So, of course, as the war on drugs begins to be decimated...the repubs have to begin to fill it with another useless spending war. Why not the war on immigration? We wouldn't want to actually use our tax dollars for the betterment of our society afterall. What good would that do us?

Children should NOT pay for the mistakes of their parents Thats UNacceptable to any reasonable person Of course that excludes T Bagger run GOP Boehner Cantor Mcconnell Bachman Rove FOX followers ...

The problem with this bill is that it does all the wrong things. The people shouldn't be charged as criminals and certainly their children shouldn't. The kids should be allowed to stay and the adults who broke the law should be made to leave. We Dems hate the fact that good jobs are being outsourced for cheap labor but then we support importing (yes they are already here) cheap labor. Many of the jobs these people take are pretty hard and then we support a fixed lower wage. The line that Americans won't do these jobs always leaves off "at the wages offereed. Why are we willing to subsidize agi-business, construction and the hotel industry. You have those jobs to fill; pay whatever it will take to fill them. The free market after all is the Republican way. Hard for them to argue. If this bill passes it will continue to depress wages, throw many more lower income citizens out of work, cost us more money just when the "entitlement" budgets are being cut and ten years from now there will be 5-10 million more illegal aliens in the country. Don't offer jobs, don't offer benefits, don't offer citizenship, deport immediately when caught and offer incentives to leave (priority over others to get back in) and most will leave and we don't have to spend billions building walls and then billions more each year maintaining them. If you reward bad behavior you are guaranteed to get more of it.

The obvious purpose of this criminalization proposal is to create a huge free-labor pool for easy enslavement by the prison industry. Its hidden agenda -- obvious to those of us who are union members and understand how immigrants are already being persecuted for their labor activism -- is to make it easier for union-minded immigrants to be arrested, imprisoned, enslaved and deported.

Given how the total corruption of the Democrats results in effectively unchallenged rule by The One Party of Two Names, there's no doubt this new Republican effort expresses the true will of the One Percent. And given how the anti-immigrant raids ordered by Barack the Deporter always focus on labor activists (and are therefore de facto union-busting operations), it's obvious the DemocRats will go along with it, demonstrating once again they are merely GOPorkers in disguise.

So ends immigration reform, another example of "change we can believe in."

I am with Thom just put employers in jail that hire undocumented workers. If we do this, we wil not have to deport anyone. When I our unemployment rate becomes less than 4% we can think about providing a path to citizenship.

Are immigrants, who sneak across the border, really "immigrants" or are they criminals? If we snuck across the border into Mexico or into Canada..or even tried to sneak past border control of any other country how do you think they would treat us? These criminals are effectively stealing from citizens of the US by taking away jobs that Americans could have. Because they are willing to work cheaply, they undercut American wages. And before long, or perhaps it is already happening, Americans will have to compete with these people for whatever is left of the benefits that Americans are supposed to get.

Are the businesses, that "knowingly" use these "immigrants", not criminals themselves? Maybe we should deport them...not the businesses...but the top executives who are ultimately responsible for taking advantage of cheap labor by hiring illegal aliens.

Aren't the real "drug dealers" also running our banks and businesses and sitting in our Congress? Maybe it is about time America shuts down our borders...stop all those foreigners from entering our country by air...or at least thoroughly check each and every one out before they enter our country. Business wouldn't like that would they!

If the US government had been more picky about who they let into the country prior to 911...the real traitors who planned and carried out 911 would not have gotten those "patsies" into the country. One, the 20th "hijacker", didn't make it into the country because one American Hero border agent took a big chance, risking his career, by stopping this arrogant Saudi Arab from coming into the country.

The Bush administration was all hands off in allowing these people into the country despite all of the warnings of an imminent attack. They needed their patsies for the scheme to work!

And despite the fact that Susan Lindauer, a CIA asset, helped to ruin the Neocon's con game of plausible deniability (ie: being able to say things like "who could have expected that terrorists would hijack planes and crash them into buildings"), after 911 happened, they said those things anyway thinking they had Susan Lindauer stuck in a prison with no visitors and about to be chemically lobotomized. Susan Lindauer's call to Ashcroft, just a couple of weeks before 911, warning him of the imminent attacks, made them very mad because then they would not be able to claim they didn't know anything about an imminent attack.

Then after the 911 attack..the "Bin Laden determined to strike.." memo became public showing what liars the Bush administration was. But what gets me is that the Bush administration continued to lie us into illegal wars in the Middle East. And people bought it hook, line, and sinker. And many people still don't get it that 911 was largely an inside job. They can watch those WTC towers collapse, at near free-fall speed, in their own footprints just like in any other demolition and they can't see with their very own eyes that the official government conspiracy theory is a lie. I guess Americans love to be lied to and don't mind being gullible.

The Times had an article today concerning the immigration legislation that our wonderful government is trying to put together. To start with I am against giving what amounts to as amnesty for people that have broken our immigration laws to get here. All this will accomplish is to spread the idea that if you can get your family and yourself inside of our borders you will have nothing to worry about, because tens of millions of other illegal aliens have done it and are working at American companies. It is not our responsibility to keep these families together when their parents make the decision to disregard our immigration laws and "sneak" (that is the kindest word I can come up with for these individuals) themselves and their family members across our border illegally. As I was stating, the Times article today stated that several major Tech companies and one Software company have each donated a million dollars ($7,000,000.00) to buy lobbyist to try to convince congress to increase the number of work visas and green cards in the Immigration Bill, so they will have an endless supply of cheap labor to assure greater profits for these companies where more than likely they are being filled with illegal workers now. Hartmann as a left wing liberal progressive has a habit of understating facts when it comes to making a point concerning something he agrees with and understating the facts concerning something he does not agree with. The latest "guess" we have because no government estimates can be evaluated since the government immigration agency, I.C.E. is not sure; Many have calculated there are some 20,000,000 illegal aliens that have violated our immigration laws and have illegally taken up residence in our country. That is almost twice the number the left wants us to believe have entered our country illegally. As a moderate Independent, I will take the middle ground and say there are 15,000,000 illegal aliens in our country. Does anyone realize how many Americans have been put out of work because of these people? Employers who need full time permanent workers make a bundle off cheap illegal workers. They hire them as independent contractors and therefore do not have to pay for their (the employers) part of the of Social Security tax that is paid into our S.S. system when you hire a person. They do not need to pay for disability insurance on them as independent contractors, nor do they have to worry about them asking for health insurance, because most of them (illegals)use the public hospitals and avoid paying their bills here in California. Our schools are overcrowded with illegal alien children and a large cost of the school budgets go to interpreters and special needs of children who are here illegally. The law does not differentiate whether you are an illegal adult or child. Our prisons have a large percentage of their population that are illegal aliens and were caught committing crimes and will be sent back to their country of origin. I realize the left wingers are going to state that I am a heartless uncaring individual with no compassion for these people. And, they would be right to state so. I am not the type of person who tries to be politically correct when discussing this matter. Here in California the blue collar work force has been decimated by the large and ever growing population of cheap illegal workers taking their (American's) jobs in order to increase the profits of these companies. From carpenters and construction workers to simple production jobs, you will find it is difficult to find a place that hasn't replaced American workers with illegal cheap labor here in California. Three busloads of illegal workers headed to the Midwest (to a meat packing company) were pulled over by local police and Immigration was called in to arrest these people and eventually send them back to Mexico. Many states that are thousands of miles from our borders have been forced to create and enforce laws to stop the never ending flow of illegal workers into their states, because the Federal Government (I.C.E.) refuses to do their job properly, especially around election times. Why is it we are called to overlook the fact that these people have violated our laws to get here and we are expected to overlook that fact because it is too expensive to enforce the laws currently on the books? If you want to verify these statements just Google any of the comments I have made and see for yourself. Washington is pressing for new Immigration laws not because it is the right thing to do, because it is not, they are doing it because they want to retain those political donations from companies who make large profits from illegal workers as well as wanting an endless supply of cheap labor with work visas and green cards to take the place of American workers here in our states and home towns. Try going to any other country and illegally enter their nation to take jobs from their citizens, because that is why they are here illegally, and see how long you last without going to jail. I even doubt that the great frozen lake to the north of us would allow Americans to illegally enter their sovereignty and work illegally! We do not need new Immigration laws; we need to enforce the laws we already have here in America. Sincerely, K.W.

Palin - I will say one thing about you, you never hesitate to interject your theory on 9-11 regardless of the subject!! I have decided no matter how crazy you sound, I am not going to point out the fallacies in your claims, it does no good to try! Ken. (But I will comment like I have today) Have a good night, my friend.

I used to "buck bales" (note: that is a "b"!) when I was a kid going to school. Bucking bales of hay (ie: walking along side a flat bed truck and tossing bales of hay up for someone up in the flat bed to stack, we took turns up in the truck).

We kids worked our butts off in the hot sun...sweat and dirt and hay chaff got in our eyes constantly..always sunburned. We worked for just a few cents per bale and made enough money to buy things we wanted. I realized then that if I didn't work...I wouldn't have any money to spend.

Perhaps many kids today wouldn't do such a thing or even work "picking jobs" in the fields...but I bet there are some who would. Of course, if you are competing with cheap Mexican laborers there is not much incentive to do that.

You could argue, I suppose, that these cheap laborers keep our food prices down..but I'd argue that the food prices are not kept down by cheap labor...but the profits of these exploiter company executives, stock holders, etc are the real winners by hiring illegal cheap labor from Mexico...the corporatist and capitalist profits are up.

The problem with the manufactured mentality of people today, even...or especially..kids, is that they've all been Bernaysed (ie: Edward Bernays--the "buy now before it's too late" --the "your neighbor has one so you too deserve to have one too"--progagandist). We've all bought into the propaganda idolizing the uber rich and many people believe that they too will be very wealthy one day...not through hard work but through the same kind of trickery that the uber rich have done.

And now, some of them want the rest of us to believe that we need these cheap laborers, that they just want to feed their families too! The last part may be very true but if we had the very same mentality about the rest of the world, as well, then good luck on trying to feed your own families.

If you spread the American wealth out over the whole world, every one of us Americans would be living way below poverty levels...Those same idiots who espoused NAFTA, the Clintonistas, which is breaking the back of Americans, are the same ones who may think that we should "tear down the walls" of our borders and hold hands with everyone with their hands out...and sing Cubaya. Be careful, people, those hands will likely pick your pockets...perhaps not overtly...but it will happen just the same... over time.

The problem with foreign laborers earning all that cash that they would not have previously earned in Mexico is that when they take that cash back, or send it back to family, the capitalist hyenas in Mexico will raise their prices on everything including food. I've been there many times and I know that there are some department stores that even I wouldn't shop in because their prices were way too high..I couldn't imagine how most Mexicans could afford to pay those prices. Maybe they had a different credit arrangement there...buy a shirt and spend 30 years paying it off kind of thing?

By letting the foreigners work here...are we really doing them any favors? Short term...maybe yes...long term...they will still be poor and stuck with paying higher prices due to inflationary influx of money. But, the few hyenas will be still be filthy rich! And so will the capitalist hyenas right here in America. They'll be eating us all for lunch!

The Government never wanted to stop the flow of cheap labor. We need cheap labor to pick our crops work the sweat shops, etc, etc. Easy to stop, put those who hire "them" in jail and out of business.

Black no longer doing that work, on wellfare , Brown next to be on WF. Need to import yellow next to pick the crops, etc. After that bact to white the new minority.

Quote ken ware:
Palin - I will say one thing about you, you never hesitate to interject your theory on 9-11 regardless of the subject!!.... I am not going to point out the fallacies in your claims, it does no good to try!

Palindromedary wrote ~ "They can watch those WTC towers collapse, at near free-fall speed, in their own footprints just like in any other demolition and they can't see with their very own eyes that the official government conspiracy theory is a lie. I guess Americans love to be lied to and don't mind being gullible."

No, Palindromedary! The American people don't like being lied to anymore than you or I. The problem is cognitive dissonance. Once people admit to themselves that the official story is a lie they are presented with a set of responsibilities that they have to accept in order to proceed. Those responsibilities are so threatening to their current comfort level that they simply choose to believe the lie. Follow the path of least resistance if you will. The powers that orchestrated these deceptions count on that human flaw--the same way con artists operate. They tell you what you want to believe.

I've experienced this effect all my life--most notably in the Vietnam War. The majority of people in this country believed the war was completely necessary. They were willing to send their very own children off to die in a foreign land for a reason they could not even explain clearly and logically. Put simply, they were too comfortable to complain.

Basically, that is what it is going to take to effect change--massive, wide-spread discomfort. Only when the witnesses experience the pain of the victims will change begin to occur.

Keep up the good work buddy.

Actually, I would be in favor of rounding up every last "immigrant" who came here illegally, no matter when they came...say within the last 10 or 20 years, and ship them, and their children (even if they were born here) back to where they came. This would send a shock, a wake up call, to anyone, in the future, that thinks that all they have to do is to sneak over here, and have their babies born as citizens of the US. I think the laws should be changed that people born in the US, unless their parents are here legally, will not be considered US citizens by birth. That would take the steam out of people wanting to come here. The way it is, and will probably continue to be in the future, there is no "moral hazard" ...just like banksters and wall streeters will continue to repeat their wrong doings and continue to get away with it...the illegal aliens will continue to play the game until the US gets tough and stops being a push over. Those who we deport, who may have lived here for a while should be given an opportunity to seek legal residence in the US. But anyone who tries to come here illegally, in the future, should be permanently banned from the US for a long period of time.

Either that, or the US should give back all those territories that it stole from Mexico in the first place! ;-] Goodbye Texas!...Goodby California! ;-} And while we're at it...we should give back to the Indians all of the land that we stole from them! ;-} We should have a forced march...a new "trail of tears" of all the greedy politicians and businessmen and force them to all march to Mexico and make them all swallow the worm...and live in little squalid adobe huts for the rest of their lives! Then we should run the film in reverse, go back and kiss King George's butt and apologize for being such revolutionaries, pay our taxes, then run the film back even further and assassinate that sick bastard Christopher Columbus and all those proselytizing hypocrites that came after (requires a little jigging of the film forwards and backwards so as not to miss any of them sick bucks (that's a "b" as in male deer).

Palindromedary wrote ~ "...Goodbye Texas..."

LMFAO! Back when I was in College I got a chance to see a new group called "The Boneshakers," at my student union for free. One of the songs they wrote/sung was called, "I Blew Up The United States." The chorus of that song went: "Little bits of Texas floating out into space, I blew up the United States." I never forgot how funny that sounded. G. H. W. Bush was in office at that time and I couldn't help but think he inspired the song. Ah, how I miss real music.

Ken Ware -- I think I have asked this question before, but I can't be sure. Do you listen to Thom? Thom agrees with Romney use eVerify aggressively. Thom and I think after 2 or 3 CEOs go to jail the problems you describe will be gone.

Palindromedary #26 -- Almost sounds as if we should get of homo sapiens. Not to worry, the carbon corporations are carrying out that mission.

DAnnmarc: I read the lyrics because I couldn't understand the words very well in the song.
Lyrics and song:
http://www.maxilyrics.com/was-%28not-was%29-i-blew-up-the-united-states-...

Now, that's just so....so...radical! ;-}

Thanks for clearing that up, chucke8! By the way, I've been wondering...is chuckle8 supposed to be a play on the word chocolate? Palindromedary is, of course, a Dromedary Camel with two opposing heads and no behind. I suppose if it were on a cigarette package there would be two ladies in evening gowns instead on just one. But I don't smoke..not for many decades.

DAnnemarc: I pretty much have to read the lyrics...just can't understand the words. The audio has to be pretty good with no background noise for me to understand the words. I could run it through Audacity and tinker with it but I haven't had much success doing that. I can sometimes use Audacity to turn a noisy unintelligible youtube lecture into something that I can sometimes understand....remove the background noise..use various filters...speed up or slow it down. VLC media player can manipulate the audio for many things I normally have problems understanding. Unfortunately, captioning of youtube is pretty bad and is rare anyway.

Viva the spirit of Cesar Chavez and Delores Huerta on the coming occasion of Cinco De Mayo! (Cesar Chavez day was on March 31). They had it right...boycott!

Palindromedary ~ Interesting perspective.! All the lyrics look fine to me except one critical one.

"All I did was listen to the face. I blew up the ..."

Not so my friend. What I remember clearly when I was 25 years old was, "All I did was listen to the fate's, I blew up the ..."

Makes more sense to me when combined with the lyric, "...the voice inside my head said, 'Do what you are told'".

2950-10K ~ You are so right. Never looked at it that way! Thanks for setting me "Straight." LMFAO Good night to all!!

I hear that the Bay to Breakers race in San Francisco wasn't taking any chances....prohibiting knapsacks! Good! That's what they should have done in Boston.

And speaking of "poison pills" (finally, eh?) did you hear about the attempted poisoning at a Starbucks in San Jose? It was very lucky for someone that the woman was caught trying to put containers of orange juice that had been tainted with rubbing alcohol inside of the Starbucks refrigerator. They caught the woman...probably just some kind of a grudge against Starbucks. Starbucks is just going to have to be nicer to people, I guess. Start having decaf already brewed so people don't have to wait. They never have decaf ready and have to make it special...Room for cream?

The woman must have fully known what she was doing because she has degrees in chemistry and worked as a chemist for many years. There was a lethal dose of rubbing alcohol in those containers of orange juice according to authorities. Don't drink the orange juice!!!

I think we should ban all rubbing alcohol...or at least before someone can buy a bottle they have to take a psychological exam and be licensed as well as having to pay big bucks for insurance. In another case, students tried to poison their teacher with hand sanitizer...yup..rubbing alcohol....ban it. Ban all hand sanitizer before it is too late!

Now that is fuck'in funny!!!