Why some Republicans are opposing the Murray-Ryan plan.
By Thom Hartmann A...
Last night, the House of Representatives voted 332 to 94 to approve the Murray-Ryan budget deal. One hundred and sixty nine Republican House members voted in favor of the plan, and only 62 voted against it, but the future of this legislation is not quite as certain in the U.S. Senate. Several Republican Senators are have announced their opposition to this deal; some saying they disagree with cuts to military pensions, and others who disagree with offsetting the next round of sequester cuts.
Senators Bob Corker, Lindsey Graham, and Richard Shelby have announced they will not support this legislation, but their opposition appears to be nothing more than a reaction to pressure from conservative think tanks. These lawmakers aren't opposing this budget because they really care about military pensions – they simply want to appeal to hard-Right Tea Party groups like The Heritage Foundation and Americans For Prosperity. This is all about getting millions from the Koch brothers to use in the 2014 elections.
Once again, we've somehow ended up debating how much austerity should be imposed on our nation, rather than how much we should be investing. In order to prevent another government shutdown, the Senate will need to reach 60 votes to invoke cloture and pass this legislation, but it's unclear at this point if it's going to happen. In addition to Republican opposition, some Progressive senators oppose this legislation for real reasons – like the fact that it doesn't extend long-term unemployment, or close any corporate tax loopholes.
We will soon find out if there are enough Republicans worried a primary from the far-Right, or with eyes on the presidency in 2016, to cobble together enough votes to shut down the government – once again, for purely political reasons.
Comments
#2
I'd be surprised if any of these phony deals see the light of day. Neither side has anything to gain from losing the political football of the debt ceiling game. They will find some way to deflate the momentum of any potential solution and each side blaming the other in another elaborate smoke screen. All Kabuki theater.
Just imagine the absurdity of cutting veteran pensions instead of military spending. Absolutely preposterous by any means of the imagination!
#3
The show is currently being pre-empted here in Denver due to a shooting at Arapahoe High School, about 5.5 miles from my current location.
2 people have been shot, perpetrator not yet apprehended, but unconfirmed to be "down".
#4
The suspect is dead from apparent suicide.
#5
My call to the show was shortened. Perhaps because I was perceived to be a climate denier or worse?
The reason I was pointing out the shortage or hype of cheap natural gas and carbon was not to promote its extraction but to promote that time is of the essence to build renewables. When cheap carbon disappears, the ability to build renewables inexpensively will disappear as well. Solar panels, wind mills and geothermal power cannot yet reproduce itself (being 1-2% of power generation, worldwide).
Also an energy crisis could tip the country and the economy into a crisis, such as the one Mr. Hartman writes about in the crisis of 2016. 10 of the 11 recessions and economic crisis, energy was a factor.
Sorry if my message was befuddled.
PS - Read 2 books on the subject
http://www.postcarbon.org/book/1788629-snake-oil-how-fracking-s-false-promise#
http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Hungry-Dark-Exploding-Natural/dp/0865717435
#6
I enjoy reading all the blogs I much old than most of you a vet for a war a life time ago but alas the country I fought for is long gone. I so much love the Thom Hartman show so many of the people of my time are gone or lost there way. But Alice I quite enjoy your out look on life. Thanks Thom for all you do. The rest of you keep up the good fight
#7
Critique of The Crisis of 2016, Wish list for the Thom Hartman show.
TARP could have been the Reconstruction Finance Corporation of 1932 (passed by Hoover, but used by Roosevelt). TARP only was allowed to lend money to the banks and not to businesses or individuals such as struggling homeowners. If Congress or Obama had left the restriction out of the law, TARP could have acted like the RFC or the GI Bill did.
Obama could ask his treasury to create a pension treasury bond which pays 8% and then allow the social security trust fund, any public or private defined benefit plan to buy the bonds at issuance. It would sole the pension and social security crisis and stop the bleeding wall street is doing by debt deflation.
Central planning is performed by wall street. They not only loot the treasury but enable the overleverage of real estate by lobbying for property tax caps.
When bank reserves are greater than -0- (over a trillion today) the federal reserve can't increase the money supply, only the treasury can by running a deficit (lending t bills and bonds). Quanitiative easing is allowing the banks to create more derivatives such as credit default swaps by allowing the fiction of the bank having a greater tier 1 capital ratio. Lehman Brothers would satisfy Tier 1 capital requirements today. The Fed can't increase the money supply or increase the velocity of money.
The SEC rule 20, put into use in 1986 made Glass Steagell feckless. Greenspan than allowed the banks to trade up to 25% of their capital (a very large number) which he used the ruse (was really illegal) that it was dimunitive. Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act wasn't necessary other than to legitimize citigroup which merged a bank, insurance company and an investment bank.
Derivative Modernaziation Act of 2000 was passed to counter Brooksley Borne who had already resigned. It passed despite the Long Term Capital Management crisis which should have been a warning sign.
Wish List: I wish Thom Hartman could have on his show: Michael Hudson, Brooksley Borne, Bill Powers and Art Berman.
#8
Here we go again. Passing a small potatoes budget bill with no mention of closing tax loopholes for Wall Street and Corporate billionaires. Another proof that the Democrats have no backbone and the Republicans have no desire to offend their ultra rich play callers
#9
Some claime this is a bipartisan agreement. I would like to see the proportion of Republicans that voted for and against as well as the propotion of Democrats that voted for and against it. Might be interesting we to determine how bipartisan it actuallty is.
#10
As Mr. Hartmann implies, the revision of the national domestic policy debate from humanitarianism to austerity is perhaps the greatest and most democracy-killing triumph the forces of capitalism have imposed on the United States.
Prior to President Nixon's declaration of war on the Working Class, domestic politics focused on expansion of programs like the President Roosevelt's New Deal, President Kennedy's New Frontier and President Johnson's War on Poverty.
But Nixon, in a 1974 post-inaugural interview by William Randoph Hearst Jr., damned U.S. workers as spoiled brats. Henceforth, he said, all federal policies would be aimed at imposing ever-worsening hardships on all those we would today identify as members of the 99 Percent.
Though the interview appeared on Page One of every Hearst newspaper, it has since vanished down the Orwell hole. The purging of the material was so complete it is no longer available even in public-library microfiche archives.
After that, the shift from humanitarianism to austerity was a primary part of both parties' hidden agendas. But it was Democrat Jimmy Carter who initiated the first welfare cutbacks and so began the actual imposition of austerity. Since then, every president -- Republican and Democrat alike -- has fostered the increasing brutality of the U.S. economy.
From the perspective of the Ruling Class, this ensures what is called a "disciplined workforce" -- that is, a workforce too terrified of economic disaster to resist capitalist oppression.This -- workers' abject fears of the consequences of resistance -- is the real reason the USian union movement is dead.
Meanwhile the death of the Soviet Union cleared the way for the unapologetic imposition of fascism. This is the logical extension of capitalism's core ethos of infinite greed elevated to maximum virtue -- the rejection of every humanitarian principle humans have ever sought to assert.
Though the U.S.S.R. was never the worker's paradise it claimed to be, its mere existence compelled the capitalists to cloak their innate savagery with concessions to humanitarian demands. Now, with the Soviet Union gone and China hopelessly co-opted by capitalism, there is no force on earth capable of resisting capitalism's maturity into overt fascism.
In this context, the United States with its global empire and its intent to conquer the rest of the world has become the de facto Fourth Reich. Its foreign and domestic policy is shaped accordingly.
Meanwhile the emergence of domestic resistance movements has forced the One Percenters to slow their efforts to turn the U.S. into an electronic concentration camp. The sudden charade of a small degree of political rationality in the capitol is one of the results.
But this sudden appearance of civility is nothing more than a deception intended to give the Ruling Class time to perfect its methods of oppression. The long-term goal is creation of a concentration-camp state that is so effective it does not need the obvious Gestapo-and-death-camp apparatus that characterized the Third Reich.
#11
Loren ~ I can scarcely deny what you are talking about. I remember sitting in my crib as a child listening to a speech by President Richard Milhous Nixon to the point of screaming to my parents to put me on TV and give me a chance to debate the man. "He is lying and i can prove it," I said to my parents. They thought it was cute and laughed at me. They said, "You're right, the whole world is wrong." I assured them that this was absolutely correct. I was right, and the whole world was wrong. "Please put me on TV so that I can straighten out this problem." They laughed at me profusely. I can think of no other experience in my life that has had a worse detrimental effect on my life. I think I will remember that moment till the day I die as the most humiliating and spiritually defeating moment of my life.
What you say about the "Fourth Reich" of the world being the United States is a most compelling argument. However, I must reiterate, what good would come from developing a "Fifth Reich?" We must in our noble efforts be ever vigilant and responsible to never emulate the crimes and misconduct of our oppressors in our struggles for justice. To do so would be a self defeating effort that would lead us right back to the position that we currently find ourselves in; or, worse. It is a self defeating strategy that must be avoided at all cost.
#12
A sophisticated chess game? Maybe a poker game with the people not sitting at tablet are actually dealing the cards.? I think the latter.
The Paul Ryan announcemen of reaching a deal, so contrary to him kicking and screaming just a few weeks ago about holding government hostage to defund Obamacare, was definitely out of place. Perhaps the timing of the vote is part of internal, circular Republican firing squad giving Heritage and Freedom Works the incentive to primary McConnell, Cornyn, and others - as if they were not conservative enough! It was a budget by the rich for the corporate. Though we are led to believe what we are discussing is a budget agreement, the votes largely were made to appease the Citizens United campaign money machines ready to pounce in the 2014 primaries. The purposed budget apparently stops additional sequester cuts, primarily with defense firms, but otherwise does nothing to incentivize the economy. Sixty second news stories offer no insight how democracy has become the casino halls of dark, heavily financed, secret corporation political machines. This wasn't a budget vote, it was an unspoken extortion payment to the billionaires and their corporate, dark money - to avoid being primaried. Rich My first post
#13
"ckrob", here's the deal. Forget about "responsible". This 75-year retirement rule, arbitrarily forced on the post office, is what Thom calls a "poison pill", motivated by the Rethugs' hatred of unionized labor. USPS happens to be the biggest unionized workforce in the country, and we know how much those little fascists hate unions!
#14
Thank you for writing your post. In my opinion we are living in an oligarchial state where the monopolists and the FIRE (Financial, Insurance, Real Estate) and the attorneys have swept aside the regulations, put in a place, permanent debt deflation and created bubbles and busts to finalize the deal.
I'm scared that energy will be the next crisis, where tens of millions or even a hundred million americans are considered disposable and swept aside. Water will be used for frracking instead of agriculutre and food.
The crisis, crash of 2016 won't be followed with a rebirth. First off, the depression of the 1930's discarded millions of people and the corporate state reinstated itself during the war ultimately leading to the passing of the Taft Hartly Act in 1947. Roosevelt used troops in Philadelphia to squash union protests and threatened to draft the Philadelphia workers into the army if they didn't comply. Not quite the good old days.
#15
Loren ~ That being said, I've read you analysis of current events several times and must say it appears to be terrifyingly accurate and eloquently explicative of everything that is currently going on. In all, it is an airtight analysis.
The shear emboldening of the establishment toward fascist agendas is clearly explained by:
Quote Loren Bliss:Meanwhile the death of the Soviet Union cleared the way for the unapologetic imposition of fascism. This is the logical extension of capitalism's core ethos of infinite greed elevated to maximum virtue -- the rejection of every humanitarian principle humans have ever sought to assert.Though the U.S.S.R. was never the worker's paradise it claimed to be, its mere existence compelled the capitalists to cloak their innate savagery with concessions to humanitarian demands. Now, with the Soviet Union gone and China hopelessly co-opted by capitalism, there is no force on earth capable of resisting capitalism's maturity into overt fascism.
You then go on to explain why in the grip of utter darkness flashes of light occur that tend to misdirect and confuse us. Palindromedary and myself have questioned these "impotent" gestures to death. They make little sense from neither the standpoint of the current agenda or their ability to succeed and cause any real change. One must even ask themselves what chance the ACA has of staying law if a subsequent Administration decides to abolish it? The mere fact that all the current budget agreements do nothing to stay the possibility of another debt ceiling crisis in two months clearly demonstrate what a colossal waste of time this charade really is. The only potentially logical explanation I have heard yet has been given by you:
Quote Loren Bliss:In this context, the United States with its global empire and its intent to conquer the rest of the world has become the de facto Fourth Reich. Its foreign and domestic policy is shaped accordingly.Meanwhile the emergence of domestic resistance movements has forced the One Percenters to slow their efforts to turn the U.S. into an electronic concentration camp. The sudden charade of a small degree of political rationality in the capitol is one of the results.
But this sudden appearance of civility is nothing more than a deception intended to give the Ruling Class time to perfect its methods of oppression. The long-term goal is creation of a concentration-camp state that is so effective it does not need the obvious Gestapo-and-death-camp apparatus that characterized the Third Reich.
If correct I might add that our only course of action would be to keep up the heat. Here complacently is an action that is truly futile. We must not allow these deceptions to succeed.
#16
Quote Aliceinwonderland:they're not teaching kids how to write in longhand (i.e. "cursive") anymore. Everything is being done on keyboards now, and the decision-makers assume it isn't needed. So now we've got generations who can't read or write "cursive".
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2013/12/we-cant-let-congress-fast-track...
Perhaps there is method to this madness...hand written letters cannot be so easily spied on as typing things into a computer or mobile device. For one thing, they'd have to open the letters and then have analysts read them then seal them back up and send them to their intended recipient.
CAPCHA is an example of how they can roughly determine whether a human or a computer is there. And most of the time they use print rather than use cursive..although they usually deform and displace the characters from what most computers would be able to interpret as valid characters. I think variations in cursive..ie: handwriting styles...would be even harder for a computer to interpret.
When I worked in the Pentagon back in the 70s, they had OCRs (optical character readers). At the time, it was rather large and operators would scan documents and whenever an unrecognized character was detected by the computer the operator would see that page and highlighted character on the monitor. She/he would have to analyze what the character should have been and then type it in to correct the document.
So, if nobody is able to write anymore in cursive..they have to print or type. Some people may not print so clearly but I think most people's printing is a lot easier to interpret than most cursive writing. Even though they may now have the ability to interpret most cursive writing, it is most likely not very reliable or readily spied on.
#17
"electronic concentration camp"...how perceptive! Maybe the "gas chambers" will be "faux healthcare"...a much slower death and, perhaps, less theatrical...less visible to the rest of the herd so as not to spook them into revolution. We will all just quietly slip away from preventable fatal diseases that the "doctors of death" have connivingly avoided prescribing the necessary tests and medications necessary to prevent them. And all the while, the Doctor Mengales of this world are fleecing us of every last cent we've saved up before we die. Does healthcare really have to cost so much here in the US when it is so much more inexpensive everywhere else?
#18
AIW, I agree with your comments regarding repub motivations. However, my point was that the repubs say the social security trust fund is worthless because it consists of treasury certificates and at the same time they demand a poison pill, post office retirement trust fund which will also consist of treasury certificates having value in some mysterious way which they fail to indicate. Their intent to eventually privatize these functions for their own profit is obvious but we would do well to point out that their views of the two trust fund accounts are polar opposites (i.e.) one worthless and the other a dire necessity. My use of 'Responsible' was ironic, therefore the capitalization.
#19
AUSTERITY REALLY WORKS; as told by Representative Alan Grayson in a letter entitled "How To Destroy An Entire Country" concerning recent developements in Greece:Quote Representative Grayson:From a recent 188-page report by the World Health Organization come these ghastly and appalling factoids:
- Suicide rates rose 40% in the first six months of 2011 alone.
- Murder has doubled.
- 9,100 doctors in Greece, roughly one out of every seven, have been laid off.
Joining those doctors in joblessness are 27.6% of the entire Greek labor force. By comparison, in the depths of the Great Depression, unemployment in the United States peaked at a lower percentage than that. Among Greek young adults under 25 years old, unemployment reached an abominable 64.9% in May. (Yet the unemployment rate in Greece was as low as 7% as recently as 2008.)
As to what is behind this unparalleled disaster, the Congressman goes on,
Quote Representative Grayson:So we cannot properly attribute the catastrophe in Greece to labor protection, nor can we attribute it to government borrowing. What is the cause, then? The World Health Organization has the answer: austerity. "Austerity" is a bloodless term for gross economic mismanagement, animated by heartlessness. That robotic cut-cut-cut mentality that deprives us of jobs, of public services, of safety, of health, of infrastructure, of help for the needy, and - ultimately -- of our economic equilibrium and the ability to survive. The mentality that ushers in, and welcomes, a vicious war of all against all. Austerity is destroying an entire country, right before our eyes.Or, as the World Health Organization put it: "These adverse trends in Greece pose a warning to other countries undergoing significant fiscal austerity, including Spain, Ireland and Italy. It also suggests that ways need to be found for cash-strapped governments to consolidate finances without undermining much-needed investments in health."
Representative Grayson then draws the parallel to the United States in his poignant conclusion:
Quote Representative Grayson:In America, we have a rich and powerful lobby that has the same prescription for every economic malady: austerity. Cut-cut-cut. Cut Social Security and Medicare. Cut teacher and police and firefighter jobs. Cut health care. Cut pay and cut pensions. It all boils down to that one ugly word: austerity. And austerity always brings disarray, disaster, decay and death.People often ask me my position on various issues. Well, I'm for certain things, and I'm against others. But on one issue, I'm very consistent. I'm against pain and suffering. Especially avoidable pain and suffering. And therefore, I'm against austerity. It begins with seemingly innocuous budget cuts. It then leads inexorably to the destruction of countless lives.
Why am I telling you about Greece? In 1935, Sinclair Lewis wrote a book called "It Can't Happen Here." But it can. And it's up to us to prevent it.
Courage,
Rep. Alan Grayson
"The horror! The horror!"
-- The last words of Col. Kurtz in Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness (1899).
Personally, I would rally around an Alan Grayson nomination for President the same way white rallies around rice.
#20
Quote Palindromedary:Does healthcare really have to cost so much here in the US when it is so much more inexpensive everywhere else?
Palindromedary ~ Absolutely not! And thanks for asking that simple, and oh so important question. When a society properly focuses its resources toward an objective--such as the good health of it's citizenry--economic and effective ways are quickly secured for the good of all. The world is full of such examples. There is no excuse for health care--or education for that matter--to be so mind bogglingly expensive and difficult to obtain. Was education or health care that expensive in this country when we were children? Of course not. Hospital bills and tuition may have been high, but they were easily affordable by most people; and, no one ever had to go into debt to pay them. Has the quality of these services increased so much as to warrant such an increase in cost? Absolutely not! In fact, the quality of both has declined significantly over the years. Technology may have improved significantly; yet, if it doesn't increase quality and reduce cost it is a non factor. The truth of the matter is that the skyrocketing cost of both healthcare and education is only a result of monopolization and exploitation. The end goal is to dumb down the masses and increase the instance of early death in the poor. There is no other logical conclusion to explain the trend when compared with our own history and the current state of affairs in the rest of the world. The elitist in this country want an ignorant and exploitable labor force that self terminates shortly after--or just before--their useful years of servitude are over. They want helpless and disposable slaves. The death camp scenario of Loren Bliss is a very accurate assessment.
#21
Palin, I appreciate your explanation. But it bugs me anyway, because (as many apparently have forgotten!), the whole friggin' universe does NOT revolve around computers and related gadgetry. I still see a place for cursive writing in our culture, and if others don't, I find it very disturbing. I'm not addressing you personally with that last statement, PD; it just saddens me to see a way of writing wiped off the map because high-tech influence has to dominate everything. It bums me out. If it's spy proof... TOO BAD. - Aliceinwonderland
#22
"trueamericavet"- thank you.
#23
Quote Aliceinwonderland:(if Palindromedary will excuse that expression! tsk...)Ok
#24
Quote DAnneMarc:And thanks for asking that simple, and oh so important question.You're welcome.
#25
"ckrob", now you've got me confused. I'm not sure exactly what I said that you're not getting. The Rethugs couldn't care less about Social Security. The discrepancy between their claim that it is "worthless" (which is a lie), and that "poison-pill" law they created out of thin air, is quite simple to understand; at least from my view and Thom's. The "poison pill" is not really to ensure the retirement security of USPS employees who aren't even born yet (another reich-wing lie!). Beyond this being an attack against the largest unionized workforce in the country, it is simply the reich's attempt to destroy - and privatize - yet another part of the commons by imposing a financial burden on the U.S. Post Office that is impossible to sustain, so that they eventually implode. Both FedEx and UPS have lobbied for this aggressively, as they would just love to snatch the post office's business for themselves! Oh boy! Yum-Yum.
If these toadies get their way, it will be a friggin' nightmare for the rest of us, the 999.999% of the U.S. population who depend heavily on our non-profit postal service just to function day-to-day; who (I might add) now take it totally for granted. If the USPS goes bye-bye, we won't be taking it for granted anymore my friend. Kinda reminds me of that old Joanie Mitchell lyric, the one that says: "Ya don't know what 'cha got 'til it's gone... " If UPS and FedEx take over the mail service, we're screwed... Again. In a big, big way. No longer will we be able to send a letter anywhere in the country for just fifty cents! Nope; the price of postage will shoot through the stratosphere. No longer will mail be delivered to every nook & cranny of civilization, no matter how remote! And the service will suck, mightily. Many if not most rural areas will be deemed "unprofitable" and thus abandoned. Residents of such areas will suddenly find themselves stranded without postal service, having to drive long distances just to pick up their friggin' mail.
Seems to me the Rethugs must assume the "masses" are awfully stupid if they think we'll accept their lame rationale at face value, and/or fail to notice the gaping holes in their logic. Or maybe they don't care about that either. Perhaps they've already created a reality where We The Peons, what we need and want, aren't relevant anymore. God help us... (if Palindromedary will excuse that expression! tsk...)
Anyway that's the best I know how to explain it, "ckrob". Hope this helps. - Aliceinwonderland
#26
OOPS! Sorry, Palin. I forgot that when I do an edit, my post jumps down to the end of the line... Oh well! So now what you're replying to comes after, rather than before, your response. Guess I spaced that particular quirk with this blog.
However I've started gettin' involved with another blog I stumbled into by accident this weekend, imbedded in an e-mail message I received last week. It's called Naked Capitalism (Love that title!). I'm having trouble adaptng to their quirks because they operate very differently from this blog. Talk about quirks! Compared to Thom's blog, Naked Capitalism is a confusing, bewildering pain in the butt to engage with. Drives me crazy. So far it's been a love-hate sort of thing for me. (SIGH) But it seems well worth the effort 'cuz there's some highly intelligent, articulate posts in "Naked"; very thought-provoking, from a crowd that is vastly more mature and way smarter than I've encountered on so many other blogs. (Not this one though; I love Thom's blog!)
By the way, Palin... before I go, I must thank you for turning me onto Text Edit. It's been extremely helpful. No more gobbildygook gibberish! Yay! Thanks for the tip, my friend. - Aliceinwonderland
#27
Quote Aliceinwonderland:By the way, Palin... before I go, I must thank you for turning me onto Text Edit. It's been extremely helpful. No more gobbildygook gibberish! Yay! Thanks for the tip, my friend.Great! I'm glad that worked out for you.
#28
Quote Aliceinwonderland: I've started gettin' involved with another blog I stumbled into by accident this weekend, imbedded in an e-mail message I received last week. It's called Naked Capitalism
There you are! I found you. Thanks for mentioning that site. Except some people are using two different names on that site. ;-}
#29
Wow what a trip, Palin! You found me on the NC blog?! Did you actually recognize me in there? (I don't go by "Aliceinwonderland"; I go by my birth name in most places, including that blog.) Regardless, I think you'd find it interesting. Nice thought provokng, intelligent conversation; disagreements handled in a civilized manner; no personal attacks, sophomoric mind games or recycled FOX sound bytes. Oh yeah, an occasonal wing nut... but heck, even the wing nuts are civilized. And I love that blog's name, Naked Capitalism, which is what attracted me to it in the first place. With a name like that, one needn't wonder where those guys are coming from! Whatever frustrations and discord might come with the territory, visiting blogland and getting involved, such dialogue helps me stay sane. I can learn, discuss, debate, vent, commiserate... you know, what I do with you guys, with enough likeminded folks to satisfy me. Anyway PD, glad you found it! If you think you recognize me among the troublemakers in there, tell me the name. Guess it right and you win the grand prize; you get to have me over for dinner! (Yuk, yuk...) - AIW
#30
By the way Marc, I appreciated Senator Grayson's essay about austerity. Thanks for sharing that. It's a scary, unpleasant subject, but like the saying goes, forewarned is forearmed!
I sure hope enough people will be sufficiently fed-up by next November to send a bunch of those fascists packing. I never thought I'd live to see an entire nation swindled, robbed, run into the ditch, but... this is where we are my friends! What a freak show... good god y'all. We can't change the channel, so let's jump in and raise hell. - AIW
#31
Aliceinwonderland: When the northwind blows, there be fireshadows.
#32
Quote Palindromedary:Aliceinwonderland: When the northwind blows, there be fireshadows.
Aliceinwonderland and Palidromedary ~ Amen to those sentiments. In the future, let us fight fire with fire!
#33
AIW, look at my response's first sentence. I state that I agree with the points you made. You don't need to convince me. My point is about the conflicting logic the Repubs are trying to get away with.
#34
"ckrob", your point is spot-on. The reason I explained it further was that you'd given me the impression you needed further explanation. I guess there's nothing to explain when there is no logic, only false pretense. You can't make sense of the nonsensical any more than you can defend the indefensible.
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So the Republicans say the Social Security Trust fund is just IOU's AND we have to sock away 75 years retirement financing for the post office in another fund because it's a Responsible Thing To Do. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction for me?