The impending "Carbon Bubble" in the stock market.

As if the economic risks of austerity, derivatives trading, and an under-regulated banking industry weren't enough... A new report from Stern and the think-tank Carbon Tracker warns of an over-inflated “carbon bubble” in the stock market. The Guardian explains that the fossil fuel investment bubble is a result of oil, coal, and gas reserves being over-valued by the market, and the impending value correction poses a huge risk to the global financial system.

According to the report, to keep global temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius, about 60% of the world's fossil fuel reserves must remain unburned. As total reserves are listed as assets in the world markets, the fact that more than half of the financial gain will never be realized means that 60% of those reserves are worthless. And, allowing these fuels to be burned just for the economic gains is simply out of the question.

So, financial analysts and brokers must account for climate change policy now, and begin slowly adjusting the value of fuel reserves. If they act smart, they just may be able to save the plant, and prevent an economic collapse. Let's hope they do.


Global's picture
Global 11 years 8 weeks ago

This is off the subject but just to make a point to all the gun restriction lefties, -- if you are living in Cambridge Mass. Today with a psycho on the loose do you want a gun with 10 round clip or a 30 round clip? And it is not a deer stalking the neighborhood.

johnbest's picture
johnbest 11 years 8 weeks ago

I, for one, refuse to be afraid. This is no way to live one's life. That's why I will never own a gun. If I die then so be it.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

With all do respect mr and mrs hartmann this just might be the stupidest thing you have ever said. We have to reduce our energy consumption by 60% to stop the world from heating up 2 degrees. WHAT, without that energy consumption our economy would come to a complete stand still. There would be know economic gains. who would pay for the 47%. Ken Ware was right we need some better topics. Hundreds of billions spent on climate change and the carbon levels havn't dropped at all. ZERO. When are we going to learn.

Could you please stop calling it "climate change" when you called it "global warming" my heat bill was way lower and my back didn't hurt from shovling so much snow. The last two winters have been way to cold.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Johnbest ~ Finally a kindred heart. My sediments exactly. Personally I believed initially that this was a false flag operation. However, since no one, or group, has claimed credit I must admit that the signature on this crime is one of a lone nut. It just goes to show how little the restriction of guns will go to solve the problem of evil minded mentally disturbed individuals from roaming around untreated in society, and the consequences of that policy.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

The last suspect is captured! The threat is over? The last I heard everyone is innocent till proven guilty. We are not safe until the trial is over. Shame on Major Menimo for implying that the captured suspect is guilty. What has our Democracy become?

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Ok! Just saw the interview of the suspect's Aunt. I agree 100% with her request, "Show me the evidence!" While you're at it you can show me the evidence as well. I don't buy it. Two RUSSIAN teen immigrants. No way do I buy that. These people come here ready to kiss the ground. Home grown American citizen terrorists is what I expected. Loan nut Arabs... maybe. But Russian immigrants? Give me a brake! This is reminiscent of the Lee Harvey Oswald fiasco! "I'm just a Patsy" still rings in my ears.

If this is the best the Government can do I guess I was right in the first place...THIS IS A FALSE FLAG OF THE FIRST CLASS!!

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

DAnneMarc that suspect shot at police. He is guilty of that.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Kend wrote ~ "DAnneMarc that suspect shot at police. He is guilty of that. "

Very well, Kend. Assuming that there is evidence to support this claim. "Show me the evidence!" What you are saying at this point is merely speculation and allegation. Until the conclusion of the trial, this SUSPECT is INNOCENT! Please don't forget this basic tenant of American Law!!!

Green_TZM's picture
Green_TZM 11 years 8 weeks ago



Our country cannot truly move forward until the roots of inequality are pulled up, and the seeds of a new, healthier economy are planted. Thus, the Green New Deal begins with an Economic Bill of Rights that ensures all citizens:

1. The right to employment through a Full Employment Program that will create 25 million jobs by implementing a nationally funded, but locally controlled direct employment initiative replacing unemployment offices with local employment offices offering public sector jobs which are "stored" in job banks in order to take up any slack in private sector employment.

  • Local communities will use a process of broad stakeholder input and democratic decisionmaking to fairly implement these programs.
  • Pay-to-play prohibitions will ensure that campaign contributions or lobbying favors do not impact decision-making.
  • We will end unemployment in America once and for all by guaranteeing a job at a living wage for every American willing and able to work.

2. Worker's rights including the right to a living wage, to a safe workplace, to fair trade, and to organize a union at work without fear of firing or reprisal.

3. The right to quality health care which will be achieved through a single-payer Medicare-for-All program.

4. The right to a tuition-free, quality, federally funded, local controlled public education system from pre-school through college. We will also forgive student loan debt from the current era of unaffordable college education.

5. The right to decent affordable housing, including an immediate halt to all foreclosures and evictions. We will:

  • create a federal bank with local branches to take over homes with distressed mortgages and either restructure the mortgages to affordable levels, or if the occupants cannot afford a mortgage, rent homes to the occupants;
  • expand rental and home ownership assistance;
  • create ample public housing; and,
  • offer capital grants to non-profit developers of affordable housing until all people can obtain decent housing at no more than 25% of their income.

6. The right to accessible and affordable utilities – heat, electricity, phone, internet, and public transportation – through democratically run, publicly owned utilities that operate at cost, not for profit.

7. The right to fair taxation that's distributed in proportion to ability to pay. In addition, corporate tax subsidies will be made transparent by detailing them in public budgets where they can be scrutinized, not hidden as tax breaks.


The second priority of the Green New Deal is a Green Transition Program that will convert the old, gray economy into a new, sustainable economy that is environmentally sound, economically viable and socially responsible. We will:

1. Invest in green business by providing grants and low-interest loans to grow green businesses and cooperatives, with an emphasis on small, locally-based companies that keep the wealth created by local labor circulating in the community rather than being drained off to enrich absentee investors.

2. Prioritize green research by redirecting research funds from fossil fuels and other dead-end industries toward research in wind, solar and geothermal. We will invest in research in sustainable, nontoxic materials, closed-loop cycles that eliminate waste and pollution, as well as organic agriculture, permaculture, and sustainable forestry.

3. Provide green jobs by enacting the Full Employment Program which will directly provide 16 million jobs in sustainable energy and energy efficiency retrofitting, mass transit and "complete streets" that promote safe bike and pedestrian traffic, regional food systems based on sustainable organic agriculture, and clean manufacturing.


The takeover of our economy by big banks and well-connected financiers has destabilized both our democracy and our economy. It's time to take Wall Street out of the driver's seat and to free the truly productive segments of working America to make this economy work for all of us. Real Financial Reform will:

1. Relieve the debt overhang holding back the economy by reducing homeowner and student debt burdens.

2. Democratize monetary policy to bring about public control of the money supply and credit creation. This means we'll nationalize the private bank-dominated Federal Reserve Banks and place them under a Monetary Authority within the Treasury Department.

3. Break up the oversized banks that are "too big to fail."

4. End taxpayer-funded bailouts for banks, insurers, and other financial companies. We'll use the FDIC resolution process for failed banks to reopen them as public banks where possible after failed loans and underlying assets are auctioned off.

5. Regulate all financial derivatives and require them to be traded on open exchanges.

6. Restore the Glass-Steagall separation of depository commercial banks from speculative investment banks.

7. Establish a 90% tax on bonuses for bailed out bankers.

8. Support the formation of federal, state, and municipal public-owned banks that function as non-profit utilities.

Under the Green New Deal we will start building a financial system that is open, honest, stable, and serves the real economy rather than the phony economy of high finance.


We won't get these vital reforms without a fourth and final set of reforms to give us a real, functioning democracy. Just as we are replacing the old economy with a new one, we need a new politics to restore the promise of American democracy. The New Green Deal will:

1. Revoke corporate personhood by amending our Constitution to make clear that corporations are not persons and money is not speech. Those rights belong to living, breathing human beings - not to business entities controlled by the wealthy.

2. Protect our right to vote by supporting Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr.'s proposed "Right to Vote Amendment," to clarify to the Supreme Court that yes, we do have a constitutional right to vote.

3. Enact the Voter Bill of Rights that will:

  • guarantee us a voter-marked paper ballot for all voting;
  • require that all votes are counted before election results are released;
  • replace partisan oversight of elections with non-partisan election commissions;
  • celebrate our democratic aspirations by making Election Day a national holiday;
  • bring simplified, safe same-day voter registration to the nation so that no qualified voter is barred from the polls;
  • do away with so-called "winner take all" elections in which the "winner" does not have the support of most of the voters, and replace that system with instant runoff voting and proportional representation, systems most advanced countries now use to good effect;
  • replace big money control of election campaigns with full public financing and free and equal access to the airwaves;
  • guarantee equal access to the ballot and to the debates to all qualified candidates;
  • abolish the Electoral College and implement direct election of the President;
  • restore the vote to ex-offenders who've paid their debt to society; and,
  • enact Statehood for the District of Columbia so that those Americans have representation in Congress and full rights to self rule like the rest of us.

4. Protect local democracy and democratic rights by commissioning a thorough review of federal preemption law and its impact on the practice of local democracy in the United States. This review will put at its center the "democracy question" – that is, what level of government is most open to democratic participation and most suited to protecting democratic rights.

5. Create a Corporation for Economic Democracy, a new federal corporation (like the Corporation for Public Broadcasting) to provide publicity, training, education, and direct financing for cooperative development and for democratic reforms to make government agencies, private associations, and business enterprises more participatory.

6. Strengthen media democracy by expanding federal support for locally-owned broadcast media and local print media.

7. Protect our personal liberty and freedoms by:

  • repealing the Patriot Act and those parts of the National Defense Authorization Act that violate our civil liberties;
  • prohibiting the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI from conspiring with local police forces to suppress our freedoms of assembly and of speech; and,
  • ending the war on immigrants – including the cruel, so-called "secure communities" program.

8. Rein in the military-industrial complex by

  • reducing military spending by 50% and closing U.S. military bases around the world;
  • restoring the National Guard as the centerpiece of our system of national defense; and,
  • creating a new round of nuclear disarmament initiatives.

Let us not rest until we have pulled our nation back from the brink, and until we have secured the peaceful, just, green future we all deserve.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Ok fair enough. I heard the police transcripts that said "shots where fired". But your right spend 5 million dollars on a trial, then put him in jail for the rest of his life at $60,000 a year. It's our way. Although I am a Canada this one hit home. My daughter in law is from Mass. And her family knows the policemen that was killed. 26 years old, over what? I am so tired of all the sympathy for these nut cases. I think it's time to lock down our borders and start looking after our shelves.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Wake up green Tzm Your dreaming. You could have saved a lot of time by saying we need to be socialist.

all of things on the "green transition" section have already been done. its just that you don't see any of them because they all failed and went bankrupt.

It does look great on paper but who is going to pay for it.

akunard's picture
akunard 11 years 8 weeks ago

Back on topic.

China is the biggest polluter on the planet, by far. Not much we can do about that. If you push me I might explain why Al G. wants a carbon tax and how his investment in the carbon exchange (scam) taints his comments.

Now to the so called think-tank. The market DOES NOT SET THE PRICE OF OIL!!!!!!!!!!

OPEC does. So you think they are about to stick a pin in their bubble?

Lastly a crash in the price of gasoline would be a bad thing and destroy the economy?

Thom this is the dumbest pile of crap you have ever posted.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Akunard finally some who agrees with me here. Thanks.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Kend ~ With all due respect you are responding with emotion and not reason. There is nothing wrong with venting frustrations on perpetrators of heinous deeds; but, first we must establish calmly beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect committed those deeds. As far as I am concerned a fuzzy video placing the man in the vicinity of the blast with a backpack means nothing. All it shows is someone in the wrong place at the wrong time--a characteristic shared by the victims. All it proves is that he was there and survived. Show me the proof that he did it. Being a Muslim means nothing. Most Muslim bombers blow themselves up too. If he's a Muslim terrorist, which the media appears to be painting him as, he's not a very good one.

Remember, due process is critical in our justice system. It protects criminals as well as the innocent from the full fury of the power of justice. It is a process that we must respect in order to insure that justice is served and to protect the civil rights of everyone.

I too have relatives living in Massachusetts. It is a shame that the citizens of Boston are dancing in the streets already as though these suspects are guilty without evidence, motive or a trial. Sad, indeed!

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

DAnne you are right I will wait for the due process with these guys. But I am tired of all the other brown muslim guys who where convicted or not caught yet of the horrible acts all over the world. it get serious when arms and legs are flying by. We had better wake up. Let me make it clear not all Muslims are bad I know that I just hate the ones that blow shit up. Since we can't tell the difference maybe we should stop all brown Muslims from coming into our countries until it stops. Isn't it our governments number one job to keep us safe? When you go moose hunting you don't look in the sky for a duck.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Kend ~ Seriously! Stop all Muslims from coming into our county?

About 23.4% of the world population, or 1.6 Billion people in the world are Muslims. Of this group there are at least several hundred or at most a couple thousand dangerous Muslims who are terrorist minded. So if we take a conservative estimate of say 10 thousand terrorists Muslims in the world we factor in a percentage of 0.000625% of the world population of Muslims are terrorists. This is far less than 1%. You are suggesting we treat 100% of Muslims like they are guilty of the deeds of 0.000625% of the whole population?. Do you see mathematically how increadibly wrong, racist, and unfair that would be to such a large number of the world population who mean you and I no harm?

Right now we have a big problem with a small fraction of the Muslim community. If we initiate policies that offend the entire Muslim world we turn a big problem into an overwhelming problem. That course of action brings us as a people no closer to a solution to our problem; but worsens it dramatically.

The correct course of action is to welcome Muslims into our culture with love and respect. Only by demonstrating to the world that we are Muslim friendly can we reduce that small fraction of the Muslim radical population to 0.0%. That should be our long term goal; not, ostracising and offending the entire Muslim world. I'm sure that as a business owner you are aware of this. This strategy is right out of public relations 101. You never want to offend or upset your client base. You lose money that way. Bad business! Bad politics. They are not that unlike each other.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Ya it is a little over the top but I am getting sick and tired of innocent people's body parts flying around. I think you are under estimating how many terrorists there is in the world that want to kill Americans. They are not on this side of the pond but they are out there. Why with one in five out of work do we let any one immigrate in?

Outback 11 years 8 weeks ago

DAnneMarc - You triggered one of my pet grammatical peeves when you said "All it shows is someone in the wrong place at the wrong time". No, that person (or people) were in the "wrong place at the RIGHT time", or in the "right place at the WRONG time", or in the right place at the right time (if you're looking for a positive spin on a negative outcome) but never "in the wrong place in the wrong time", else, they would have skated past the incident unscathed. It's a nit, I know ;-) But then, it depends on how you define your terms, I guess. 1's and 0's....

I like your take on the bad rap applied to Muslims expressed to Kend in a later post....

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 8 weeks ago

The Carbon Bubble: Wall Street is concerned with the profits it will make today. To think it will devaluate the carbon stocks and assist in preventing what Hartmann states as the Carbon Bubble is only wishing on the stars! These are the same people who went around the planet to every accessible buyer and sold them poison derivatives! To think they will do anything that will diminish their earnings is pure folly! And as far as Americans cutting back, yeah right, go look at your local "Freeway" and see the cars locked in an hour wait at rush hour! It is even worse here in Southern California then in most other areas of the nation. If the report Hartmann Quotes is true, we had better enjoy today because there is no tomorrow for most citizens of the World. All ii will take at this point in Europe or America is another financial bubble and all hell will break lose in our towns and cities. Time's for the middleclass and poor are bad now, just think of how bad it will be if the bubble burst's and there is economic collapse. The riots of past years will look like a school yard fight compared to what will happen when the jobs that we have, as limited as they are, disappear because of a bubble the Wall St. idiots may allow to happen. Personally if we think those in charge of our Corporations and our financial institutions will do anything to slow profits for their rich investors that now control Washington, you’re an idiot. It is time to store food, fuel and bullets if this scenario has any chance of playing out. I can remember in the 1975 gasoline shortage where people were actually shooting each other for cutting in line of other people searching for fuel for their means of transportation (cars!), then what Hartmann is proposing will bring even more shortage to the American consumers and all hell will break lose, especially since we seem to have an obsession for guns in America. Those of you are not old enough to remember the 70's have a real big surprise in store for you if the so called Carbon Bubble should actually burst and those bastards (O.P.E.C.) who we now protect with our dollars and military should decide to cut back on production of oil rather than take a cut in oil profits you are in for one hell of a ride, kiddies! Americans got real nasty when their gasoline was rationed out based on the number on your vehicles license plate numbers (odd and even days). Those of you who were around know what I am talking about. If that happens again and chaos spreads, you will wish you owned a few guns or rifles! And with the immense increase of consumers needing fuel to get to work to supply food on their family's table, it will get real interesting to say the least if the Carbon Bubble should actually burst because of Wall St.'s greed. You won't be talking about the green solution, you will be asking where your next meal will be coming from. For you so called youngsters in your thirties and forties look it up and see what transpired in those long lines for fuel that fueled your vehicles so you could just make it to work each day! It will be frightening is an understatement! One benefit of youth is the lack of real knowledge of what has happened and what might happen here and around the world. If you think jobs and times are hard now, wait until the bubble bursts. K.W.

ken ware's picture
ken ware 11 years 8 weeks ago

DeAnneMarc - I would like to make some comments based upon what I have seen on several major news channels, and NORMALLY I do not use them for a reference point, but here goes some simple logic from a simple guy, me. The eldest brother was known to have a terrible temper based on comments made by people who knew him on a personal basis. One of his family members stated that he and his family believed the conspiracy theory that Palindromedary continues to make reference to and that is the government of the United States was solely responsible for the 911 terrorist’s attacks and were using Muslims as the fall guys for these attacks. He was known to make statements of hatred towards the United States Government. The K.G.B. (I cannot recall at this moment what they are called today) or Russian secret police had notified Washington that the older brother was known to associate with known terrorists groups, but Washington wrote it off has an attempt by Moscow to get us involved in their internal affairs dealing with Russian terrorists. And most terrorists do not expect to die, just those who make themselves into a human bomb. The enhanced pictures did show these two brothers leaving a back(s) pack at the scene of the explosion. The older brother was killed in an exchange of gunfire with the police, while the younger of the two escaped and was found hiding in a boat not far from where his brother shot it out with the police. Had they shown some initiative in planning the crime and had planned a "smart get away" and used disguises like beards and padding with different clothing they would more than likely have at least gotten away from the area. Shooting the MIT officer was stupid at best and could have been avoided. If you are involved in a gun fight with the police and flee the scene as the younger brother was able to do, after your pictures are being spread to every news media in the country, you are probably guilty of something! These two guys were not the smartest terrorists I have read about at this point. And please don’t start with the theory the government did it; I think Palindromedary does a great job of it for everyone! And by the way, these two lunatics bought into the theory the government was responsible for 911 and this just fueled their hated for this country. The older and younger brother both came here as children, not adults. It was not there choice to start with and even when the older brother could have become a naturalized citizen he refused to. I believe the younger brother who did become a citizen was convinced by the elder brother to help him carry out this heinous act against Americans. I mentioned earlier this week I thought it was a lone nut job or homegrown terrorists that committed this act and in a sense it was both types of individuals. If this had been a true terrorist act it would not have been such an amateur job in the way it was carried out and the lack of plans to escape. Even the simplest person in the United States knows you are being watched by camera's, especially during a major event like the B.M.! This was an act of an individual who bought into the conspiracy theory and obviously had some anger or mental issues that played a part in what was done. As an older brother and probably the more dominate of the two, he convinced the younger to join in with his poorly planned attack against America. This goes to show you what conspiracy theories mixed with emotional instability can result in. In some small way the conspiracy theorists had a part in this whole mess. I doubt this will be the last we see of this type of attack on American soil and those who will plan the next attack have been given a perfect blue print of what not to do if you want to get away with your terrorists attack! You can blame the media for this, as well as the entities that were involved with catching these two brothers. An innocent person does not hide out in a boat to escape being interrogated by the F.B.I. Put all the circumstantial evidence together and you have a pretty good case against the two. And yes, people have been found guilty on circumstantial evidence in a court hearing. I believe this young man should have his trial, and then he should be hung or tied and quartered by horses.

Kend - This is off the subject, but it appears the oil from the Keystone pipeline is going to be refined once it hits the gulf and then loaded into tankers for China and other foreign entities. So how is it that we Americans will benefit from your Canadian Oil? I will go back and get the correct internet address for this information at a later time, I have to go out for the evening and I am running late.

D.A.M. - for those of you, who feel that weapons are not needed in your home, you need to understand that the police are a form of reactive protection. You get shot; they are called and react to the situation at hand. Their job is not to protect you before the crime is committed, but rather only to show up after the act is committed and try to find those who committed the act of violence. Those who would rather just deal with or accept the situation where you or your loved ones are attacked and depend on a higher entity or faith to protect you have a death wish! I do believe that all weapons should have a waiting time period and a back ground check should be made on anyone purchasing a weapon regardless of where the weapon is purchased. I also believe there should be a law against purchasing weapons on the internet, because there is no way to certify the person buying the weapon is who they claim to be. Making clips that hold more than five rounds illegal is ridiculous and it is too late to recall all the AK-47, AR-15's or any other semi-automatic assault weapons that are already out there in the public. We do need a law that requires everyone that wants to purchase a weapon or has a non-registered weapon in their possession to register themselves and their weapons. This might in some way help to stop the epidemic of senseless killings in our nation, hopefully. But with 300,000,000 weapons already out there, I am not sure any legislation at this point will work to change things. K.W.

D.A.M. Let's stop inviting the whole damn world into our nation, we have enough foreign born workers taking American jobs at an alarming rate as it is. We use to have a saying in war far, far away: Kill them all and let god separate the good ones from the bad. Very crude I will admit, but until you can tell which Muslims from the Middle East who want to do harm to Americans and those who do not, I do not give a damn who I offend regardless of their over whelming size in the world population. I am only concerned with what happens in America to Americans. The rest of the World can go to hell and that would not be my concern. America -1 World -0 in my accounting book. I would pull all funding and troops out of the Middle East and let them fend for themselves for a change. No more free hand outs to the rest of the World. The only way to wipe out terrorism from the radical Muslims is to either isolate them or bomb them all back to the Stone Age era using Drones or B-52's. That is the love I would show them from America. Back to my same old lovable sefl...

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Ken Ware ~

Carbon Bubble. Yes I too remember the 70s gas shortages. That was fun! Just when I got my first drivers license too. It helped me to decide to never work further than 7 -15 miles away from home. Fortunately, I found work with a company that offered a company car. I never have to worry about gas.

You would be surprised to learn that everyone who I know who lived through the same experience now live 45 -85 miles away from work, with no public transportation available, and their own vehicle relied upon solely. This is due to no fault of theirs. Due to the Housing Bubble they had no choice but to buy homes far away from the centers of work. Stuck in credit hock they were unable to sell their homes and take advantage of the burst of the Housing Bubble in 2008 and low home prices of a few years ago like those of us who waited. I remember how depressed I was in 2007 in our little apartment wondering if we were going to have to retire here. Little did I know that two years later I'd be living in a house even closer to work. Ha! How fate smiles on the patient few.

I digress! The bottom line is you are very very right my friend. Younger people don't know better. However, many older people don't know any better either.

The two BM bombing suspects. Circumstantial evidence is circumstantial evidence. It means nothing until it passes the scrutiny of a jury. You know that as well as I do Ken. I'd like to think that is what you fought the war for. Let's not jump the gun.

Gun ownership. As far as guns are concerned I believe he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. People with guns tend to shoot at other people with guns. My problem is staying out of the way. Case in point, that unlucky brother who is now dead, is dead because he relied on a gun to protect himself. The safe brother is the one who didn't have a gun. Ken, keep relying on your guns, I will keep relying on my wit, lets see who outlives who.

9/11. Ken, you keep mentioning that you believe anyone who thinks 9/11 was an inside job hates the Government and this country. I disagree. First off, far more people than you realize believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Not all of them hate America. In fact, a vast majority of them are quite passionately patriotic. Personally I don't believe this theory. I too need compelling evidence, a thorough investigation, and a trial to pass judgement in this issue. However, I do firmly believe that the US Government was 100% complicit in this crime. I say that, because the evidence to that effect is publically known. For your convenience I will repeat these three known and compelling facts:

1. The intelligence report about the impending attack was made officially available to both President Bush and Condoleezza Rice on more than one occasions. Both went far out of their way to pretend to ignore it. The entire charade at the classroom on the day of the attack was so reminiscent of the scene in the Godfather where the young Don attends a Baptism in a church as an alibi while his enemies are hit that the two events were probably inspired by the same real life mafia event. Remember, at the same instant, Papa Bush is having breakfast with the Bin Laden family.

2. When all air traffic was grounded, President George Bush issued an Executive Order allowing the Bin Laden family to fly out of the country. People waiting on donated organs were denied permission to have those organs flown to them; but, the family of the chief suspect in the crime was given Presidential permission to leave the country.

3. When Bin Laden was cornered in Bora Bora, President Bush ordered the troops surrounding him to stand down; which, of course, allowed him to escape. Again, when Bin Laden was discovered by another country, and offered to the US on a silver platter, President Bush refused to take him into custody and allowed him to escape again. Finally, President Bush uses the entire crime as a means to springboard the country into an illegal war with Iraq.

As far as concluding that the US Government committed 9/11 I disagree. However, I can see where these people draw this conclusion. It is obvious to me that without the aid and assistance of the highest ranking officials in the US Government 9/11 would not have been allowed to occur. Neither would the illegal and immoral war in Iraq.

Immigration and Muslims. As far as restricting immigration into this country fairly--across the board--I am in agreement with you Ken. Until we resolve our labor crisis we don't need to accept any more immigrants who can't find work and will only be hurting our own people with their ability and need to work for far less wages. We are also in agreement about pulling all of our troops out of Muslim countries and letting them fend for themselves. Of course, I can't agree with anything else you said, Ken, about Muslims. Ha! I'm sure you already know that. LOL!!

Outback ~ Thanks for pointing out that little gem. I too am a stickler for grammar! My pet peeve is "irregardless". I must say I cringe everytime I hear that non-word. I will endeavour in the future to make sure I'm in the right place at the right time. Thank you!

megalomaniac's picture
megalomaniac 11 years 8 weeks ago

“Restoring the National Guard as the centerpiece of our system of national defense” touches a cord with me. Decades ago the National Guard seemed to be committed to each state, helping in disaster relieve. But through the indulgence of both Congress and the Senate, now, the president can side step Governors using a so called war power act to call up the ”Local National Guard” to do dirty work clear across the world by volunteers. Those who join the National Guard should never have this fear.

To me it appears to be a military that can be bought and used by proxy, literally and highly likely by America current corruption standards which include secret money deals via the Federal Reserve, our treasury and the Stock market. The Republican Party has with all its effort revealed via Romney that a business person cannot be trusted to govern America. They all drink the Romney Rum distilled in the Canary Islands.

Perhaps that is how many could interpret this era in the current abuse of the National Guard system. Many of us can look back to see that it is a basic bungle in military management coupled with secret mercenaries, torture, big money influence, corporate stock market advantages by one percenters, inside trading by well-connected in an intrinsic way try to reinforce Democracy, foremost those who are privy to secret data base systems in this new media terror business, but really winds up yielding to huge islands of top one thousand top corporate tyrants that run through the Gaussian speed bump syphoning swindling deceiving through market media lies that “wash board” poor/middle class America, all intended to stabilize power of tyranny, not the poor/middle class.

That’s why I say dumping the Amortization loan concept here on earth is a way to go. I say that with the suggestion to pitch the Gaussian concept into space exploration; A real neat way that can compel investment for profiteers, both good bad and the ugly, especially those Newt’s that want to colonize the moon. That with a laugh and a chuckle to encourage all who want to expand mankind as God may want, send them out to where no man has gone before. President Obama has the potential to do it in this moment as he suggested he would with our help. If not don’t give up America, let’s be real understanding in polite way, just ask him to get off the bus until he changes his mind, because our president did not pay his “fair for the moment”.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Ken, yes the Alberta oil shipped through Keystone would go to Texas get refined and then get shipped all over the world as gas or diesel. Unless of course there is a shortage of oil in the world then it would be kept in the US. BUT it would replace about 900 million barrels a day that come from either Venusula, Nigeria, or Saudi Arabia in a ship across the ocean through the Gulf to Texas, as it is done now. All of those countries have terrible environmental policies. Not to mention human rights violations I could go on for thousands of words about them. To get to your point where the US makes its money is buying the oil value adding to it by changing the oil to fuel And reselling it. There hasn't been a refinery built in North America for 35 years. We have enough already. If Keystone doesn't get built they are going to build one in Canada in the NW And ship the value added product to China the other option is to ship the crude oil direct to China and let them refine it. China needs they are going to get it from somewhere. The unions here in Canada have been protesting because they want the refinery built here by them and creating more Canadian jobs to build it and run it forever. My point has always been we need to be energy self sufficient here in North America. If we can accomplish this we don't need the Middle East and we can get the hell out of there, then it would be a European problem. They would have to patrol the gulf there and make sure there countries don't run out of oil. We will see if European countries have all that free education and health care when they have to start paying the bills. Plus all these nuts from the Middle East will leave us alone After we get out for here.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Kend ~ I like the cut of your jib. Great theory. Only one big problem--it's still fossil fuel. We need to focus our resources on biofuel and solar energy. There is plenty of that available and it doesn't throw CO2 into the atmosphere. Biofuel does, but it balances out when the plants produce oxygen during the growth cycle.

In short, your goals are sound. However your energy source sucks. Remember, all fossil fuels are merely solar energy stored in plants and fossilized over centuries. Let's endeavour to feed off the living and let the dead RIP. As a planet, if we feed off of death we die. If we feed off of life we live.

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

don't get me wrong i would love to use solar and wind but we just aren't there yet. Besides Canada is only responsible for 1.8 % of the worlds green house gas and we havehundreds of millions of acres of trees and plants purifying the air. China and India are the problem but of course there is no mention of them because there is no way to make any money off them for what they are doing to the environment. I lived long enough to see how we where going to burn to death because of the Ozone layer of course we didn't there was no problem. Then we where going freeze to death because tempatures where falling. Scientist where going to spray the I entire Arctic with a insulating foam to cool the earth down, that was only 30 years ago so I have to sit and wonder if 30 years from now if the next generation is going to think we where as stupid as they where. All I know is the earth has heated and cooled it self for 50 million years to think a little car exhaust would change it still hard for me to beleive. We have spent hundreds of billions on this DAnneMarc Ian's it hasn't changed a thing. We have reduced green house gases by ZERO. Do you he now how many children would get better health care and schooling with that kind of money. What if wwe are wrong. Besides we wouldn't be ready for green energy for at least 30 or 40 years min. so lets go with my plan for now.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago
Quote Kend:
Let me make it clear not all Muslims are bad I know that I just hate the ones that blow shit up.

But what about all of the innocent men, women and children Muslims that have been blown up or shot (guts spilling out..eyeballs out of their sockets...skulls crushed...missing arms and legs) by our "brave" soldiers conducting an illegal war of aggression? Al Jazeera is about the only way for you to see what the US "terrorism" has done to people. You don't see much of that on main stream media...they won't even let you see caskets or body bags of our soldiers coming back from those illegal wars. It's all political propaganda. They let you see what they want you to see...and now, since it serves their interests to freak you out over internal terrorism, they will allow all the gory details into your living rooms for all to have night mares over. Did you see that photo of the man in a wheel chair...(search: google images Boston Marathon bombing)..his one leg up into the air...nothing but a bone with the flesh stripped back and hanging off of it. Truly, a very gory sight. But typical of the hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children civilians that US forces have been responsible for in the ME.

I don't know if the young men who are being blamed for the BM bombings are really guilty or not. But, of course, if you believe the stories that we are being told about the photos and the police shoot outs..and chase...and suspected explosives tossed out of their car at police...then you probably believe, totally, that the police got the right people.

But, could all of this have been manufactured? Could these guys have been set up as patsies? How about this for a scenario...the two of which may have been reported by Russian authorities as having some vague contact with Al Qaida (or not! we just believe this? And even if it were true...what kind of contact was it? Does that automatically condemn the guy for being an Al Qaida sympathizer..let alone being an active participant?).

The parents (naturally would tend to say their children were innocent) also say that they knew that the FBI had been spying on the brothers. Although their, perhaps cowardly, Uncle was totally condemning of the boys...perhaps he was more scared of what people might think of him...or being deported...than the truth?

What if the brothers were contacted by the FBI, or other agency, and made to think they would be paid a large sum of money to participate in some official operation and all they had to do is carry backpack (even if they didn't have bombs in them) to a certain location at the BM to meet someone. Or maybe they were lured to this place thinking they would meet someone...a couple of girls? This would put them at the scene of the bombings...with video evidence...and after the bombs (perhaps already planted by other agents) went off... the brothers realized they've been duped and made a run for it.

The cops and FBI are all after the boys...and the story about the gun fire exchange and especially the suspected explosive devices thrown out the window of the car...could all be total lies....that many people would just naturally tend to believe. After all, the idea that they would be in a heated gun fire exchange with the police would fit nicely in with someone who set off bombs. If you believe would believe the other.

Why would the authorities lie...right? Yeah....right! They lie all the time. Why do you keep believing that they are always telling you the truth?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago
Quote Kend:
I think you are under estimating how many terrorists there is in the world that want to kill Americans.

But of course...why shouldn't they want to kill Americans. Americans have massacred their families. In fact, there are those who have profited off of the war both monetarily and politically who created more potential "terrorists" than they have tried to win over hearts and minds because terrorism means more control over others by using fear of terrorism. So the chickens go running to the wolves for protection. The chickens don't know that the wolves are wolves.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Palindromedary ~ That theory is right out of the Lee Harvey Oswald script! One might ask than why is the younger brother still breathing? Of course, you would probably say he was an ignorant accoplice following his big brother on a fools errand. His brother who had the real story was then silenced. Wow Palindromedary your thinking is contageous. LOL

I agree with Kend's statement with this alteration: I hate ANYONE who blows stuff up!

Hows that?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago
Quote Ken Ware:
One of his family members stated that he and his family believed the conspiracy theory that Palindromedary continues to make reference to and that is the government of the United States was solely responsible for the 911 terrorist’s attacks and were using Muslims as the fall guys for these attacks.
And please don’t start with the theory the government did it; I think Palindromedary does a great job of it for everyone! And by the way, these two lunatics bought into the theory the government was responsible for 911 and this just fueled their hated for this country.

Why, Ken, what ever in the world are you trying to imply here?

But, you are right that I believe powerful, wealthy, and influential forces within the US (coupled, perhaps with the Wahabi regime of Saudi Arabia, and Israel) were the real masterminds behind 911. Just because these suspected BM terrorists may have believed the same what!? Almost half of the people in the US believe that we were not told the truth by our authorities about what went down on 911.

Some people believe that the Bush regime knew full well what was going to happen...but let it happen so they could use it as an excuse to send forces to the Middle East and do an illegal invasion of Afghanistan then Iraq. Why did the 19 "hijackers" who were being watched and reported on by the FBI use a hands off policy toward them?

Some people, like Ken, seem to want to believe that our government could never do anything bad to their citizens. And although they would send thousands of soldiers to murder civilians (women and children) and die in other countries themselves...they'd never stage a false flag operation killing a few thousand here in the US. ;-{

I mean, if you did this, it would mean making everyone so afraid and ultra patriotic that they would all act like automatons and back anything the treasonous "officials" wanted. It would mean distracting people's minds away from the decades of criminal casino capitalism that was ruining people's lives. And if we had not had a terrible mass mind f4ck on 911 we would have concentrated on all of those corporations like MCI and Enron (just the tip of the iceberg) and the impending mortgage collapse...the massive derivative scandals...etc.

Two of the places that were targeted and hit on 911 were centers that were investigating massive financial in one of the WTC buildings and the other in the Pentagon. And even the one FBI agent John P. O'Neal was sent to die in the WTC towers, as head of security, something like 19 days before 911. John O'Neal maybe knew too much about Usama bin Laden's connections with the CIA? O'Neal "joked" that maybe the terrorists would finish the job of 1993....and there are serious questions about that bombing as well as are there about the OKC bombings.

And then, PNAC had already had the plans for how things would be...invasion of the ME..control of the oil...fear that OPEC would turn away from the US dollar as a standard...all they needed was "another Pearl Harbor".

And so, like Pearl Harbor (another false flag planned and designed by FDR using the McCollum memo)* and the Joints Chief of Staff Northwoods Operation.... the PNAC traitors engineered 911.

* 8 step plan to provoke Japan into attacking the United States. President Roosevelt, over the course of 1941, implemented all 8 of the recommendations contained in the McCollum memo.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

DAnnemarc: He may be still breathing but he can't talk...a throat injury...I think. How convenient...he can't even Oswald did: "I'm a patsy!" But, like with Oswald, no one would believe him anyway. It has to be sanctioned by the ones in control of our "freedom of speech".

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Well said Palin but the ones that blow up our buildings don't care about who we blow up. They aren't worried about our drones they don't care who dies from them. What they fear the most is that we will educate the girls and women there and they can't control, rape and beat them at will Anymore. Can you imagine the poor guys won't be able to light their wive on fire anymore for looking at a man. They couldn't bury them to the waste and stone them to death for being raped by five guys on a bus coming ome from school. We threaten there way of life. Traditions that have gone on for centuries. Those are the Muslims I hate and don't belong here. maybe I should just put up with it, maybe they didn't get enough hugs when they where little or, maybe they didn't fit in at the mosk they attended. Maybe they didn't fit in at the "I hate America" terrorist school they signed up for. Don't get to soft.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

Palindromedary ~ So big brother still lives? That's wonderful! Now there can be a trial and the truth found out. This should prove to be more interesting than the OJ trial. Even if he can't speak he can write. Never underestimate the power of the pen!

As far as what you said to Ken Ware is concerned, a very good question indeed. "What are you implying?" It would appear he suspects all open minded citizens who are critical thinkers that criticize the Government are capable of mindless violence toward other innocent citizens. If so, this in and of itself is very dangerous thinking. Please clarify your comments Ken Ware. I'm sure that is not what you meant. Sometimes Ken we defend our passions with less reasoning than otherwise.

Personally, I don't think this is the end result of any organized terrorist effort. Home grown, lone nut, or Government orchestrated fits the facts. Quite frankly Palindromedary, from that intelligence report captured from Islamic correspondences I got the impression that any real terrorist organization that would strike in the US has the wherewithal to pull off a much grander act. This event has low brow written all over it. To suggest that an organized terrorist group would resort to something as simple as a pressure cooker in a backpack is an insult to the intelligence of organized terrorist. To find the American public buying such an explanation is an insult to the intelligence of the American public.

Not particularly surprising!

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 11 years 8 weeks ago

~ cont ~ The converse can also be said. The fact that we have not suffered a greater terrorist attack since 9/11 goes to show how much more humanitarian the adversary is than the US Government. The very idea that this Government has kept us free from attack--while simultaneously creating more enemies--from Islamic extremists since 2001; and yet now two kids, a pressure cooker, and a back pack have been able to do what Al Qaeda has been unable to do flies in the face of logic, reason, and common sense all at the same time. Give me a brake!

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

So on the Chris Matthews show they are talking about all of the tears in the church where they are morning the victims of the BM bombing as if this was really heart moving scene (and of course it was)...and then Chris Matthews says something like "Compare this with those people over there (the Middle East) who have just gotten used to it" if to say.."hey, they are used to dying..they don't show emotions like we who really gives a sh1t...look at how our people grieve and show lots of emotion.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

DAnnemarc: One of Islam's heroes is Salahuddin (known in the west as Saladin). Despite Saladin's foes' atrocities and senseless butchery against their cities, Saladin was very fair and spared many lives of the enemy's cities that he conquered...and he conquered most of them. And for that he was recognized and celebrated as someone who is honorable...unlike his foes who have been scorned as senseless butchers. I'd say that the US has such butchers and it has not led an honorable existence. The world knows what the US has done. And the US should, rightly, be scorned for it. Perhaps Bush or even Obama would fit the picture of Richard the Chicken Hearted. Because only chickens fight like cowards with superior weapons and at a safe distance with very little risk of dying in a conflict. Only chickens murder hundreds of thousands of civilians and then shrug it off as "collateral damage".

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

Hey, Kend, I hear what you are saying and because I have been exposed, all my life, to probably the same kind of systemic brainwashing in the way people should live...I am very repulsed by some of the ways people of other countries treat their women.

But, even the United States has not gone without a certain amount of historical unfairness and brutality toward women. It wasn't until fairly recently that the "age of majority" for sexual purposes, marriage, etc. in some states went from 16, in many states, to 18; and, in a few states, it went from 13 to 18 (or is it to 16?).

I know that, in checking out marriage licenses in the state where I went to high school, that I discovered that there were a number of girls that were married at the age of 16.

It has been a long hard struggle for many women to get equal rights and equal pay and many still don't get paid as much as a man in the same job. And the US has a history of treating women very badly and letting an abusive husband beat them and even murder them because she and her lover were caught in the act.

I know this is not exactly the same when compared to many violent acts like in India where the wife was expected to throw herself on her husband's funeral pyre and burn up with her husband...and if she didn't do it voluntarily, the husband's family would throw kerosine on her and lite her up. But they have been trying to modernize and crack down on this kind of thing.

Or in some Arabic countries where women were stoned to death for adultery...or murdered by their male relatives for having dishonored the family for having sex with someone. And then there is an abominable practice of female genital mutilation. All these things are horrible to us in the west.

But the thing to remember is that these things, while they do happen frequently, they do not happen all the time. There are many "enlightened" and more "civilized" people in those countries that do not practice the "backward" and "shameful" deeds that others do.

And despite the fact that Saddam Husein and his sons (especially the sons) treated women badly--raped them whenever they wanted--most women in Iraq were treated very well and fairly equal to men....until the US barged in and destroyed a relatively civilized country.

But there are things in the west that are abominable to those in the east. If Muslims looked at only a few instances in the US and tried to paint all of the US based on just those few instances then they would he just as wrong-headed as many westerners. One thing they abhor is how sexually lose, especially in public they think we are. They think we're all shameless greedy sluts and war-mongering hypocrites. Not all of us are like that, of course, just the few that run the country.

But those westerners who scorn the lifestyles in other countries seem to have cognitive dissonance when it comes to their willingness to maim and murder many of those women and children by invading and killing them. All to satisfy some western moral code. There is no universally correct morality-- IMHO! Just the ones that everyone tries to force on others.

I lived and worked in Saudi was a good experience in that I was able to broaden my understanding of the world but I sure wouldn't want to live there permanently. That's their world...I don't want to change it..that is their business..and I realize that if we try...we'll will just get bogged down in meddling in someone else's business...costing us way more than it is worth. We are not, nor should we be, the world's policemen or moral compass.

I feel lucky I made it back without getting my head cut off.

Outback 11 years 8 weeks ago

Palindromedary - Been riding along, listening to all the dialog. Your point about women in our society vs the Muslim societies really does bring it home. We are quick to point out how unfair the Taliban are to their women, yet it's been less than a century since the people of the USA have regarded women as anything much beyond possessions. And when you get right down to it, we still don't treat them fairly. But it seems to make us feel good (superior) to point out the shortcomings of the Muslim culture.

On the topic of conspiracies, the thought that every time an economic biggie reaches the threshold of public awareness, some violent act happens to distract us. I'm thinking the sequestration crisis (bang! goes Sandy Hook Elementary), then the Social Security switcheroo by Obama (pow! goes the Boston Marathon).

Hmmm.... Is there some pattern here?

Kend's picture
Kend 11 years 8 weeks ago

Palin here is my point, when you where in Saudi You followed all of there customs or there would be grave consequences. Other cultures come here and want us to change. Like winter holidays instead of Xmas holidays. Our RCMP had to change there uniforms to allow turbins And it goes on and on yet when you go there, well we all know how tolerant they are. Lets not forget as well when you talk about US interference there would be no Kauwait if it wasn't for the US. how far would have Sadam gone. But it's time to come home and look after ourselves. We can only do that if we are energy self suffencient.

Outback 11 years 8 weeks ago

PD - Oh, that last line nearly got past me. "I feel lucky I made it back without getting my head cut off."Do you still hear from Fatima, you sly dog? ;-)

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

Outback: Well said! And, some patterns? I don't know how one cannot see a pattern. Our whole judicial system relies not only on cold hard evidence but they also rely on patterns. On rifling patterns on bullets, on DNA matches, on reports from relatives, neighbors and fellow workers on the observed characteristics of one's behavior. All enough to get a person sent to prison for life...or executed. But, it seems none of these things matters when we are talking about a state power. When they are "too big to prosecute" and when they own all the money and the media...right along with most of the politicians...then what is a poor citizen to do? If one were really willing to learn the truth, one has to do it without relying on those who have a vested interest in ensuring one believes their lies.

Of course one has to be wary about some patterns because one can see just about anything in the clouds. One can even believe he is seeing a continual repetition of certain numbers as having a significance. ;-}

But clouds are pretty random and one cannot imagine that they would have any vested interests for one to see any particular pattern in them..unless one is into anthropomorphism and superstition. But the same is not so for greedy and powerful men who have lots to gain or lose if the majority of people don't believe their lies. They have known for a long time how to mold minds in a fashion that will benefit them. Fear is the biggest molder. And these people have more than enough power to create lots of fear.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

Outback: Yeah, I hear the old witch Ululating all the time..but I think it is merely tinnitus.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

Kend: My thought on that is that people coming here should obey and respect our laws and customs just as we have to, and should want to, respect the laws and customs when we travel to other countries. In Saudi Arabia, we would not have been able to walk into a Mosque with our shoes on...and, although I've never wanted to or tried it...even enter a Mosque. I believe the general attitude there is that you can't go into a Mosque unless you are Muslim. You certainly can't go into the holy cities, like Mecca or Medina, in Saudi Arabia unless you are a Muslim on pilgrimage. In fact, it may have changed since I was there but, you can't even go to Saudi Arabia unless you have a special work visa or a pilgrimage visa. I don't believe tourists are ever allowed.

I believe that Sharia law should end as soon as they leave their countries and not be enforced in other countries. If they want to come here then let them bow down to our rules and regs and customs as we have to do the same when going to their countries.

But, I remember when I was a kid in school that the Catholics tried the same thing in our school lunch menus. They got away with telling us that we had to have fish on Fridays. And they also made us say the Lord's Prayer...when all of us were not religious...but we were forced to do it anyway.

It's not just the Muslims that want to force the rest of us to accept their ways. Our school systems are constantly under attack by fundamentalists who want to enforce the teaching of superstitious non-sense as if it was truth and a meaningful part of everyone's lives.

Outback 11 years 8 weeks ago

PD: I would think by now she'd be well past the age of ululating. And I think a course of penicillin should clear up that tinnitus in short order.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 11 years 8 weeks ago

Penicillin didn't's a Penicillin resistant "venerable" disease. As Rodney Dangerfield would say "I don't get no respect!" That's why I'm saving my fun(sp?) a last effort to cure my disease. Just joking!!! Actually, I can usually just ignore my condition by not thinking about it. And because I'm now thinking about it...I am getting a whole chorus of cacophony. But the chirping crickets can put me to sleep and would do so if it weren't for the contrapuntal screeching of harpies that keep me awake. The sometimes clicking and popping keeps me guessing as to whether or not the neighbors are having marital discord again or whether the swat team is at it again a few door down.

Tara T's picture
Tara T 11 years 8 weeks ago


There's plenty we can do about China. Like how about start making stuff in our own country again rather than giving all the manufacturing jobs to countries like China? It'll be as simple as Tariffs or VAT taxes. Those manufacturers will pull up in a hurry then.

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