting the situation, employers are able to deny these workers just compensation for their work, their civil liberties, their workmen benefits, social security, and payroll tax deductions. They also have the ability to deny American Citizens of their jobs. It is not the workers who are criminals and robbing the American people of their jobs, but the employers. I fully endorse this plan because it eliminates the opportunity for taking advantage of the weak, levels the playing field, helps support our social safety net, and gives American Citizens a fair shot at getting their jobs back. It also allows the people with the truly rightful claim to this land to return with dignity. As far as I'm concerned, "That ROCKS!!"

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

PS Ken, I'm truly sorry if I made you PUKE! Sometimes, however, purging the system of poison is good for us. Sorry!

Also, I'm not a "left wing radical liberal Progressive" of any kind. I consider myself to be a staunch Conservative--by the Dictionary defenition of Conservation that is. Of course in the current world I have no label that fits--please don't try to assign one to me!

Thank you!

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

With all due respect to everyone, I did enjoy this "colorful" dialogue! But alas, I had a big day today and don't feel so hot right now. I'm going to turn in; but, will address any comments directed my way tomorrow night. May all have pleasant dreams and a wonderful day manana! Buenos Nochas!

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 18 weeks ago

One last thing! Ken said this, "This is a blog and you’re supposed to state what you think without having to worry about hurting someone’s feelings."

He's absolutely right about that. We need to stop worrying about hurting feelings and express our selves. Walking on egg shells is not going to help us share ideas people.

With that! GOOD NIGHT!!

Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 18 weeks ago

I agree KenW illegals are a huge drain on the US. I don't understand why the left down there stands up for them. When I said we offer Temporary work visas it is because we don't have Anyone to do the job. My son works on a paving crew. In 5 1/2 months he made $65,000. He makes good money because no one else wants to do it. What really blows my mind is how easy it would be to find the illegals and no one seems to care. here you are in handcuffs and on a plane in minutes.

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 18 weeks ago

Your comment "DAnneMarc - You left wing liberal progressives make me puke, along with people like Hartmann and Palidromedary."is really unnecessary. It diminishes the points you made afterwards. I am a progressive and liberal and am against amnesty and illegal immigration. I have also listen to Thom almost 10 years and have never heard anyone more honest and accurate in his research. As far as the points you made after, I have to agree with many. If your comments are civil we can avoid a shouting match and might come to agree in the process.

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 18 weeks ago

I have many questions about giving an amnesty to illegal aliens. Here are a few.

Are any of the 11 million now on ANY government assistance.
Why: If one immigrates to ANY country, poor. rich, you always have to prove you will not be a burden to that host country. You need to be self-supporting. You cannot have any lifelong diseases. You are vetted. Canada will not let a plumber come to their country if there are thousands of unemployed plumbers already looking for work.
Question 2: How can ICE process 11+ million people through the system? It cannot properly process the 1+ million a year that come to this country legally.
Question 3: How to stop fraud. When the 1986 amnesty program happen the estimates were very high that the as much as 60% of the applicants were not qualified to apply. Some had never been to the USA before. The original estimate in the 1980's was 500,000, and the end number was 2.7 million.
Question: 4 Are we going to end up having 11 million grow to 20 or 30 million to process for an amnesty?
Question 5 Why are we letting in over a million immigrants a year when the economy is doing so badly and there are 20 million unemployed and under employed?
Question 6 During the debate on the 1986 amnesty the main question all the experts had was: If we give an amnesty what is to say we won’t be dealing with another massive Illegal immigration problem 20 years down the road, only bigger numbers?
Instead of 500,000 it could be in the millions. So what is going to keep this from happening again in 20 years and we are talking about 40 to 60 million.
Question 7 With every immigrant that move to America they are given the opportunity to apply for permanent visas for immediate family which is around 20 people. So for every one million immigrants there is a possibility of 20 million following in the next 10 to 20 years.
Question 8 How can we support mass immigration at these levels?
Question 9 How many people can this countries water supplies sustain. We are already reaching our limits in South Florida. California and the Northeast?
Question 10 How big a population do we want, or can manage? 300 million, 500 million, 800 million, 1 BILLION, 2 BILLION? When most of our population growth is from immigration and births to immigrants, we need to look at immigration as a plus or minus to our countries future.
We need to have a sustainability discussion with the immigration issue.

This is just the beginning. More to come.

Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 18 weeks ago

Jlane well said. I never even thought about #9, water and food. Just you know Canada has 38% of the worlds fresh water we can help you out there. Oh sorry, apperantly, no more pipelines are welcome from here. You know that dirty oil thing it might have contaminated the water. Beef, rats forgot about mad cow can't help ya there. We are largest producer of wheat wait it might conflict with NAFTA or some other free trade agreement one of us has. . Sorry can't help you out I guess

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

Guess who most of those "criminal" undoumented immigrants work for, Kend? Republican business owners. You know, the "job creators."

Part of the reason that our government can track cows so effectively (when it chooses to do so), is that unlike undocumented workers, cows are bought and sold. Undocumented workers are often paid in cash, under the table, by republican business owners.

But I agree with you about criminals being put in jail, when the crimes are serious. For instance when Hitler's troops said, "Hey, we killed all those Jews because we were ordered to," the courts at the Hague said, "Orders or no, you murder people, it's on your tab, and you will either be hung or you will be sent to prison."

So, by your own logic Bush and Cheney, who started the Iraq war on the basis of a bald-faced lie, belong in prison. Or maybe hung, I don't know. And by your logic, I wonder how many members of our military belong in prison or hung for the crimes against humanity that they committed in Iraq.

Oh wait, it's only a crime when someone else does it to us. It's not a crime when we do it to someone else. I keep forgetting that. The next time I forget that, would you remind me, please?

megalomaniac's picture
megalomaniac 10 years 18 weeks ago

The calculus of new borders

The concept of the world as flat then told that the world is really round needs to be a thought process that had to be difficult to understand.

Or take the famous story in the bible about Noah’s ark, perhaps should be called Noah’s “arc”. Many remember the Ark of the Covenant being a thing like superpower that destroys all armies before it, though shrouded in secrecy, like the American pentagon. LOL. Or, what is real fun, an Indiana jones approach, a challis to drink from to perpetuate life forever?

Noah’s ark can be considered by anyone as the notion or ship called the earth on the rim of the milky-way. So we all are on this ship called earth whirling through something called space on the rim of the Milky Way traveling at more than half the speed of light without the slightest idea of feeling it with the exception of climate change, why and where are we going.

Or worse who we are and arguing about boundaries, birth rights, especially the right to life, profoundly through reasoning, intuition, and empathy, an individual decides randomly to better the world through an education or increase to chaos through murder, assassination, cheat, steal, swindle, while oppressing what the truth is. In plain sight anyone who watches television can see guns and wild ambitions for corruption from the Wild West through James Cagney movies, using machine guns in the 1930’s that glorify the real opportunity in America through corruption, Hollywood the false positive of reality, is the ninety nine percenters education vehicle.

The real kicker is those with huge amounts of money that with full intensions in an anti-life way game the justice system, industry, education, and government to perpetuate this anti-human way loaded with pepper spray, suppression of the first amendment of the constitution. Here it is today in America if the first amendment was really enforced where actions are taken to fulfill that commitment to the first amendment, America we would not need the second amendment!

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

jlane, I agree that we should send American children to school before we send foreign children to school. I mean, if I had a choice between sending my own children to school and sending other peoples' children to school, I would send my own children to school first. And as a country we should do that, too.

But I disagree with you about blaming the flood of illegal immigrants on the immigrants or on some unspecified cause. In fact, our government and American-owned corporations, have worked very hard over many decades, to de-stabilize and ruin the economies of Mexico, Central America, and South America, by offering foreign aid on the condition that those countries allow American agribusiness corporations to export food to them. And our government gave big-government handouts- huge tax breaks and subsidies, to those American agribusinesses, so they could sell food in Mexico and those other countries at prices below what it cost local farmers to even grow their crops. Thus putting millions of family farms out of business. So, what's a Mexican small farm owner going to do with his land if he can't afford to grow food? He has four choices: grow marijuana, grow coca leaves for cocaine, grow poppies for opium, or cross the border into Ameria and try to find work to support his family.

My point is that yes, American children should be given scholarships and class placement before foreign children, but America created the problem that caused so many latinos to flood into America. So, if America doesn't like the problem, America can very easily solve the problem, by not subsidizing the sale of cheap food in those countries.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

Now THAT is an idea whose time has come: republicans who have hired undocumented workers should have to pay back taxes and penalties.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

Kend, I agree with you about a workable solution: give foreign workers temporary work visas, and make them pay taxes on their earnings.

But I would also like our government to address the fact that IT CAUSED this problem, and in that sense it is very different from Canadian oil field workers going overseas to work. And it is also different in the sense that most undocumented workers are doing work that Americans can't or won't do. I spoke at length with a strawberry farmer, who told me, "I have tried hiring Americans to work in my fields, but it's hot when strawberries are being picked, and frankly Americans just aren't tough enough to do the job. They get exhausted very quickly and then if they keep working they get heat stroke. The Mexicans I hire are used to hot weather, they work all day long, no problem."

And it's true: when twenty generations of a family have worked all day long in the hot sun, the twentieth generation can do it easier than the first generation could. But if the republicans keep driving our economy into a ditch, why, in twenty generations Americans will be used to working in uncomfortable weather for almost no pay.

Oil field workers are paid very good wages. Strawberry pickers are paid very low wages.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

DAnneMarc, I actually (oddly?) agree with Kend on this one point: temporary work visas are a very good idea. It puts the entire process out here in the light of day, where it can be adjusted as need be, until it works well. Much better than all that sneaky stuff going on now.

You have a very good idea about foreign workers having a union. And if they were working legally, it would be fairly simple to set up union bargaining for them. A worker could only come to America if there was a job waiting for him, and he would know the location of the job, the living conditions, his wages, the type of job, the hours, etc, before he came here. This system has worked in other countries.

Indentured servitude is when someone has to keep working to pay a debt, such as when a republican sneaks Mexicans across the border and then makes them work until they have paid him for sneaking them across the border, which is what is happening to many illegals now. If they were allowed to walk across the border with legal documents, they would not incur the debt of being snuck across the border.

Case in point: a friend of mine in Los Angeles married a South American woman, so she was able to get citizenship. When she told her brother what it is like in America, he wanted to come here. There was nothing for him at home because the American agribusiness corporations had ruined his country's family farm economy. But he didn't know any American women he could marry, so he sold everything he owned and borrowed money from people you don't want to borrow money from, to pay a smuggler a lot of money to bring him to America. He was put into a wooden box in a truck, the lid was fastened on, and by the time they opened the box in and dumped him out onto the street in San Diego, he was nearly dead.

And to bolster the point I made in another post about these guys being tough, a few months later I was doing some carpentry with that guy, and we came across a huge black widow spider in some lumber. I didn't know whether he knew what a black widow was, so I pointed to it and said, "Malo!" (Bad, in Spanish.) He looked at me, then slowly put his thumb on the spider and squashed it. I would have preferred to carry the spider away from the work site and let it go, but I got the idea he was trying to convey.

I saw a Mexican worker on a roofing job. He spend hours pushing 4' x 8' sheets of 3/4" plywood up a two-story ladder. Now, I roofed for over thirty years in four different states, and I sure never saw any American who could do that. My point being, it's not necessarily a bad thing to allow extremely tough, incredibly hard-working people into America. As long as it's done fairly to everyone involved.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

Well, Ken, to paraphrase a scene in The Princess Bride, you better get used to puking, because I don't see Thom agreeing with you.

You ask why we look the other way when crimes are committed? But you have answered your own question, because you look the other way with regard to the fact that the Vietnam War was a criminal act by America. You simply say, "Hey, war. Sounds like a really great idea, let's do it," no matter what the circumstances are.

Yes, we're bleeding jobs to China, but it's kind of a stretch to blame that on Mexicans. And you don't quite get around to mentioning the republicans and tea partiers who own businesses that employ illegals.

You know, in all my decades in construction, I was only cheated out of money three times, and two of the people who cheated me, were "Christians" who were always beating people up with the Bible. (Which is not the use I thought it was intended for...)

You want Americans to go back to work? We need tariffs on all imported goods. But it is easier to just blame latinos for the problem that our republican-owned government and republican-owned corporations have created. Just look around for someone to call "the enemy," and blame them, rather than the people who actually did- and are doing- the crimes.

At the time when your Irish ancestors came to America, which is around the time my Irish ancestors came here, too, it was legal to horribly mistreat workers, to use them as slaves, to indenture them. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. And just because something is illegal, doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Some laws are wrong.

But I agree that employers who hire illegals should be liable, if the illegals are going to be liable.

As far as illegals flooding the hospitals goes, Walmart is more responsible for the flooding of hospitals, with their low wages and the fact that wherever Walmart puts stores they drive virtually all of the family-owned business, out of business.

I am sorry your father got cancer. If we had single-payer health care- socialism- your father would have gotten the treatment he needed. It is for the sake of people like your father, that I want single payer. It just doesn't pencil out, losing people just so hospital corporations can get rich enough to bribe congress.

You blame illegals for taking American jobs, but many of those jobs can't be done by Americans because Americans aren't tough enough to do them. And besides, it is our agribusiness corporations that created this situation in the first place. I mean, it's like if I took away your job and then blamed you for trying to find another job.

Your daughter is a teacher who has trouble with illegal's children. I know a teacher in Big Bear City in California and a principal there, too. They both say that the Mexican parents are incredibly grateful to be here in America, and that they cooperate in every possible way with their childrens' teachers, and that they make sure their kids do their homework. Interestingly, the parents that that teacher and principal have all the trouble with, are some of the white parents, the American parents who come to the school and scream at the principal for an hour without stopping except to draw breath. There white kids are the ones that my friends worry about.

Ken, have you ever actually looked at the laws your republicans vote for and against? Because it sounds to me like you're just repeating a bunch of sound bytes from that foreign guy Rupert Murdoch, who owns the tv and radio stations that you get all of your news from. But don't get me wrong, this is America, you are perfectly free to get all of your talking points from some foreign guy. And I have nothing against foreigners in general, but it just seems to me that the billionalre foreigners like that foreign guy Murdoch from whom you get all of your talking points, ruin everything they touch, while the illegal immigrants who come here and work hard for a better life, sort of represent the best of American values, such as hard work and trying to get ahead.

As a military guy or at least someone who claims to be a military guy, you know how to take orders. It just puzzles me a little that you would want to take orders from a foreign guy.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

I'm going to tell you up front: at first glance this post isn't going to sound like it's coming from a progressive, but I am a progressive and it is coming from me.

I live in the Seattle, Washington area, and it seems that every time I go to the post office, the passport office, the IRS, the social security office, or other federal offices, virtually all of the employees are non-American, speaking English with such heavy accents that it's obvious they were born and raised in other countries.

I am puzzled by this. Why would our government hire so many people from other countries to work in its offices, when so many multi-generational Americans are desperately looking for work.

Has anyone else has noticed this same thing in other parts of the country? And if you have, what do you think of it and why do you think our government seems to have this hiring policy?

My concern about this issue may sound inconsistent with my statements in defense of undocumented workers, but I think that multi-generational people in any country would wonder what was going on if unempoyment was very severe and yet for very good, stable jobs with great benefits their government was mostly hiring people who just got there from other countries. I am in favor of giving work visas to people who want to do jobs that Americans do not want to do, such as farm labor jobs.

So, what can you lefties and righties tell me about this issue?

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 10 years 18 weeks ago

DAVIDABBOTT...First thanks for raising your question, it is a good one.
Personally I don't think non-American government employee's are as "wide spread" as you make them out to be. I have lived all over the country and it isn't that way in Indiana, or North Dakota, etc. as say where you are, or in another major "multi-cultural" citie, i.e. New York, Chicago, and don't leave out Miami, San Diego, and Los Angles.
But more to your point regarding "whoes getting the government jobs?" Isn't it ironic that the very people the general public caste as outsiders, (Immigrants), are the very people working in government agencies?

Then again...What goes around comes around. Ain't karma a bitch!?!?

Sad...Our Countries culture was built on immigration (legal & illegal) now, either way. it's looked at as intrusive, threatening, and in someways even feared.

...Since we are no longer interested in the "tired and poor", or any "huddled masses yearning to be free"...Someone should take down the sign on Ellis Island...It's false advertising!

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 10 years 18 weeks ago

Thank you David Abbott...Well said. However something tells me that Ken Ware is not only just an old dog...you know what they say...but also he has toys in the attick, and I think some dangerous anger issues...Remember the Bell Tower shooter???

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 18 weeks ago

MMmmNACHOS, Cool name, and one of the two most important food groups, the other one being kale, of course.

I was asking if the situation with government employees around here being mostly foreign, is nationwide; I don't know.

I suspect it might have to do with some of those people having done some American diplomat or whoever a favor in their country of origin, and in return they got citizenship and a job. I know a Russian women who got over here that way.

If our country was properly run, it could handle a lot of immigration.

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 18 weeks ago

Who cares who caused the problem. You should add that Mexico has had an exploding population, so much so the a quarter of all Mexicans live in America. You could blame it on greedy capitalist who exploit labor whenever and where ever they can. You could blame it on Democrats who don't want to work for our vote by passing progressive legislation, but they try to be the great benefactor and give away the country in order to get loyalty and votes from the people that receive amnesty. You could blame Reagan for doing the first amnesty which has started this nightmare. Or Clinton for kicking off a new round of mass migration illegal immigration. It goes on and on.
But what are we going to do about it NOW?? Are we going to debate the issue, get to the bottom, FIND OUT WHAT THE TRUTH REALLY IS? Or are we going to try to feel guilty and ashamed. Through around these whimsical, almost comical sayings like "we are all immigrants". and "they do the work no one else will do".

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 18 weeks ago

Yoy also must know that the two biggest lobbiest for amnesty is the Nation Chamber of Commerace and the US Manufactors Association. The oligarchs are not liberals, they out to do what they always do make money at the at the expense of America's future. They have been using mass immigration to break unions and labor movements since the begining of the industrial revolution. A very non liberal thing to do.

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 17 weeks ago

My comments on this web site are my thoughts only. I do not speak for anyone else.

And because this is America, the place that I fought to grow up in, I will continue to speak my mind. I think this is something that Ken can respect, even though he and I disagree on some very important issues.

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 10 years 17 weeks ago

David Abbott"If our country was properly run..." Reminds me of Daniel Quinn's book Ishmael, where an 800lb Ape trys to explains Mother Culture and man's plight. There have always been two groups...Leavers; people who cultivate and live off the land, have an understanding and a respect for all mother nature offers.
Then there are the Takers; those who exploit resources for profit and have no regard for the adverse destruction they create, including poverty, war, and slavery.
Are you framilar with Quinn and his writings???

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 17 weeks ago

I hadn't heard of Quinn until you mentioned him, Nachos. But then, I don't get out much. I'll take a look at it.

Yes, "If our country was properly run..." I think the only way that will happen will be a result of a relative of Quinn's hero- a fellow called the hundredth monkey. And the cool thing is, no one seems to know who exactly that hundredth monkey is. Which should encourage me to treat people better than I sometimes do.

But just to make sure that Ken understands me, this is NOT an apology! Its a... it's a... It's a perfectly good excuse!

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 17 weeks ago

I care who caused the problem, because they're still causing it, and they will keep causing it until they are stopped.

I repeat: the Mexicans who have moved away from their homes, away from their families, generally do so for one reason only: we have wrecked their econcomy and/or made it so unsafe for them to live in their countries, that they almost have to come here. Have you ever talked with an illegal immigrant? I have talked with lots of them, and worked alongside about twenty of them.

I blame both Reagan and Clinton, and all of the other presidents who have signed off on our inhuman foreign policies and disastrous foreign aid programs. And I blame Bechtel, Halliburton, and all of the other corporations and banks that have bribed and coerced our presidents to commit those crimes.

And I was quite clear about what I think should be done: temporary work visas, only for workers who have been offered a job in America. And when their job is finished, they return to whatever country they came from, with a good amount of money that they earned by working for it. And they should have to belong to a union and pay union dues. And rather than the books for all this being declared top secret national security documents, they should be posted in libraries and online.

And yeah, for the most part they really are doing work that most Americans can't or won't do. Take me, for instance. I thought anything anyone else could do, I could do. So when I was offered a job doing hot tar roofing in 112˚ weather in Los Angeles, I said, "Well, with one helper I can do a 2,300 square foot composition roof every day that I work, so sure, I can do that."

After a few hours of carrying two 5-gallon buckets of 470˚ hot tar up a ladder, I found out that in point of fact, I was not as tough as the Mexican roofers. I collapsed under a tree and could not get up. I could barely breathe. But let's face it, I have always been a weakling. I'm sure that like most men, you are much tougher than I ever was, so why don't you go to LA- or even better, to Phoenix Arizona which is even hotter, and take a hot tar roofing job from a Mexican?

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 17 weeks ago

Ken Ware says: "You left wing liberal progressives make me puke, along with people like Hartmann and Palidromedary" and "I live in Southern California, and have seen firsthand what the Illegals do to the American workers standard of living by depressing wages...." and blah-blah-blah. (Who needs PMS, anyway?! tsk tsk)

Need I remind you sir, that nobody has held a gun to your head; or by any other means, forced you to participate on Thom's blog? I'm sure there are plenty of other blogs that would be much more to your liking... unless of course, you're simply using this as a dumping grounds for your aggressive urges, or just your day-to-day frustrations... Whatever.

I won't attempt to speak for anyone else on Thom's blog. But I am getting very tired of the negativity you bring to this discussion. You're obviously not happy participating, and you're not doing us any favors... so what's the point, then? You sound like just another dime-a-dozen variety, Angry White Man. It really is pathetic. You guys can't seem to get a grip on the idea of sharing this planet and its bounty with everyone else. You and your sense of entitlement make ME want to puke.

Mister Tough Guy, I'd like to see you try working in the fields with those Mexican immigrants you hate so much. Try picking strawberries and artichokes and so on... just for one twelve-hour day! Ask any farmer how Anglo Americans have fared in such jobs, and for how long. The fact is, Ken, most Anglos can't cut it more than fifteen minutes out there in those fields; they lack the skill as well as the stamina. What's more, you apparently are clueless as to the extent to which our economy is dependent on the slave labor of "illegals". Has it ever occured to you why these Mexicans can't find work in their own country? They'd have to be pretty desperate to tear up roots and and risk everything just to come here, subjecting themselves to a foreign language & culture where they are so despised by the likes of you. Your assumption that these workers don't pay taxes might be a convenient means to justify your xenophobic little grudge; but the fact is, they DO pay taxes. (Sorry to burst your bubble.) Whatever the reason they can't survive in the "mother country", I'd bet money it boils down to American corporate interests having had some sort of negative impact on Mexico's economy... not to mention the damage this country's "war on drugs" has imposed on our neighbors south of the border! Oh and by the way, here's a bit of history you immigrant-hating racist bullies conveniently overlook: California and Texas used to be part of Mexico, before it was stolen from them! So much for white folks "coming here legally". This whole friggin' country was built on stolen land!!

Again & again you've accused us of spouting off on things we know nothing about, but that is exactly what you are doing here. If you can't stand us bleeding-heart LIBERALS then go find another blog... or better yet, buy yourself a nice big-ass punching bag to unleash your aggressions on, or punch a few pillows! Or go jump off a cliff. - Aliceinwonderland

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 10 years 17 weeks ago

To your question #9...Human consumption; drinking, cooking, hygene, isn't the sole danger to the water supply...More so the waste, i.e. reverse osmosis (3 gallons to make one). Also irresponsable use...Supplemental watering for lawn and landscape. Trying to make grass and trees grow in the dessert, Farmers using millions of gallons of water during freezing weather to protect their crops, (We have seen the adverse effects of this in Fl.), Using nonreclaimed water to wash your car,(not to leave out the chemicals that leach into our waterways).
I could go on but I think you get the point...It's a combination of over population and abuse. But it isn't an over population of any one race, or culture. However that being said...The American culture has proven itsself with a looooooong history of being glutenous and wastefull consumers.

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 17 weeks ago

Why are we discussing amnesty when 15 to 20 million Americans have no jobs or unemployed? Why are we allowing mass immigration, somewhere around 60 to 70 million since 1990, when incomes, adjusted for inflation, during the same period have been stagnant? These are simple questions that need to be addressed.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 17 weeks ago

David Abbot- As usual, you are spot-on: "Our government and American-owned corporations, have worked very hard over many decades, to de-stabilize and ruin the economies of Mexico, Central America, and South America, by offering foreign aid on the condition that those countries allow American agribusiness corporations to export food to them." And: "...if America doesn't like the problem, America can very easily solve the problem, by not subsidizing the sale of cheap food in those countries." BINGO. - Alice I.W.

P.S. If I ever start a debating team, "tag you're it"!

David Abbot's picture
David Abbot 10 years 17 weeks ago

Well thanks, AliceInWonderland. I do enjoy a vigorous exchange of information. And I enjoy it even more as a result of something that happened in the mid-1970's: Suddenly I realized how very difficult it was for me to admit that I was wrong about anything, and I sawthe damage that my attitude was doing to me and to all of my personal and work relationships.

I really did want to be right, but I saw that in order to be right, sometimes I might have to stop being wrong, especially when someone very clearly showed me why I was wrong about something. Teaching myself to admit it when I was wrong was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. No joke, it was like going to war inside of myself, with a part of myself. The first time I decided to admit that I was wrong, it took me two weeks to get up the courage to admit it. And it was about some stupid little thing that didn't even matter to me or to the woman I was living with. I would start to admit it, but I could not get my mouth to form the words.

That was the most courageous thing I have done. For me, getting angry or lashing out at someone took no courage at all, because in fact I was addicted to getting angry and lashing out at people. Getting angry didn't show any character. Getting angry was the EASIEST thing I did at that point in my life. Forcing myself- against MY OWN resistance, to start learning to admit it when I was wrong, was one of the most rewarding things I have done, because now when I disagree with someone about something or when someone disagrees with me, I can relax a little, and not being quite perfect yet, I can listen to the other person and consider what they're saying, so that if I am wrong, hopefully I can quickly see it, admit it and then I will be right.

Sometimes I realize that I am wrong as soon as the other person states their case, and that makes it fast and easy. But other times it takes hours, days, months, or even years for me to realize that I am wrong about something.

When I dialog with people like Ken Ware, I see myself in the early 1970's. Ken proves that I was right to admit that I had an anger management problem and start dealing with it in a sane manner, and I was right to admit that I am not always right.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 17 weeks ago

Let me start by apologizing for not returning to the blog when I said I would. I've been flat on my back with a cold and fever. I will return to bed ASAP.

David Abbot, MmmmNachos, and Aliceinwonderland, thanks for fighting the good fight. It's quite overwhelming the hostility and paranoia that exists out there concerning "Illegals". Personally I'd prefer to call them "Unexpected Visitors." I'd just like to state my main concerns on this issue.

1. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL!! Not American citizens or legal immigrants; but ALL MEN. If we cannot as a people have the basic decency to treat others as we would have them treat us, we are hypocrites and deserve nothing better. Remember, whenever we diminish any group or anyone, we diminish everyone!

2. TEMPORARY WORK VISAS. With all do respect, NO! For two reasons:

*Anytime the ability to discriminate exists in the job market it will be taken advantage of by employers to exempt American Citizens from the labor force.

*If you intend to tax these workers for Workman's Comp, Social Security and any benefits while intending to deny them the ability to collect them this is unfair and unacceptable.

3. David accurately stated how hardy and strong the Mexican worker is. This is absolutely true. I've seen these gentle mannered people haul cement in wheel barrels all day without breaking a sweat or breathing hard. I've seen field workers tending weeds under the direct sunlight hunched over all day and then go dancing all night. As far as that Black Widow spider incident you've mentioned is concerned, I know an Agricultural Engineer in Mexico who works his own ranch. He told me that he is used to receiving stings from Scorpions on a daily basis because there are so many on his ranch. He say's there like Mosquito bites to him. Of course, this wasn't always the case. When he was a boy and received his first sting he went to the hospital and almost died. After that he would just get sick. After that he just felt a little woozy. When he got older, he didn't even bother going home. It had become a mild irritant at that point. You see David, there is no genetic factor prone to hardiness or strength. These characteristics are developed through your environment and lifestyle. I might argue that all of our ancestors were equally as "tough" at one time or another. I respectfully submit that it is our sedentary lifestyles and automated environment that makes us perceive the average Mexican Immigrant as Super People. We must be careful here. To carelessly bestow upon a group of people a physical characteristic as being genetic, when it is not, is discrimination.

4. Jlane said "Question 8 How can we support mass immigration at these levels?

Question 9 How many people can this countries water supplies sustain."

First of all Jlane you seriously overestimate the appeal of the United States. Most Immigrants that I know only want to support their families or earn enough to buy a business in Mexico and return. Your paranoid and delusional concern really has me scratching my head and wonder why I'm wasting my time; but, here goes:

90% of the earths surface is covered with water. There will always be plenty of water. If we fall short of drinking water then we will have to refine ocean water. That is going to require worker, right? Our main concern right now concerning water is having too much. With global warming and receding ice caps, if you live near the coast, you may find yourself with more water than you would care to have.

As far as food is concerned, this country produces enough food to feed itself, then it feeds countries all over the world with its exports. After that, our Government, with our tax money, buys back the excess surplus and destroys it. To answer that issue I have to say NO, we are not going to run out of food. In fact, everyone in Mexico could come here--if there was enough jobs--and we could easily feed them all. However, if we were to kick every undocumented Mexican out of this country we and much of the world would probably starve because THEY PRODUCE THE MAJORITY OF THE FOOD!!

5. In addition, another important issue I wish to address is in agreement with DavidAbbots point that non of this is going to matter if we don't reinstate our import tariffs and make a serious, and successful effort to bring our manufacturing base back to this country. Without that, we are all doomed.

6. Finally, we have to take a good long look at the policies of President Ronald Wilson Reagan. This Administration put into motion many plans that have resulted in disaster. They need to be reversed ASAP!

Thanks everyone. Have a good one. Back to bed for me. I'll check back next chance I get.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 10 years 17 weeks ago

As an afterthought, I've just one more comment to make before putting this issue to rest. I am always hearing people like Mr. Ware dumping on the poorest, most marginalized people in our society, those who must work longest and hardest for the smallest compensation; those who have the least, condescendingly referred to as "the least among us". And if there is one thing I've absolutely NO sympathy for, it is scapegoating and misdirected anger. Because everyone should know who the real parasites are: banksters, CEOs, insurance hacks and Trust Fund Babies; those who contribute nothing of value to society, yet skim the cream off the top, enjoying all the benefits of other people's hard work, reaping every imaginable reward and advantage society has to offer without even having to lift a finger. This is why I am so fed-up, hearing the same tired old sermons about work ethics and "bettering oneself", ad nauseam... It never applies to EVERYONE; just to the 98% of us who aren't in the Lucky Sperm Club! - Aliceinwonderland

jlane's picture
jlane 10 years 17 weeks ago

DAnneMarc....Go read up on the clean drinkable safe water and then come back and tells us what you think. In fact read up on every question I asked and answer them, don't just cherry pick them and respond with generalities like they were actual FACTS. MY GOD CAN YOU find one single fact to respond to a single question. THIS IS LIKE DEBATING RIGHT GLENN BECKERS. NO facts just generalities and they think that is a valid rebuttal. BS BS.

Over 3 to 4 billion people on this planet make less than $ 3 a day. If just 5% want to come here......200,000,000........what is an acceptable number to you? I think the percentage would be very high in some countries. When I was in India I remember every single person there said yes to that question. So 5% is an unrealistically LOW NUMBER.
When would you say enough is enough?
The world's population increases at about 70 to 90 million a year. If just 5% come the this country a year...3 to 4 million, 40 million every decade, they will most likely bring a propensity for high birth rates with them, 40 million could turn into 80 to 200 million in 10 years. What number is acceptable to you?
Not a hard question.

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