Tis a shame you forgot to report the stats on those shooting which were people defending their lives and/or property. Those have substantially risen as our society has turn from a chicken little cowardly crowd, to an attitude more in line with the American Spirit of property ownership. There is also a lack of statistics on gang violence, which,if not a gun then a knife, if not a knife a club, etc. another missing statistic is police shootings which occur more frequently than any other shooting.

i am certain you have those statistics. But I question why you say nothing about them. The motive must certainly be commanded by your superiors to toe the narrative line. You are an intelligent man, and know 2-2=0 . Why then would you attempt to provide a statistic based post that only uses a small portion of the stats available?

Quote Aliceinwonderland:I agree that gun regulation is an important topic. But these discussions tend to go nowhere. I keep seeing and hearing the same old arguments over and over and over. The solution to this carnage seems pretty simple, but too few of us (even among the ranks of progressives) are willing to accept the obvious remedy: gun registration & licensing.

Aliceinwonderland ~ Very true! The least we can do is register and license gun ownership. Of course, I believe we should license people who want to have children as well. Nevertheless this alone will not solve the problem of mass shootings or gun violence for two important reasons.

First, unlike Australia that has Universal Health care, we do not offer public funding for mental health treatment. I just went over my new insurance policy for next year. It doesn't even cover mental health care. Can you imagine that? Cadillac Health Care Insurance that doesn't cover mental health care. All of these mass shooters have had noticeable and severe mental health problems. All of their family, friends, and acquaintances new about it yet they went untreated. Until we address the underlying problem of heath care in this country no gun control legislation alone will prevent gun violence in our country.

Secondly, we have a serious economic disparity in our inner cities that fuels crime and the black market. The black market in our cities has its own gun supply network that is not affected by gun legislation. All of the most seriously dangerous guns made are available quite readily on this network; and, who buys them? Criminals. All the statistics quoted by Thom are irrelevant unless all the gun victims mentioned above were injured with legally purchased guns only. They almost certainly weren't. Until we as a nation address the underlying problems of economic disparity and inner city crime we will never be able to prevent the vast majority of gun violence in our country.

DAnneMarc: I certainly agree with your last #5...at least, the last couple of paragraphs.

Quote Palindromedary:And how many of those people, in order to even get admitted to those hospitals in the first place, had to agree to sign a form that you agree to not seek a jury trial...you had to agree to a arbitration instead...and the arbitrator to be selected by the hospital?

Palindromedary ~ You are quite right. But what is worse is that mental health patients aren't even completely covered by many insurance plans anymore--let alone public funded programs. The system is completely kicking this group under the carpet. Why? Well lets face it, severe mental health issues require expensive treatment. They require a facilities and round the clock special treatment. The job isn't easy either--as you might know if you've ever cared for a person with a mental disorder. Imagine how difficult it is to care for an infant or child. Now multiply that by an unpredictable child mind in an adult body. You have to have the manpower to restrain as well as the professional presence to treat. Drugs can also be expensive and require round the clock monitoring. President Ronald Wilson (666) Reagan must have saved the a fortune by abandoning this public service. Consequently he opened a door to a realm of horrors through which we are only beginning to see the tip of the iceberg.

DAnneMarc: Wow! Thanks for that tip! No, as a matter of fact I have not yet seen today's show. I will certainly want to watch it. Yes, I know Carl Gibson of occupy.com has been quite active lately about that subject. Thanks again for the heads up.

Quote Palindromedary:Could that be an option in the US? I suspect there are more than a few people who would love to whack a doctor or nurse who were irresponsible and created an iatrogenic death of a loved one.

Palindromedary ~ Of course that is always an option. Don't you remember the 1971 film, "The Abominable Dr. Phibes?" Now that is a great Halloween film. In it, Vincent Price plays an evil genius Doctor who is disfigured in an accident and looses his wife to a team of bumbling Doctors. He decides to address the situation himself and doesn't settle for "binding arbitration." His solution was infinitely worse than any malpractice law suit. He used the theme of the 10 plagues of Egypt in the Bible to hunt down and whack the guilty Doctors, one at a time. Great writing and great acting. He's the bad guy you root for all through the story. One of my favorite flicks.

DAnneMarc: I was trying to think of his name last night when I saw him briefly on an old show...I didn't have time to watch it. I don't even know what the name of the show was...maybe it was the one you mentioned. Vincent Price! Yes, what a great actor! I'll certainly have to watch that movie "The Abominable Dr. Phibes?" when I can.

Every time I see a Mercedes commercial I think of Michael Hastings and his explosive and firey demise. Are the cars really that unsafe? Or, would any car be.. slamming into a tree at 80mph...or would any car be.. that had explosives rigged that resulted in throwing an engine and transmission 160 feet. That is actually one point I have to take issue with Carl's statements. He kept saying the engine was thrown 200 feet...but it was actually more like 160 feet. I measured the distance myself using Google Earth. I identified the exact curb where the engine/transmission was sitting, the features at that site, and then identified, using Google Earth street view those exact same features which matched the photo of the engine/transmission. Another 40 feet would have put the engine/transmission on the other side of the intersection..or at least in it..and someone would have had to carry it 40 feet closer to the crash site to wind up where it was in the photo.

I feel we need to create more ways to empower the American people, in the areas of self-expression, good people turn bad when they feel threatened and cornered, fear is a really big driver, and guns are really good security blankets. It is no wonder why people resort to using guns (sad as it may be) some people feel they have no choice, I have being creating self-expression tools for 30years please go to my website Trickle Down Campaigning http://trickledowncampaigning.com/ and please feel free to give me your opion and ideas -do not hold back I can take it...... peace AGG

"between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-m...

Why are we concentrating our attention on gun deaths per year when we should be concentrating our attention on hospital & doctor caused deaths? One thing that really gets my goat is that many people's diseases are not caught because doctors may not send their patients in for a scan or an xray or some other test or lab work. And even then, those tests are often misread and they miss things. I think that those people who make the decisions as to whether they should agree to send people in for a test find it much more profitable to just let the patient develop cancer or other mortal disease and just let the patients die.

I knew someone who was a Vietnam Vet, I'll call M., who was exposed to Agent Orange and who had been going to his VA doctor for years. And he had symptoms that the doctor should have acted on with various tests..scans. But all the doctor would do is keep prescribing various pain killers that eventually wouldn't work anymore.

The doctor would never prescribe sending him to the hospital. And the doctor was really ticked off at us for taking M. into emergency at the VA hospital when he was buckling over under excruciating pain and couldn't stand. We had called the nurse previously but they couldn't find the doctor...so the nurse suggested that we take M. to the VA hospital. So we did.

They didn't really do anything then except to put him under a temporary pain killer injection then write more prescriptions. But his excruciating pain soon returned...like the next day. And then, his doctor wanted to send him to a physical therapist to help him deal with the pain.

The second time we took him into the emergency.. a couple of days after the first visit..they finally ran tests..scans..and found a couple of large tumors and massive spread of cancer throughout his body.

Had the doctor, years earlier, when M. first started having strange symptoms including pain, prescribed tests like cat scans or pet scans or even an xray...they may have been able to catch it before the cancer spread.

They kept M. in the VA hospital for some time and they tried Chemotherapy but it didn't work so they put M. into hospice where he eventually died...a few months later. I'll never forget the nightmarish look on his deathbed face, as if he had seen the devil or perhaps was just in agonizing pain...mouth stretched wide open like he was in the middle of screaming for life. They were supposed to keep him supplied with narcotics to keep him from having pain...but we had had several problems with the nurses who seemed, often, very negligent. Often, they wouldn't give M. his pain killers and we had to complain...which of course..didn't make for good relations with the nurses.

I had thought then, that this was just typical of the VA...but then I learned from a former co-worker that his wife got cancer and went through about the same thing with her doctors...and she had insurance and went to a private doctor and hospital. She managed to survive because Chemotherapy worked for her...she was younger and they caught it in time...but just barely. They should have caught it much earlier...but they were negligent for not catching it sooner.

This problem is 14-15 times worse than the number of deaths due to guns. Why isn't there a movement, like the anti-gun movement, raising hell about the number of deaths due to hospitals and doctors malpractice?

Mister Bodmer, I'm so sorry you dislike my opinion.

Please brush up on your grammar. And while you're at it, review the Second Amendment. Are you a well-regulated militia? Didn't think so... - Aliceinwonderland

Quote R.Bodmer:The idea of registration and licencing puts too much power in the hands of the government. At any time a licence can be revoked for any reason. If in the event a person comes in controll of this licencing position that does not beleive in the 2nd amendment and the right to protect your self a slow revocation. one by one we could loose the ability to defend ourselfs. plus registration has allready been found to be a violation of the constitution of the United States of America.

R.Bodmer ~ Personally, I don't like the idea of gun control either--that is, as it is pertaining to any legislation that would infringe on peoples rights to own firearms. That being said, I have no problem with gun licensing or registration. I find it hard to believe that gun purchases without registration and licensing was ever permitted in the first place. Seems a little stupid and irresponsible to me. Of course, this is coming from someone who believes people should have to get a license to have a child. I believe that anything that you do, that has an affect either directly or indirectly on the freedoms of other, needs to be regulated by the Government. That is what they are for in the first place--TO PROTECT US FROM EACH OTHER.

I share your contention that we also need to protect ourselves from our Government. Especially now when the Government is responding so provocatively to mass shootings without ever even addressing mental health issues. During a time when they seem preoccupied taking away Constitutional human rights that protect We the People, it is natural and healthy to be very suspicious of their intent. I share your concern. However, from a practical standpoint, I can assure you that in no way is any of your stockpile of firearms going to do anything to protect you in the event that the Government decides to come and get you. In fact, I can almost assure you that any attempt to rely on such a recourse will inevitably result in your immediate demise as well as anyone else who is around you. You cannot fight the Federal Government with bullets. Relying on bullets to deal with the Government will also fuel a false sense of security that will prevent you from participating in movements that will be effective in the cause.

Until we get illegal guns out of the hands of criminals, take care of our mentally unstable citizens, solve our economic woes, reduce poverty, and end the war on drugs we are never going to solve the problem of gun violence. Registering and licensing guns will have a negligible impact only. It is no solution. It is, in fact, a Red Herring despite the fact that it is the responsible thing to do in a civilized society. Unfortunately, the society we live in is far from civilized. The bottom line is that as long as the other cures I've mentioned aren't addressed equally as well as "gun control" I suspect that this legislation is nothing more than a disingenuous nefarious trick and there is no way that I can fully support it. The Government simply has failed to convince me that they seriously want to protect the public. I don't know about you, but over time the Government has conditioned me to be very suspicious of anything they do, and question everything. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced that some rouge element in the Government itself isn't behind these mass shootings. The way they've jumped straight to "gun control" instead of addressing mental health makes me conclude that they have arranged these false flags for very nefarious purposes. There wasn't even any debate and it seemed like "Gun Control" legislation was already prepared and ready to go after each tragedy.

Lefty s in this country have been in denial of false flags since 9/11. Only a fool would deny that there wasn't complicit high level Government involvement with the WTC attack. How involved that was is open for conjecture. If you ask me the same agenda that was behind that false flag is behind all these shootings and "gun control" legislation. None of this is new. Just Google "Operation Northwoods." This agenda has been around for half a century. We have the responsibility to our future generation to keep an upper hand with our Government and keep it in check. We cannot allow it to chip away any more at our rights. Already we are going to have to fight to get back the ones we've lost. The elitists who control the puppets in Washington are very clever. They love to manipulate people into demanding exactly what they want to happen. We need to be smarter than that and not allow ourselves to be fooled. That begins with questioning everything that comes out of Washington like we were living in Nazi Germany. As Nancy Reagan once said, we need to know when to "Just Say NO!!"

Quote Aliceinwonderland: I agree with DAnneMarc's assertion that we need more economic justice in this society and to take better care of the mentally ill. But Marc, your logic escapes me when it comes to gun licensing. While I'm hardly naiive enough to assume gun licensing will magically erase the problem of gun violence, I do believe it would be a step in the right direction.

Aliceinwonderland ~ Yes, a step in the right direction; but, just what direction might that be? For you and I the direction is the betterment of society. What is it for the wealthy puppet masters that pull the strings in Washington. Between you and me I agree 100% that licensing and registering guns is an excellent idea. Never having purchased a gun I never new you could without such reasonable processes. Quite frankly I was shocked you could. Such a policy would be an excellent first step. But what is going to be the second step. Easy access to mental health services for everybody? I doubt that.

Remember the testimonials of how Nazism overtook Germany. It wasn't all at once. It took baby steps that seemed innocuous. People readily agreed to the proposals; which, at the time seemed like good ideas for everyone. Before Mr. Obama was elected a large contingency of "Teabrains" expressed concerns that he was going to come and take your guns away. Absolutely ridiculous accusation with no foundation in reality. However, don't forget that these groups were funded and covered by the same people who push policy. Any master criminal will tell you what better place to hide the true agenda then in plain sight.

Alice, believe me when I tell you that I neither like firearms, own firearms, or believe that we will persevere over the current batch of Tyrants with firearms. I do like the idea of registering and licensing all legally sold firearms. However, other than suicides and a few random homicides I don't believe that solution alone is going to make any difference in the big picture. I believe all the recent shooting were either planned or orchestrated by the ruling elite as part of a much more devious plan. Nowadays I don't trust anything that comes out of Washington to not have any ulterior motives. Finally, anytime the ruling elite are willing to sacrifice random innocent people to achieve an ends you can believe that the ends is not in the best interest of the country.

Don't think that I am against licensing and registering guns. Quite the opposite, I am against the advancement of fascism and tyranny. If they are after our guns, they can't have them. Remember, the Government has no reason to fear a well armed militia. It is the ruling elite who have that fear. They cannot walk around freely in an open society if they think the public is gunning for them. That is why they target law abiding citizens. They fear well armed law abiding citizens far more than criminals who just kill each other. In this case, this fear is a very, very healthy thing for the country; and, these elitists should continue being very, very afraid. That is the only thing that makes them hesitate at all from full blown fascism. That is what I can't support any gun control legislation at this time despite the fact that I believe in it. The timing is completely wrong. It is far more dangerous to proceed on this path now than is the danger that guns represent. Just call me paranoid.

DAnneMarc- I agree with many of your points. I wont be long winded but I will say this. There is a plan, not jsut in this country, but in this world. A plan that failed ultimately on a smaller scale with Hitler's "demise" as that was questionable at best as well. Even the people who are willing to believe they have a handle on the REAL reasons things happen, still tend to not look as deeply as required, or to be open minded enough to allow for new depths of corruption that might seem unrealistic, dare I say impossible in to the equation. The bottom line is, many of the events that take place that leave the world in awe, are orchistrated and carried out by the very people you want to let control your life even more. If you can't see that, you arent looking close enough. I personally have a deep and healthy distaste for the usage of the word "conspiracy" as it's use these days is widly to dissuade the public from even being open to something that incriminates poowerful, or key individuals from being in the spotlight. Once a conspiracy is attached to evidence it becomes a possibility. Once that evidence has proof, it's a fact.

Gun control is headed down a dark path. Disarming the only body that can take the Government out of power is one of the final stages of losing all of your freedoms. you will need permission to poop more than twice a day eventually. And the people who want to take the guns out of your hands are Mass murderers who dont stand trial. I would argue that the government does more damage in a decade with their "authorized" weapons than the american civilian populace have done in 100 years. Whos gonna take their guns away? Whos gonna take their rights? Who slaps them on the wrist, or throws them in jail when they commit crimes against humanity? NOONE. We laughed in the face of the UN with Iraq, now its like it never happened... NO actually it was always like it never happened. Which is what happens when the people give their power to the government and let them regulate literally every aspect of their life. Think about it. EVERYTHING is controlled. When you tell me that you want my guns because people with illegally obtained guns are doing bad things, my response is... No, welcome to real life, where bad things happen and you cant stop it no matter how much padding you put on my ass. People are so content to sacrifice their rights for comfort. That same mentality is why damn near every person in this generation has no idea whats going on in the world politically. Its the reason people like Bundy has support. Pure, unadulterated, ignorance... Which leads to the same pure, unfounded, fear. Fear is their ultimate weapon against us. The more they ruin the world, the more they will instil fear, the more they will control.

They cant take our guns... Not till they disarm themselves. My position will always be, as long as you wage war with other countries, and as long as your stance is to turn as many Americans into criminals as possible, My stance will be that giving up your opnly means of defense as a nation is not only foolish, but obsurd. An act of pure lunacy. I know what war is, I know how it feels. People think because they live in America that were safe fromt he things that happen in the rest of the world. If anything were the LEAST safe. We live in a haze of electronic distraction and steadily declining school systems overpopulated with disinclined youth. Few care that a high schoool senior in 2014 has the education level of a 10th grader in Europe, or even of a 10th grader 50 years ago right here in America. These things happen on purpose. They happen when people give more responsiblility to others ( like the government) and take less on themselves. People think they are on the cutting edge of the world, but really they are at the edge and about to be pushed off. Once we give up ourweapons, we have no chance of defending from the inevitable.We are programmed more every day to be slaves, and the idea that giving your own defences to an entity that has no intention of defending you is a good idea... Then you deserve whats coming.