I thought Republicans were all about preserving the Constitution...

Republicans in North Carolina say their state can ignore the U.S. Constitution. That state's House Majority Leader Edgar Starnes, and ten of his Republican colleagues, have sponsored legislation which would establish a state religion, and they say it's not up to the federal government to determine whether or not it's constitutional.

Section one of the so-called Defense of Religion Act reads, “the Constitution of the United States of America does not prohibit states or their subsidiaries from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.” According to The Think Progress Blog, the North Carolina Republicans are stating that the Bill of Rights only places limits on the federal government, and does not apply to the states. However, they fail to explain how their legislation does not violate the federal supremacy clause, or the Fourteenth Amendment.

The supremacy clause states that the U.S. Constitution “shall be the supreme law of the land.” And the Fourteenth Amendment states “no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” So, in addition to being discriminatory to those who don't practice religion – or those how follow a different faith – North Carolina Republicans obviously don't understand the limits of state's rights.

Our fore fathers believed so strongly in the separation of church and state, that it was addressed first in our Bill of Rights. No matter what Republicans and the Religious Right want to believe, we do not live in a theocracy. If North Carolina passes this legislation, it is likely to end up in federal court. The people of North Carolina must stand up for their right of religious freedom, and they must fight to uphold the Constitution.


Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 11 weeks ago

I bet North Carolina would be all up in a tizzy about some Satanic worshiping organization (religion) in their state. They are all for freedom of religion as long as it is the right religion as dictated by their pious and narrow-minded Torquemada overseers. It wouldn't be long before the guys in white sheets burned voodoo dolls in front of atheist's, or Satanic worshiper's, houses.

I have lived in a theocracy, in Saudi Arabia, and you had to watch everything you said. You had to bite your lip when they did things that you would find abhorrent. There's no freedom of speech. And you had to put up with things like the police barging in to your privately held religious service demanding baksheesh (bribes) to continue. (Not that I, personally, had this experience....I'm atheist...but I heard stories) The people of other religions that lived and worked in Saudi Arabia were generally allowed to have a 'closed' service as long as they kept it secluded and quiet (no loud hymns or church bells or loud bellicose pulpit verbosity was allowed). You couldn't proselytize in any way. If you tried to even have a discussion about religion with a Muslim...that was very dangerous territory. I certainly didn't tell anyone I was an atheist. They probably would have cut off my heathen head. Well, at least they would have kicked me out of their country after holding me in a jail cell. I had read about all of the journalists who were held in Saudi jails for reporting on the "wrong" things. They are not very amenable to criticism. Women's hair couldn't be too long or they would have the matawas come by and shave heads. Women's dresses couldn't be above the knees or the matawas would swat the bare legs with switches. And they were especially rabid during the month of Ramadan. But dirty old men were able to get away with humping women as they boarded family buses. And the husbands just couldn't do anything about it without risk of being in a great deal of trouble. The women could swat them off, though, but the men could take no action.

I'm sure the Republicans in North Carolina would not hesitate to make North Carolina like Saudi Arabia...except not Muslim but Deep Southern Baptist.

Green_TZM's picture
Green_TZM 11 years 11 weeks ago

revised 3/11/13

https:///www.facebook.com/groups/152631684794770 We have written our voting rules, care to comment?

Whereas we the people are created equal, and

whereas we the people are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and

whereas we the people instituted a government to secure these rights, and

whereas we the people lay the foundation on such principles, and organize its power in such form, as to us shall seem most likely to effect the above objective, do require the following Bill of Rights for Voting Equality.


Each citizen of the United States at or exceeding the age of majority has the right to vote in any public election in the jurisdiction where he or she resides. That right shall not be denied or abridged by the United States, any State, agreement, person, or entity. After incarceration all rights shall resume.


a) All citizens of the United States, residing in all states, shall have equal access, (the same requirements), to creating a political party and achieving a ballot line.

b) All candidates and parties shall have equal time constraints to qualify for ballot access.

c) All proofs will be received by a multi-partisan regulatory board, such as the Board of Elections.


The District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall elect Senators and Representatives in the Congress in such number and such manner as it would be entitled if it were a State.


All citizens must be able to verify that the vote has been counted accurately. All ballots must be counted by hand. All counting must be supervised by multi-partisan personnel and recorded.


a) The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every Thirty Thousand.

b) Each state shall divide its population by 30,000 to determine its number of representatives.

c) Each Representative shall have the voting power equal to the number of citizens that voted for them.


a) All citizens that desire to be candidates, shall register at their local Board of Elections.

b) The Board of Elections shall divide equally, the campaign tools for election purposes. All tools must be properly labeled as citizen provided.

c) Elections shall be publicly funded. No private money may be used for a public office, or seat in the government. The citizen must have full confidence that no bribery or appearance of bribery is taking place.


All citizens shall have equal early voting hours in which to cast their vote. sufficient voting places, materials, and personnel shall be provided to reduce the voting time to within an hour.


The Presidential/Vice-Presidential election shall be counted by (score or approval) counting.

Green_TZM's picture
Green_TZM 11 years 11 weeks ago

Every 14th of the month, we gather together at a predetermined location. We give a short speech on as many issues as possible. Then we engage the public and hand out information. The goal is to educate people on the progressive values, and the reasons why we believe the things we do. And hopefully show the reasons why that person should agree with us. A success would be such growth that by next summer people would be coming out every 14th at MANY locations around the country.

One thing I ask you all to do. Copy/Paste this message everywhere you post. http://www.causes.com/actions/1739911-14th-amendment-equality-pledges

If you listen to progressive radio, you know that our presence is needed in the streets. Let's work together and have activity everywhere there was an occupy group. We MUST educate the low information voter before 2014!

PhilipHenderson's picture
PhilipHenderson 11 years 11 weeks ago

Religious laws governing the State of North Carolina. What is the difference between that idea and what is happening in the Sovereign state of Iran. These Republicans have gone off the reservation completely. Do they really want to live in a nation that is governed by someone's religious beliefs?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 11 weeks ago

It is really in the best interests of all (no matter what religion or non-religion one subscribes to), even if you happen to be a member of the predominant one, to prevent a government from dictating a "state sanctioned" religion. The state should be neutral and not favor religion or even one religion over another.. or over non-religion.

Even if you happen to be a Southern Baptist in N.C. (near Raleigh, perhaps) you should be shaking in your shoes over the terribly misguided idea of state sanctioned religions. Those who fight for the freedom of all (no matter what their beliefs are) will have no worries in the future about being able to believe as they desire. But once you start singling out a predominant one to rule over the rest you are putting nails in your own belief's coffin. One day, the tide will turn against you...as it did in Russia during, and after, the Tsars when the State sanctioned religion ... communism ruled. Priests were executed and people's bibles were ripped away from them and religious people were put in gulags and insane asylums.

mathboy's picture
mathboy 11 years 11 weeks ago

Technically, the freedom of religion was addressed 3rd in the Bill of Rights. It was preceded by the article on how many representatives there should be and the article that became the 27th Amendment, concerning pay increases for congressmen.

mathboy's picture
mathboy 11 years 11 weeks ago

So North Carolina Republicans just effectively declared that states should be able to control guns as much as they want.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 11 years 11 weeks ago

What's comes after this legislation, condemnation of heliocentric doctrine as heretical?

Wow, Pope Edgar and his ten republican inquisitors are more wigged- out than Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann. Maybe they figure religion as a state establishment will provide them with a tool to more easily convince voters to vote republican, against their own best interests. You'll go to hell if you vote for those heathen Democrats!

On the serious side, I read a fair amount of world history and one thing that has always stood out is the violent role religion has played throughout much of recorded time. Pick a book on The Crusades, Papal history, The Inquisitions, history of confict in the Middle East, you name it, it's all pretty ugly. I mention this because our founders were well aware of the problems associated with state declared religious doctrine. Thus their emphasis on separation of church and state and religious freedom in our Constitution.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 11 years 11 weeks ago

Outback, I just read your reply from Tuesday. In answer to your assumption that I'm in denial about the very real possibility of needing a gun to protect myself during a house intrusion.....I in fact have an early warning system that I don't care to go into detail about. The thing about shooting someone is that the someone, "intruder," in my area anyway, would most likely be a strung out teenager on meth, bath salts, crack or something. I have other ways of dealing with this should it happen and no one dies. I don't want to be the person that shot a community member's troubled kid. I'd have to move if this happened and that's not an option.

HalFonts's picture
HalFonts 11 years 11 weeks ago

Just goes to show that extremist religious fundamentalism in any form is possible everywhere. The very idea of some arrogant self-rightous dilusional dufus insisting that others subscribe to his or her patheticly ignorant beliefs, or face corporal- or capital-punishment -- is the most abhorant situation I can imagine in civil society. Relatively pacifist, this issue could quickly get me to grab a weapon.

But if raised in an environment saturated with scoundrels claiming access to some god's holey-word, why shouldn't such truths be the foundation for civil society? The premis becomes self-justifying, no matter the source.

Which explains why "religious-issues" are most likely used to divide-and-conquor people; and to initiate and maintain ongoing wars of economic conquest. Makes you wonder how primitive we really still are on this planet.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 11 weeks ago

I am firmly against this legislation. I am a faithful believer; and I'd pit my faith against any man on the planet, including the Pope(s).

One must distinguish between Religion and Faith. Religion is basically a social institution that satisfies the human psychological need to explain the unexplainable. Humans are the only species on the planet that are aware that they will die. The need for reassurance of the continuation of conscious after death is the prime reason religious institutions exist in all societies.

Faith is the belief of the individual. As a person who claims a unique relationship with The Spirit I can declare that God wants us to come to him of our own free will. Anything else is false faith. I can assure you that the motive behind this religious legislation is conjured up by a church composed of people with charlatan inspired false faith. These members only gain 'spiritual' award when seen of many of their conjugation. They seek human approval and desire to inflict their 'culture' on others. Their faith is demonic in origin and dangerous to the American public at large.

I have found that often in our society, the greatest potential for pure faith exists among confirmed atheists. Ironically, this group has completely cast out any hope for the hypocritical religious institutions. In fact, this is the greatest first step anyone of faith needs to take before they can discover God. Ask yourself how many atheists you know who live by the law of God and justify themselves by saying, "Oh, well that's just common decency." Or, "That's the way I want to be treated." Or, "Well, that's just common sense." Yet, does not an omnipotent God also adhere to the laws of common sense?

As Jefferson and Madison concluded, any mixture of Church and State would be catastrophic to both Church and State. They were correct. It is imperative that in order to save the Church and the State that we must separate them. They can thrive and reach their separate goals best alone.

Faith is an issue that can only be addressed by the individual and God. If the State intervenes in anyway it will further discourage divine faith in God as well as sovereignty of the State. This president must be nipped in the bud before these power mad religious zealots get a firm foothold in public legislation. Once that occurs the total destruction of our Democracy will not be far away.

The time has come for the true Faithful and the true Atheist to put aside their petty differences and join forces to stop this tragedy in its tracks.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 11 weeks ago

Why do people feel they have to have a religion? Is it because they were brought up a certain way and have inherited their religion or do believers feel a need as they grow older to believe they will live forever in a spiritual kingdom? Is it a primal need or desire to believe you will never die and will not return to star dust for infinity and the fear of non-existence is too much for the human brain to except, since we are the only mammal or living organism that can foresee ones end. Do you need a blueprint to follow or guide you in life in order to be productive and orderly? Do you think mankind is inherently "evil" and you need some supreme being to keep you in line through the threat of going to hell or just returning to the start dust you evolved from if you fail to follow the orders handed down thousands of years ago? Have you had some type of spiritual experience in your mind and now have seen the light of following rules written by people decades or longer after they thought they had found the true meaning of god?

Why all this uproar over religion and whether a state should decide on a religion? Is it not the relationship between your "God" and yourself which is the true meaning of your religion? So why are you all so angry over a bunch of yahoo's who have the backing of their backward voting population to say what they think their state religion should be? Do you really care what these characters say and are you really afraid this will set a precedence in this country?

Religion of any and all types have been the basis of more wars and deaths of innocence in this world than any other reason throughout time, so why are you all up in arms over something so destructive as religion. Religion is the opiate of the people and also the reason so much hate abounds around us. From the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition to the Radical Muslims like the Taliban and El Qaeda in the scope of modern history. To the mass wars and killings that took place many thousands of years ago, because one group worshipped a different god then the other. We have all read the historical accounts of all the wars and mass killings because of a difference of religious ideals and here we see it again, stirring up more hate, anger and distrust over a need to establish the true religion. Is it fear that you might be wrong and your neighbor next door or in the next country might somehow have a belief that threatens your own small minded belief system.

Too hell with all religions and the zealots who have to hold onto the brain-washed idea that they worship the only true religion and "God". As you might have guessed I believe anyone who holds onto the idea that there is some supreme being out there who really gives a damn about mankind is a fool in all ways. Go to war and tell me where you see your god and his goodness and I say you will find none. No, it has nothing to do with war; I was just using that as an example. Go to down town Los Angeles where you will see (30,000) poor, hungry and medical needy adults and children and I see no god protecting these innocence (children) living in cars and boxes. You can all keep your little narrow minded conceptions of a deity that created man and all of his woes. We evolved, we were not created this way and to make so much noise and hatred over religion, just points out why I think you are all foolish if you argue over a religion and whether a state should decide what to call their state's religion. Much to do about nothing in the real world, except for those who are so weak minded they need some deity to call upon so they will live beyond physical life and the end which will call upon us all at some time in our existence here on planet Earth. Hate, war, intolerance and the downfall of man can all be linked to some religion or another. No thank you, when you die you die, so make the most of life while your here and stop the nonsense of arguing over a state and its people having the right or not the right to say what their state religion should be called. After all, you’re going to believe whatever you choose to and it will not be the state who decides that in the end, unless you allow them to influence you and then you deserve what you will get. Seperation of state and religion should be the last thing to worry about in todays America. Get over this nonsensical argument over religion; you have better things to worry about, like what you will have for breakfast tomorrow! Leave religion in your bedroom like your sex life and we will all get along much better with less bullshit to argue about....Ken Ware. - My choice of religion is called life, without the added bull of religion. Please do yourself a favor and do not bother to comment on my comments, you will just get angry and you will try to prove your point and I could not careless what you believe. Ask DeAnnMarc or Palindromedary how much I care about someone else's comments and then you will not waste your time responding about your religious beliefs or the lack of in my case! I just read all the B.S. on this subject and had to add my two cents before I have dinner.

DeAnnMarc - Get yourself a gun and practice your shooting, because your words have less impact on the President or the Wealthy who own Washington and your just voicing hot air that will go no further than this little read blog of Thom's (maybe 30 comments a day!). Come up with some real plan to change this President and his bill of Austerity called Sequestration on the poor or join a group that will do something that will have a physical change on this society. I read what the few who comment on this blog had to say about weapons and it was all a list of bullshit, biases and hot air. Pacifists have done nothing to change anything in this country, it is boots on the ground in the street that makes a difference. And, you seem young enough to get involved if you have the brass to actually change this society, as you keep exclaiming you want to. And as far as just meeting once a month to make your fellow Americans feel better and complain about the government is just about as worthless as being a pacifist in my opinion. You know what I feel needs to be done, lets see what happens in the coming years and who is doing what is needed for change. Pacifist politics is what has gotten us all in the situation we now face as a nation. Maybe your god will reach down and change the world for you and your type of politics. Violence is the only thing that anyone in power or out of power understands and fears. The type and method of delivery is up to the people to decide, anything less is fruitless in the end...

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 11 weeks ago

Faith in God is an opiate to be used when needed, whatever religion or god you believe in my friend.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 11 weeks ago

Ken Ware ~ I don't know why people feel the need to have a religion other than my socio/psychological explanation. People tend to have an inherant psychological need for confirmation. Some, like myself, need confirmation from a God that is unseen; others, like many members of religious institutions, need public confirmation from other people. In my opinion, people who have a need for religion, need confirmation from other people. Fortunately, my Faith, frees me of this need.

As far as getting a gun and practicing my shooting is concerned... I had a bee bee gun when I was a child. I became quite a proficient shot at a very young age. Once I decided to use my skills on a living target--a Robin Redbreast in a tree in our yard. I hit the bird with the first shot under its left wing. The bird spiraled to the ground 10ft in front of me. An overwhelming sensation of remorse consumed me. I cradled the bird in my arms--despite being violently bitten--and brought it into the house. I spent several weeks desperately trying to heal the wound on the bird--feeding it with an eye dropper with a water and sugar solution with the help of my father. My father, a WWII War veteran stated that he was greatly relieved that I felt as bad as I did. I carry the scar and overwhelming remorse for that act to this day. I will carry that grief to my grave. There are no actions I regret more in my life than that.

No, my friend! There is no need for me to seek arms of any kind. I assure you that I am not capable of shooting another bird, or certainly any human being. Right now I am in tears retelling this story. I'd prefer to be shot myself.

With my faith I believe that if I ask God for the power to move a mountain, you can kiss that mountain goodbye. Be I right or be I wrong, I have no fear that if I err, I err on the side of righteousness. If I fall, I fall in righteousness. I accept my fate--be it in eternal life with God, or eternal oblivion--at least it will be free of the horrors you've described seeing in downtown Los Angeles. I will carry my Faith to my grave with me as well! I will also never regret this decision!

May God bless us all, Brother! Enjoy your meal! Pleasant dreams!

BMetcalfe's picture
BMetcalfe 11 years 11 weeks ago

My friend and her husband moved to N.C, two years ago when they retired from the Teevision Industry in SoCal. Her son - a grown man now who is a straight, good-looking previous model for men's clothing, and is a straight A student in college there. Because he used to live and work in Hollywood, CA, he is being discriminated against because of his photogenic looks, his Straight-A determination to get a degree in something that's more likely to lead to a good job in something more than his good looks gave him here (which, by the way, was lucrative). He is being bullied, even at his older age - students are leaving him gay slurs on his locker, cornering him in college bathrooms and insulting him - all because he used to make a lot of money at something most of these ignorantly-raised bigots are inwardly jealous of, and seem to want to ruin his reputation and wish to punish him for having once lived a lifestyle in Hollywood - one that most of those Evangelical Yahoos can only dream of...

North Caroline is filled with Evangelicals who take great pride in being ignorant of common sense and the ability to respect the difference of those who come from a more sophisticated background. This young man has fallen in love with a girl there, and now they are calling her "Queer-lover" and lots of other names I cannot repeat here. It makes perfect sense that N.C. has no morals when it comes to competition with someone who has seen more of life than any of them willl ever know - and survive without becoming less, rather than more than any of the rest of them.

THIS is what these southern, religious states - who's "moral" conduct is far more reprehensible and damaging to themselves, and to those who come from a different culture - offer to the rest of us who walk through fire to become what we desire to be - accepted, and to fall in love without being branded with lies and abused for having been lucky in life in a different culture from the West Coast.

The Federal Courts need to reign in these rogue, 18th Century thinking idiots, and drag them kicking & screaming into the 21st Century where the real world is not something you reject... you learn to conquer the bad parts of it and become REAL, strong people, instead of being enslaved to an antiquated religion which will hurt everyone more than it helps them adjust.

The Constitution gives us freedom from and to religion - but it does NOT permit them the right to badger, berate, accuse and disrespect those who can teach them about the real world their churches fear the most.

Education is empowerment, and when that happens, it endangers control of the congregations. CONTROL is the real reason these N.C. bigots pass it on from one generation to another. It needs to stop. The South can only rise again if it;s done with education - not rhetorc that divides rather than unite this republic into a great union which benefits us all.

amoobrasil's picture
amoobrasil 11 years 11 weeks ago

Republicans see their strategy as they have seen it since the Southern Strategy was launched: (1) support only policies that benefit the wealthiest sponsors of the Party--the rich must make the rules; (2) avail itself of white prejudices, resentments, and hate by pandering to them, on the assumption (proven valid) that such pandering will appeal so much to the need for validation of these emotions that whites will overlook the destructive, anti-democratic policy agenda.

Lately, whites (including religious fanatics) have been demanding more than lip service; hence, the GOP has redoubled its efforts fo produce results: make abortion as difficult as possible; restrict voting as much as possible to the angry white male; demonize blacks and (undocumented) immigrants; and pander to homophobia.

As (was it Jim Lindsey?) a Southern politician once observed, the value strategy is beginning to peter out: the GOP is running out of angry, white males.

amoobrasil's picture
amoobrasil 11 years 11 weeks ago

It helps to understand that whites who feel entitled to maintain (rescue?) the dominance of the white social paradigm or who are convinced that anyone who challenges their beliefs, prejudices, or resentments is an Enemy of the State. Such people have no interest in democracy or in embracing the diversity implied by democracy; they simply want to attain and keep privilege.

MMmmNACHOS's picture
MMmmNACHOS 11 years 11 weeks ago

According to KEN WARE, VIOLENCE IS THE ANSWER to our problems.
Yes KEN WARE lets all take up weapons and storm the Corporate Government. You lead the way since you are so gung-ho and are a junky for killing. Ya gota taste for blood shed 45 years ago, and you need a fix...Didn't kill enough people in Viet Nam!?!?! Then again you were a pilot that just dropped bombs from waaaaaaay up in the sky. You didn't get to personally see people's body parts strewn about. You didn't get to hear the screams from children as their skin melted off them, or a parent holding their dead baby.
How's your grandson??? Are you ready and willing to sacrafice him? I'll bet you'll be so proud when he decides to be another pawn in the war machine, that's if he doesn't get blown away first in your war.
'Nother soldier, 'Nother Sucker.

As for pacifist and Non Violent Action...You Ken Ware are ignorant.

PLSzymeczek's picture
PLSzymeczek 11 years 11 weeks ago

This is an excellent idea! Does it abolish the Electoral College and institute the National Popular Vote as the basis for Presidential/Vicepresidential election?

Stuart Brann's picture
Stuart Brann 11 years 11 weeks ago

The monotheistic neurosis takes many forms, and has a strong appeal to the conservative mind, which requires a constant level of fear to maintain the survival of its belief system. As the level of fairness increases in a society, so does the level of violent thought -- and probably, action -- among the ever decreasing number of these extremists. And, the targets of attack become ever more random. Ultimately, this works against their favor.

Forget pointing out the sections of our Constitution that forbid the establishment of a state religion at any level of government: they won't listen because they are sure it doesn't apply to them. Let's just keep moving forward toward equal rights for all. People are leaving the established churches in droves and are, generally, all the better for it.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 11 weeks ago

One doesn't have to be an active participant in a game of chess to see where the game is headed and what needs to be done. I'd say if anyone was warranted and justified in their fight for freedom, it is the masses of downtrodden people to attain that right here at home where we are all being, and have been for more than 30 years, attacked by the wealthy elite who wants to abolish social programs. We have all seen, over and over again, how the existing corrupt system has made promises just to stab us all in the backs. If our forefathers were all talking the way some people talk now they never would have fought the British. They'd still be bickering and arguing and calling people names. Our forefathers were outgunned by a highly trained and regimented force that lost against colonists who fought bravely and used tactics that would be considered terrorism by some. Hit and run guerrilla tactics, much like what Al Qaida has done in the Middle East is what helped beat the British. Again, you can chide and ridicule those who know where our country is headed and know that nothing else will really work...the forces against us has rigged the game so tightly that there really is nothing else that will work. When animals or even people are backed into a corner and it is apparent that their foe is about to murder them...they have no other choice but to fight. And we are all being backing into a corner and we will, many of us, be murdered by them. It's all a matter of time... very little time. Those people who are smart enough to realize that that is where we are all right now will take cheap shots from the trepidatious many who continue to be fooled into believing that all they have to do is write letters, emails, phone their politicians. But it is just not going to happen. History proves that unless the people really push back and scare the ruling elite into making some real changes... real changes will never happen.

Just wait till they start to Cyprus-ize Canadian and American banks....it will no longer be bank bailouts ... it will be bank robberies from within...but of course, the very wealthy and "connected" ones will get tip-offs and will beat you all to it...just like in Cyprus.

Imagine someone placing an order at MacDonalds, paying the money to the cashier, and when the order arrives the franchise owner comes out and instead of saying "would you like to Super-size that?". He grabs your burger and fries, gobbles down half of it and said "I'm sorry...but I was hungry...I had to Cyprus-ize your burger and fries. Run along now sucker!"

Mark Saulys's picture
Mark Saulys 11 years 10 weeks ago

Why didn't we let them go when they wanted to seccede? They're not American, don't want to be and never will..

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