Unfortunately, many police agency's have developed a "Shoot first and don"t answer questions later" attitude; and that's fueling the hatred toward cops, which, in turn, is further increasing the "shoot first..." attitude.

All police agency's need to have a civillian oversite committee, and all members of that committee would have term limits and be elected, NOT APPOINTED. It's the only way we're going to return sanity and civility to the law enforcement profession.

One distinction that gets lost is that the protests were about the lack of an arrest and trial for the killers of the young black men. You can bet that if the killer of the policemen had not taken his own life, he would have been immediately arrested, tried for murder and executed.

All killings are tragic. The justice system handles kilings of policemen, but not killings by policemen. That's why there are protests about one kind of killing and not the other.

People like Giuliani say it is the fault of Obama, Democrats, protesters of police brutality, etc., that the two cops were murdered. I ask, how is it that somebody with a history like that of the killer was able to get a gun? I blame the NRA for the murder of the two cops, and thousands of other deaths per year.

It is a sad day when I agree with Mike Barnacle and Rudy Guiliani and disagree with Thom. My mother and father were police officers so I take it personally when police officers are killed. I will always support the police.

POLICE used to take oaths to "Protect and Serve the masses." Now it has become "Enforce the Law and save yourself when you have an inkling that you might be in danger." Black people and people with darker skin are more likely to be mistaken as someone likely to be carrying a weapon, but sadly most are not held responsible for being afraid for their lives. We seem to be training a bunch of wussies, instead of training Law Officers to stay strong, wear their vests, and not shoot people you only suspect of having a weapon. A lot more of us will die because of fear from those who are supposed to be well-trained. America is going nuts. Where on earth are the brave officers who take more than 3 seconds to make a wise decision?!

To say "why is no one protesting the cop murders?" is racist and stupid. Who would be the target of the protest? The killer? He's dead. If there had been vidio and then he had been caught and then not charged by a grand jury, that would be a reason for a protest. Then the protesters would likely be made up of cops and mostly white citizens. That would never happen because the cops likely would have murdered the shooter so he could not go to trial and plead insanity even if he tried to surrender. The cops would have their stories (lies) together. The protesters are not to blame. The media is not to blame. Let's put blame where where it belongs. First the lone shooter is to blame. Second is our supreme court who interprets the second amendment, that was designed to protect our country from a foreign invasion with the help of a citizen army, by saying that it says that everyone can carry guns, nevermind the part about a "WELL REGULATED MALITA". Has it occured to anyone in our government that this amendment is obsolete and should be changed because now we spend billions of dollars every year on a standing military to protect us and now there's no chance a private citizen is going to be called upon to protect this country with his HUNTING RIFEL? Third is our system of how we police the police, When a police officer stands accused of violating a citizens rights, HIS FRIENDS, the prossicutor and fellow officers most often will make sure the officer will not be charged with any crime, no matter what the officer has done or who the officer has murdered unless it's another cop. Cops harrass and illeagaly search people every day, not all cops, not all police forces, but in some places it's routine, usually where there are a lot of black targets to choose from. This has to stop. Cops trying to find reasons to arrest people for the sake of getting a big number of arrests on their record has to stop too. Most cops are very good people but in some police forces they need to do a better job of acting like their job is to protect everyone, even the people they must arrest. The fourth reason the two cops were murdered is OUTRAGE caused by a rash of vidios of cops shooting and killing people when they didn't have to.

I have enjoyed reading most of what Thom Hartmann has proposed and elaborated upon in the past even though I have disagreed with some of it but this is a poorly directed and shallow document. Thom and most responders who have agreed with this premise have failed to recognize the complexity of the issue.

Yes, police officers can be heavy handed and their should be public input into the regulation of their behavior and practice. However, there has been no mention of the difficulties faced by police officers nor an exploration of the differences between big city officers and small town officers. There has been no recognition of the heroism that officers display every day for the public.

They do a job that none of the responders (nor Thom) have have chosen to do. At least, none have stated it as their profession. Therefore, none have any idea what it is like to be charged with enforcing law that the public has chosen to legislate through the electoral process. Worse, none of the responders sound as thought they have experience with street combat, which is what officers face every day. Most people turn their backs and run (wisely) in the face of aggression. Police officers do not have that luxury. Furthermore, none appear to have any experience with combat (armed or unarmed) and the celerity with which it occurs nor with the speed with which a blow to the head can change your life.

I state this because it is obvious that Thom and his supporters are sitting upon some very high horses. You are failing to recognize the changes that come to one's mind and body when facing these situations. There is no way to avoid these changes and the only way to adapt to them is to require counseling for the officers and ongoing training. Granted, this is a tough thing to require in their culture but, require it non the less.

But, back to the idea of heroism. I have personally seen police officers reach into burning cars to pull out children still strapped into car seats after a crash. I have seen them come out of burning buildings before we firefighters run in with all our fire gear. I have seen them beaten up and bloodied after fighhting and subduing a drug induced psychotic black man who was threatening the public (they did not shoot him).

They have a different mentality than most of the general population and they live by a VERY different code than the vast majority of us. Do we need to continue with the efforts to deepen civilian control over the putative emergence of a police state? YES.

But to naively state that police should not be seen as heros is shallow and, quite honestly, weak.

They do a job that Thom has opted NOT to do. More importantly, we all benefit from the fulfillment of their duties and we need to show them respect and appreciation for that daily. After my time in the Peace Corps I can say with confidence that, without their efforts and blood, our country would be no better than any other third world country with its concomittant chaos and corruption. If you really want to fight against oppression then fight agains corporate control of government because THAT is the most corrosive agent of democracy. That is the coming oppressor of your freedoms.

eatraum, I agree with some of what you've written, but CHOKING ERIC GARNER until he was UNCONCIOUS and then NOT DOING CPR (or letting bystanders do it) is pretty cold & unforgiveable. Or, did we all miss something?

And, I GENERALLY ADMIRE & RESPECT COPS, honest cops that is.

But, we all know that cops are using TASERS and PEPPER SPRAY on OLD LADIES now. So, if a TRUST has been BROKEN, just WHO BROKE IT?

And yes, cops have "chosen" their careers. They also choose to be in UNIONS. And, then choose to keep other unions, the working poor, and the middle class in their place.

They choose to blindly enforce laws that CORPORATIONS (and their LOBBYISTS) have BRIBED obviously CORRUPT POLITICIANS to pass.

And, when the CORPORATE CONTROL OF GOVERNMENT that you mention occurs, just WHO WILL MAKE IT ALL POSSIBLE? WHO WILL BE THE "STORM TROOPERS" OF CORPORATE AMERICA?

Who indeed.

But, CORPORATE CONTROL of our "democracy" IS ALREADY HERE. They own the Supreme Court and most of our politicians. And, corporate lawyers are literally writing the bills that politicians introduce.

Corporate operatives "lead" the government agencies that are supposed to protect us.

Corporations and their employees spy on us on behalf of the government, and in their own interest.

Corporations build electronic voting machines and design the rigged "proprietary" software they run on.

And, corporations own the "mainstream" news media which parrot GOP talking points and knowingly lie to us on a regular basis.

So, in 2014, most eligible Americans were apparently either too stupid or lazy to vote.

Or, perhaps they've peeked behind the curtain and finally decided (in exhaustion) to stop participating in such a rigged game.

TPP will be the last straw.

Then, it's Game Over.

Tom I love you, but the miltiarization of the police goes much farther back than 911. And I mean much farther back, like you can tenously place it anywhere between WATS and war on drugs. Experts on this will qubble as to exactly where it started. Suffice it to say, Daryl Gates truly is the gift that keeps on giving.

Regardless, the legal background for a lot of this goes also much father back than 911, like to the early years of the Warren court.

911 is the day that many people finally noticed, but seriously, I would expect you to know that this goes much father back.

Can it be reversed? Yes, and I think we are starting to see signs that peopel both within and outside law enforcement realize change is needed. There will be a lot of resistance too, but the kinds of changes needed will be rather scary. The first step is truly learning how miltitarized the police has become, and it is not just the MRAPs, though the local one meant for a school district, was returend after we broke how miltiarized the local police was.

http://reportingsandiego.com/2014/08/27/how-militarized-are-san-diego-po...

We could not find where the MRAP went to, local public station did, and they were forced to give it back.

Nadin

editor reportingsandiego.com

Fuzzyboo,

I agree many of your points as well. We are most definately in a complex pickle as a society. But, to our discussion I go.

There are many details and examples of injustice , brutality and over reaction on both sides. However, generalized reactionary and vitriolic animadversion will serve no one but the profferers of discord. Leaders must be calm and strategic. They must stand above the fray and look at the battle, searching for a way to end the conflict with mutually beneficial potential. To do this a leader has to be able to see the positives in his adversary and work with those just as he or she fights against the negatives.

I still disagree with Mr. Hartmann's contention that officers should not be seen as heroes in our society.

I think you would agree that, while many officers are overreaching in their use of authority, most are disciplined and hard working risk takers who see their duty as that of holding society to the laws that have been passed by our legislators. I certainly agree with you that corporations have gained control of our government and that police officers are tasked with enforcement of those laws generated on their behalf. History has shown that this slow descent into fascism will continue until the pain becomes so great that the majority of the populace is moved to action. VOTING is our best action and we have to take accountability for the lack thereof. Contiuing to focus on the actions of the police is a tactical mistake. By vewing the police as our adversaries we cannot concentrate on the true adversary, which is, of course, the corporations and their owners; the 1%.

I have been on the street for many years and I know the risks that police officers take. Criticism is certainly due but they are heroic to me and I, personally, think it is the weak of character who live the life we have in America but become censorius of all officers due to highly publicized actions of a small percentage of them.

My main, tactical point in our discussion is that we need to recognize the benefits that police bring to our lives and appreciate the risks they take. My strategic point is that it serves us to see the police as a representation of us as a society and that we need, as you expertly described, to focus on the true source of our growing dilemma; fascism. Enmity divides. Patience and strategic empathy unite.

Thank you for challenging my in my comments. I appreciate your input and thought.

Ed

Reply to posts #13 & #19: Eatraum, you’ve repeatedly pointed out the obvious: that policing is a difficult job, one that most of us have not elected to do. Nobody’s going to argue those points, least of all me. BUT what is also true is the fact that no one is forced at gunpoint to enter that profession either. And what these various murder-by-cop incidents have proven, time & again, is that (1) We still have a race problem in America, and a class war, simultaneously influencing how police work is practiced in our communities; (2) Whatever "training" these officers-in-training received was inadequate; (3) Policing, as a profession, is attracting people with the wrong attitude and temperament for the job; and (4) Too many racist bullies with loose trigger fingers are wearing the badge. These guys are clearly not “serving” or “protecting” those they are supposed to be serving and protecting. Intimidation and control is more like it. And there is no reason why any unarmed person should EVER have to be shot. There are plenty of non-lethal means cops could be using to apprehend their subjects, so why aren’t they using them?

The obvious solution to item #4 is to have police officers serving the communities they live in, where they have a rapport with the residents of those communities and a personal stake in the outcomes of their own police work. I’ve heard and read this point made up, down and sideways, via more sources than I could possibly recall. So why haven’t policies like this been established? A question worthy of further scrutiny.

Beyond that, there needs to be a much more rigorous screening process for policing candidates, to weed out predators of all stripes: the racists, the misogynists, the perverts, along with standard, run-of-the-mill bullies and control freaks. These types of personalities are attracted to policing for obvious reasons. They are the ones giving policing a bad name. The militarization of police departments doesn’t help either. Decked out and armed like military invaders, these guys act as though they were occupiers in a foreign country, and tend to treat people accordingly, more as enemy combatants than as citizens... ESPECIALLY in communities of color. This is enormously destructive to the society at large. It plays a major role in what is poisoning race relations in this country. Keeps those old xenophobic attitudes reinforced on both sides of the proverbial tracks. I believe this benefits only a small elite class of kleptofascists whose interests are best served by keeping the "masses" divided, at each other's throats and therefore, too distracted to recognize the magnitude of what is being taken from us and destroyed.

The behavior of the police often is what triggers any violence that occurs. I’ve seen it over and over again at peaceful protests, where no crimes are being committed prior to police attacks. It is disgusting. But it is worth remembering that stirring up trouble at peaceful demonstrations serves the same interests as stop-and-frisk type policies. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, in person as well as on video, where people get attacked by police officers, with little to no provocation. Between that and racial profiling, and the stop-and-frisk types of policies and practices targeting people of color (decided by city legislatures, by the way, not by the public; often not with the public's best interests in mind), we see ample opportunity for bad cops to abuse the power entrusted to them. And what about the horrible crimes committed by those men wearing the badge, who should never have entered that profession in the first place?! And why should the blemishes bad cops leave on policing’s public image surprise anyone paying attention to all this?

What’s going on in our country today is a class war in which racism helps fuel the flames. Unfortunately these militarized police forces have played a major role in that ongoing drama, where real lives are destroyed on a daily basis and often arbitrarily; where ramming down people’s doors in the wee hours of the morning, terrorizing and shooting them in their own homes constitutes business as usual. The seizure & forfiture of people’s personal property by the police, often without evidence, let alone charge or trial, is indefensible. This sort of "police work" would be unacceptable in any genuinely decent, civilized society. It constitutes theft with impunity on the part of “law enforcement”, further eroding the credability of the police in the eyes of the policed. It clearly is an abuse of power. This kind of shit has got to stop if there is ever to be a relationship of trust and mututal respect, between police and the communities they “serve”.

Abuse inflicted on the public by bad cops, however many or few there are, is a reality we ignore only at our peril if a free & open society is what we really want. I’m talking about murders, rapes and torture committed by police officers, on prisoners of both sexes, hardly unheard of in this grrreat country. I’m talking about unarmed black men arbitrarily executed in the streets, usually in broad daylight, with no indictments let alone prosecutions ever forthcoming on these trigger-happy cops. Is our outrage over that not justified?

When your answer to that, eatraum, is to defensively remind us that good cops exist, you’re not telling us anything most of us don’t already know. And it’s not helpful, because the problem persists despite the fact that good cops exist. Yes there are good cops performing their duties well, even with heroism, in behalf of others caught in some of the most perilous circumstances imaginable. But the fact remains, there’s enough bad policing going on to make its presence known, thus showing by example that as a society, we have a problem. The so-called “war on drugs” (translation: war on drug users, especially in poor communities of color) has been a major factor in that equasion.

The solutions to such problems don’t seem all that complicated. But as usual, politics gets in the way. I believe these kinds of issues involving the police are symptomatic of something much larger, but I’ll save that for another conversation. - AIW

Oh bullshit, Matt. Pre-segregation, my ass. How about people's right to representation? Communities are best served by those living in those communities. Like I pointed out already, this generates rapport and a sense of trust between the officer and those under his (or her) watch. A community needs the presence of law enforcement officers with a personal stake in that community. It’s a win-win for both the police and the policed. By dragging firemen, teachers, garbagemen and so on into this, Matt, you are only watering down the focus of the discussion. Firemen, teachers and garbagemen don’t go around armed with pistols in holsters, nor do they have the power to arrest and detain people on the streets. Gimmie a break.

So, when was the last time people protested when people are killed by criminals? So, Joe Blow down the street was murdered by another Joe Blow who broke into his home and raped his family then killed the occupants. How many people are going to block traffic over that? What about the many thousands of people who get murdered by guns, knives, clubs, poisoned, etc? If it were not for the police, there would be absolute chaos with many more victims. We would all be huddled in fear. The biggest and most brutish would rule us all. There would be no enforceable laws.

I don't worship the police but I realize that without a police force that will strike fear in the minds of criminals, they are very close to being totally irrelevant as a protector of the people. Some criminals just don't respect anyone of authority if they know that all they are going to do is to ask them nicely to obey the law. And when many of those criminals, or would-be criminals, get all psyched up with rap music that has lyrics about killing cops and raping women then how do you think they will turn out?

Most law-abiding people don't have to worry about police brutality or being killed by them. But the criminals just love it when they can get the police to be on the defensive. It serves the criminals very well. Just a moment of hesitation might mean that the criminal can kill that officer before the officer can kill him/her. And that criminal will stay on the streets to possibly rape, rob, or kill other victims. If you don't mind having so many criminals lurking out there then don't even bother about calling the police. You don't like the police...remember?

It's easy for someone to say that a cop should be like Mr. Rogers..."oh, won't you be my neighbor?". Or, like a frustrated and conflicted parent trying to correct an obstreperous child with useless and unheeded pleas of submission and guilt. Perhaps they will even try the old Santa Claus or God is watching you trick...great ways of introducing paranoia in a person. Hit them with the old superstitions where the antagonists are never seen or heard but imagined. But, the fear of the paddle is way more effective and is a more realistic lesson that will be useful later on in life.

If you are a law abiding person, you won't challenge the police in any way, not sassing them, acting smart, acting like you are guilty and have something to hide, etc. The police pick up on that right off and it is usually a sure sign that the person is a criminal. It is their duty to catch criminals. So they have to look for the signs that criminals typically show. If you have a problem with the police, signing a traffic ticket for example, then don't be stupid and try to argue with them or refuse to sign the ticket. If you escalate the tension with the police, it will never work out in your favor. Take it up in court later.

Quote Palindromedary:If you are a law abiding person, you won't challenge the police in any way, not sassing them, acting smart, acting like you are guilty and have something to hide, etc. The police pick up on that right off and it is usually a sure sign that the person is a criminal. It is their duty to catch criminals. So they have to look for the signs that criminals typically show. If you have a problem with the police, signing a traffic ticket for example, then don't be stupid and try to argue with them or refuse to sign the ticket. If you escalate the tension with the police, it will never work out in your favor. Take it up in court later.

Palindromedary ~ Why don't you just hand over your dick to the nearest law enforcement professional? What ever happened to the Palindromedary who wanted to fight fire with fire? What ever happened to the Palindromedary who wanted to let the authorities know that they are treading on thin ice? What ever happened to the Palindromedary who had balls?

You want us to believe that everything will be fine as long as we cooperate with law enforcement? Than what is the problem? We've been cooperating haven't we? You and I, the white people. What do we have to fear? We know how to behave, don't we? Or, do you???

We are all in this boat together! We will either float together, or sink together! You be the judge. I'm gonna swim for the side who floats. Adios, Pendejos!!

Quote DAnneMarc:What ever happened to the Palindromedary who had balls?

The fact is that there are very few people, of all skin colors, who suffer rough treatment by the police unless they have done something to deserve it. But those few who are roughed up by the police makes all police look bad especially if there is a concerted effort by some people to make them all look bad based upon what a few have done. And the criminals just love it!

In effect, the people demonstrating against the police are helping out the criminals that have victimized, or will one day victimize, them. And what are they going to do then? Call the police? It will backfire on them! Most law-abiding people know that the MB case, but not so much the EG case, was a bad example of police brutality. There have been much better examples of police brutality. And when the demonstrators go out and block the streets, so people can't go home after work, they will lose any hope of support from those that are being blocked and those of others seeing it on TV.

Palindromedary ~ (Post 28 and 29) You make a few good points; and, I'm glad to hear they're still hanging. However your remarks are somewhat presumptuous at best. I think you discount the recruiting effort that I've already mentioned in several posts that go into the officer selection process. Essentially, I have heard under the table though reliable sources that violent tempered people are the ONLY candidates that qualify for police work. They are the ONLY people the department hires. I've also experienced this first person myself; and, I'm probably whiter than you.

Where we used to live I had many an opportunity to get to know the beat officers. One in particular was very helpful in helping us to deal with some rather dangerous former neighbors. He was very nice and we got to know each others names. Whenever I'd see him I would approach him and chat. He even once helped us round up a missing neighbors cat. Under most circumstances, he was quite a gentleman. However, one day, I saw him outside with other officers and I thought I'd say hello. I called him by name and asked him how he was. He spun around and growled at me to "Get Back!" He reached for his gun. I got back. He then went back to casually chatting with the other officers. I waited for him to finish politely, thinking maybe he didn't recognize me. So when he finished, I called his name again. This time I identified myself and where I lived. I told him he knew me. Again he spun around like a beast and screamed at me. I did not know this man. His demeanor was completely different than ever before, more like an angry lion in a zoo. I decided to abandon the effort and cut my loses. I went home.

I never forgot that encounter. That officer had no reason at all to be upset. I did not want to find out how much more upset he could become over nothing. Yet, without a doubt, in his calmer state he was easily one of the friendliest officers I have ever met. What really concerns me is that all this encounter proves is what I have learned a long time ago. You have to be a psycho in order to qualify to wear a badge.

I think that the point you are missing, PD, is that these people don't only carry guns, but now military grade equipment. Sure, it is easy to justify that since this violence is directed toward a minority and "not you", they "probably" deserved it; and, it will never happen to you. Yet, this is wishful thinking at best. Even YOU, just admitted that there ARE better examples of police brutality than the Michael Brown case. You have just admitted that there is indeed a problem. Why must you then insist there isn't? The fact of the matter remains, whenever anyone is denied justice, everyone is denied justice. The way this system is currently rigged, we are ALL potential victims. That is why we should ALL be outraged.

DAnneMarc: Well, I guess I can now see why you are so much against policemen. You've been personally shunned by someone you thought you were pretty buddy-buddy with and he turned on you for whatever reason at the time.

Policemen experience things that most of us never will. They frequently see the very ugly side of things and can develop very human emotions and biases. Their lives depend upon being able to analyze possible threatening situations before they happen and taking the necessary actions to prevent being victims themselves. They can suffer the same kinds of PTSD that our soldiers fighting in wars can suffer. Once you see a child with his guts hanging out or ripped in two whether it is from a bomb in a war or an automobile accident at home it affects people, even tough and 'trained' professionals like policemen. Or, when he sees friends die when it could very easily have been him, it changes and hardens a person to an extent most family members or other civilians, who never has gone through that, can never understand. When people are put under a constant stress in life or death situations they can often snap...perhaps make the wrong decisions...all things they have to constantly worry about. There is no amount of training that can overcome that reality even though some seem to think otherwise. But then, they are not the ones who have to constantly experience what the police have to go through.

A cop's job is tough enough even without having antagonists challenging or mocking them or resisting arrest all of which usually leads to an escalation that usually never turns out for the good of the antagonist. But, I guess if people are dumb enough to cause an escalation with the police they will suffer the consequences. The police have a job to do and if someone gets in the way of them doing their job they will pay the price. I don't feel sorry for them. They usually deserve what they get. And in the case of MB attacking Wilson, I most certainly don't think MB deserves any sympathy. He caused his own problem.

Yes, I believe that there are a few cops that just can't wait for someone to escalate a problem and even some psychopathic killers out there. But, I don't believe that they are all like that. I think most of them want to serve and to protect the non-criminals...but not the criminals. It's their job to detect and apprehend the criminals...and they have to analyze characteristic behaviors of people in that endeavor. If a person acts like he is guilty of something he may very well be.

Most non-criminals will not escalate a problem by being disrespectful, argumentative, excessively nervous, or resist being arrested. It never does any good anyway. It's like the jaws of a trap..the more you struggle...the more the teeth dig in.

DAnneMarc: I hope so too! Until then, I'll continue trying to keep my temper and act normal and respectful and do exactly what they tell me to do and not argue with them so that it minimizes the possibility of triggering any psychopathic tendencies they may have. I'll also continue to think that anyone else that fails to do those things are just asking for trouble. What would you do?

Yeah Marc, a society that devalues black human life so much that jaywalking brings a death sentence. Or playing with a toy gun in a public park, or walking through a Walmart store with a toy gun, or selling cigarettes on a public sidewalk, or getting high, or just (GASP) wearing a hoodie and walking in a "white" neighborhood. Shocking, heinous crimes!

AIW,

Dispatch didn't tell the officers in Cleveland that the gun was a BB gun. Shame on the child for altering the gun to look like a real one and shame on the parents for letting him do it! If a gun is aimed at you could you tell if the gun was real or would you wait until you were shot to realise that hesistating cost you your life or would you shoot first and ask questions later ?

He was instructed to raise his hands and instead he chose to pull a gun from his waistband. I don't care what color you are or whether you are rich or poor you can agree that pulling a gun on police officer is not the brightest thing to do.

In August of 2014, an unarmed white teen was shot and killed by a black police officer in Salt Lake City Utah. The officer was not indicted by a grand jury. Where were the riots and the stop traffic protests?

Still listening!

Rickfromflorida, when you're preventing someone from breathing, and he has to tell you eleven times "I can't breathe" and you STILL won't allow him to breathe while you ignore his pleas for air, and then he dies as a result, how can you claim not to have intended harm?! Of all the things we can't live without, oxygen tops the list. I don't really care if you call that a headlock or chokehold; the guy is dead. Over something very, very petty, that posed no threat to anyone.

I watched that video too, and it didn’t look like much of a struggle to me. I saw a group of men jump on Mr. Garner in unison, and it took less than a minute for them to drag him down to the ground. There was no long, drawn-out struggle. Most of Mr. Garner's resistence was verbal, not physical.

What many of us are so angry about is how cheap human life seems to have gotten in this increasingly run-down, third world country of ours. And there is no human life cheaper than black human life, it seems. A twelve-year-old black kid, playing with a toy gun, gets ambushed and executed in broad daylight; a young black man is executed in Walmart for walking around the store with a toy gun, just a piece of store merchandise! No questions asked; just BLAM! A black teenager gets massacred by a racist vigilante, just walking home from the store, and the cops don’t even bother arresting the killer. The officer accosting Michael Brown and his friend yells “Get the fuck off the sidewalk!” before the altercation leading to MB’s death. (How's THAT for professionalism?!) And let’s not forget Oscar Grant, the 22-year-old, murdered by BART police at that Fruitvale BART station in Oakland! Oscar was shot in the back while lying face-down on pavement, completely helpless, with his hands held behind him by another cop. Is that your idea of “serving” and “protecting”, sir?

I watch video after video where cops are verbally abusive bullies, going out of their way to provoke their targets. They harass black men who are doing nothing wrong, without the slightest provocation. They beat up homeless people, with little or no provocation.

Aren’t there any means of apprehending someone other than asphyxiating or shooting him to death?

Another blogger, DAnneMarc, has a friend who applied for enrollment at a police academy and was turned down, for being too even-tempered! According to Marc, they want recruits who are psychopaths, bullies and control freaks. And that is the problem with police. They pick the troublemakers for recruits, and we end up with thugs in uniform. This is what has landed your profession's public image and reputation in the toilet, Rick. Don't blame Thom Hartmann; blame yourselves. - AIW

Well gee Rick, you don't think the stress from asphyxiation triggered that heart attack, after no oxygen entering Eric’s bloodstream all that time? I’m well aware that Eric died in the ambulance after geing asphyxiated, but you don’t see a connection? None at all?!

it puzzles me that such drastic measures were necessary to apprehend this man. He was hardly the picture of health. Couldn't that have been taken more into consideration? Eric didn't appear to be stupid enough, in his condition, to try outrunning or fighting off these fit young men, especially outnumbered to the extent that he was. I saw no evidence of this on the video. I don't get what's so deceiving about it.

Correction: It was “Get the fuck off the street!” not the sidewalk, what Officer Wilson said to Michael Brown and his friend when he first accosted them.

You don't seem to have taken my post personally, sir, despite the bluntness of my comments, which I appreciate and openly acknowledge. But here's the bug up my ass. It just seems to be the consistent pattern that time after time, an unarmed, usually male, young black person is dead... and the case doesn't even make it past the grand jury, let alone to trial, and the killer walks. No indictment, no trial, no nothing. The message this sends the public at large is that anything goes if you’re a police officer, especially if you’re a white police officer and the dead person is black. You'd think the lives of these people were dispensible, that they meant nothing at all.

I will not argue your point that each day, thousands of arrests are carried out in this country without death or injury, even when resistance is involved. How small the percentage of bad cops there are in proportion to the overall numbers probably varies by area. I have had only one bad experience with police that was noteworthy enough to remember, and it happened over forty years ago, back in my Berkeley days. But I’m a white gal.

In the twenty-plus years since my husband & I moved to Oregon, I’ve been stopped two or three times, while driving through town. Each time it was for a perfectly legitimate reason: forgetting to turn on my headlights at night, after exiting a well-lit parking lot or street. So each time I was very polite to the officer, to the point of apologizing profusely for my blunder, and they in turn were polite to me. Each time the officer checked me out, the way officers are supposed to do, and determined that I was sober enough to drive, and let me off the hook without penalty or incident.

However many or few the bad cops, they are having a hugely negative impact on race relations in this country, something I don’t appreciate. People have a hard enough time getting along without this 21st Century version of public lynchings, one after another, and without consequence for any of the killers.

It is my humble view that humans are a quarrelsome species of primate. Granted, some of us are a lot mellower than others! But as a species, we’re constantly fighting and at war with each other, on a grand scale as well as one-on-one, up close and personal. I really wish police academies would pick the even-tempered, cool-headed candidates who would be most inclined to handle volatile, potentially dangerous situations without bloodshed. Many such incidents could be diffused with an assertive but respectful, calming demeanor on the part of the officer, whether or not he needs to make an arrest. If the officers treated these young men with the sort of respect I believe all of us owe one another, in any civil society, most if not all these dead young black guys would be annonymous to this day, and still be alive. If Marc is right, and if they make a point of picking macho men, racists and psychopaths for police training instead of balanced, stable personalities, I don’t see this situation getting better; it’ll just keep growing worse, while the USA becomes more and more of a combat zone. This stupid war on drugs and drug users has not helped the situation any, and has been a tool within easy access for racists wearing the badge. I've heard and read that young black men currently are seven times as likely to be busted for drug use and over thirty times as likely as their white counterparts to be executed-by-cop. This leaves no doubt in my mind that a serious disparity exists in how citizens of different skin tones get treated by law enforcement in our society.

As Thom points out, -- and I agree -- we need special prosecutors having no shared interdependence with or special allegiance to the police; prosecutors who, in these kinds of cases, have no vested interest in any particular outcome and can be impartial without any conflict of interests. Without that, it's all pretense, just empty ritual of no intrinsic value. And thus, from much of the general public's point of view, it's a joke what’s passing for “justice” these days in America. Dead unarmed black man after dead unarmed black man with NO indictments, no trials, not a single one among those several incidents cited in my last post! Outrageous. Indefensible. Unacceptable.

Hopefully by the time you read this, Rick, your mile-long, to-do list will be down to the last half mile. Thanks for your patience with me. Not a pleasant topic, but a good one for discussion. It isn't every day I get to debate a retired police sargeant. Thanks for your input. Whether or not I agree with all of it, I respect where it's coming from and know it adds something of unique value to this thread. - AIW

P.S. Please read posts #9 & #10 by Ms. Metcalfe, if you haven't.

Alice, well of course the partial blockage of Mr. Garner’s airway played a role in his demise, it was part of the physical struggle and stress that caused his cardiac arrest. But the facts are the officer did not physically choke Mr. Garner to death and the officer had no intent to do so.

I must say that when I first started police work we had no idea what positional asphyxiation was but now days it is regularly taught to police officers. I’m certain that the officer that had Mr. Garner in the headlock knew about positional asphyxiation from his police training. I have personally used the same type of head lock move numerous times, when taking resisting suspects into custody, with no adverse effects. It’s a very effective move as long as you are careful to get your arm on, or just under the suspects chin and not on his throat. From what I saw on the video the officer that put Mr. Garner in the head lock move used the move properly and did not recklessly endanger Mr. Garners life by using the move.

Getting back to what I said about the video being deceiving let me better explain myself. On the video the struggle may appear to have been very minimal but all parties were expending a tremendous amount of physical energy. In fact everyone’s adrenaline is flowing at full capacity. All parties are using all their might, the police to subdue Mr. Garner, and Mr. Garner attempting to break away.

To give you an idea of what I mean, in the police academy, in order to simulate a physical confrontation, we were required to box with one and other. We were given head gear and boxing gloves and we proceeded to box with some one of similar size and weight. We were told to continuously punch the other person for an entire minute. I was 23 years old and in good physical shape and at the end of that one minute I was totally exhausted. Most confrontations with resisting suspects are more like wrestling matches then a boxing match but in both you expend a tremendous amount of physical energy.

I can tell you from personal experience having been in hundreds of physical altercations with resisting suspects, that even a short physical struggle expends a tremendous amount of physical energy. I have no doubt that the exertion and stress from the physical struggle coupled with his poor physical condition caused Mr. Garner’s heart attack and unfortunate demise.

You say you think drastic measures were taken to apprehend Mr. Garner, I say what other way could he have been taken into custody? Mace or taser? I’m not sure if they were available but they could have caused similar distress to Mr. Garner’s heart as well and they don‘t always work.

In this particular case, with the limited knowledge available from the media and internet, I would have to say the grand jury made the right decision not to indict in the Garner case.

On the Michael Brown case I do lean toward some type of indictment. Again the only facts we have are from the media and the internet. I do not have all of the facts as they were presented to the grand jury or if they are out there, I have not had the time to find and read them. I personally lean toward an indictment in this case because there appears to be to many gray areas, it’s not as “black and white” as the Garner case.

One of the first things you are taught as an investigator, is that there are three sides to every story, the two stories presented by the two parties involved and some where in between both those stories is the truth. And to be honest with you peoples memories of events can become easily tainted. It’s why witnesses are immediately separated from one and other. They can actually change each others minds as to what occurred. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten completely different accounts of the same event from people who all witnessed the same thing. In almost all cases involving several witnesses there will be a pretty big discrepancies between the witnesses accounts of what occurred. This also gives you an idea of how really hard it is to conduct criminal investigations. Because humans are humans and their memories are far from perfect many times the physical evidence is the most important evidence of any case. As you conduct an investigation and put all the pieces together the case some times becomes more “black and white” hence my earlier statement. Other times there remains a lot of “grey”. Now I’m just rambling, sorry about that.

Getting back on point I can tell you exactly what’s wrong with our current system it is the Grand Jury system. Thom is right we do need a better system then a grand juries. I do have some idea of how a grand jury works but I don‘t know the full process. From the little that I know it’s a very flawed system. I would have to do more research on grand juries to correctly explain what I mean by a flawed system.

That’s all the time I have right now. I fully agree with your comments on us being a quarrelsome species of primate. I’m very into history and our history is rife with conflict. I’ve enjoyed our debate, if I can find the time I hope to continue the conversation.

Continued from posts #39, #41 and #46: Still listening, Tarheels!