Should a CEO make 1700 times a worker's salary?
By louisehartmann
Most of us are still feeling the effects of a struggling economy, but the corporate elite and the Wall Street banksters are doing better than ever. Many corporations have seen record profits in recent years, which have fueled buying sprees on Wall Street, pushing the DOW Jones to it's all-time high. But, the income gap between workers and CEOs, which has gone up almost 20% since 2009, shows that all that profit is going straight to the top.
This is exactly why many people don't feel the effects of the modest economic recovery - because this recovery is not our recovery – all the gains are going directly to the top 1%. And this is why corporations are actively fighting the part of the Dodd-Frank act, that directs corporations to report the income differential between workers and CEOs. In 1960, the average CEO was paid about 40 times as much as the average worker. By 1990, CEOs were raking in over 100 times the amount that workers received. And by 2011, some corporate executives – like the one who works for JC Penny's – were making more than 1700 times the salary of an average worker.
A Bloomberg analysis indicates that everyday employees are the only ones who are not benefiting from the historic profits seen since the 2008 economic meltdown. This is not only unacceptable, but it's undesirable – without a broad, inclusive economic base, long-term economic growth is impossible. It's time to stop the economic locusts who are sucking every last bit of profit out of our economy for the benefit of themselves alone.
Dodd-Frank is forcing the oligarchs to disclose the income disparity, now let's start working to correct it. Let's implement a Wall Street transaction tax, set limits on executive pay, and start taxing those who are obsessed with hoarding money.
Comments
#2
It's May Day! MAY DAY - MAY DAY - MAY DAY - the ship of state is sinking!
Well, there is another company to boycott..JC PENNEY! Let's make the capitalist pigs squeal...not with delite...but in agony! Just like pigs squeal when they are castrated..yes, I knew someone who had a pig farm, when I was a kid, and assisted once in castrating little pigs.
viva la revolucion! People are out demonstrating all over the world today...now if they can only do unto the capitalist pigs what the capitalist pigs have done to other countries that refused to be their useful idiots...boycott, boycott, boycott! Start with JC PENNY!
#3
stonesphear: Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Obama is far from being a communist...he's very much a capitalist out slopping the pigs. Wouldn't it be nice, though, if he castrated them all? But castrating fully grown hogs is not an easy job. You gotta tie them down first. That would be a pleasant surprise!
#4
The Twain Report
All The News That Mark Twain Says He Would Report If He Was Alive Today
5-01-2013
In Kentucky the other day, a five year old boy was given a rifle for a present. He then shot and killed his three year old sister.
At a press conference around the cracker barrel at the general store, the boy's uncle was asked how the family had responded to the killing. He said, "Boy howdy, I can tell you one young man who did not get a second helping of apple pie after dinner that day! And I myself told him, 'Boy, when we say keep it in the family, we're talkin' about sex, not about shootin' each other. Here, get your gun and we'll take a walk around the neighborhood. I'll show you the people you can shoot."
The National Rifle Association sent the boy a free subscription to American Rifleman, and NRA president Wayne LaPierre visited the family, saying, "Son, it's obvious you have a bright and shining future ahead of you, and we at the NRA want to help you in any way we can. You want an assault gun and fifty pounds of ammo, just say the word and I'll dip into my discretionary fund and buy them for you. Of course, after you are old enough to read you might consider taking a gun safety course, but there will be plenty of time for that later. Here, have a complimentary box of hollow-point ammo and a drink of whiskey."
In our weekly seance at Twain Report Headquarters in a heavily fortified bunker under a homeless shelter in Seattle, Mr. Twain possessed the body of our janitor and said, "This puts me in mind of the not-infrequent occasions on which I was chased out of town at gunpoint over stories I published in newspapers. I particularly favored my story about how the local church ladies were holding a bake sale with the proceeds going to support the noble cause of inter-racial marriage."
Mr. LaPierre responded, "Why yes, Mr. Twain, I believe that my grand-daddy himself shot at you about that one. I loved my grand-daddy."
Pulling out a gun, Mr. LaPierre said, "Would you mind if I took at few shots at you right now, just for old times sake?"
At which point the Twain Report janitor ripped off his fake sideburns and white hat, and yelled, "Hey, I was just pretending to be possessed by that Twain cobron! I'm a lifetime member of the NRA! I was on the death squads in Peru!"
See tomorrow's edition for a truly embarrassing story on how the entire staff of the renowned Twain Report was hoaxed by an illiterate illegal immigrant right-wing mole.
#5
Funny to hear the name of my former Rep. Scott Garrett's name (R-NJ-5) come up in the NYT article about derivative speculation. I was redistricted out of the district but I was stuck with the idiot do-nothing for about 10 years.
Scott Garrett is one of those people you never hear from except when he wants your vote, and once or twice a year when he gets on an AM radio "news" to complain about federal spending. What does he actually do for a living? I never knew. I never met anyone who knew. Some people even ask who he is after they tell me they love Fox News Channel and hate government. But the NYT article sums up what I always suspected about Garrett.
Unfortunately, Garrett has probably figured out that all the genuises out here who don't know his name or what he is, will vote for him if he just says he hates abortion like they do. Not everyone is like that, of course, but there are probably just enough to tip an election.
#6
"If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." And Jesus sent them forth running in fear of his righteousness into their industrialized herd of swine and at this the hapless swine stampeded and drowned in the nearby waters. Problem solved, So much for that outbreak of Swine Flue long ago .
#7
Thank you Stonesphear for mentioning Jesus and the swine! Joseph Atwill wrote a book and talks about that...among other things.
Quote some long lost blog on Joseph Atwill's book Caesar's Messiah:..on the parallels of Jesus, and other stories in the New Testament, to Titus and the Romans....
Atwill offers the case of the Gadarene demoniac as one example [of a parallel]. Jesus goes to Gadara and orders "Legion" out of the man. The Legion of demons enters a group of two thousand swine, who then plunge into the sea and drown. Forty years later, Titus leads a campaign in the same area and drives two thousand Jewish rebels to drown in the sea. He notes that in Josephus's account of all that is taken when the Romans plunder Gadara, "No swine are mentioned."
This, he declares, is because the "Swine" are actually the Jewish Rebels. Of course, if there were a Real Jesus, who really did drive two thousand swine into the sea, there simply might not be any pigs left in the region.
Consider also that War of the Jews contains an account of a woman, Mary the Daughter of Eleazar/Lazarus, who, during the siege of Jerusalem roasts and devours her own son. This is held in comparison to Jesus, son of Mary, instituting the Last Supper with the command to eat his own flesh and blood.
Atwill asserts that Jesus' supposed ministry exactly mirrors the campaign of Titus in War of the Jews, and that the record of the former is meant to be a satire of the latter, a mockery of the messianic Jews - I think.
He also argues that the prophecies of the NT were actually invented by Josephus to be "predicted," and then "fulfilled" by Titus in the War of the Jews. The prophecy that (paraphrasing here) Jerusalem would be destroyed in one generation (40 years) is of course fulfilled by Titus.
According to Atwill, the Romans' solution to these problems was to create a special kind of post-war propaganda. They called it in Greek evangelion, a technical term meaning "good news of military victory." In English, it is translated as "gospel." The name is in fact ironic humor: the Romans were amusing themselves with the notion of making the Jews accept, as the actions of the Messiah Jesus, what were in fact literary echoes of the very battles in which the Romans had defeated the Jews' armies. A further joke was buried in unmistakable parallels between the life of Jesus and that of Titus: in worshiping Jesus, the Jews who adopted Christianity, as it came to be called, were in fact hailing the Emperor of their conquerors as god.
Professor Robert Eisenman of California State University describes Atwill's research as rendering contemporary Christian scholarship so challenged that it is now "looking into the abyss". It is worth noting, in this regard, that the general scholarly consensus that there was a historical, Jewish Jesus is itself largely a recent historical idea, traceable to Abraham Geiger in the 1860's. He persuaded scholars that the Gospels were an account of a historical Jewish Jesus, a typical Pharisee of his day. Since then this view, and with it the notion of Christianity as a development of Judaism, has become the dominant paradigm in Christianity. However, as the new discoveries in Caesar's Messiah make clear, this is not just misleading, but a dangerous concession to a false system of belief. The Romans created this new religion deliberately to humiliate the Jews and to keep them in submission. For contemporary Jewish scholars to collude with this Roman literary invention, and to even pretend that this fictional character had historic reality, is the height of irony.
It is one thing for Christians to use works of literature as their sacred documents. It is quite another for them to continue using what have now been discovered to be deliberate Roman fakes about a non existent Messiah.
but you can watch video interviews of Joseph Atwill on his book here:
http://www.rodephemet.org/welcome.html
#8
And I wonder where all those 2000 "swine" came from...as pork is prohibited in the diets of both Jews and Muslilms. So, in using "swine", it is a very insulting symbol to call Jewish rebels "swine".
#9
The income disparity between workers and the executives is offensive. Nowhere else in the world does this kind of pay disparity exist. This is why I am all for a return to the personal tax rate of 70% that Reagan eliminated as the same time he created a massive federal deficit.
Having said that, one thing I have lenred from working in a country that has a lot of union control is that the workers are not nearly as productive as those in states where job security is non existent. So that begs the question of whether "workers rights" realy serves an economy versus the drive of capitalism. I am a capitalist, but with strong socialist tendencies in that the greater benefit of the society serves to preserve, protect and encourage a healthy existence.
Our system is fundamentally broken and in 20 years the US will have experienced the greatest collapse of modern history. We are reliving the rise and fall of Rome, albeit in a more compressed timescale.
#10
I sympathize with the pigs . It wasn't their fault. Left to their own devices they would have dispersed naturally and still provided good meat to eat. Unfortunately they were rounded up and enclosed to the point they were a threat to public health with no place else to go upon being terrorized by the confrontation between Jesus , Matthew ( and most likely a few able bodied seamen) and the greedy pig eating, pig farming, pig scum involved in stepping over dead diseased pigs to slaughter the piglets for delectable meat to the severe objections of the sows and bores. Consequently the hapless pigs fled in terror to their death in reaction to the terror occurring in their midst. Pigs and Humans are susceptible to transferring disease from one to the other . Jesus was a physician , I suspect that this biological similarity and susceptibility is what inspired the Jews to ban pork from their diet in the first place. Go figure. In so far as calling "Jewish rebels" swine ? You lost me.
#11
The owners of the corporation ( which ties them to the private property rights on the earnings of their productive capital and workers) elect and/or appoint a Board of Directors, who in turn hire a CEO at an agreed compensation rate. The CEO in turn sets the salary and wage levels of everyone else below him or her.
The reality is that because corporate America is owned narrowly by a relative few individuals (90 percent of the securities are owned by less than 10 percent of the population, which means that a large majority of the population––essentially everyone who presently does not possess significant productive capital assets––is not an OWNER)
The impact of expanding and broadening ownership of FUTURE productive capital assets (held by our corporations) would be beneficial in creating a more democratic structure of corporate ownership whereby income differences are far less unjust.
As corporation become more democratic they can operate under the principles of Justice-Base Management.
What Is Justice-Based Management?
Justice-Based ManagementSM (JBMSM) is a leadership philosophy and management system that applies universal principles of economic and social justice within business organizations. The ultimate purpose of JBMSM is to create and sustain ownership cultures that enhance the dignity and development of every member of the company, and to economically empower each person as an owner and worker.
JBMSM promotes a company’s long-term profitability within the global marketplace by enabling all worker-owners to serve and provide higher value to the customer. JBMSM connects every worker’s self-interest to the bottom-line and long-term success of the company.
The JBMSM process builds upon a written articulation of the philosophy and principles of the company’s leader (typically the CEO or chairman of the board) and leadership core group, in terms of universal principles and core values of the company. JBMSM proceeds in stages to build a consensus upon these fundamental shared values and vision of the company within each work area of the company.
These articulated values provide the foundation for enhancing the productiveness of workers and company profitability, and include such structures as employee-monitored economic incentive programs, participation and governance structures, two-way communications and accountability systems, conflict management systems and future planning and renewal programs.
The ESOP and Justice-Based ManagementSM
One of the main components of JBMSM is the "empowerment ESOP ." While the employee stock ownership plan (ESOP) was originally invented as a means for providing working people with access to capital credit to become owners of corporate equity, most ESOPs are set up as just another employee benefit plan or tax gimmick, or as an employee share accumulation plan (“ESAP”). Most ESOPs today are not designed to treat worker-owners as first-class shareholders. The “empowerment ESOP,” on the other hand, is designed to encourage workers to assume the responsibilities and risks, as well as the full rights, rewards and powers, of co-ownership.
Furthermore, all academic and government studies to date have concluded that ESOPs alone are not enough to affect individual and corporate performance. Within a JBMSM system, in combination with a regular gainsharing program tied to bottom-line profits, and structured systems of participatory management, the empowerment ESOP stimulates everyone in the company to think and act like entrepreneurs and owners.
Balancing Moral Values and Material Value
Justice-Based ManagementSM offers an ethical framework for succeeding in business. JBM balances moral values (treating people with fairness and dignity) with material value (increasing a company's productiveness and profits while enriching all members of a productive enterprise). JBM's three basic operating principles are:
1. Build the organization on shared ethical values—starting with respect for the dignity and worth of each person (employee, customer and supplier)—that promote the development and empowerment of every member of the group.
2. Succeed in the marketplace by delivering maximum value (higher quality at lower prices) to the customer.
3. Reward people commensurate with the value they contribute to the company—as individuals and as a team.
Justice-Based ManagementSM is guided by the concept of social justice, as articulated by the late social philosopher William Ferree, SM. Social justice involves the structuring of social organizations or institutions (including business corporations) to promote and develop the full potential of every member.
JBM also embeds within an ownership culture the three principles of economic justice defined by the late lawyer-economist Louis Kelso and philosopher Mortimer Adler: (1) “participative justice,” or the right to the means and opportunity to participate in the economic process as an owner as well as a worker; (2) “distributive justice,” or the right to the full, market-determined stream of income from one’s labor and capital contributions; and (3) “harmony” (or social justice), or the right and responsibility of each person to work in an organized way with others to correct the “social order” or institution when the principles of participative or distributive justice are being violated or blocked.
Within JBMSM the principles of social and economic justice provide a logical framework for defining “fairness” and structuring the diffusion of power within the corporation.
Structuring Ownership Participation
JBM is designed to systematize and institutionalize shared rights, responsibilities, risks and rewards within all company operational and governance structures involving:
- Corporate values and vision
- Leadership development and succession
- Corporate governance and future planning
- Operations (policies and procedures) and hardship sharing policies
- Communications and information sharing
- Training and education
- Pay and rewards
- Grievances and adjudication
A well-designed Justice-Based ManagementSM system sharpens and crystallizes the leader's philosophy around “universal” principles, providing a solid foundation for a corporate culture that enables people to internalize these guiding principles. JBMSM generates organizational synergy by connecting each worker-owner to the financial tools of ownership (i.e. ESOP and profit sharing), participative management systems, and a defined share of power in the governance of the organization. This in turn enables people to make better decisions, discipline their own behavior, and work together more effectively and cooperatively—because it is truly in their self-interest to do so.
#12
I think we are beating a dead horse when we debate Republican VS Democrat. Once upon a time, the Dems may have not supported Regan economics, but today they seem to be in the same Neo-Conservative ball park as the Republicans. Sure, on some domestic issues, like gun control, a woman's right to choose, gay rights, and illegal immigration, the Democrats give a lot of lip service to these issues.
However, when it comes to our foreign policy, they are amazingly silent. Even when Obama says he feels Guantanamo should be closed, he blames Congress for this. In fact, he could issue a Presidential directive and override Congress, the same way Bush did. Whenever Bush wanted something, and Congress did not antie up (which was seldom) he simply took it by issuing one of his many Presidential decrees. It seems that Obama lacks the will that Bush had.
When you look at the over-all direction the country has been taken to, it is a fact that more of the Republican agenda has taken over, rather than anything liberal or progressive. That’s what makes the Democrats such hypocrites, especially when they claim to be in opposition to anything the Republicans want. Both parties wear the American flag on their lapel, and both are afraid (especially the Democrats) if they appear soft on the war on terror, or the defense budget. It’s all such a nauseating dog and pony show, and we are getting nothing more than smoke and mirrors when it comes to what is really going on behind the scenes.
#13
Screening of: Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus--the video documentary....
May 7, 2013
Historic Fellowship Hall
Unitarian Universalists
1924 Cedar Street
Berkeley, CA 94709
phone: 805 963-6090
BERKELEY, CA SCREENING:
7:00pm Suggested donations: $5-$10
Q & A with Director Fritz Heede afterwards
Organized by Vic Sadot -
vic.bfuu.sjc@gmail.com
or---you can just watch the film here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RybZ0Tp5KU
A very interesting history lesson here!
#14
Palindromedary ~ Today at work I was thinking about that song we discussed last night, "I Blew Up The United States," by WasNotWas and Boneshakers, and that word in the lyrics you found that I thought was different than in the song; as well as, your comments about it.
If the word is indeed "face" than you would surely be right about the song suggesting a Manchurian Candidate type influence on the action. Purely man-made influence. However, there are inconsistencies to that interpretation I need to address.
I believe the original intent was "fates". As you probably know "The Furies" and "The Fates" were spiritual powers created in ancient Greek mythology from the blood of Ouranos. They represent a universal supernatural power that supersedes even the power of the Gods of Olympus. However, their influences are strictly controlled by the rules of Divine Redemption. They are a form of Karma, The Holy Spirit, The Great Spirit, or Yin and Yang as expressed by other culture's folklore and mythology.
In the song, I don't believe the interpretation was to describe the actions of a lone nut, a Manchurian Candidate, a brainwashed patsy, or a misled ideologue. Because the action is the song was the total destruction of the United States and not an indiscriminate part of it, we must assume that whether the individual was inspired by a supernatural influence or a personal psychosis, that individual was responding to a conceived notion that they were acting on behalf of a cosmic consciousness.
In the past, you and I, have discussed the presence of demons in the Bible and history as well as my theory of psychology today. Today, many people who are diagnosed with psychosis of one form or another do indeed claim to hear voices in their head. The lead composer of The Beach Boys is one example. Despite his rare abilities to compose happy music he has been tormented his entire life hearing evil voices and commands from unknown sources or reasons. Nothing modern medicine has done has been able to help this man.
Therefore it is logical to imagine a scenario where someone commits a horrific deed--as described in that song--and has had the suggestion placed in there minds independent of any Government Black Op. The source of that suggestion is indeed a mystery and the subject of lengthy conjecture I don't want to get into now. Suffice to say, it is not a simple button down answer to this question. No evidence exists to prove either theory.
For this long winded reason, and one other, I conclude that the correct, original lyric in the song must be "fates." The other more simple reason is that "fates" rhymes with States better than "face." LOL
Finally, if you got a kick out of that song, you would really love, "Throwing Stones", by the Grateful Dead. In my opinion, "Throwing Stones" is the ultimate anti-military anthem/Redemption song I've ever heard. I loved it so much I learned to play and sing it--which I did on video at a birthday party of mine a couple of years ago. Check out the original version on youtube and check out the lyrics, I think you'd dig it too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WninWFtO0Gg
Don't bother looking for the video of me singing it, I never posted it. (Need more rehearsal ;-)
BTW Palindromedary, I know you don't believe in Prophecy but I'm sure you believe in coincidence. Some us believe Jerry was a very Great Prophet. On the day his keyboardist, Brent Mydland died he scheduled this video Brent wrote called, "Just A Little Light." It premiered on the day of his shocking death on public TV. I remember watching how shocked the pledge commentators were after seeing it. We all were! Share the shock if you will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Q7CgBxRI4
DAM
#15
The reality that we all must face is that a business organization can pay its employees whatever its officers want to pay them. Even if the organization is a public stock company, the stockholders are virtually powerless to control this. This is all about capitalism. Perhaps these quotes can sum up the issue about unethical and outragious CEO salaries.
“The hand that gives is among the hand that takes. Money has no fatherland, financiers are without patriotism and without decency, their sole object is gain.” - Napoleon Bonaparte
"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert, to fleece the people." - -Abraham Lincoln
“Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class.” - Al Capone
One thing for sure, no one can deny that Mr. Capone was a capitalist of the highest degree! I wouldn't be surprised to find his portrait in the offices of many of our fine, well-paid, hard fighting CEO's!! : )
#16
"Should a CEO make 1700 times a worker's salary?" Only if he does 1700 times more work, which isn't going to happen. I think 17 times more is ample generosity. But even that much still requires a lot of pretending by the workers that one self- puffed person is worth 17 times more than each one of them.
Speaking of those who are obsessed with hoarding money, I recently finished reading a couple of history books with some coincidental overlap. One was on Cleopatra and the other was Gregory of Tours, a history of the Franks. In the Cleopatra bio it was mentioned that as Octavius' general, Agrippa, who led the Roman forces, closed in on the walls of Alexandria, Cleopatra had workers erect a domelike tomb for her. Before she entered the no windows and no doors structure, she ordered workers to place all of the royal treasure in it. Priceless mounds of gold, art objects, ivory, precious stones, etc. Basically she wanted all of the wealth of Egypt stored in this mausoleum that she planned on being lowered into even before her suicide.
In the Gregory of Tours book I came across a reference to Justin II, a sixth century Byzantine emperor. Gregory describing Justin II: "He was the most avaricious of men, giving nothing to the poor and bleeding his people dry. His cupidity was so great that he ordered iron coffers to be made and in them he amassed his wealth in gold coin. Not long afterwards he went insane and had to have Tiberius co-opted as Caesar to protect his provinces."
The moral of the story, I guess in a superficial way one could state the obvious, you can't really take it with you when you go, and the untreated obsession with wealth will eventually lead to insanity. But I have to side with Jesus on this one, Jesus disapproved of wealth because he thought it was wrong for some people to live in wasteful luxury while others starved...plain and simple!
Why do the same greedy and power hungry souls, only the names seem to change, continue to frequent, haunt, and torment, the vast majority of we the people, who simply want to live and love in peace, and die in peace?
#17
DAnneMarc, Hey I checked out the Boneshakers, I thought their soulful sound kind of reminded me of Curtis Mayfield.
#18
It all looks good to me!
#19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftv0m3AAFWA
If the tax rate was returned to what it was at 70% it appears that the CEO's wouldn't be so intent on the higher % their income is now compared to workers. A regulation perhaps that the CEO pay shouldn't exceed a certan percentate of the lowest paid worker? Or perhaps have congress members have their pay based on 3 or 4 times the minimum wage? I bet the minimum wage would go up then!
#20
2950-10K ~ Thanks Buddy! Now check out Jerry and the gang and give me your IMHO. Thanks again!
#21
DAnnemarc: Sorry, man, just not into listening to songs by anyone. Can't understand the words! But I once learned now to play Quasi Una Fantasia on the piano. And since, I've played all kinds of music on my trumpet. Mariachi, Mariachi man....I wanna be... a Mariachi man. Ole!
#22
I can see from everyone's lack of response to my previous post that they may be in shock. Good for you! This is part of the recovery we need! Here are two other links that all may benefit from to strenghthen the spirit. Do not thank me! Thank God; and, The Grateful Dead:
Uncle John's Band ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP657ivCzOM
Estimated Prophet ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlhvNbadF8
There is more where that came from. Forgive me! I can only spoon feed a little bit at a time. This is quite a bit for one day! When all feel well with this--there is more! Happy Cinco de Mayo to all. Viva la Revolucion! a todos!!
Manana va a estar una Nuevo Dia, Amigos!! Hasta Luego!
BUENOS NOCHES. AMIGOS!!
#23
DAnnemarc: Yin Yang...that's a symbol I make in my little dish of Siracha hot sauce and Hoisin sauce whenever I eat at a Vietnamese Restaurant. Love their white meat chicken noodle soup! I like to dip my chicken in the sauce.
#24
The fact that there is a 1% means America has become a dictatorship.
There are people that rule you.
You call it what you want. It is what it is.
#25
Palindromedary ~ Spiracha and Hoisin sauce are wonderful condiments. However, they are better ingredients made in your own kitchen. So are shitake mushrooms, soy sauce, chopped garlic, and freshly ground ginger root. Not to mention hot chili and garlic sauce; Hell the chinese stores are full of healthy and delicious alternatives. One only needs the time and desire to learn them. GOOD LUCK, MY DEAR FRIEND!!
I can't keep my eyes open anymore. Talk to you tomorrow!
DAM
#26
Thom,
Again I could not agree with you more and would only wish that we could see a grassroots movement from the working 95% of our citizens. The issue at hand is how do we mobilize working American's, when using that phrase will give amunition to the 1 percenters to call this a socialist movement therefore losing a great portion of our religious right working class.
Also as you know organizations that represented workers before the immigration from the NE and Rust Belt to the solid right to work states in the southern regions of our country namely the unions do not have the numbers to amass the grassroot.
We also need to underestand that issues such as gun control wihile important will also alienate a lot of working American's to vote their own economic benefit. This issue just like abortion, church and state, and the evangilical right will make it very difficult to gain majorities in Fedral and Stae House of Representation.
Until then, the Wal Mart family, the Koch brother and Amway families of our country who have the dollars to defend there right to continue operating under the Reagan trinkle down economy will be able to control enough in Congress (even Democratic members) and of course their hold on a majority of our State governments to push their agenda.
I wish I had an answer, but I don't. I guess the best bet we have is to some how win the off year elections of 2014 and gain a filabuster proof Seante with a 65% plus majority in the House to be able to make Dodd-Frank stronger, increase stimulus investments in our county's infrastructure, expand health care for all, protect social security and to finally make college education more affordable.
That in itself means that the Democratic Party must utilize the Obama Machine, that President Obama himself will need to directly be involved in these elections in order to gain political control not only in the Federal system but to start to turn the State governments from red, to purple in 2014 to blue come 2016 if the Democratic Party can offer the nation a strong candidate like Secretary of State Clinton.
We need to be able to state the goal, invision the plan, spell out the pathway, and go to work from both the top down and the bottom up. Our Nation cannot afford another 30 years moving in the direction we have been moving since 1980's.
Keep on presenting the views, we are just waiting for the leadership to rally the working American's.
JND
#27
Quote 2950-10k:
But I have to side with Jesus on this one, Jesus disapproved of wealth because he thought it was wrong for some people to live in wasteful luxury while others starved...plain and simple!
Is that why he said "give unto Caesar, what belongs to Caesar" ..or something like that. Is that why he said not to rebel against your master? Is that why he was relatively pacifistic?
Those are all interesting topics you mentioned and I have been rereading Joseph Atwill's Caesar's Messiah and watching that video on you tube that I just mentioned earlier.
this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RybZ0Tp5KU
I don't think many people will still believe that there really was a historical Jesus after they watch that video. Many religious scholars..like Robert Eisenman..doesn't even seem to me to believe in a historical Jesus. It's been quite a while since I read Eisenman's book "James, the Brother of Jesus"..but I still have the book.
Josephus created the mythical image of a pacifistic Jesus (who was really mirroring Titus). The "son of god" was Titus, the son of Emperor Vespasian (who was deified by the Roman Senate when Vespasian died and Titus became Emperor). It was about this time that the gospels were written.
The number of parallels to the gospel Jesus and Titus is so convincing that many biblical scholars believe that Jesus was made up as an inside joke and also a way to get the Jews (some of them anyway) to worship the Roman Emperors and not realize it. It also helped to pacify what had always been a militaristic, messianic, rebellious attitude against the Romans.
The only 1st century literature that has survived, The Dead Sea Scrolls, shows that the messianic Jews were not pacifistic but militaristic. The Romans had done a pretty good job destroying all the other evidence about how the messianic Jews were. But they kept one version of the Jewish Scrolls, after destroying all the rest, as a reference that Josephus was given by Titus to use to create the new religion.
The Sicarii were stabbing Roman soldiers in the backs, with their curved daggers, in crowded market squares. The Romans knew that they had to find a way to pacify the militaristic Jews so they invented a pacifistic savior (messiah--Christ). And their Paganized Jewish religion resulted a Christianity that carried on the ability of church's ability to control the minds of people to this day.
Incidentally, if you want to see the caves that Josephus and his 40 men were held up in before being captured by the Romans (although it was just Josephus and one other man who chickened out on killing each other after all the other men killed each other)..then check out these coordinates on Google Earth:
32deg 49min 52.07sec N and 35deg 16min 39.41sec E
but just type in: Tel Yodfat, Israel
Tel Yodfat is just 1/2 mile southeast of the town of Yodfat.
There is a 360 degree photo of a musical group performing inside the cave. The musical group's name is The Greatful Dead...just kidding..the real name of the group is Diwan Saz...very Middle East, of course. You can also hear them play if you search for them on youtube which shows the group inside the cave playing while the cave is packed with audience. I'm sure the ghost of Josephus would be very well entertained in that cave.
#28
excerpts of the Video:
The Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) were the only piece of ancient Jewish literature from the 1st Century AD (or CE)
The characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) were militaristic and fundamentalists. This movement wanted to push the Romans out of Israel. The characters in the the bible were different. They were pacifistic, they are "turning the other cheek", they are "giving unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar". How did a movement like Christianity come to exist in a region that was occupied by Roman soldiers and had Jewish Zealots within it that were going to push these Romans out? How was that possible?
Joseph Atwill did a side by side study of the New Testament and the Wars of the Jews, by Josephus who was a court historian, who wrote about the wars between the Jews and the Romans in the 1st century. While reading the works, side by side, he noticed an amazing connection between them. Certain events from the ministry of Jesus, in the bible, seemed to closely parallel the episodes of the military campaigns of Titus Flavius, whose events took place about 40 years after the events in the bible. Atwill's discovery is that Christianity has been created, or invented, by the Flavians and they left us documents to prove it.
Some photos of the Tel Yodfat caves.
http://golem.ws/yodfat/stills/content/_ALP4140_Edit_large.html
http://golem.ws/yodfat/stills/content/_ALP4200_large.html
http://golem.ws/yodfat/stills/content/_ALP4201_large.html
http://golem.ws/yodfat/stills/content/_ALP4208_large.html
http://golem.ws/yodfat/stills/content/_ALP4302_large.html
#29
No, CEOs should not make 1700 times of their workers. That is money siphoned off from providing benefits and pensions and paying workers decently--workers whose labor produces and whose wallet purchases. That is money siphoned off from doing right by its customers and venders and community. That is money siphoned off from improving infrastructure or providing training and from NOT paying their FAIR SHARE of taxes.... This harms/has harmed our economy.
Has anyone ever read the bios of board of directors of large companies? They have no more education and little more experience (or NONE in the business they represent and suck money from) than most college graduates today--so they are NOT invaluable--and they get even more money when they FAIL.
The realities of capitalism are so far out of whack from terms like "free market," "open competition," and "entrepreneurship." Currently, in my state, the big casinos are trying to drive out the Internet Cafes. The casinos want to rid themselves of competition. I don't gamble myself but I wonder why shouldn't some entrepreneur be able to jump in the game and "compete" in the "free market" against the "big guys"?
#30
Yes it is hard to justify the huge pay and bonuses at the top level when the company does not do well.
Most of you here are missing one big point. The good paying upper middle class jobs, for the last 20 years, have been shipped over seas! And that is a big factor in the spread in the pay rates.
Hershey went to Mexaco. 1. lower pay rates 2. lower tax rates. AND THE BIG # 3. that no one talks about, they can buy sugar on the world market. U.S. sugar is protected by tariffs.
#31
Arithmetic average is not a good measure for a higly skewed distribution. My income and Bill Gates incomes average to a meaningless number. For skewed distributiions it id better to use rhe median, midpoint value od the ordered list.
#32
Wall Street transaction tax; yes, set limits on executive pay; no…
My argument here, lightly, and admittedly, given with a shallow presentation
Humans have the long standing character to corrupt. Clearly exampled in the previous newly evolved media/journalist/politics. Those that wind up at the high end of the big money have revealed themselves as very “poor” in the sense of investors that need to move the American society in what is the so called the best cultural direction as “The right thing to do.” The contemporary Journalist on cable and satellite is the best performers leaning forward loudly proclaiming no spin and Blitzing three sixty. CNN having that Nazi type word leaning like jack hammer breaking news all the time.
Yes, clearly media has covered up history, and even continued day to day events to protect what Thom calls the plurality in justice. CEO’s at the top formally write something down on paper which is a check of so called money exchanged for screwing up. Of course this perpetuates the judicial system in moderate quick fix many known as the “top layered legal fence”. All which is the opposite of the same term that criminals use at the low end that openly steal and “fence” whatever they have.
Many could go into hours of discussion about the disparity of such to educate and bring the civic electorate into an understanding of what is really happening. But the kicker is all these journalists should by law and with banner in view with good size font declare what they have to say after the next commercial could lead and lean forward likely would require them to plead the Fifth Amendment. Or, because after contract water bottle sipping thousands of times in round robin news telecasts that reminds journalist of their pay check admit they love what they are doing. Shaming scamming the public.
#33
As my foriegn friend once asked me how many monies commissions do we have and how do they check and balance fairness,
Answer THEY DONT
#34
Atwill may be right or he may be wrong.
The first seven Ecumenical Councils, recognised by both the eastern and western branches ofChalcedonian Christianity, were convoked by Christian Roman Emperors, who also enforced the decisions of those councils within the state church of the Roman Empire.
Decisions, Decisions. LOL.
#35
Consider the following about money: Buddha said, "Cherish your poverty". In Matt 10:9, Christ says, ”Do not possess gold nor silver, nor money in you purses.” In Luke 6:24, He says, “Woe to you who are rich.” Mark 18:25, “It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven”. Matt 25:40 states, “And the king answering shall say to them: Amen, I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these, the least of my brethren, you did it to me”. What are these actions, blessed, holy and sacred to Christ? Feed the hungry, give drink to those who thirst, clothe the naked, comfort the sick and visit the imprisoned. Do the Republicans work to make life easier for these people or to increase their desperation and need? They work to inhibit, to suppress, to tread more heavily on the downtrodden, to increase their misery. The Republicans are not blessed by God, nor do they do God’s work; they are condemned, voices wailing and teeth-gnashing, by Christ Himself. Acoording to the New Testament, which they say they believe, as long as their words and actions contravene God’s words, they are condemned and damned to spend Eternity roasting in Hell, despite their transvaginal probe pumping, chest thumping, Bible beating, scripture screaming pulpit pounding. <antigoldrush.com>
#36
IntermeDx -- why look at other countries for the correlation between union control and productivity? In the US in the 50's union participation was around 35% and is now at 7%. I thought the US productivity has remained relative constant. Just a note if you plan deeper analysis. For any measure of cause (union control) and effect (productivity) we always have to keep in mind the lag time of economics, which on average is 7 years.
On the other hand using productivity as a metric for an ecomony is fraught with peril; even worse than the GDP by itself. I think a better metric for the economy is that given by Larry Beinhart. He says we should look at the combination of the DOW, the GDP, the number of jobs created and the median wage (inflation adjusted). The combination is not a nice polynomial but rather that all 4 indicators should be positive. This non-continuous metric seems to measure what Adam Smith was describing. The thing that really makes it a valid metric is that Larry is not an economist.
#37
Timothy Gilmore: And all those phrases would have been very convenient to the Roman Empire in their partially successful plot to get the Jews conquered not only militarily but in their minds as well.
The Romans wanted the Jews, and all their other "subjects" to worship their Emperors (instead of an invisible myth in the sky) and stop being such a pain-in-the-butt messianic militarists...to stop rebelling and "give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "do not rebel against your masters"...to paraphrase quotes from the bible.
Our modern day Roman Emperors want the same thing...to completely rule over us...for us to "give unto the ruling class what they believe belongs to them"...everything. So, as long as believers continue to believe that they will get their just rewards in heaven, the ruling elite gets what really matters in this world...all the gold..opulence...power..comfort...security...and even happiness. Because with well being, comfort and security usually comes much more happiness than those who are struggling to survive. Everyone else, the believers, are left a terrible struggle to survive in the midst of the greedy ruling elite.
The militaristic messianic Jews successfully drove the Romans out in 66AD..which showed that they could do it...but their freedom didn't last long because the Romans came back in and laid siege to Jerusalem after destroying Galilee and several other towns, then destroyed the temple (in 70AD), and destroyed all copies of the Jewish literature in Judea except the one that Titus gave to Josephus to use in creating the new Christian religion. The other surviving literature of the 1st century AD, the Dead Sea Scrolls, gave a more accurate picture of what Judea was like in those days. No mention of Jesus, of course, and it was all messianic and militarist hatred of the Romans. There were no movements in the DSS depicting peaceniks roaming around the countryside telling people they had to "turn the other cheek"..or "do unto others as you expect others to do unto you". That is just what the Romans wanted..for the Jews to turn the other cheek and accept their submission to Rome.
The Romans realized that they needed to prevent future rebellions by conquering the minds of the Jews. They partially succeeded when they took the wind out of messianic rebellion by inventing the peace-preaching, pacifist, Jesus, which was the beginnings of the Christian church.
Those sly devils, the Romans, knew how to play with people's minds...a real psyops sleight of hand. Today's Romans, the ruling elite, use the same psychological propaganda to rule over people's minds. When you control people's minds, you control the people. It is slavery of another color. A variegated hodgepodge of confusion purposely propagated down the centuries by the ruling elite to control the masses.
While the ruling elite propaganda propagates ideas like "a rich man has as much chance of going to heaven as a camel going through the eye of a needle". Propagandized believers pick up on those catchy metaphors and similes thinking they have something over on the rich but in reality the rich are laughing at you...all the way to their offshore banks. They know, that in the end, we all merely rot away and there is no such thing as heaven or hell, devils or gods, no soles except in the minds of people who have been proselytized and propagandized into believing that they exist. Yes, many of the ruling elite will put on a pretense...maybe even some actually believe their own nonsense to an extent...so that they can help to continue the great lie..that has become so useful to those ruling elite that hide behind the skirts of the church.
Did not Pope Leo X say "It has served us well, this myth of Christ"? Christianity, as initially invented by Josephus Bar Mathias who became Josephus Flavian, after he became a Jewish rebel turncoat and flattered Vespasian and Titus invented Jesus and early Christianity. Early Christianity was a Paganized Judaism modified to emphasize that it's followers should not rebel against the Romans. In fact, the Pagan Priests moved right into the Catholic Church becoming the new early Catholic Church fathers.
The real fools are the ones who are used by the ruling elite. The ruling elite live very well until they die...the masses live poorly until they die. And at death, they are all equal...both rotting away in a natural decaying process. There are no rewards after death. The rich want the poor to believe that they don't have to rebel against the rich because they will get their rewards in heaven...or 67 virgins... or... whatever. It's all just pure nonsense and fiction to keep you from rebelling and keeping the ruling elite wealthy and powerful.
#38
Yo, Pal- Interesting hypothesis. I understand Roman/Judaic history much differently. Where did you get the info you disseminate in re Romans inventing Xtianity? In my prior statement, I meant to point out the hypocrisy of the Republicanazi bible-beaters', compared to what they call, 'Sacred Scripture'. "The God Who Wasn't There", a DVD documentary, in its delineation of the Jesus myth, mentions none of that Roman stuff. The books, "The Dark Side of Christian History", "Jews, God and History" and "The Jesus Puzzle" don't mention it, either. If we got rid of money as a medium of exchange, we could structure a society more egalitarian. I discuss this in my book, "Ultimate Power, Unlimited Wealth", to which your attention is modestly directed. Josephus, a rebel turncoat and inventing Jesus?? Sorry, that one lead balloons it. Besides, didn't Marx pretty well flog the 'ubers vs unters' horse? Not that it isn't true; but couldn't we update the lingo and reasoning a little? For really horrifying material, watch "Jesus Camp". That should curl your toenails and give you nachtmares.
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Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. The curtain itself being the propaganda that the man in the white house is a fascist, communist, raciest, homo loving, baby killing moslem trying to take your guns away and the more money you give the man behind the curtain the better able he is to make all your dreams come true. TUDHF . The United Ditto Head Front.