The Boston Marathon Tragedy

Yesterday's horrific Boston Marathon bombing left three people dead and at least 154 injured. Eight-year-old Martin Richard was one of the fatalities. CNN reports that of the 154 people hospitalized yesterday, 41 were listed in serious condition and 17 were critical.

President Obama spoke just hours after the attack, and said, “make no mistake, we will get to the bottom of this and we will find out who did this, we'll find out why they did this. Any responsible individuals, any responsible groups will feel the full weight of justice.”

The hunt for clues of a motive and suspect are still on-going, and the FBI Boston Division is asking the public to check their cell phone cameras for any information or images that could provide clues. Conflicting news reports circulated quickly after yesterday's attack, and authorities say they are still speaking with witnesses, and reviewing evidence collected at the scene.

The Boston Marathon is the world's oldest annual marathon, dating back to 1897, and it's historically been a celebratory event for Massachusetts. Organizers say the marathon will take place again next year, but it will be forever changed after yesterday's tragedy.

One thing is for sure...we must find the person responsible, and bring them to justice. Until then, let's come together as a nation and support those who need us now. Our thoughts and prayers are with everyone impacted by yesterday's horrible events.


Vegasman56 10 years 7 weeks ago

The conservatives austerity type of government, the cost is too high for this country to survive it, and they do not understand that. As is if they are wearing blinders, oblivious to the countries internal security in supporting the local run government, police and fire departments, the emergency responders to tragedies like this, they should be ashamed of their agenda

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Are you quite sure that it is just the "conservatives" that is behind austerity? Read my posts of the last couple of days featuring Michael Hudson, the economist, who seems to think very strongly that the Democrat party is a very big part of what is behind austerity and the so-called "chained CPI". He said that the Republicans would not have been able to get away with took a smiling Democrat to hoodwink us all into these moves.

Oh, and yes, what happened at the Boston Marathon was very terrible....just a sampling of what the US has fomented in their illegal wars, based on lies, in the Middle East. How many innocent civilians died because of US hegemony? How do you like it...Amerika? It's not very much fun is it? I hope to hell that this kind of thing doesn't spread...but, hey, lots of Iraqis, Afghanistanis, Pakistanis, and others have had to live with this kind of terrorism a long time now. But, of course, we don't yet know who it was who did the BM bombings. Maybe our government will come up with a conspiracy theory, like the one they gave us on 911, that will try to pin this on the N. Koreans...or maybe they are not happy with the outcome of the elections in Venezuela and they will try to pin it on left wing Venezuelan terrorists. How about Iran?

It might be a very good idea to just stay home...and stay out of crowded places. It will serve two purposes...reducing your risk of being the poor sucker who is taking the brunt of, perhaps, Middle Eastern retribution and it will also help to boycott the criminal, capitalist, hegemonic pigs that created the tensions in the first place.

Remember? "Accept our carpet of gold or suffer a carpet of bombs!" And that was right before 911. The US already had plans to invade Afghanistan...all they needed was some big show..some big excuse. Capitalist, hegemonic pigs trying to force other countries to knuckle under to US Imperialism is no way to encourage peace in the world. You started it, capitalist pigs! And now we are all going to suffer for the greed of a few capitalist pigs!

You may very well have to kiss all of your "big events" good-bye, and stay out of shopping malls, unless you want total totalitarian police state thugs indiscriminately doing random searches on our streets...breaking into our houses without warrants and ripping apart our belongings in their paranoid search for anything that would make them look to the public like they are "protecting" us.

We'll start to look just like Iraq and Afghanistan...which will usher in our own citizens opposed to a police state running rampant over our privacy. And the government propagandists will conjure up the psychological verbiage like "Al Qaida" or "Taliban" or some other more Americanized versions of psyop fear words.

And if you still think 911 was done by a little old bearded man sitting in a cave in Afghanistan then you are pretty gullible. 911 was an inside job! And I wouldn't even be surprised that the Boston Marathon was an inside job to use a "wag the dog" terrorism to take people's thoughts off of being screwed by greedy capitalist pigs who want to steal our Social Security. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, Dorothy, he just wants to steal your Social Security!"

Remember, the Democrats are in on it as well! Listen to Michael Hudson, the economist. Although, I doubt he has my views on 911 or anything else I've said...but I think he has it very right on how Obama and the Democrats are not really on our side but on the side of those who are screwing us.

hhhuuufff's picture
hhhuuufff 10 years 7 weeks ago

Lets spend the next few days speculating about the bombing! In fact lets use every hour of progressive radio air-time speculating with no real facts:

"A Right-wingnut did it.", "A leftie did it (Dirty Commie variety)", "The 'Gubernment' done did it.", "An invisible Giant did it.", "Angry Elves did it with the help of the Lizard People"..

NOBODY knows who did it. We may NEVER know. Publicizing th hand-wringing of the public is counter-productive and boring radio. Came back to this story when something develops..

U.S. Citizen's picture
U.S. Citizen 10 years 7 weeks ago

I agree with everything Tom writes.

However, we should all step back and think about the thousands of people in other lands who face this type of tragedy almost daily--at the hands of U.S. drones, bombs and military attacks.

leighmf's picture
leighmf 10 years 7 weeks ago

F- for Homeland Security

“This will be a worldwide investigation. We will go to the ends of the earth to find the subject or subjects responsible for this despicable crime,” said Richard DesLauriers, the special agent in charge of the Boston FBI office."

This quote from the Globe out to tip everyone off it was an inside attack. They will point fingers in every direction and look everywhere except under our own noses.

There's no place like Home...There's no place like Home...There's no place like Home...There's no place like Home...

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

To believe the 911 attack was staged by the government is a step into a complete state of paranoia, believing the government needed an excuse to attack Afghanistan just does not make any sense. What would the government gain by attacking a country with no natural resources and a military that virtually was nonexistent? The Cold War was over and technology has made the need of being on Russia's back door an unneeded advantage. The only viable concept is that we went into Afghanistan after the terrorists who actually put together and implemented the attacks on N.Y.C., the Pentagon and the White House. The terrorists or Al Qaida were themselves unaware that they would be able to actually bring down the towers, they were hoping to knock out the commercial entities located in these two buildings and strike fear into the hearts of Americans that felt they were untouchable. They had a record of attacking smaller targets like the naval vessel that was attacked in a foreign port and several sailors were killed. The reason for going into Iraq is a different matter with several viable reasons why G. Bush and Cheney felt the invasion was needed. From finishing the job Bush senior left uncompleted in his son's mind to stealing the vast oil reserves Iraq has is why we ended up in a war that destroyed Iraq and helped to push our country deeper into debt. The trumped up charges that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction to the lies Saddam was involved with Al Qaida were all lies that led us into an illegal war with a country that had not attacked American interests at that time and was virtually crippled militarily from the Gulf War. How does one leap from Afghanistan to the conspiracy theory the Bush Whitehouse staged 911 to attack Iraq?

As far as the bombings that occurred in Boston yesterday, I believe we will discover that it was actually an American psychopath or a home grown terrorists group that attack innocent civilians made up of men, women and children. It sounds like something a group like the Weathermen from the 1960's would do to make a political point against our government. I truly believe the people who think it was another government plot to refund the military after the Sequestration cuts that he President and the Democrats pushed through Washington in 2010 just does not make any rational sense. The politicians who voted for the Austerity measures could simply vote to change the laws that required implementation of this poison pill austerity legislation. Why kill a few innocent civilians and injury hundreds to reinstate funding for the military and increase surveillance on America. They have already pushed the envelope to the limits on that issue; they do not need any additional reasons for what they are already doing! The chance of being found out is too great and the payoff is too small to implement such a hideous act on innocent people. Would this administration try to pull off something like this in the Middle East, without a doubt the answer is yes. But trying to pull off this act of terrorism against its own people on home soil is a far reach of the imagination into the realm of conspiracy theories.

I once thought ( very recently) that violence was the only means left to people to change the course of this nation. I thought the only method that would shake up the cronies in Washington and the Corporations that fund them was to bring violence into the streets to hamper profits by the destruction of their capital. I was wrong and I can see that any violence that would bring harm to innocent civilians would not be worth the gain made in that manner. It took an event like the bombing yesterday to make me realize that anything but peaceful measures by mass demonstrations that could shut down commerce and therefore hamper profit making for the Wealthy and the Corporations is the only logical way to address the issues that are facing our nation today. We need million man (women and children too) marches to get our message across that putting the burden on the backs of the middleclass and the poor will not be tolerated. Violence will only be met with more violence and the end results will be the harming of innocent people, like those who were killed and wounded by some madman or terrorist group. Those actions can no longer be seen as a viable and just means to bring about change. I truly hope those who were involved in this terrorist act will be found and prosecuted to the fullest means of the law. And, I hope we will come together as a nation to address what is happening to us at the hands of those in power and we can find means to demonstrate that we will no longer tolerate this abuse by peaceful means by the masses who would band together to make change happen by peaceful means. I truly hope those who were injured and the families of those who were killed will find comfort in knowing that we all feel their pain when we consider it could have been one of our loved ones that was struck down by this senseless violence and the capture and punishment of those responsible will bring an end to their need to vent any revenge towards the coward(s) that harmed them, with the knowledge we as a nation will not tolerate such acts by any person or group. My simple words are all I can share to state that this tragedy has affected us all even though only a few were killed and a hundred or more were injured, it would have been too many if it had only been one that had been killed or injured! K.W.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Vegasman56 - Just to let you in on a secret, it was Obama and the Democrats that passed the Sequestration Bill that is now imposing Austerity cuts across the full spectrum of programs today. All the cuts to our firefighters, police and teachers is due to the bill they voted into law in 2010 when they had full control of the Senate and House. Yes, it is the Republicans that want cuts to all social programs, but the Democrats and Obama passed the Sequestration bill that is now under mining our safety net. Both parties are at fault for what is happening. The Democrats do not want the people (voters) to know they implemented the Austerity cuts we are feeling and will feel into the fore seeable future. K.W.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken Ware ~ A very touching comment indeed! Power through Peace! I like that! I agree 100%. Thank you!

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary ~ You are 100% spot on. Agreed!

BTW Have you heard they have determined that the bombs were home made pressure cooker powered weapons. In my humble opinion, since the perpetrators haven't yet come public I suspect that this was either a clumsy inside job or the doings of a clever lunatic. I'm starting to doubt a False Flag because in that case a suspect is usually quickly identified and is eager to take credit to forward an agenda. If a foreign entity is blamed before they take credit I would strongly suspect False Flag. What are your thoughts?

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 10 years 7 weeks ago

What bill in 2010?

The only reason the democrats voted for sequestration is to prevent the repugs from destroying the world economy.

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 10 years 7 weeks ago

There are democrats that are conservatives (AKA totally owned by the corporatists). Mary Landreux and Ben Nelson come to mind.

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 10 years 7 weeks ago

The democrats only had full control of the senate for 2 1/2 months. The first 2 1/2 months of 2009. Full control means cloture (sp?) proof.

akunard's picture
akunard 10 years 7 weeks ago

Same crack team that hunted down and brought to justice the Benghazi attackers.

Kend's picture
Kend 10 years 7 weeks ago

What crack team Akunard, wasn't it because of a video?

my heart goes out to all my American friends for this terrible tradegy. We shouldn't jump to any conclusions on who did this though. But when they catch them we should lay them down on the finish line at next years race for all the racers to stomp on them as they finish. Just a suggestion.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 10 years 7 weeks ago

Being a distance runner myself, this senseless act of cowardice really hits close to home. I ran Boston twice during the 80's and as usual had friends running this year. Thankfully all are OK. A close friend was there with his girlfriend, a top masters runner. He said they were several blocks away by the time the bombings occurred. I got through to him about 7:30 last night and he indicated that the Hotel they were staying at was filled with other elite runners and a Swat Team was guarding the entrance. I could tell he was pretty shaken by the whole thing.

I fight back tears as I think about the innocent victims including the eight year old. I however do cling to hope as a result of the heroic humanity displayed by all who came to the aid of the victims. This includes the runners who kept right on running to nearby hospitals to donate blood. In the end I truly feel that the spirit of selfless kindness triumphed over the madness and evil of the day.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken ware: Glad to see you rethinking the idea that violence was the only means left for change. I happen to believe the social media is a major key to change, in our times anyway. How else can we challenge the corp. media with truth and facts?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken: Afghanistan has lots of natural resources not to mention the space to put a pipeline to transport oil from Turkmenistan, and the other Stans, to the Arabian Sea.

As I said before...our oil companies and our government officials tried to wine and dine and even bribe Afghanistan into agreeing to a pipeline. And then they turned to threats that would be, if made against any other country, would be considered a declaration of war. "Accept our carpet of gold or suffer a carpet of bombs".

Besides, the Bush administration desperately wanted our forces in Afghanistan so that they could then move on Iraq. Saddam Husein was not being a good little dictator willing to be pushed around by the US and he was going to break from the dollar hegemony and sell his oil for Euros or Chinese Renminbi. Iran and Venezuela was hot on that idea as well. The US dollar empire was crumbling.

All that oil around the northeastern areas around the Caspian sea was more vulnerable to being taken by China. China, having been boosted into a manufacturing mecca for goods wanted all over the world...especially, the US, was starting to require a very large amount of oil. More people were driving vehicles than ever before in China. The explosion of skyscrapers, and other buildings, all required lots of oil and the US realized that China would gobble up all the oil. What the US wanted was control of the oil. If western oil companies controlled the oil then they could moderate China's growth and power as well as keep oil prices high so the rest of us would have to pay top dollar for it. China doesn't even want to have anything to do with the US Dollar anymore...they are buying up gold...they see where the US Dollar is headed.

Alternative theories to the official conspiracy theory are not at all far-fetched when you consider how full of holes, proven lies and obfuscations, and non sequiturs that run rampant in the official conspiracy theory of OBL masterminding it, getting 19 people to hijack 4 airliners (3 of which hit their targets) during a time when our government/military was doing a massive training exercise entailing the premise of hijackers crashing into the WTC towers. Oh, excuse me, is this a drill, or what?

How did OBL know about the exercise enough to get the hijackers to do their thing during a time when confusion could arise from a drill. Besides there is other precedence in history where conducting drills or exercises are a prelude to an actual attack. You feign exercises and then, when the right moment comes, you go for the jugular. And in this case it was Neocons setting up the ruse of Muslim terrorist hijackers against the people of the United States. The prize was the shock and awe created in the US citizens who were easily led through the nose by a grand false flag operation. Just like FDR played his Japan card...the Bush administration played their Middle East Terrorist card.

And why were certain FBI agents, who were tailing and watching some of these "terrorists" while they were being trained on how to fly small aircraft, who sent out alerts (reports) to their higher ups get totally ignored? Why did Dick Cheney change the chain of command to put himself solely in charge of decisions in the event of a terrorist attack? Why did they hastily ship all those WTC beams out of the country to be melted down when they could have been, should have been, analyzed by independent experts in metallurgy and structural engineers?

Why did NIST totally ignore the possibility of explosives, and wouldn't even investigate that possibility? Why didn't the Pentagon use the anti-aircraft weapons they had on top of the Pentagon to protect it from such an attack? How could a hijacker, who could barely fly a Cessna, manage that last minute very tight circular-while-descending maneuver and then continue to fly at speeds that many airliner pilots said would be impossible because of the air density that near to the ground? They said that the wings would have been ripped off. When airliners make landings they are moving very slow..whatever hit the Pentagon was not traveling at landing speed. Was it, in reality, a missile or a military aircraft that could make such maneuvers? What about the initial photos of the hole in the damage to the areas that should have shown the damage caused by wings or at least the engines. Why is that? Did the wings, tail, engines suddenly vaporize or disappear before impact?

Many experienced airliner pilots said that even they would not have been able to pull off such a stunt! Why did they confiscate all of the video evidence from the many surveillance cameras around the Pentagon except that one that didn't really show anything? Except, maybe the fact that the blur was caused by something traveling very a missile? Why did the fighter jets get moved from Andrews to a base further south and why did they scramble out over the ocean totally missing all the action in the opposite direction where the planes were hijacked?

And how could the WTC building fall straight down at near free fall unless the supporting structural members were blown out with in a typical demolition? That's just what it looked like...a skillfully executed demolition!

Dust samples from 911 all show that they contain not only micro-spheres of molten iron but also traces of high tech nano thermite and other trace elements that would be created in a thermitic reaction. Nano thermite cannot be made by just anyone..but the military and NIST had been playing around with this stuff since it was first invented...and nano thermite hasn't been around very long...only about 10 years prior to 911. Thermite, of course, has been around a lot longer; but, although it can rapidly melt through an engine block, it takes a little while to do it..a few seconds anyway. Nano-thermite is a specially made, high-tech, thermite that can instantaneously melt through thick iron is pretty much an explosive..but not anywhere as loud as normal explosives. And there is photo evidence showing at least one vertical beam with the typical slanted cut that one would expect to see in a demolition...shaped charges to get the building to fall in it's own footprint.

Buildings cannot fall at anywhere near free fall without instantly removing the supporting beams. Many engineers have said that the airplane, it's fuel, and the burning office materials could not have come anywhere close to melting steel beams..not even weakening them enough to cause the collapse we saw on 911. And no other steel building has even collapsed due to fire..even fires caused by airplanes hitting them. And these WTC buildings were actually designed to keep from collapsing if an airliner hit them.

The planes hit on one side of the buildings which is mostly where the fires from that crash occurred...on one side....which would mean that the building top would have had to buckle over to one side. There is no way those planes caused those buildings to fall straight down at near free fall speed. And Building 7 came straight down at near free fall speed as well and no plane even hit that building.

This is only a few of the questions that need to be answered.

I'd say that the paranoid ones are the ones who won't accept that their own government would be behind this very glaringly obvious terrorist action. And they won't even look at the evidence. They hide their heads in the sands of propaganda created by the criminal elite who have a vested interest in scaring people out of their freedoms...and what little wealth they have left. 911 was an inside job!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken: I would tend to agree that the so-called "terrorist hijackers" didn't even know that they were being used as patsies by a collusion of Neocons and, perhaps even OBL who was still working for the CIA. Certainly, the Saudis and perhaps even Israel had a hand in this. Most of the alleged hijackers were Saudi anyway. They were not very good Muslims, though, because they drank like fish and partied at lap dance joints. They made themselves very visible by arrogantly boasting and even making outright threats against the US. They acted almost like they were trying to get attention. I suspect, however, that in light of the fact that none of them could really fly anything but a small aircraft that their training was done for the purpose of setting them up as patsies. After the hijackings, I suspect the planes were taken over electronically by ground control, or even pre-programmed on-board guidance systems, to target the WTC buildings and I suspect the pentagon was not hit by that airliner but by a missile. I don't believe the "hijackers" had the skill to hit the towers. That really is pretty far fetched...that hijackers who could barely fly Cessnas had the skill to accurately target those buildings. As huge as they the speeds that the airliners were would have been like trying to hit a gnat from 100 feet with a someone who couldn't really throw darts.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken: Yes, you may be correct about the Boston Marathon bombings...we don't yet know who set those off. But if our government comes out with the story like the whopper they told us about 911 then I would have to doubt their story.

Outback 10 years 7 weeks ago

PD - I'm not an expert in building demolition, but from what I've observed, buildings are typically taken down from the bottom up. Isn't that the case? Blow out the supporting structure and the mass of the building collapses upon itself.

But from my recollection of the collapse of the towers, they pancaked. The top floors pushed down through the floors below. How do you explain that?

I'm prepared to believe that there is something very special that happens to an over-large structure like the WTC. Materials strength vs mass vs trauma. This thing may just have been too big to recover from the hits it took.

Not a possibility?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

DAnnemarc: Yes, I had heard the "pressure cooker" story. Now I wonder how they can walk down a crowded sidewalk with a pressure cooker stuffed into a backpack (I'd also heard of backpacks). The typical "pressure cooker" is actually pretty big and would be pretty hard to stuff into a back pack. The thought I had was that if the story of pressure cookers was true then one has to ask oneself...who would one expect to have "pressure cookers"...especially on a crowded sidewalk. Oh, I know, hot dog vendors! Or anyone pushing around a little cart. Now, I know New York has some famous hot dogs "to die for" but I've never heard of them actually exploding before.

Actually, I think if it was a real nation-state wanting to do damage to us...countries like Iran, N. Korea...or even others not usually on our radar...may already have some real whoppers already planted around the country. By whoppers, I mean nukes. They could have planted them years ago...smuggled them in piece by piece and assembled them later. The US has not seemed to me to be very cautious when it came to allowing certain workers from other countries to come here and stay for lengthy periods of time (and I'm not talking about Mexico)...although, you might be surprised..they ain't all field peons...many are very sharp techies. As a matter of fact I sometimes felt like a field peon when I had to do work of a highly technical nature over there...not that I was lacking in technical ability but that many of the people I associated with were pretty smart.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Outback: But there WERE explosions in the basement survivor that worked down in one of the multiple-level basements reported them and that other employees were walking around like zombies with flesh melted off their bodies.

If you carefully watch videos of the towers collapsing, notice the squibs that shoot out of the windows, at great speeds, several floors below the actual collapsing locations and this happens all the way down. It's like the collapsing boundary is chasing the squibs all the way down. Also huge beams were found hundreds of feet from the WTC towers. Also note that the concrete was all pulverized..turned into dust and this is the dust from where the dust samples were created. And yes, I realize that most of the concrete was in the floors.

These dust sample were scientifically analyzed and were found to contain evidence of nano thermite and evidence of extremely high temperatures which was necessary to create the micro spheres. Molten iron hurled through the air at great speeds. The other chemical fingerprints in the dust also shows evidence of nano thermite reaction. The dust samples were taken shortly after the sample was taken about 10 minutes after the collapse of one building had accumulated on top of a bridge railing. Other samples were taken just blocks from the WTC site a couple of days later. One woman's window was broken and the dust had piled inside...she collected the dust in baggies, I believe.

There is another difference between the typical demolition of a that they normally use commonly used explosives...not nano thermite. Normal explosive are much louder than nano thermite which can account for why the collapsing buildings did not sound as loud as they might have had they used normal explosives. Engineers at Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth believe that they used a combination of normal explosives along with nano thermite. With nano thermite, it didn't take as many normal explosives to bring the buildings down.

The destroyed vehicles in the area all exhibited characteristics of being corroded by elements that would have been created in a nano thermite reaction.

There were many reports by those in the area at the time of the collapse...the firefighters and others...the first responders...said they heard a succession of rapid explosions as the building collapsed.

And that one photo I mentioned before, taken right after the collapse, showed a vertical beam that had what looked like a perfectly cut beam at the correct angle that would have been used to demolish buildings.

Why would so many, thousands, of professional people like architects and engineers...along with pilots, policemen, firemen, just to name a few, all know that the story that the government has told us is not possible.

Even if that pancake theory were true...but it is's bogus..the buildings would not have fallen at near free fall speed. Each floor beneath the falling ones above would present a resistance to the falling mass and slow the process down. If one had dropped a bowling ball from the top of one of the WTC buildings, it would have hit the ground just slightly before the top floor would have. Those WTC buildings looked just like a demolition because that exactly what they were.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - I have no doubt that you are intelligent and well versed in what you are saying. Over the past several months I have taken a more aggressive manner when commenting on your P.O.V. and it was the wrong approach and neither of us has moved one inch in either direction. Call me naive or to patriotic to see what the government has done. Based purely on a cost to benefit, the Bush Administration had no need for such an elaborate plot to go to war with Iraq. As far as the natural resources go and pipelines do you really think the Taliban would allow any government or corporation to use their homeland for profit. We are getting out of there as fast as we can and still have some dignity left, those who have been in power have made billions of our dollars and will probably leave as soon as we do or shortly thereafter. Have you any proof that there are plans in the making to do any of the things you claim, if so please present them. As far as the hijackers being pawns of the American government, I suppose you believe the Bush administration was able to keep all of the information about their training to fly commercial aircraft a total secret and the agents that were watching them, in order to use them in the scheme you have presented, also took part in the plan to use the terrorists as pawns to do the governments work for them. I have read the articles you have posted and I do not deny they are well educated people, but so are those who state they are wrong and primarily theorists out to blame the government for any wrong doing that happens. The support structure was primarily the outer skeleton that was weakened and allowed the floors to pancake. I could go on and make statements that disagree with your rational, but we have been here before and neither of us we see it any differently, so I think we should agree to disagree on this subject since we have gone over it several times in the past and so I will leave it at that. In my simple mind I do not see the benefit compared to the cost of being exposed as the people who killed 3000 innocent people to go to war, when we could have gone to war over several other instances we were attacked by the terrorists in the past. On the other hand Osama Bin laden and his group thrived on attacking any enemy they saw as an enemy to their god, especially after they beat the Russians after ten years of fighting. Why is it so hard to believe they financed a dozen men to be trained to take over airliners and crash them into our buildings, but it is so easy to think the American government under Bush and Cheney would plot to destroy major structures, not to mention the Pentagon, in order to have a reason to go to war? There much easier ways to go to war then to prepare an elaborate scheme like 911. I respect your right to believe what you will, just do the same for mine. K.W. P.S. I am sure you are much more informed when it comes to your resources in making your theory, I just believe it was the terrorists, so I guess in your mind I am just one of the hundreds of millions of Americans that think the terrorists did it as a simple minded guy who has been duped and bought into the scam perpetrated by our government. So be it...

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Never has so much evidence been shown to so many people, and never has so many people refused to really look or listen to that evidence. It is obviously cognitive dissonance brought on by the fear that those you've always expected to protect you are actually treasonous criminals too big to big to even suspect or question..even if you are a President of the United States.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

chuckle8 - The bill was originally designed in the White House and given to Senator Reid. You are correct in your statement that the House majority fell to the Republicans in the 2010 election. The Budget Control Act passed by the Republicans and the Democrats in congress and signed by President Obama in Aug. 2011 included the Sequestration or automatic cuts with the expiration of the tax cuts. When Congress could not agree on a budget, Sequestration went into affect as we went over the so called, "Fiscal Cliff" in Jan. 2013 and Sequestration was put off until Mar. 2013. This information was found in Wikipedia under Fiscal Cliff and Sequestration.

I stand corrected: It was the Democrats and the Republicans who passed the Budget Control Act in 2011, which included the Sequestration and the end of the Bush tax cuts and was signed by Obama.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Ken: But, I believe that the so-called hijackers were meant, by the Neocon conspiracists , to be noticed. To be noticed, would only work to be remembered after the deed was done. If they were real enemy agents, ie: not working for the internal powers of this country, then they would have had to worry about being discovered and jailed. But they had no such fear. Why? Because they were being assisted from within this country by the ones who planned the whole thing. A number of FBI agents certainly noticed them and reported them but were ignored. Don't you find that a little strange? The way the 'hijackers' were acting...they seemed to want to be noticed. No one was really trying to hide what they were doing. Now why would a cabal of terrorists do such a thing if they wanted to succeed in a covert mission against a very powerful country? Loose lips, sink ships! Why would the higher ups at the FBI ignore agent's reports? There was "hands off" all the way from letting them into the country (except for one that didn't make it because a true American border agent heard the alarm bells and acted on it) to letting them on the planes that were hijacked. From then on, it was electronic hijacking and a guidance system that accurately guided the flights to their targets.

And as I have already stated, even if the buildings did "pancake" the way you think they did...there still would have been a resistance to free fall speed because the intact lower levels would have provided that resistance until overcome by the weight and downward momentum of the upper floors. The only way those buildings could have come down at the speed they came down was if the lower supporting structures presented no resistance to the downward force. It looked just like a demolition because it WAS a demolition. The squibs help support that...the huge beams and even body parts thrown hundreds of feet shows that, and the scientific evidence of explosives and nano thermite shows that..and lots of other evidence shows that.

Remember, the people who designed these buildings did so with the ability to withstand airliners crashing into them.

And do I think you and a lot of other Americans, even very intelligent ones, have been duped...scammed...yes, I do!
But a lot of other very intelligent people who know physics, metallurgy, architecture, pilots, and other professionals have spoken out...and it is unusually brave of them to have done so. The witch burning mentality did not die with the Middle Ages and is alive and well today in the form of another kinds of religion....called jingoism...called cognitive dissonance...called too damn lazy or stubborn to read, or look at, the evidence. I guess they are too scared about what they may discover.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - I have read your comments and it is the same things you have been stating since we have been disagreeing on the conspiracy theory you embrace for several months. I still respectively believe your theory does not convince me that your theory is even remotely correct. Every time I state something you come back with the same patent statement trying to present facts that can be shown to be untrue or happened by another means. I watched a program where one of the individuals that helped create the plans for the towers explained how the outer structure lost its integrity because to the impact and heat and subsequently he believed that is why the towers fell. The idea of having the support of the building in the outside skeleton rather than on the inside as most traditional buildings have was to save room on the inside where the beams could have been set. This can be written off as something I heard as well! We can both sit here and state he said this or this person has shown that test prove their were explosions that brought down the support beams or how the Pentagon's defenses were not operating at the time of the incident. I have talked to friends of mine who are Republicans and they repeat the same conspiracy theories they have heard on TV. or have read in an article. Neither they nor you are able to present any concrete evidence that the government was involved in these terrorists’ acts. That is why they are called theories. Have a good evening... K.W. Do you really think I am too scared of knowing the truth? I really thought you knew me better than that! I have refrained from calling you names, do you really want to go there with me? Not a good idea my friend...

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago
Quote Ken:
The support structure was primarily the outer skeleton that was weakened and allowed the floors to pancake.

Actually, Ken, the supporting structure was the central core..very large and massive vertical beams. The outer skeleton was used for stability and very lightweight compared to the central core. The outer skeleton was used to resist wind, mostly. The aircraft only took out a few outer structures, among many that remained intact. And if the pancake theory were true, then why didn't the central core remain stuck up into the sky...or topple over intact? But that didn't happen, did it. Yes, there were some vertical beams sticking up but they were no where near the height of what the central core would have been or as massive. Besides, you would have seen the central core emerging out of the pancaking building in the videos. No, man, each floor was demolished...central core and all.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

I didn't call you names, Ken..except by the name.. Ken. I actually think you are very intelligent. But there's no sense in getting upset...just because you are losing this argument...sorry..but I believe you are. I know you tend to get a little too emotional and lose your temper a lot.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if you have a very tall building that is largely supported by a very massive inner structure of vertical beams and if the braces or brackets that attach the horizontal members.. at the floors beams...give way...and pancaking occurs...then the floor slips down but the central columns should remain stuck in the air?

Now, you seem to have it all think the outer structure was the supporting structure. But even the reports I've read that try to maintain the fallacious idea of pancaking floors say that the central core was the main means of supporting the building and the outer members were for providing a certain amount of rigidity to prevent the building from being blown over in a strong wind, and, yes, to take an impact of a jet liner, yet giving enough to prevent fatigue failure.

So, a massive central core would fit into a pancaking theory except it wouldn't explain why the central core wasn't protruding out the top as the building fell....which it would have done if it really pancaked. But each floor collapsed, including the central core. How could that be? The central core would have had to be demolished with explosives...or an army of little dwarfs with giant hacksaws!
I try to be very careful not to call people names. When I say "some people" or whatever...I am not saying "you". But if that's the way you want to take it then...I'm sorry you feel that way about someone else trying to express his opinion about something.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - I am also sorry; you are incorrect concerning the main support beams. I will try to locate more information concerning this subject and get back to you with the truth of how the towers were constructed. Also, you are mistaken when you say I get angry. I am aggressive by nature and you have mistaken aggressiveness for anger

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - Even with the report from the N.I.S.T. I am sure you will claim they are part of the conspiracy to cover up the government’s involvement with 9/11. In your mind you will see that they produced this report for Congress, therefore they cannot be trusted. So in your reality no matter what proof or information I bring forward, you will dismiss it as being part of the conspiracy. That is why I feel it is a no win situation when discussing the destruction of the Towers. Especially since you actually had the balls to state O.B.L. was working with the government concerning the towers! Perhaps I read that wrong. I will hold back from commenting about how you arrived at this conclusion on this issue because it would be a useless and not worth the effort. But, I wanted to show you there were actually people with the credentials and the ability to make an honest evaluation concerning this matter, not that it will have any impact on your belief system when it comes to our government. K.W. Please over look any spelling or grammar mistakes I may have made, it is very late and I am too tired to proof read my comments. Have a nice (delusional) day! Ha..

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - here is a copy of the transcripts from the investigation conducted for Congress by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. You were right about the main support beams and this report explains what happened and what caused the towers to fall. This information was copied from This report supports what I believe happened on 9/11 to the twin towers. Ken Ware.


SHAYM SUNDER: I'm Shyam Sunder. I am the lead investigator for the World Trade Center investigation that was conducted by the National Institute of Standards in Technology.

In many typical investigations, you have a partially collapsed building standing there that can be looked at by engineers.

In the case of the World Trade Center towers, the buildings had collapsed. And also there was an immediate need for search and rescue of people who might have been buried under the rubble. So there was also a need to clear the site as quickly as possible. It's very unusual that the evidence is so completely scattered, and that made our investigation a lot more complicated.

We realized that we had to model the complete aircraft impact. We had to model the evolution of the fires over the next hour, or hour and half. We had to model how the steel weakened as a result of the high temperatures. And lastly, we had to model the progression of failures-- local failures in the structure, which then led to the overall initiation of collapse. Each of these stages had very sophisticated models that were validated using the photographic evidence we have, validated using laboratory experiments that we conducted. And validated, ultimately, based on how the buildings actually collapsed using videos.


Through a fairly sophisticated analysis of the video information, we were able to determine the airplane speed, direction of the airplane, and the orientation of the airplane as each of the airplanes impacted each of the buildings.

The north tower was hit at 8:46 by a 767-200 extended range airplane, between the 93rd and the 99th floor. The airplane was flying at about 550 miles an hour, with a total weight of somewhere on the order of 283,000 pounds.

The second building to be hit, which was hit 16 minutes later, was hit on the south face of the south tower. Again by a 767-200 extended range airplane, but this time between floors 77 and 85.

And one of the questions that comes out from looking at this information is how is it here we have two seemingly similar buildings—they were called Twin Towers—and they were hit by nearly identical airplane, but how come one building lasted for 102 minutes, the other building lasted for 56 minutes, which is nearly a factor of two.


On the outside of the buildings, on the perimeter, there were about 59 to 60 columns on each face. The first thing that happened as the airplanes went through the dense grid of column is that they got disintegrated by the columns, which acted like knife edges. Pieces of the airplane actually came out from the other end. For example, we had landing gear come out from the south side of building one, and we had an engine component come out from the northeast corner of building two.

The debris that was generated by the airplanes covered nearly between four and six floors of the buildings. Of course, in addition to the debris, we also had jet fuel that was dispersed in that region.

On the interior, in the core of the building, these buildings had 47 columns-- fairly massive columns inside. In the case of building one, six of the columns were severed and three of them were heavily damaged. In the case of building two, 10 of them were severed, and one was heavily damaged.

What is very important to note is that in the case of building two, that damage to the core was heavily in the southeast corner. So, it's like looking at a three or four legged stool, and essentially taking out one leg. Inherently, the second building was a lot more unstable than the first building, and one of the key reasons why the second building collapsed much faster.


A number of factors contributed to having a very large, multi-floor fire that was uncontrollable. First and foremost, the sprinkler system was not functional, because the water supply to the sprinkler system was damaged by the airplane impacts.

We had dispersion of very large amounts of jet fuel through multiple floors, igniting fires through a large segment of all of those floors, which is very, very unusual.

Most of the jet fuel was burned in a matter of a few minutes-- maybe five or six minutes, but certainly less than ten minutes. Furthermore, about a third of the jet fuel actually burned outside the building, as a result of the fire balls.

So, what really was burning for the next hour or hour and a half was the everyday contents of the buildings. The workstations, the computers, the paper, the carpets and so forth.

In building one, the fires moved from location to location, every 20 minutes, consuming the combustibles in any given location. And as long as the windows kept breaking to provide the air that was needed for combustion, the fire kept propagating. Toward the end of the period when the buildings were about to collapse, the fires were actually on the south side of the building. And it's the south side of the building that played a key role in the collapse.

In the case of building two, a significant amount of the combustible debris was piled up on the east face of the building. And therefore, there was a persisting fire in the same location for a very, very long time. And the second reason for the early collapse of the second building was really this persisting fire on the east face of the building.


The World Trade Center towers would likely not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage, and the extensive multi-floor fires if the fireproofing had not been widely dislodged by the aircraft impact.

What was applied to these buildings was spray-applied fireproofing. And the use of this kind of fireproofing for the floor system, the floor trusses, was very unusual.

When you heat steel up, and particularly when there's no fireproofing, the steel tends to soften, and loses strength and stiffness. It becomes very much like play dough.

In addition to the columns weakening, the floors that were in the vicinity of those faces also weakened. And as a result of that, the floors sagged. And the sagging of the floors actually helped pull the external columns inward. And caused an inward bowing of the external columns. That is captured in photographs.

What then happened after the inward bowing is there was a stage at which a critical amount of inward bowing took place, and the columns snapped. And essentially the columns, once they snapped, the inwardly-bowed columns suddenly sprung back and out. And once that happened, the top mass, that rigid mass of somewhere on the order of 10 to 20 floors just started moving downward.

And the structure below, because of the fracturing of the columns just before it, that had snapped, was unable to withstand the energy that was released.

The primary reason for the collapse was the fact that you had massive airplane damage. A massive amount of fireproofing that was dislodged, and a really huge fire, that all three combined initiated the collapse. There was no one particular event that played a more significant role. It was a combination of events that led to a general system collapse of the building.


Our investigations are geared toward fact finding, and they're geared toward enhancing safety of buildings in the future. They're not geared toward fault finding. However, what I am able to say is that we did not find a deficiency in the building, in terms of the building being inconsistent with the New York City building codes, in a way that influenced the outcome of 9/11.

We made 30 recommendations as a result of the investigation. Both in the area of structural design, and in the area of evacuation and emergency response, we can make considerable improvements with minimal investment. And the return is going to be exceedingly high for those minimal investments. Particularly since, when we are dealing with tall buildings, we're dealing with the lives of a very large number of people.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

Palindromedary - Number 32 comment should have come after number 32, but I made a correction in the spelling of one word so they reversed the order of the comments I made. I just wanted to let you know in the event there was any confusion in how the first comment sounds like it should be after number 33.

Outback 10 years 7 weeks ago

PD - I'll admit I haven't read much related to the conspiricy theory you speak of. But I have to take Ken Ware's side on this one. For one thing, Occam's Razor must come into play here. As you know, that's the principle that states "the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one". Bin Laden had been linked to other acts of terror and was highly motivated to strike at the United States. In fact, we had advance intelligence indicating just that intention. It's also the case that OBL was an engineer and this kind of thing would have appealed to him. I'm not claiming that he single handedly ran the calculations that determined it was possible to bring down the towers with aircraft, but as you pointed out earlier, some of those foreign dudes are pretty smart. And what if they hadn't even imagined that the towers would collapse? Wouldn't it have been enough just to inflict the kind of damage on the WTC with the planes that would have otherwise occurred?

A second, and even more compelling argument against the conspiracy theory is that, as you describe it, a very large number of insiders would have had to be involved to pull this off if it were in fact an "inside job". Think about just the logistics of planting all that explosive and the control system that would be needed to detonate it. How about all the FBI and CIA and other people "in the know" that would have had to maintain rigid discipline in order to keep the lid on? And even if that were possible, a dozen years later, someone, maybe multiple someones would have cracked by now and spilled the beans. Either that, or a whole lot of people would have had to be "disappeared", some of them high ranking. I think this would be glaringly obvious.

While I believe that there are certain people evil enough to conceive something like this (e.g., Dick Cheney) I don't believe it could have been pulled off in secrecy. If anyone in the Bush Administration was in fact complicit in any of this, It was probably limited to suppressing the intelligence that could have prevented the act.

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 10 years 7 weeks ago

KEN WARE I am so at a loss for words. I know you are a man who holds true to certain virtues and you don't necessarilly need approval from others to feel right. That being said I want to say I am over joyed with your "Non-violent call to action". I know in past post I have been extremely crittical of you and your hostility, and I want you to know that I very much wanted to open a discussion with you but all too often I avoided it by instead bashing your charecter...Which was very ignorant on my part.

Anyway both my wife, son and I would join you in an agressive yet peaceful march against the vile corporations that treat life as if it is cheap, by disregarding the rights and wellbeing of the average person, by any means necessary just to maintain control and turn a profit.

If WE the People truely want to quill violence and greed than We the People MUST hold true the principles that this country was founded on; The EQUAL RIGHT to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. It is We the People's duty to alter or abolish any government that becomes destructive of those end principles.

If We put aside our politics and religious differences, and unite as a mass of Peaceful Liberated Americans we can send a powerful message...One that clearly settles the argument of "who" runs the show.
Now I am not so sophmoric to think that victory would come easily, Gahndi didn't liberate India over night and yes violence did break out, but his success was not one that encouraged picking up weapons. As you may recall one of the worse events was when a English Army Troop opened fire on unarmed civilians (men women and children) and massacred them. In the end it was egg in the face of the English Parlement and it's Military.

I personally don't want to "over throw" the government, just remind them as to who this country belongs to.

Corporations are powerful entities, however their greatest weakness is that they need consumers in order to thrive; and not just consumers...Happy, Healthy Consumers.

The Occupy Wall Street movement had the right idea, unfortunatly they didn't have the organization/leadership skills and where-with-all to further carry their cause beyond the novelty of protesting.
I wonder if We are finally ready to take to get off the "Internet Fight" and take to the streets?

ken ware's picture
ken ware 10 years 7 weeks ago

MMmmNACHOS - Thank you for your comment. I guess it is not too late for this old dog to learn from events that happen in our world. I just hope enough people wake up and start massive non-violent protests as was done in Washington with the Million Man March. I still believe there are people out there who will find others who think that acts of violence and an armed clash with the government is needed for change. Hopefully, I will never be proven right. The bombing in Mass., was so unspeakably wrong, that I hope people come together to voice what is wrong with Washington, in a massive but peaceful manner. Violence should be the last resort when protecting one's family and him or herself if attacked by some perpetrator. If we use violence as a means of protests it will be meant by the military and para-military police and the end result would only be a negative situation where innocent people of all ages will be hurt or killed. I will be one of the first protesters carrying a sign in a friendly manner of change. I believe my first grandchild, who be born in five weeks, as well as the bombing of innocent people in Mass. made me realize that any violence brought forth by Americans will only have a negative outcome, especially since we are a nation of heavily armed citizens who seem to respond with violence if we see ourselves as being violated by another entity! It would be chaos that could escalate into a situation that could and would destroy what is left of our personal freedoms. K.W.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago
Quote Ken:
You were right about the main support beams

Ken: It's funny how you are able to make emphatic statements about how I was wrong (the beams, etc) and then turn right around, after you have done a little reading on the matter, and admit that I was right. This has happened many times now. Well, at least I have to thank you for eventually admitting you were wrong. I believe that you actually believe what you are saying at the time you are saying it even though you are very wrong about what you are saying. But, you still persist in asserting that all of the rest of the points I made are fallacious...just wacko conspiracy theories. And then you try to use a report by NIST.

Quote Ken:
Even with the report from the N.I.S.T. I am sure you will claim they are part of the conspiracy to cover up the government’s involvement with 9/11.

Yes, you are right again, I believe, as do many other people that NIST is part of the problem. They have repeatedly been caught in trying to obfuscate and hide relevant information to support their lies. First they try to say, about their "pancake theory" that the fuel fire was so hot that it weakened the truss connections to the vertical central core beams. Then, when they were challenged on that, they changed their tune to a "buckling of the truss beams, pulling the outer walls inward and disconnecting like a zipper. The outer supports were shown not to have pulled inwards as NIST insists.

But one thing that NIST can't explain sufficiently is that if the floors all "pancaked" why did the central core beams not remain vertical and protruding out of the top of the "pancaking" floors? This didn't happen...not even a little bit...the central core beams came down right along with each level just as would have happened during a demolition where explosives were used to cut the supporting vertical beams. The only vertical beams that remained after the collapse in the photos are some less massive outer beams...right at the bottom of the heap. The central core beams were so massive that, if pancaking occurred, the central core beams should have towered all the way up into the sky or have toppled over across the tops of the surrounding buildings...but this did not happen.

NIST's computer simulations omitted information like cross beams that would have made all the difference in the world as to the relevancy (rather irrelevancy) of their simulations. They have continually made glaringly false statements that were picked up on immediately and were refuted by hundreds of engineers, scientists, and other professional people who weren't on the payroll of some government contract. The fact that NIST has acted in such a dishonorable manner, over and over again, shows that they have been trying to cover up the treasonous misdeeds of a corrupt government.

NIST is part of the government that uses lies to hide embarrassing information. They are part of a government, run by criminal elements, that have been working to destroy Social Security and other social programs. What part of HELLO don't you understand!?? Wake up and see the real conspiracy...the one the government (or at least the one's wielding the power in our government) has created to scare the rest of us into submission. They are part of a government that has let the wealthy criminals loot our treasuries while allowing these thieves to take away vital benefits, like health care, and a decent wage. I'm sure you will agree that both parties are part of this nationwide scam. There is nothing honorable about our system of government when it has been hijacked by the criminal elite. And these people will do anything to maintain that status including scaring everyone out of any resolve to do anything, really meaningful, about it.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

This is a quote that Ken provided from Shaym Sunder, the lead NIST investigator for the World Trade Center investigation (yeah, right, what investigation?): I'll use his initials:

Quote SS:
In the case of the World Trade Center towers, the buildings had collapsed. And also there was an immediate need for search and rescue of people who might have been buried under the rubble. So there was also a need to clear the site as quickly as possible. It's very unusual that the evidence is so completely scattered, and that made our investigation a lot more complicated.

This sounds plausible except that in any other case, eg: a crashed airliner, the pieces are all gathered up and reassemble in some hanger. In the case of the WTC wreckage, they didn't even bother to store the parts after they hauled them off. They should have stored them in some field and covered and kept them around for analysis and investigation. But what did they do? They immediately shipped them off to China to be melted down...evidence destroyed. This is NOT the way to carry out an investigation unless you are trying to cover up. The way you conduct a proper investigation is to consider ALL possibilities...even the possibilities that might conflict with the political pressures for a desired outcome that would support the government's conspiracy theory. Nano thermite was not unknown to NIST and they knew full well what it is..they knew full well what the standard procedures were for investigating crime scenes. But NIST did everything they could to avoid the subject of explosives, nano thermite, demolition, or any other thing that would point to an inside job.

Yes, they had to rescue bodies and that could be a valid excuse for why they didn't carry out a lengthy on-site investigation but it doesn't excuse them from not storing the debris long enough to carry out a proper investigation. It is very likely that they wanted to prevent an analysis of the explosion cut marks or chemical analysis of those cuts for the presence of nano thermite residue. The temperature it takes to melt steel, or even weaken it enough to exceed the building designer's specs that were made to handle an airliner crash is way higher than was was possible in those jet fuel fires. So where did all of that molten steel come from? To melt steel..especially a lot of that which filled the basement levels and impeded construction crews from their demolition work...and was still molten in spots weeks later. What high temperature caused that? So, all of those beams would have had tell tale nano thermite the one in a photo at the WTC site. Perhaps, this is what they didn't want experts to analyze...unless they were experts bought and controlled by the government that committed treason against their own people.

This SS guy tries to make the case that the combination of the jet fuel..which he admits largely all burned off within a few minutes..then tries to say that the office material continued the fire and that the fireproofing material was knocked off of the steel beams letting the heat from the fires make the steel "soft as playdough". GET A GRIP PEOPLE! This is abosolutely ridiculous if you know anything at all about the maleability of steel and what temperatures it takes to make steel lose it's strength. Blacksmiths bury the piece they are working on in coke that has been fed a constant stream of oxygen making the temperature almost hot enough, but not quite, to melt least it makes the steel glow reddish yellow. The blacksmith can then hammer it into shape. The airliner fuel and the office fires were so NOT HOT enough to melt or even weaken steel as can be witnessed by you if you watch those videos of the WTC towers. The black smoke was a tell tale sign that those fires were oxygen starved. Black smoke is what you get when you don't have enough oxygen. A fire that is oxygen starved is not a very hot fire at all. I wouldn't stick my hand in it but it doesn't do anything to steel except just make it hot. It won't even glow a dull red color. So what caused all of those pools of molten steel in the basement? Certainly not the airliner jet fuel or office fires. It could only have happened by extremely high temperatures caused by an explosive like nano thermite.

The evidence is in the dust if you really care to read the scientific paper on it. But I doubt many people will. It is much easier to believe in a government conspiracy theory of Arab Muslim terrorist by a revolting little mastermind with a long beard sitting in a cave in Afghanistan. I'm sure if the government had been able to hide the dust evidence...they would have done that as well.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago
Quote Outback:
PD - I'll admit I haven't read much related to the conspiricy theory you speak of. But I have to take Ken Ware's side on this one.

You just admitted to why you really don't have enough knowledge about the subject to even impress anyone that your taking another person's side, who also doesn't know much about the subject, really matters. That's like saying "Jesus said it! I believe it! And that settles it!" It might impress others of the same willingness to put their brains on hold and imprison their ideas and believes in dogmatic clap trap but it ain't science. Flying carpets, anyone? You can imagine yourself to be flying over Baghdad on one and truly have yourself convinced that it is real. Ah, the power of belief...ain't it grand?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

Perhaps a government intruder is more dangerous than someone who breaks into your house. They can do things more subtly and before you know it you, and your family, are way out.

The Nazis were good at that, you know, they would use a few soldiers with machine guns and a few snarling German Shepherds to herd many hundreds of Jews onto the box cars. At any time those hundreds could have overwhelmed the few soldiers and dogs...could have torn them apart. Yes, many Jews would have been killed too..but not all (as they all were eventually). But, they all obediently climbed aboard those box cars with the false belief that they were all just being relocated to work camps that would last only until the end of the war. Yes, some had heard rumors...wild conspiracy theories about death camps. But why listen to conspiracy theories, right? No, listen to the authorities...and everything will turn out all right. All they had to do was follow orders and not make a fuss.

The Nazis even had string quartets made up of musically talented Jewish musicians playing relaxing and emotionally reinforcing chamber music as the box cars arrived. "Men to the left!" "Women and children to the right!" the Gestapo pigs would shout.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 7 weeks ago

And to go further with the "weakening of steel" faulty hypothesis...even if that had happened it only happened on those couple of floors that had the fires..none of the floors below that were even exposed to fire. Those floors would have presented a very strong resistance to the downward collapse and would have been much slower than the 8 to 10 seconds it took for the collapse. In addition, a linear speed of collapse, as happened with all three WTC buildings only happens....only could happen in a demolition. The speed that the buildings collapsed did not slow at all as one might expect from the resistance to free fall that the lower floors would have presented to the falling upper floors. In short, unless you are willing to ignore physics and believe in fairy tales and magic, and obviously our government's conspiracy theory, then the WTC buildings all had to have been demolished in order to display the dynamic characteristics that they did.

And even if those damaged floors, where the planes crashed, were caused to give way due to the heat in the fires, then how do you explain the fact that the North Tower was hit first and exposed to more heat (because all of the fuel remained burning inside the building) and the South Tower which was hit later lost much of it's fuel (which spilled out and burned off as spectacular fireballs away from the building) actually collapsed before the North Tower did.


8:46am North Tower Flight 11 10,000 gallons most fuel burned inside the building--took 1 hour 13 minutes to collapse

9:03am South Tower Flight 175 10,000 gallons large portion of fuel blew out of the building as fireballs.--took 56 minutes to collapse.

9:59am South Tower collapsed
10:28am North Tower collapsed

Did Dumbo, at the plungers, get his buildings mixed up when he set off the charges?

It's funny how some people will say "Oh, how can you expect the government to get things so well planned and orchestrated and keep their participants quiet to have carried out such a feat?" on one hand... and then, on the other, will say "that a bearded camel jockey, sitting in a cave in Afghanistan was the mastermind behind this whole thing". Well, our government made lots of mistakes and they used propaganda, jingoism, and innate fears of Muslims (or anyone else who isn't of the exact same ilk as Bible thumpin' Ahmerikins) to keep people from asking too many questions. Hell, even a lot of atheists have drank the government sponsored cool-aid and have accepted the government dogma that OBL was the mastermind and that our government had nothing to do with it. But there is a growing number of people, who actually take the time to really look into it, who are realizing they've been had by the real conspirators...their own government. After seeing all that our government is trying to do to us now you still doubt that they would do this?

Green_TZM's picture
Green_TZM 10 years 7 weeks ago

Let's Not and say we did. (although I'm sure that was your point.)

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 10 years 6 weeks ago

Do you have the name of single civil engineer that said the beams had to be removed before the buildings could fall? I remember long before 9/11 that the WTC was built very differently from other such buildings. It was described to be like an insect. That is the skeletal structure was on the exterior.

I have a doctorate in engineering, but not civil engineering. Therefore, I have no special insight. However, when I was a graduate instructor, I taught courses for a real civil engineer. The main relevance is that he described how architects keep freaking out over cracks in concrete. He, the civil engineer, had to calm the architects down by demonstrating to them that the cracks were part of design and in no way effected the safety of the structure.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 6 weeks ago
Quote chuckle8:
He, the civil engineer, had to calm the architects down by demonstrating to them that the cracks were part of design and in no way effected the safety of the structure.

The WTC buildings were designed to withstand the impact of airliners...fuel fires and all. The only way they could have come down like they straight down in their footprints... and very close to free-fall if the supporting structures beneath the crash area...all the way to the ground..were timed to sever relatively uniformly on each floor....and progressively timed to do so all the way down. The outer vertical beams, like I said, were not the most important part of the structure except to provide lateral stability. But the many (about 50) massive vertical load-bearing central-core beams (36"X12"X2" thick at the upper levels and 36"X16"X4" thick at the lower levels) needed to be severed for the building to come down like that.

The WTC buildings had massive central core beams that largely took the compressive forces and the outer structure..the outside vertical beams..took the lateral forces as would be caused by the wind (up to 140 mph winds...and crashing airliners traveling at much faster). Damage to the outside beams would do very little to make the building unstable enough to collapse. The many massive vertical central-core beams would have had to be severed to cause any of the upper structure to fall down. And if all of the central core beams were not severed all at the same time...the top portion would have toppled over the side and not come straight down in the building's footprint. The largely aluminum airliner only took out a few of the outer beams. The airliner's momentum had to have been very much impeded by running head on into the floors of concrete and the floor support H beams (they were not flimsy double trusses as NIST tries to say they were which they tried to pass off as a valid theory called the truss theory). The truss theory is a lie.

The floors had poured concrete in them which would have had the effect (depending upon whether or not the airliner smashed into the steel and concrete floor or went in between floors which wasn't very likely). Therefore the concrete floors that were hit on edge against 6" slabs of concrete in each floor 12 feet apart suspended by the beefy steel H beams between the central core and the outer wall had to absorb a lot of the energy of the crashing airliner even before reaching the central load bearing beams.

And, again, if the so-called pancake theory was true then where was the massive central core beams...they should have remained stuck up into the air...or have fallen over striking other surrounding buildings. If that was the case then we all certainly would have seen evidence of this even in the videos and pictures. But somehow, the massive central core beams were all of convenient lengths at the bottom of the pile to not be sticking out of the center of the how can that be..unless the logical reason was that they were all severed by explosives....just like in a demolition.

I think this is the elephant in the room...nobody wants to talk about that...they avoid it like the plague.

It looked just like demolitions because it was demolitions.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 6 weeks ago
Quote Impacts of the magnitude of those that occurred on September 11 were considered by the designers of the twin towers and the towers were designed to survive them.
The possibility of a jet-fuel fires the size of those that occurred on September 11 were considered by the designers of the twin towers and the towers were designed to survive them.
In order to explain why the towers collapsed, where other steel framed buildings would have survived, the WTC conspirators invented the "truss theory".
The "truss theory" is seriously flawed. It cannot explain how the perimeter wall transmits wind loading to the central core.
The "truss theory", if accepted, leads to a 33 percent underestimate of the amount of steel in the towers. That is, the "truss theory" does not account for the whereabouts of 32,000 tons of steel (of 96,000 tons) used in the construction of each of the towers.
The "truss theory" is a lie that has been spun to convince a gullible public, that what appeared to be the controlled demolitions of three of the World Trade Center buildings, were actually natural consequents of the aircraft strikes and not controlled demolitions at all.
There are photos showing large steel girders positioned where the "official" line states that only (double) trusses should be.
In all, one has to conclude that the "truss theory" is false and that those who push it are part of a large conspiracy to deceive the American people.

caroline01's picture
caroline01 10 years 6 weeks ago

I don't agree with everything Thom or anyone else says. But I'm with you, U.S. Citizen on this:

U.S. Citizen wrote: However, we should all step back and think about the thousands of people in other lands who face this type of tragedy almost daily--at the hands of U.S. drones, bombs and military attacks.

The U.S. (or the fiction, NATO) recently killed 11 children in Afghanistan, one as young as 4 months. Where's the grieving, the sorrow for these and for the thousands that have been killed prior to this and will continue to be killed by the U.S.? Sure, we grieve for the Boston victims but does the compassion have to stop at the border?

My profund respect for those who have expressed compassion for those thousands of innocents that the U.S. has killed – and continues to kill - in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other places. My profound disgust for those who express hate for ALL muslims..

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 6 weeks ago

My applause for you caroline01! Well said!

thevoice 10 years 6 weeks ago

What is a bigger conspiracy?

#1 the Neo-cons brought down a building to start a perpetual war and make money?

#2 19 men out of caves in afganistan with a few hours of sesna flying experience, hijacked 4 planes simultaniously with box cutters, and hit 75% of their targets?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 10 years 6 weeks ago

thevoice: and especially the one very tricky maneuver in pulling a tight descending circle just before hitting the Pentagon. Many very skilled airliner pilots with many years experience have said that they doubted even they could do such a thing. There are so many things about the official government conspiracy theory that any one of them, let alone all of them, should be enough to make most thinking people question the governments lies. The weakest link in a chain can result in complete failure...but when you have so many failing links, how can people still believe they can still hold the official conspiracy theory together? Only the most gullible and obstinate, cognitively-dissonant people continue to believe in the official conspiracy theory.

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 10 years 6 weeks ago

Palindromedary - I asked you for the name of one civil engineer who agreed with your theory about WTC. You gave me links and a lot of words but no name. Tight turns and non-civil engineers describing structures is not very convincing.

Is there anyone going with the theory that Dubya was feeding information to OBL? There certainly is a lot of evidence I can concur with that the administration ignored so many warnings.

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