Bundy’s Friends Have Become the Kochs’ "Useful Idiots"

If you want to understand the modern American right, just head on out to Bunkerville, Nevada and visit the Bundy Ranch. The mainstream media may have backed off talking about them ever since The New York Times published Cliven Bundy’s racist rant, but, believe it or not, militia groups are still hanging around the Bundy Ranch and they’re really starting to annoy everyone else who lives in the area. It’s gotten so bad that Congressman Steven Horsford, who represents the area around the Bundy Ranch, actually wrote a letter to Clark County’s sheriff complaining that militia members have set up roadblocks and checkpoints on local highways.

For most Americans, the idea of armed gunmen checking drivers’ licenses and blocking off highways conjures up some pretty scary images. After all, this is America, not Somalia, and there’s no reason in a supposedly developed country like ours that anyone should be acting like a warlord. But there’s more to this situation than meets the eye, and if you actually take the time to listen to what militia members are saying about why they’ve decided to take a stand at the Bundy Ranch, you’d be surprised at how similar it sounds to some of the things we talk about on this program.

A few weeks ago, for example, right when this whole controversy started, I had Sheriff Richard Mack of the Oath Keepers on my radio show to talk about why he and his group supported Cliven Bundy. Sheriff Mack believes in some pretty non-mainstream stuff and there are a lot of areas where I disagree with him, but we both agree that corporate interests have taken over our government and that the American people have been sold down the river.

Like so many other Americans these days, Mack and his friends in the militia movement are frustrated, scared, and angry. They’re frustrated that their government cares more about helping big business than everyday people, they’re scared that they have no power, and they’re angry that the economic cards are stacked against them. The fear that drives the militia movement is a very real fear. It’s a fear that anyone who’s been screwed over by 30-plus years of Reaganomics can identify with.

I know this from my own personal experience. I grew up with guys like Sheriff Mack in Michigan, and I still run into guys like him when I go back there to visit my brothers and we go to the shooting range. The Michigan Militia guys are misinformed about a lot of things and have some ugly views, and they can usually repeat the previous days' Fox programming verbatim, but their anger and frustration with the status quo is real. Tragically, what they don't realize is that people like the Koch Brothers and Karl Rove and Roger Ailes are just exploiting them.

That’s the ironic thing about the militia movement. Despite all its rage against corrupt government, American decline, and the elites, in the end, the only people who benefit from its fight against “big government” are the same people who are already destroying our country - the billionaires and the oligarchs. To put it bluntly, the militias are the useful idiots of the one percent. The Bundy Ranch standoff is a great example of this. Militia groups think they’re protecting a humble rancher from a government land grab, but they’re actually helping a few robber barons make a land grab of their own.

The Koch Brothers have been trying for years to get their hands on publicly-owned land in the American West, and with the help of ALEC, have pushed for legislation in states like Utah to help them do so. When Cliven Bundy’s tussle with the Feds started to make news, they saw their chance to make their own land grab and started promoting his standoff as an epic fight against tyranny. The Nevada chapter of the Koch-backed group Americans for Prosperity, for example, sent out photos mocking the Bureau of Land Management for trying to round up Bundy’s cows, and pushed the hashtag “Bundy Battle” on Twitter. The Kochs hoped that by turning Bundy into a folk hero, they could shore up enough popular support for their land grab.

This isn’t to say, of course, that the militia groups who are still hanging around the Bundy Ranch don’t believe in their cause - they do. Anyone who has even a casual conversation with them can see that. But it’s important to remember that their fear and hatred of the federal government is a "useful" anger - an anger that's there for the taking by any oligarch who wants to manipulate it. And manipulate it they are doing. In the big scheme of things, the rage of Bundy’s militia supporters isn’t all that different from the rage of all the working and middle class Americans who vote Republican in election after election.

Like those millions of Republican supporters, the militia groups occupying the land around the Bundy Ranch want real change in this country and are frustrated with an economy that doesn’t work for them and a government that seems like it only cares about making things easier for the one percent. They’ve just been duped by the wealthy right-wing media and the billionaires into believing that real change will only come about by destroying the federal government and handing federal lands - and pretty much everything else - over to the oligarchs.


DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 8 years 47 weeks ago

"Bunkerville?" Is that a typo, or are you serious? Well I guess Bundy and the Oligarchs just couldn't have picked a better named spot for a show down, could they? Pardon me while I try to compose myself after laughing my head off.

Seriously though, I thank Thom for thinking this through and filling in the gaps. I knew from day one of this story that if the Bundy resistance wasn't obliterated on the first day that there must be ulterior motives at work; and, now thanks to Thom they seem pretty clear.

One thing though. I have to wonder if this hatred of the Government by the Bundy clan is a genuine hatred--such as that we progressives have--and not simply a hatred of the color of the man in charge. If you ask me, this scheme by the Koch brothers may run deeper than just a few misguided nitwits. They are being baited by race more so than anything else if you ask me.

Don't forget that idiotic bigoted rant Mr. Bundy shared with us. In my opinion this is more about the black guy in office than any real land dispute. I know Thom likes to see the best in people. So do I. However, only racial hatred can make anyone act this blatantly stupid. I would hold off on my lofty assessment of their actions and spend a little more time listening to what they say. What I hear is that black men aren't capable of raising a family and do their best as slaves. Doesn't that say a lot about how they must feel about the current President? Doesn't that explain their hatred toward the Government? Do you think this standoff would have ever happened if the current President was White? And, do you really think that this entire scenario isn't part of the Koch plan?

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 8 years 47 weeks ago

I'm still waiting to hear the Bundy family's legal argument for the use of this land. Surely over so many generations the question came up? Hello! I'm listening!

BMetcalfe's picture
BMetcalfe 8 years 47 weeks ago

I'm free, white, blue eyed and well long past 21. I'd be offended AND afraid if someone dressed like a militiaman or woman had the audacity to stop me and demand any form of I.D. So, if even I am dubious of this kind of dangerous rhetoric, think of what our brothers and sisters with just a darker/a lot darker skin might have to feel or be put through, if they find themselves stopped by similarly dressed people!

Surely these so-called militia thugs are breaking County or State Laws! They must be stopped, however that has to happen. Where are the Nevada National Guard? We can't allow these rural gangs to antagonize the rest of us, and make those who might not pass muster drive many miles out of their ways to avoid trouble.

martaw 8 years 47 weeks ago

What gets ignored every time is the issue of welfare ranching. Bundy and his ilk believe that they own our public land and that it should be for their cattle and their profit. Every dollar they make was subsidised by the citizens of the US. we get nothing in return. But what is even more important to me is that these welfare queens and those who want to frack, wind machine, mine or otherwise use up our public land at our expense are wiping out the wild horses and burros who are legally supposed to be protected at the request of the public via an act of congress in 1970. No one even looks at how they are being decimated and sent to live in torture holding chambers operated by BLM until they are so sick they get sent to slaughter. It is criminal. And btw fracking kills the water, the earth and all life. So the fracker intersests that want our public land in reality want to murder our public land for all time. to learn more go to these two groups: http://www.westernwatersheds.org/ and http://wildhorseeducation.org/

richinfolsom 8 years 47 weeks ago

"...the idea of armed gunman blocking the highways and checking drivers' licenses conjures up some pretty scary images." The political forces of capitalism, with violent media images of Rambo, funded by the NRA, a military war machine, and dousing the flame with god, old fashion, centuries old region hate. News sources have become a type of "reality less less" television with the likes of CNN spending half of its budget talking with "experts" who have no knowledge about the location of an airplane - or a relatively inconsequential, obnoxious billionaire who espouses venous hate towards the color of the skin of the NBA players. I share alarm about what has been taking place in Nevada - and moreover, that a large, politically motivated corporation with incredibly large television, movie, newspaper, and worldwide media distribution delivery systems, took an obscure, mediocre, legal issue, and poured emotional kerosene on it. The labels we use in our political discourse seem to be backwards. E is nothing conservative about laying on a freeway overpass with a high powered weapon targeted at law enforcement. There is nothing conservative about stirring up the flames of hate against the government and provoking a lone wolf of taking the first shot, such as what we saw several years ago in Tucson. Indeed, we live in perilous times with communication tools and technology absconded by a few corporations. Are we to see a new militia of anonymous faces of hate promulgated behind the scenes by corporate board rooms, ready to up their ratings with live images of a blood bath over a rancher refusing to pay a reasonable fee to rent land? I am thankful that law enforcement showed restraint and avoid a shoot out at Bundy's OK Corral. I will be damned if I am ever stopped by a group of warlords, "Corporations are people my friends." - M Romney

Kend's picture
Kend 8 years 47 weeks ago

I just drove from Phoenix to Calgary 2400 km or 1500 miles through Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Utah and Montana And saw nothing but bare vacant land. For the life of me I can not understand why they would want to kick a farmer who has been on that land for over a 100 years OFF that land.

First I heard it was over turtles. LOL. Anyone who knows anything about cows and horses will tell you they will never step on a living animal.

Then I heard it was over a Chinese companies solar plant. Again just fence it off.

can anyone help me here. Why would they want him to move.

is it true that Harry Reid and his son have some financial interest in this solar plant. I am so confused. As a outsider this whole thing is insane and makes no sense at all. It is kinda funny how it all ends up brining the Koch bros fault. Like they would give a poop about some frickin rancher in the middle of no frickin where.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

The Al Qaeda BBB (or, would it be KBB?)cut off heads on the spot of those who refuse to convert to Islam. So, if these nitwits, with rifles, try to stop someone on the highway and the driver manages to freak out and create some militia road kill maybe these militia will be more hesitant in trying to stop people. These people aren't uniformed policemen...probably just normal clothes....what would most people think if someone like that tries to stop you on the highway? That they are armed killer madmen who could kill you? So why wouldn't using your vehicle in self-defense be a good idea?

Loren Bliss's picture
Loren Bliss 8 years 47 weeks ago

Trying to quote Mr. Hartmann here, but as usual neither the <quote> option nor the [quote] option will work for me. Hence I'll type it in by hand:

"...the idea of armed gunman blocking the highways and checking drivers' licenses conjures up some pretty scary images."

Indeed it is terrifying, but no more so than our future. Just as the cities are being gentrified into the baronial strongholds of the very rich (scroll down at http://lorenbliss.typepad.com/loren-bliss-outside-agitators-notebook/201... ), so is much of the countryside becoming the baliwick of the Bible-thump Bumpkin Brigade.

Soon the roadblocks will be used, as they are elsewhere in regions of religious strife, to authenticate one's orthodoxy, with the result that anyone who does not have the proper church membership card, or any woman who is not dressed as modestly as an old-time nun, will be dragged out of their car and shot on the spot...or worse.

Somalia? Yes indeed: it's Somalia North, precesly what the One Percent -- having looted the USian Homeland of everything that's lootable (except slaves) -- is making of what used to be the most promising nation on Planet Earth.

Welcome to the REAL future: not Star Trek but Les Miserables and/or Apocalypse Now.

David in Vegas's picture
David in Vegas 8 years 47 weeks ago

Thom, just because you say it is so (about Conservatives) does not make it true. You do not understand the conservative way of thinking so you are a poor judge of the how/what/why of our thinkingness.

If any of you had taken the time to listen to talk radio, you would know that there is at least as much concern that Bundy is a deadbeat in paying his fees as there is concern about how the government is handling the situation. Bringing the Koch brothers in to the mix is simply absurd, but you are trying to sling any possible situation, as mud, to try and tarnish the reputations of those gentlemen.

Your blog post is dishonest and truly another desperation move to try to get people to foget how completely incompetent our president and democrat senate has managed the affairs of the country.

Perhaps if you bothered to question the motives and actions of those in your own party you'd have some credibility here, there or anywhere.

ML, Dave

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

kend: Glad you made it back to Calgary ok! It was getting pretty hot in the Phoenix area, huh?

By the way, concerning the Cliven Bundy affair:
"Back in 1993, Cliven Bundy began declining to pay the government fees required to allow his cattle to graze on public lands, and in 1998, as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise found in that area, the government obtained the issuance of a court order requiring Bundy to take his cows off that land. In July 2013, a federal court finally ordered Bundy to get his cattle off public land within 45 days or risk having them confiscated by the government and sold to pay off the fees and trespassing fines (reportedly in excess of $1.2 million) that he owes"--snopes

"The site that ENN Mojave Energy was planning to buy in order to build a solar plant is nowhere near the public land Bundy has been disputing with the government, and ENN gave up the solar project and terminated its agreement to buy land to house it as far back as June 2013"--snopes

"Even the conservative Breitbart site debunked this conspiracy claim, noting:
Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation — the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada."--snopes


Kend's picture
Kend 8 years 47 weeks ago

Palin funny thing is our aborigals have road blocks all the time. they never hurt anyone but just protest but it is a pain in the butt. some have used there vehicles as self defence but they just end up in jail. There is two different laws up here though. If you have a band card you can pretty much do what ever you want. We really don't pay much at tension to them They end it faster if you ignore them.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 8 years 47 weeks ago

In last Friday's "Thom's Poll"...."Should the right-wing militia groups be considered Domestic Terrorists?"....I made a smart ass comment mocking Lapierre's "freedom needs our defense now," NRA speech. I turned things around a little by pointing out the reality of who needs to be targeted in order to defend our freedom.

My point, basically being similar to that of Thom's tonight, was that the armed citizens indeed feel real frustration and pain, but as Thom put it, they simply have been duped by Roger Ailes and his right wing extremist media, the Koch brothers, Karl Rove, and other billionaire Fascist's into thinking that those actually on their side, "we progressives" , are in fact their enemy. They don't know who their real target is...so I clued them in so to speak. It's tragic and it pisses me off to beat hell that the militias have it backwards. I fight every damn day in my own little way to get the truth out to at least friends, co-workers, and neighbors.... If we all communicate truth to just a few around us each day, I sincerely believe we can overcome the out of control imbalance of those with wealth and power who are currently thrusting, we the vast majority, quickly, into a 3rd world status.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago
Quote David in Vegas:Your blog post is dishonest and truly another desperation move to try to get people to foget how completely incompetent our president and democrat senate has managed the affairs of the country.
I tend to agree with part of that...about the incompetence of our president and the democrats...but they are owned by the ruling elite just as much as are the republicans. One thing though, at least Obama didn't lie us into invading a sovereign country based of lies of WMD like Bush did.

But, I think they are partially behind the overthrow of the original Ukraine government and other countries like Egypt, Libya, and they are still trying in Syria even supplying Al Qaeda with chemical weapons (as a false flag operation trying to make us believe that Al Assad used chemical weapons against his own people) and other weapons and support.

And they are still trying to overthrow South American popularly elected governments by aiding and fomenting internal dissent. Doesn't seem to bother the Obama government that Al Qaeda are cutting off heads of Christians in Syria because they won't convert to Islam.

And I think they are behind some pretty foolish stunts that will lead to another cold war with Russia...or even a nuclear showdown. Every time I hear Kerry or Obama or any of the other US government spokespeople spew their idiotic and hypocritical claims against Russia in the Ukraine I cringe...wondering how they could say these things with a straight face since they are accusing the Russians of the same things the US did in the Ukraine to begin with (ie: assisting the people in rebelling against the government...now, the illegitimate Nazi government). I wonder if Obama has a swastika sewn in an inside pocket.

And the Obama regime certainly did not pull out of the Middle East, nor immediately stop torture in the US gulags in Iraq and in Gitmo. And they also sent people to places, like Egypt, where they would be tortured to death..all with the idea of deniability. Obama, instead of welcoming whistle blowers, as he once claimed we needed more of, he just wants to prosecute them.

So, just like the Republican supporters, and militia, may be useful idiots for the ruling elite...so too the Democrat supporters are being useful idiots for the ruling elite. The Democrat supporters are still being hoodwinked by the "liberal media" that all we have to do is get a majority of Democrats in office in order to change things. But I believe that even if we had 100% Democrats in Congress (not one Republican) and a Democrat President...that the 99% of the people in the US would still not be represented by them. All those Democrats would still be owned by the ruling elite...it would just be harder to blame someone else for their misrepresentation of the 99%.

And there are ruling elite wannabes who play both sides to keep the people forever hopeful of change while they rob the store. These ruling elite wannabes still think they have a chance to keep from being sucked into the abyss with the rest of us less fortunate people. The image that comes to mind is Capos. Capos were Jews in the Nazi concentration camps who had better food, better quarters, better everything compared to all the other Jews. All they had to do was keep all the other Jews in line. They even beat fellow Jews just as ruthlessly as the Nazis did and even killed fellow Jews.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

kend: You mean aboriginals? What Indians?...or original native people of Canada?

Yes, of course protestors that block traffic happen frequently here too...especially in big cities. But, they don't carry around weapons like rifles or pistols. But if someone tried to do this out in the desert, with weapons...I would imagine that could be quite frightening. I don't know how people would react...especially if they had just heard on the radio about dangerous criminals or rapists. They might just decide to crash into those guys with rifles or pistols instead of just stopping. I suppose the most level headed thing one could do, if they weren't aware of who these people are, is to just stop some great distance before they got there and do a U turn. But, if you knew they were militia and were there because of the Bundy situation, and that you were in a line of cars (others around) then going through would be less scary. What people should do, I suppose, is use your cell phones or other devices and take photos of these people (stealthily, of course) and then report them to the authorities. May not do any good...but it is illegal to stop people like that unless you are a lawman. Militias are not authorized to do this. They are committing a crime...not that it will do any good to report them if the sheriff is on their side.

Kend's picture
Kend 8 years 47 weeks ago

Here we are not supposed to call them Indians anymore. Aboriginals are the native people of Canada And that is the name of the week. They have guns at these check stops and it is scary. Many times the army is called in. But again no one has ever been hurt. In the 80's in the oil fields it wasnt uncommon for them to stop you just for gas. They had guns but so did I. None of us would have used one I think. I always carried 5 gallons in a can it was faster to get on your way.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 47 weeks ago

Marc, I'm with you on this Bundy land-grab scenario. The broad strokes with which this nitwit Bundy generalizes about black men say more about Bundy than who he's dissing. I hate the thought of sharing even a microscopic smidgen of common ground with Bundy and his ilk. I don't care if we all happen to agree about who's hijacked our government. People like that make me sick. Sometimes when I hear their toxic rants I feel ashamed of my white skin and the tyranny it represents to some folks; those who just happen to be the targets of those ugly rants. Fascism thrives on that shit. Heeeere we go again.

I never cease to be astonished at the filth spewed from the lips of these angry white men whose sense of white male entitlement has been ruffled... so now they're waving their stupid guns around and having this big-ass hissy fit because they know they're not the top of the ole dung heap anymore. Wah. Just breaks m' heart. These guys have it in for everyone; that is, everyone who isn't anglo, white, gentile, heterosexual and male... which means, basically, most of humanity these guys hold in contempt. No matter how big or how awful this common enemy we share, it'll never make us allies. Nope, not even a teensie-weensie bit.

And I hear ya Loren, I too am glad I am old. However even as I head into my mid sixties, I could still have many years left. At the clinic today, I got the results of last week's blood test; numbers were pretty damn good: cholesterol 156, blood pressure 110/60... Shit, I might live to be over 100 like Great Granny! Uh-oh. Given the times, that could be a real mixed blessing. - Aliceinwonderland

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

I just discovered an interesting video that nora posted over on the "Community" site. She posts a link to a video of two of King Abdullah's (Saudi Arabia) young, but adult, daughters who used the internet to send their video to the world telling how their father is holding them captive in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. They speak English very well. The King has 30 wives and about 40 children. One wife, I think the girl's mother divorce the King and is now living in London. Good for her!

The King has told the girls that when he dies, the brothers will keep the girls imprisoned till they die. But, I am very much afraid for the girl's lives because when girls shame families over there the men kill them.

And the US doesn't seem to care that Obama meets with, shakes the hand of, such a beast! The US has no problem calling other countries like N. Korea or Iran violators of human rights. But they turn a blind eye toward the human rights committed by their good buddy the King of Saudi Arabia? What hypocrites!


Kend's picture
Kend 8 years 47 weeks ago

Palin the girls have English accents I wonder why they didn't go with the mother to London. They must have spent a lot of time here. She might of had to bale with out them. But how could she. She must of know he would do this.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

kend: I don't know if they ever traveled to London or anywhere else. There are a lot of English speaking expatriates that live and work all over Saudi Arabia, except the holy cities of Mecca or Medina which it is forbidden for non-muslims to enter. But a lot of English speaking Muslims go there for pilgrimage. But there are TV broadcasts in English as well. I lived and worked in Dhahran over 30+ years ago and Aramco had it's own English channel and we could also receive stations from Qatar that had some English programs. But that was on the East coast (the Arabian or Persian Gulf side) of Saudi Arabia. Jeddah (where the girls are currently being held) is on the west coast..the Red Sea side. I didn't get how long they've been held prisoner in Jeddah...I suppose they could have lived in other places in Saudi Arabia or maybe even abroad at earlier times in their lives. Who knows?

I doubt that they have the choice to live with their mother in London....as they are being held prisoner in Jeddah. I've heard of other situations where American girls have married and had children with guys from these countries who, when they get a divorce, the guys steal the children away to these countries and it is very difficult for the mother to get them back.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 47 weeks ago

David in Vegas says: "Thom, just because you say it is so (about Conservatives) does not make it true. You do not understand the conservative way of thinking so you are a poor judge of the how/what/why of our thinkingness." So Dave, what exactly do you mean by "it", as in "it is so"? How about being more specific?

"Bringing the Koch brothers in to the mix is simply absurd," says David in Vegas, "but you are trying to sling any possible situation, as mud, to try and tarnish the reputations of those gentlemen." Here's a news flash for ya, David. A fascist oligarch is no gentleman.

Frankly I can't stand listening to most talk radio because it is nothing but divisive, toxic garbage, by the same angry little white men described in my last post. Yet it is one of those rare progressives with a voice out there who you chastise for being "dishonest". To call this ironic would be an understatement. Republicans block everything that could benefit this country, along with 99% of its people, yet it's the Democrats you've accused of incompetence. After the mess Reagan and the Bushies left behind, it is Obama you blame for everything. President Obama probably inherited the biggest mess of any newly elected president since Lincoln.

I'm no fan of Obama or the Democrats either. But to my ears at least, you discredit yourself by omitting the "Party of No" from your rant about Congress, as if the Repugs' shit didn't stink. That party has been the bane of our existence. I'm talking about those who consistently vote in lockstep against our interests, who think depriving people of things like food stamps, Social Security, unemployment and the benefits of healthcare reform is okay, and who legislate accordingly. Those who think harassing, frisking and shooting at black people without provocation is okay, and legislate accordingly. Republicans also think women should be paid less for their work, that women should be deprived of birth control as well as abortion, and legislate accordingly. I've even heard Republicans suggest that jail is the appropriate destination for anyone suffering a miscarriage, that a miscarriage is tantamount to murder. They seem to think they can tell us what "legitimate rape" is, too. Just gets crazier and crazier on the Republican side of the isle. Racism, misogyny… two classic symptoms of encroaching fascism, so much of that filth poisoning our airwaves from the likes of Rush & Glenn. They also think it's okay for oil companies to contaminate our water supplies and subject us to earthquakes and explosions and massive oil spills- not to mention eminent domain and endless war- while they legislate accordingly. They've seen to it that we not be allowed to know what's in our food, or where it comes from. They've been in lockstep and on the wrong side of every goddam thing set before them to legislate on. At least the Dems get it right once in a while. The Republicans, never. And by the way, it's the Republican presidents who trashed this economy.

Even with pond scum like Rush & Beck out there on talk radio, and so many others like them, it is Thom you chastise. Hah! Save it, pal. - Alice IW

stecoop01's picture
stecoop01 8 years 47 weeks ago

The revolution is coming. The United States is going to fall apart, and probably with a lot of spilled blood.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 47 weeks ago

Palin says, regarding those militia freaks stopping people on the highway: "These people aren't uniformed policemen... probably just normal clothes.... what would most people think if someone like that tries to stop you on the highway? That they are armed killer madmen who could kill you? So why wouldn't using your vehicle in self-defense be a good idea?" And PD, I think that's an excellent idea. Just mow the assholes down: splat-splat! I'm not into violence unless I'm threatened, at which point it's me versus the aggressor. And if it's me versus them, and they started it, that makes them game. Like PD, I say it with no apologies.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

By the way, if you are wondering exactly where Cliven Bundy's ranch is located in Nevada, besides that it is near Bunkerville then here it is:
The exact coordinates that you can copy and paste into Google Earth: 36°44'10.29"N 114°13'13.28"W
It sits at the intersection of Riverside Rd and Foster La near the bridge that crosses the Virgin River. You can even do a Street View and virtually walk across that bridge. But that's not the bridge where the standoff was.

I was also looking at a pdf map of Petroleum-Data-Clark-County-Nevada.pdf to see if there is anything to the current claims by some that what this is really about is that the US Government wants to confiscate this BLM land for the purpose of fracking. That's another conspiracy theory now going around. And that map shows that in that particular area around the Bundy ranch there is no oil or gas indicated in that area. So, I think that is another conspiracy down the tubes.


Let's face it...this battle between Cliven Bundy and the BLM has been going on for 20 years..since 1993...it has nothing to do with anything else, fracking..solar panels...or anything like that. It has to do with Cliven Bundy being obstinate and greedy refusing to pay his debt to the BLM for grazing fees. Even the turtles subject came in 1998, five years after the initial dispute. So it, initially, had nothing to do with turtles.

SHFabian's picture
SHFabian 8 years 47 weeks ago

Who would be fighting whom? The rich have very successfully divided the "masses," pitting the middle class against the poor. In a country that shipped out a huge number of working class jobs, and then wiped out welfare, there are a whole lot of poor people. What the rich are now doing to the middle class is what the middle class already did to the poor -- often using the same "justifications." That's what makes this era unique and unpredictable.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

Bureau of Land Management
[LLNVS03100 L13400000.PQ0000; 13–
08807; MO# 4500054217; TAS 14X5017]
Notice Seeking Public Interest for
Solar Energy Development on Public
Lands in the Dry Lake Solar Energy
Zone in Clark County, NV
Bureau of Land Management

The Bureau of Land
Management (BLM) Southern Nevada
District is seeking expressions of
interest in proposing projects for utility-
scale solar energy development on
approximately 5,717 acres of public
land identified as the Dry Lake Solar
Energy Zone (SEZ) in Clark County,


And the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone (SEZ) in Clark County, NV is located here:
About 40 miles SW of the Bundy Ranch and at the intersection of US 15 and Hwy 93...and it is even on the opposite side of US 15..not on the same side of US 15 as is Bundy's ranch..

I do see another proposed solar project on the Mormon Mesa which is located only about 16 miles SSW of the Bundy ranch and on the same side of US 15 as the Bundy ranch. Here's the coordinates:
36°30'59.97"N 114°22'33.31"W
Hmmmm.... On page 2 of 2, 7th row down is Bright Source Energy Solar Partners that wants to put a 10,000 acres of Solar at that location. And 10,000 acres is about 4 miles square. For that to fit on that mesa, it would have to be as close to the Bundy ranch as, at most, 10 miles.

They want to put a CSP (Concentrated Solar Power) and tower technology there. I believe that's where they have all of these solar reflectors that all point the sun's rays to a central tower collector. And then, there is the matter of giant transmission lines...which way would they go toward the Bundy ranch then on towards St. Georges, UT or south toward Las Vegas ..maybe both directions. Bundy's ranch would be right in line.

So, there might be something to this after all. It's on the same side of US 15 as the Bundy ranch and the farthest point, which goes to a point (as it is delta shaped..more like an acute angle) is only 16 miles from the Bundy ranch and that mesa looks like it is fairly level all the way to Bundy's ranch.. a good place to graze Bundy's cows.


What do you know?! the Bright Source Energy Solar Partners are: Alstom, Google, Bechtel, Chevron, and NRG. And GE just bought the French company Alstom according to an article from 14 hours ago.


And NRG is a Fortune 500 Solar company.

Maybe these companies wouldn't want a bunch of dirty cows raising up a lot of dust and itching themselves against any of these solar reflectors? The dust would cut down on the reflectivity of those mirror reflectors.

And these are all very powerful companies..who buy politicians. I am beginning to think that there might be something to this after all. Maybe this has less to do with preserving desert turtles and more with preserving..or increasing...the assets of some rich and powerful companies and their shareholders. After all if it had something to do with Bundy owing the BLM money why did it take all these years to finally do something about it unless someone, like rich and powerful companies, decided that that would be a good place to put a solar collection energy farm?

And I'm also wondering just how reliable the data is from Snopes.com who is supposed to squash urban legends. Are they bought off as well or just inept?

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 47 weeks ago

I had previously made mention of that conservative Breitbart quote that snopes.com used to dispel a conspiracy on the part of solar companies and now I see that this part of the quote: "While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada." is itself inaccurate. The area east of Overton, which is in the Moapa Valley, is the Mormon Mesa. The Breitbart statement confirms that the area east of Overton, ie: the Mormon Mesa, the place where the Solar companies want to put the solar tower and mirrors, is the place where Bundy grazed his cows. Google Earth shows that Overton is only 18 miles from Bundy's ranch and the Mormon Mesa, farthest rim in line with Overton, is only about 15 miles from Bundy's ranch. So, Bundy's cows did graze in that area and that is the area where those companies want to put the solar arrays that will take 10,000 sq acres which is 4 sq. miles. And because you can't fit an actual 4 sq. miles in an irregular area of the mesa, it has to either be an irregular 4 sq. miles or the whole thing has to move toward Bundy's ranch. I think it will be as close as 8 to 10 miles from Bundy's ranch.

Breitbart: " the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton"

... which isn't true because Overton isn't over 20 miles from Bundy's ranch it's only 18 miles from Bundy's ranch. And it is 3 miles from Overton to the rim of the mesa. The leased area couldn't have been more that 15 or 16 miles from Bundy's ranch because the mesa rim, in line with Overton, is only 15 miles from Bundy's ranch.

That the Mormon Mesa is where Bundy grazed his cattle and is the exact same place where they want to put solar arrays hardly dispels that idea. It proves it!

So, why would Brietbart, a conservative mouthpiece, want to discredit the idea that solar companies are the real reason why the government is now making problems for Bundy? Well, it should be obvious, shouldn't it? Conservatives side with big companies. And governments get bought off by them. And the little people get stepped on!

Everything I've said here is not a wild unsupported conspiracy theory...most all of these links I've provided are .gov...government documents...that prove what I say is true.
note: The application to the BLM for that solar site at Mormon Mesa was received on 1/28/2008 and hasn't yet been approved (as of Nov 1, 2013..the date of that document).

Kend's picture
Kend 8 years 47 weeks ago

Palin thanks for the info. There does seem to be a lot of things that make no sense here. I think Bundy is just a farmer who doesn't want to leave a home and business his family has run since the 1800's. He just got caught in the middle of a solar boom. Bundy has a point though. His families lease was done well before the BLM and was done with the state Not the Feds.

Alice. one side note all of this racist behaviour we have seen lately has mostly been done by old white guys and they don't live forever. Hopefully it will die with that generation.

the clippers owner was about 80 with a 30 something girl. What could go wrong there. What a idiot.

rs allen 8 years 47 weeks ago


Simply shocking, we have racists in America. This is news?

No Bundy's family never did have any deal with the state of Nevada. When Nevada was admitted as a state those territorial lands were relinquished to the federal government. So his family could have never had any kind of pact with the state of Neveda.

And if he thinks he wants to stand on ancestrial rights I think it's grand he willing to fight for those lands to be returned to the Paiute, Shoshone and Washoe tribes.

anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 47 weeks ago

The stupidity of the right winger militia and supporters is the same as that which causes Americans to vote against their own well being. The exact things they complain about are the ones they support. It's the corporations that started the anti government movement and it's the removal of government that caused the corporate rise in our society and did the working people. Removing government only removes the democracy from society and gives corporations autocratic control of it.

An essential componant of the corporations' anti government campaign is the divisive strategy of fomenting racial, ethnic and other animosities and mongering fear of those groups. This is what causes Americans to vote against their well being and to oppose democratic government. Some years past, on the anniversary of the Oklahoma City, Murrah Federal Building bombing, a prominent Jewish organization issued a statement saying that the right wing militia groups are against the Federal Government because it protects the rights of all people and not just white, protestant heterosexuals.

anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 46 weeks ago

Never mind

anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 46 weeks ago

Dave in Vegas, the thinkingness of conservatives is not hard to figure out and comprehend. It's quite simple, really.

You, Dave, are denying obvious truths. The Kochs and people like them are behind these media campaigns and are in control of Congress - and Republicans are in control of the Senate with dirty politics and abuse of the filibuster. Yesterday the minnimum wage increase couldn't pass with a 54 vote majority.

Why do you shill for those "gentlemen", the Kochs? They are undeniably scoundrels.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

Mark says "It's the corporations that started the anti government movement and it's the removal of government that caused the corporate rise in our society… Removing government only removes the democracy from society and gives corporations autocratic control of it." BINGO. - Alice IW

anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 46 weeks ago

Dave, we do listen to talk radio. What do you think Thom is? You need to listen to talk radio. You won't learn anything listening to the right wing nonsense though. Their statements are almost always, quite easily, demonstrably false.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

Conservative "thinkingness" all boils down to this: "Corporations are people my friend" and "Government is evil" and "Me first; screw you" and "Me-me-me!" - AIW

chuckle8's picture
chuckle8 8 years 46 weeks ago

dave -- just because you say our democratic senate and president are incompetent it doesn't make it so.

If you would listen to Thom and actually read any of these blogs you would realize the destruction of our economy is due to the 390 filibusters by the the republican party.

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 46 weeks ago

Will the miltiamen at Bundy's ranch now declare the Oath Keepers to be deserters and traitors to their cause and shoot them? Will there be a small Bundy civil war? Seems the one half of those who were willing to stand up in an armed rebellion against the government, the Oath Keepers got word that the government was about to strike the Bundy ranch with a drone strike. The Oath Keepers reneged on their "Oaths" to protect Bundy and made like chickens and got the Cluck outta there...leaving the militia to fume over it.

Will there be a drone strike on the Bundy ranch? I've seen the ranch from Google Earth Street view and it looks like a big junk yard. It is certainly not the Ponderosa for sure. Even the main house, I think it is the main house, looks rather tiny and about to fall down. Most of the buildings look like they should have been torn down at the turn of the century. There are all kinds of old vehicles, boats, etc. Most of what Bundy's 100 acres that he actually owns is used to grow melons. Doesn't look like there is any barn that would even come close to housing 900 cattle...which is why they just run wild on the BLM land...perhaps with a Bundy brand on them.


Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

"...got the cluck out..." "...not the Ponderosa..." PD, you crack me up. Keep 'em rolling! - AIW

Palindromedary's picture
Palindromedary 8 years 46 weeks ago


anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 46 weeks ago

Just like them, they say they're against government, want freedom but then they remove democratic government and establish a private tyranny where everybody has to show their papers at regular check points.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

They're lucky they haven't encountered someone like me driving towards one of their little "checkpoints". I'd put pedal-to-metal and go blazing through there so hard & fast, they'd have to jump aside or get creamed. Just the thought of encountering such a thing is enough to raise my blood pressure a few notches. Goddam gestapo pigs... just who do they think they are?!!! - AIW

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 8 years 46 weeks ago
Quote Aliceinwonderland:Goddam gestapo pigs... just who do they think they are?!!! - AIW

Aliceinwonderland ~ I think you did answered your own question... That is, they are a bunch of "Goddamn gestapo pigs." Possibly more like a bunch of vendictive, racist, neonazis who want to save the country from that 'colored' President.

If this standoff could possibly represent anything more Mr. Bundy would never have made such an ass out of himself with his racist diatribe and this entire matter would be pending a court date and flying way under the radar. That's my two cents.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

Thanks Marc.

On his radio show recently, Thom said these "checkpoints" are not only illegitimate; they're illegal. So why haven't these militia bullies been arrested, then?!

Even the so-called "legit" ones infuriate me. Years ago when we were travelling musicians touring the country, we got stuck in a long line of bumper-to-bumper traffic, behind what turned out to be some sort of drug-enforcement checkpoint bullshit with cops and sniffer dogs. (Sieg heil!) Just so happened we had pot on us, although we managed to get through the ordeal unscathed. But this sort of shit really sticks in my craw. Warrantless searches are bloody unconstitutional. - Aliceinwonderland

rs allen 8 years 46 weeks ago

I think we missed a good opportunity to round up some dangerous people. We had a mess of them all in one place. Now they're dissipating back into the population at large to continue spreading their insane ideas.

Round them up now, throw their sorry a**es into jail and try them for treason or as the terrorists they are.

anarchist cop out's picture
anarchist cop out 8 years 46 weeks ago

Now, now rs allen, we can't play Gestapo either and just round up people we don't like.

rs allen 8 years 46 weeks ago

Nah, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.

Before this they were just a bunch of wanna be 'let's continue fighting the civil war' wackos.

Now though in this case they've done a might more than talking a bunch of bs around the camp fire. They've directly threatened the federal government with deadly force.

It's easy enough to dislike that crew for a number of reasons, but my feelings about the situation don't have anything to do with those reasons. Rather those feelings are about the actual armed confrontation against the United States of America.

Letting them to get away with it will only lead to more serious trouble down the road.

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 8 years 46 weeks ago
Quote Aliceinwonderland:So why haven't these militia bullies been arrested, then?!

Aliceinwonderland ~ I think Thom answered that in the title of this blog, they are a bunch of useful idiots.

You are so right about mentioning any checkpoints as being unlawful. We are rapidly turning into Nazi Germany. If anything allowing these checkpoints to go on uncontested is a way to set the president that there is nothing wrong with them. If you ask me the elites are itching to set these things up everywhere. The more wealth they accumulate the more they will fear it being taken away from them. That is why this accumulation of wealth is a point of no return for us all. Until then, they are itching to set the precedent that private industry trumps public lands. To do that they want Bundy to look like some kind of a folk hero. How low have we sunk? All I have to say is they better never even think about touching our public parks or they will have a real problem on their hands.

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

I think they've already started to decimate our public parks. I can't remember any specifics (what companies, what parks), but I could swear I've caught wind of some fossil fuel company wanting to drill somewhere public.... like the Grand Canyon? Wish I could remember who and where... oh well. - AIW

DAnneMarc's picture
DAnneMarc 8 years 46 weeks ago

Aliceinwonderland ~ They haven't touched the parks here in Oakland yet. Actually we just spent the afternoon in one. They are truly a national treasure. Everyone here feels the same way. They even pick up after their dogs. It is amazing how many dogs come to our parks yet you won't find excrement anywhere. Just imagine if we patrol our parks to that extent what the good people of Oaktown would do to some fat corporations sticking their nose into those treasured sanctuaries. You think the feds have their hands full with the Bundy Brigade?

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

Marc dear comrade, I may be an athiest but it grieves me to live in a culture where nothing is sacred. I may not be inclined to worship a god or diety, but I've worshipped other things like mountains and rivers. - AIW

Aliceinwonderland's picture
Aliceinwonderland 8 years 46 weeks ago

P.S. Enough of Bundy already! Nothin' personal, Marc; it's just that I'm all Bundied out. Know what I mean?

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