Would You Rather Have Healthcare Or A New F-35?
By Thom Hartmann A...
If what conservatives say is true and we're too broke to afford universal healthcare - why are we still spending trillions on useless weapons programs?
The priciest weapons program in American history is about to get even pricier.
According to Bloomberg, ".... acquisition costs for Lockheed Martin Corp.'s [F-35] may rise about 7 percent to $406.5 billion... That's a reversal after several years of estimates that had declined to $379 billion recently from a previous high of $398.5 billion in early 2014."
Think that's bad?
When you add in maintenance and operations costs, the TOTAL cost of the F-35 -- which is still indefinitely grounded -- is now estimated to be around $1.1 trillion.
According to University of Massachusetts Economist Gerald Friedman, a single-payer healthcare system would cost about $1.5 trillion every year. That is not a lot of money in the Federal budget.
So we can spend millions on this useless weapons program that soldiers don't even like, but can't "afford" single-payer healthcare? I don't get it.
Comments
#2
Conservatives and Repugnicons are nothing more than greedy, arrogant, hateful, cold-hearted bastards. I hope there's a special, and very cruel, place in Hell just for them.
#3
Voter suppression is used to make these things happen.
#4
The Masters make the rules for the wisemen and the fools. We don't need any of that stuff. Israel is now making our foriegn policy in the Mid East. The CIA and angry mafia dons plus disgruntled CEOs make the policy in South America. We need a Democratic Party that stands for a sensible foriegn policy, not a war monger policy like Clinton supports. Her idea of a "consensus" foriegn policy shows how far right the corporate Dems are on this set of issues. Their is no difference between Obama and Bush, Clinton and Cheney.
#5
Not only that but a new tax scheme would be put in place to help pay for single payer health. Not so for weapons which are always paid out of the diminishing revenue sources that we already have.
#6
Despite our troubles, we are still the richest nation on Earth. If the fastest growing segment of new wealth -- created and financed 100% by taxpayers -- is nothing but a savage tribe of wildly wealthy warlords who think a single military boondoggle, in their never-ending quest for more fearsome weapons of death, has as much value as the health and very lives of those who fund their lavish lifestyles, then, certainly, it is time to rise up and demand change, to reset priorities and redirect collective resources so that the sweat of our brow reflects majority will and higher values!
#7
After listening to the libertarian so-called economist on your show today it is clear that there is some extremely flawed thinking on this on the right. His idea that all we need to do is to get the government out of healthcare and prices will miraculously become affordable through competition is the worst sort of voo-doo economics.
First, there is NO "free market" without government rules that make such a market. Without the government, people will be taken advantage of by providers of medical care of all sorts even more than they are now.
Secondly, healthcare in particular is a market where competition does NOT work to keep prices down. Who ever asks what the least expensive option is if they are critically ill? Most rational people will ask for the treatment that would give the best outcome and then worry about the price. Competition relys on perfect fungibility of goods, perfect information, and perfect competition, NONE of which exist in the healthcare market.
Insurance is NOT the answer either. It adds a layer of profit that drives up the price to everybody getting care. It also does little to address the cost of the services being provided. The best answer is to have some central entity that regulates prices in a way that keeps services affordable and focuses on outcomes rather than income or profit. The only entity that can do that is the government.
#8
The endless Bush/Cheney Iraq war for profit is costing trillions....yes trillions on one god damn war. Thanks Righties...that's your "Merica."
Instead of the obvious insanity of the above reality, what if our public servants had given us this choice after 911? .... #1 We'll take out Bin Laden with special forces for $millions$ and spend $trillions$ on Medicare for all, or #2 we'll spend $trillions$ on endless war for profit and continue with unaffordable for profit health insurance.
Why are we letting Fascists ruin our society? At some point we'll have to do what we need to do.....there are only a few hundred of them. Or we let the planet die.
My solution: Round up the Fascists, seize their assets, make them work 60 hour weeks at minimum wage, and pay for their own damn for profit health insurance out of this income.
#9
What's there not to get. U.S. policy has been dictated by the military since WW II. They're the biggest entitlement program in our history, BY FAR! Look at how we glorify our veterans every Memorial Day and 4th of July, glorify the killings of millions of innocent people during the wars we fought in other countries, and people are so brainwashed that they buy it. When the historians look back a couple centuries from now, they will see how sick and destructive our nation was.
#10
tomcalwriter1; You raised a good point. Do you think we'll ever have a National Holiday honoring those who refused to serve in one of the many senseless wars?
#11
Scotty11: Perhaps. And if we do it will be called "Flag Burning Day". Don't hold your breath.
#12
The world spends trillions on weapons of defence and offence ,if you used the money for humanitarian aid and helping each other we would have war no more .
They are wasting the worlds wealth (the people's money) on instruments of death and fear .The overwhelming thoughts of humanity is peace can't we just all agree killing each other can never solve the problems it just kicks the can down the road until another conflict comes along.
Men mostly play the hammer game ,the one with the biggest hammer wins ,they are really like children .Women would hammer out justice .
This has to end, time to awaken the species and evolve ......most of us would agree that sharing and co-operation has to be the way forward not nationalism and the illusion of superiority.
Remember it is an illusion !!!!
#13
#7 as soon as all those flocking here to escape worse corruption in their own countries and we ourselves realize that the government is the PEOPLE and be able to afford taking part in the political process by means of access to living wage employment in a competitive employment market with high retention rate, the better.
#14
Great thread! After another day of rampant greed, violence, oppression, and the habitual dishonesty of petty, self-dealing leadership at nearly every level, it's refreshing to hear from those who can so eloquently express simple truths and the way forward.
Violence begets violence, greed is never quenched, and lies feed on themselves as civilization spirals into perpetual chaos and cruelty. Conversely, dispelling illusions, promoting peace, and utilizing precious resources to relieve the wide-spread suffering and to foster cooperation on a basis of mutual understanding and tolerance, are infinitely more powerful influences effecting positive change.
In both the corporeal and the spiritual sense, fear, hate, lies, greed, and selfishness lead to death, while empathy, compassion, generosity, and a thirst for truth lead to life. That's the essence and innocence of religious awareness, not to be found in the stifling and delusional doctrines of false religions; in our hearts, we know that's the deeper reality.
Humankind is on the cusp of a new era, an evolutionary leap that will ensure the survival of the tree of life on this "pale blue dot" lost in the blackness of space.
But the sand in the hourglass is running out.
#15
It's said that humans distinguish themselves from other animals because we are rational but that is not strictly true. We are rational when our minds are not full of fear and greed. When it is, rationality takes a back seat and ignorance takes over.
That is why we are continously driven into fear by the press. I mean, an attack happens half way around the world and they make it sound like it happened in our backyard and that the next time, very soon, the same people that caused the tragedy will magically transport themselves into our living room to do the same to us.
Combine that with a lack of information and you get deeper ignorance, so, people will begin defending their own enemies while those enemies are tearing them apart.
That is modern life in the USA.
#16
Maajor media never mentions % of our economy eaten up by the war machine---how to get it highlighted regularly is the big question of our time if anything is to improve on onthis planet
#17
Christmas morning once again.
#18
The argument of "why should I pay for birth control" put forth by men regarding health care is an idiotic argument that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny. Women pay for their prostate exams and I'm sure if they looked over any insurance policy they pay for it covers a whole host of things they'll never use which is how insurance is designed. If everyone used everything an insurance co covered all the time no one could ever afford it. As for cost, breaking the public up into segments based on risk actually costs everyone more money, not less, at least the way I figure it. A pie costing $100.00 split 100 ways costs each $1.00, but if we take that same pie and split it into 10 segments of 10 units each and charge each until $10.00 we've multiplyed the profits of the owner of the pie by a factor of 100 because we have 100 div X 10 X 10 = 100 rather than 100 X 1 - 100. I hope my math was correct, but you get the picture. I noticed that the woman from American Enterprise Inst was using the same argument they're using for health care to taking away our net neutrality although she's been brainwashed to believe it's truth. She's a useful tool as are many who've been "programmed" to believe the big lies such as the entire Republican Party.
#19
My letter to the editor regarding net neutrality
The straw argument, which is all they have to support their position that’s being used to remove the Title II rule from the FCC for our internet is the same one that’s been used to convince people to go against their own best interests with health insurance “why should I pay for something I don’t use?” In the first place we currently do not pay for content on the internet we pay for access and speed, yet the American Enterprise Institute would have us believe that we have to pay for content. That would be the case if the protections of Title II of Telcom Act is removed. Whenever something like insurance or cable TV is sliced up into segments and charged individually, the costs to the consumer increases. Take for example a pie costing $100.00 sliced into 100 pieces with each slice costing $1.00. That same pie sliced into 10 pieces increases cost per slice by a factor of 10. Cable does this with programming by slicing up popular content into multiple packages increasing consumer costs while fattening their bank accounts. Many cable providers such as Comcast, AT&T, Time-Warner, are also being allowed to own content like Comcast owning NBC and MSNBC, Disney and Time-Warner also own various media and AT&T is looking to buy Time-Warner. They will then show preferential treatment to the content they own which is a monopoly that should NEVER be allowed to exist as it’s extremely dangerous to democracy, what little of it that remains. FCC accepts public comments until July 17.
#20
Now I’m hearing these programmed tools argue that “it’s government controlled” when government simply blocks corporations from controlling a market. That’s nuts. Do these people ever listen to themselves talk? They use that argument to oppose national healthcare or anything that is pro consumer and blocks corporations from dominating any market. They use “free market” when it’s only free for the market to exploit us for their profits. Even when the results of their beliefs prove their beliefs to be wrong, they will support the flawed belief. Such people cannot be engaged In a rational dialogue because they will never admit they were wrong EVER. They are so programmed to believe that government is the enemy that can do no right. Never do they stop to consider that government, which they think can be run like a corporation is only as good and effective as those put in charge of running (governing) it, same as a business. So, if a government is in their minds the enemy then perhaps it should occur to them to look at those they vote for to “govern” or “run” government?
#21
Merry Christmas Diane :):):):):):).
To me it's like the movie "Ground Hogs Day" starring a bunch of washed up lefties:)
#22
Hey Bachmann, is that all you got? Really? Must be hell to be a Trumpbagger now? How's that Make Russia Great Again working out for ya ? LMAO.
#23
arky12 says,
"...Even when the results of their beliefs prove their beliefs to be wrong, they will support the flawed belief. Such people cannot be engaged In a rational dialogue because they will never admit they were wrong EVER."
"Rational dialogue" is not something you expect with either Ou812 or Diane, our two token trolls.
#24
This is the kind of Health Care they're providing in SD and I think it's FREE..? AND it's part of a "war"!..
https://www.aclusd.org/en/news/why-was-3-year-old-south-dakota-forcibly-...
https://drugs-forum.com/ams/south-dakota-forcibly-catheterizes-a-toddler...
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2017/04/07/hooded-handcuffe...
#25
Hey 2950-10K
When did a retired prison guard like yourself become such an expert (at least in your own mind) on everything?
#26
Deepspace:
You had an opportunity to engage in rational dialogue yesterday when I posted about the German health care system. Instead of dialogue, you choose to attack me with some meaningless statement. Pathetic
#27
Let's put it in real Republicans terms. Sad!
#28
We have the most expensive (by twice as much) medical care system with a very low rating compared to the other top 35 industrialized countries and you are going to argue it? Do some research and post references about how great our system is.
#29
Someone likes it enough to pay our corrupt politicians to keep approving it!
#30
From Board of Education to Hotdog Lady: "Don't scratch 'sanctimonious' off your resumé quite yet..."
From Hotdog Lady to anyone bothering to listen:
"The Germans had single payer under Hitler. That didn't work out too well."
Yeees ...had me till that zinger!
Beggin' me pardon, me lady, but let the archives show (borrring!) that you've deliberately squandered every opportunity for rational dialogue with depraved, ugly, insulting, completely unfounded, and just plain dumb remarks and comparisons to the most negative and extreme exceptions of nearly every topic at hand.
Yesterday was just more of the same prosaic, Anne Coulter-esque, predictable and disgusting throwaway lines.
The "big lie" started with a subtle but harmless deflection away from America's single-payer debate by providing links to the pluses and minuses of German's choice between two programs: private or public. (Cool; works for them; they like it; so what -- we're Americans with our own unique set of circumstances.)
A minor, semi-non sequitur, perhaps, but whatever ... so far so good ... untll ...
BOOM !!! STUKA DIVE BOMBER !!!
...a not-so-subtle comparison of the valiant efforts of American people, fighting hard for the right to healthcare, to the evils of Hitler's Germany.
BTW, where's granny's usual drumbeat outrage at Nazi comparisons? Oh wait ... "selective" ... forgot about that part.
Oookaaay. Cut the mic. We're done here.
Pathetic.
#31
Once again we are in last place in healthcare.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/americas-health-care-system-comes-last-04...
#32
@Deepspace
The Germans learned a hard lesson about single payer health care (monopolistic health care) under Hitler. He decided who received health care...no Jews except for experiments.
In spite of all that, you want 360,000,000+ people to have only one source for health care. You rant and rave about companies like ExxonMobil and there control over lives. Yet ExxonMobil is not a monopoly. We have choices about what fuels to buy or not to buy. I want that same choice in health care.
I had a Dr appointment yesterday. I arrived on time, was seen right away. I was given a EKG, and had a consultation with the Doctor. I paid $10.00 for all of that (Don't get your hopes up, I'm fine). Millions and millions of Americans have a health care plan similar to mine (Aetna). Why would we want monopolistic health care, wait in line to be seen by a PA. Then, when a service is denied, who do we complain too.
You may be done, but I'm not.
#33
Look at the link in post #31. You are fortunate that you must have an excellent healthcare plan. A $10 co-pay is unheard of. What does your company and you combined pay for it? I know you will say none of my business. But you are leaving out the true costs of the healthcare that you receive. Also did you look at the actual charges for that EKG. There would have been the full charge (what is charged if you do not have an healthcare policy) and what the insurance company is required to pay (a discounted rate). You are fortunate to have a job that pays for a significant part of your insurance. Not everyone does. But you need to be honest and disclose the real cost. It was $1200 per month for me and my wife prior to my going on Medicare. Or $14400 per year. That is for the worse healthcare among the top industrialized countries. See link in #31.
#34
Legend,
You are probably the kind of person who when dining in restaurant, orders by the cost of the meal. I order by what I want.
I don't care what the board of education pays for health care, I have no control over that. I know my out of pocket expense for a doctor visit is $10.00, that's what I pay. I didn't bother to check the reference you provided, because I have great health care.
I lived in Ontario for 6 years under OHIP, the Ontario Health Insurance Program. It's the province's single payer system. OHIP is in effect a two tier system. Those who have supplemental insurance, usually provided by an employer get the choice doctors. If you don't have supplemental insurance, you are relegated to a clinic, where you'll wait half a day to be seen by a PA, if you need follow up care, you probably won't be seen by the same PA. It may take 18 months to get a simple MRI. Of course there is no charge for the visit. Sales tax rates in Ontario are around 15% plus the income tax is considerably more than the tax rates in the USA. I could go on and on about the "free health" care in Canada. I and millions and millions of Americans prefer the system we have now.
One last point, here is a list of the 7 countries that produce the best medical doctors in the world, not the best insurance or payment system, but the best Doctors, providing the best medical care. The USA is rated no 1.
http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/7-countries-that-produce-the-best-doct...
#35
Ou812
Stop confusing the leftie/socialists with facts about the Canadian system, their minds will boggle and lord knows with their hair already on fire, that will not lead to a happy ending.
Pre-obamacare I was also on a cafeteria program with Aetna. My co-pays were $10 with $25 for a specialist and I had no deductible hurdle to meet. They could not cap me or throw me off the plan. We utilized the FSA savings account where we were allowed to put away $2500 per year to supplement our incidentals and It worked just fine. When I received my buyout and retired I believe I was paying $235/mo. including basic dental and covered two people. The company paid portion was less than a match to that amount because I know they left dental as a employee option.
In 2011 when the contracts ran out and obamacare was in full effect, the cafeteria plan where one could select the coverage they deemed necessary disappeared, the employee contribution has blossomed to $950/mo. for two people with no dental and a $5000/deductible per family per year before any benefits were paid by insurance.
Oh yea, they can no longer select the doctor of their chouce. The clinic does it for them.
BTW, Merry Christmas back to you. Enjoy your hot dog.
#36
Ou812 (#32),
So, of all the present-day advanced societies who enjoy very popular versions of universal, single-payer healthcare systems, each uniquely designed to fit their own particular circumstances, you feel compelled to reach back into the darkest shadows of history to cite the most vile criminal dictatorship ever to have committed horrific crimes against humanity on such an unimaginable scale.
While living in Germany for 18 months in the Army and thereafter, I took it upon myself to study the causes of WWII, the rise of Hitler, and the Holocaust. Similarly, through many frank and lively conversations with ordinary Germans, I learned firsthand the national shame the good people of that proud nation must endure, even to this day -- the indescribable horrors acted out in their name.
Read: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer.
To make flippant remarks about what both the citizens and the victims of Nazi Germany suffered through, just to make a dishonest and unsubstantiated point that our proposed, AMERICAN single-payer system would be "monopolistic" with "only one source for health care" -- a flat-out lie! -- is so outrageously indecent it beggars belief! What is even more stunning is that a self-proclaimed "educator" appears totally oblivious to the ethical paucity of such an argument.
"...We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone
All in all it's just another brick in the wall
All in all you're just another brick in the wall..." -- PF
Truly, you are incorrigible! Evidently, your idea of "rational dialogue" is to double down on an irrational talking point -- and, frankly, the most disgustingly perverse and false historic parallel of all time -- to lend nonexistent support to a point that is itself irrational, lacking any substance or credible sourcing other than your own personal anecdote, which is void of a complete set of facts, such as the true cost of your policy beyond a negligible co-pay, e.g., premium, employer subsidy, deductible, lifetime limits (if no ACA) what it covers, what it denies, out-of-pocket, (preconditions, if no ACA), to whom you appeal claims (hahaha), and how many of your less-fortunate fellow citizens can't afford the benefits you enjoy or, indeed, how many won't even have any insurance at all or any realistic access to healthcare if Republicans and the actual "monopolistic" powers have their way.
BTW, read Private Empire, ExxonMobile and American Power (2012) by Steve Coll, if you really want to know how much control the absolute power of private-sector monopolies exert over the markets and our government. (Heads up: The sad truth has nothing whatsoever to do with the fantasy of a "free" market, democracy, or the rule of law; it has everything to do with fascism and what that actually means for the future of America -- on-the-ground reality rather than some ideological dreamworld partisan spinmasters implant into the gullible minds of their intellectually lazy audience.
Dark Money by Jane Mayer, Democracy in Chains by Nancy McClean, On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder, and Dollarocracy by John Nichols and Robert W. McChesney will also help open your eyes to the true meaning of "monopolistic."
In the end, though, it's about moral consciousness -- but that's something of the heart not of the head, and no amount of intellectual debate can replace what is lacking.
As far as "Medicare for all" (for the USA, not Germany or Canada or anywhere else), begin the arduous process of educating yourself, Teach, instead of wildly speculating using corporate-sponsored lies and fear-mongering:
https://fixithealthcare.com/watch-the-movie/
http://www.pnhp.org/news/articles-of-interest
http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Know
http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/List_of_Industrialized_Countries
#37
Diane
Our school system provides insurance for those covered by negotiated agreements, there are 5 separate agreements, 1. Teachers, 2. Administration, 3. Custodial & Maintenance, 4. Cafeteria workers and 5. Clerical. All are covered by the same health care plan but under separate negotiated agreements. Instructional assistants are not covered by any agreement, and they have never received health care. Under Obamacare, business are required to cover all employees who work more than 30 hours a week. Instructional assistants usually work 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. Because of the over 30 hour requirement for health care, ALL instructional assistants had there hours cut to 4-7 hour says. It didn't mater that the instructional didn't want or need health insurance, there hours were cut. The school system had no choice....
Thanks for the compliments, the hot dog drives the washed up lefties crazy(ier).
#38
Deepspace:
My point exactly about the Germans, they suffered enough under Hitler. They don't want to risk have another National Socialist Workers Party (Nazi) by implementing a single payer health care system.
http://clashdaily.com/2013/09/adolph-hitler-real-father-universal-health...
http://www.wnd.com/2015/02/health-care-then-guns-nazis-lay-plan-for-dest...
https://fee.org/articles/national-health-care-medicine-in-germany-1918-1...
#39
Ou812,
It would be interesting to see all the leftie/socialists and their engineered drama pack their bags and move to say Cuba and start spouting off about how rotten the country is run.
God, part of me is praying for a Trump resignation and Mike Pence and Paul Ryan step in and give these pussies a real reason to cry and stomp their feet.
Until then, I will await President Trump's appointment of Ted Cruz to the supreme court to replace the already fossilized Ruth Bader Ginsberg, and then a really consertive pick to replace Kennedy who obviously has had enough.
#40
Yet here you are, posting cartoons and inanities, surrounded by liberals/progressives. Why?
Obviously, trolls are too lazy to do their homework assignments and will thus remain grossly ill-informed. At least watch the video (requiring the least effort) about employer insurance programs, as well as other monstrosities, exposing the overall failure of our privatized, profitized healthcare nightmare:
https://fixithealthcare.com/watch-the-movie/
ps: The hotdog is visual reinforcement of a dippy juvenile mind, something to laugh at, not with, much like the clownish hair of your fake "president." Have you no sense of embarrassment, madam?
#41
So you refuse to say what you actually pay for such a good healthcare plan. Takes the wind out of any argument that it is a good plan. Also you do not want to look at fact such as the link in post 31. I worked for a company until age 62, Then went private contracting. The company had paid $850 per month and I paid $350 which was deducted from my paycheck. The company gets a tax deduction for that $850. This covered me and my wife. When I left I went on COBRA for 18 months and paid $1200 per month out of pocket. It may not be any more than what you were paying but writing that check every month makes you really feel it. Also I do not get a tax deduction. There were deductibles That I cannot remember at this time. Also some arguments on coverage that had to be appealed. Also the company made money on this, as they were self insured and hired a company to do the paperwork. You have insurance as a school district benefit. I had a company benefit. I switched companies intentionally a few times and went through buyouts several times. Each time the plan changed. I did not have pre-existing. But my Cousin does and he got hung when his company was sold and his diabetes no longer covered. I also saw it happen to fellow employees. You are obviously happy with your plan and do not care what you pay so, end of argument.
I am now on Medicare. I signed up with an Advantage Plan with a not for profit company. I am very happy with it and have received more care than I want. Thom knocks Advantage Plans but he is simply uneducated on them. I pay $121 per month (Medicare fee) and no payment to a supplemental plan. This plan is only available in a few states in the west. But they are not losing money on it. If you are reasonably healthy and stay fit it is the best available.
#42
Ou812 (#38),
You just don't get it -- whoosh, right over ya noodle.
Now dry yer arse and don't be annoying me, babby.
#43
Really do not understand the comparison of Hitler. Very few had health Insuranse then and healthcare was affordable.
Todays system:
#44
Legend
Let me dumb it down for you.
Otto Van Bismarck started socialized Healthcare in Germany in 1883
When Hitler came to power he completed the process imposing socialized Healthcare on the entire German population.
The only way a German could receive Healthcare was from Hitler (single payer--monopolistic health care)
Jews and others received none or were used as medical expermints.
Do you understand now....try reading the references provided.
#45
I love being called a liberal leftie socialist. It makes me feel on top of the world. We all get a kick out of seeing lifetime right wing tools and their ilk run to social programs gasping for help especially towards the end of their lives. Usually after a lift time of seeking subsidies, welfare-for-the-rich, handouts, bankruptcy protection, tax breaks, and grand old free patent protection from their dear friend big government
Cuba is a dictatorship that also chose to isolate itself from the IMF (backlash whip) and is not a good example of communism. Nobody wants communism but if you like oligarchy apparently we have that right here. Speaking of communism, I thought it comes from China and elsewhere. On the contrary #39, it is large corporations and those with great wealth, not leftie socialists, along with all of their engineered drama that do seem to pack their bags, if not wallets, move elsewhere and do spout off about how rotten the country is run all day everyday and pay lobbyist great amounts of money to do it to boot.
#46
Single-payer is insurance, not healthcare; America is not Nazi Germany; Dumb can't define smart; hotdogs are bad for your health, evidently including mental.
#47
Deepspace : wow I agree with you again. Single payer is not Healthcare it's a scheme used by washed up lefties in an attempt to take away freedom of choice. Here's a question for you. I know you're a big supporter of abortions. Let's say President Trump institutes a single payer program, that won't pay for abortions. What do you do now?
#48
No, muppet, I'm not "a big supporter of abortions" and I don't know anyone who is. I support a woman's right to have "freedom of choice" over her own body.
Nor do I engage in absurd hypotheticals or simpleminded gotcha questions, especially from someone who is intellectually dishonest and whose moral compass obviously has been banjaxed by Republican propaganda, as you have clearly demonstrated, not only in this thread but every other one graced with your presence.
Here's a question: do you ever post anything that is not despicable, immature, ignorant, or just plain dumb? No need to answer; it's rhetorical.
#49
@#46
Interesting you make claim that since Thom and posters here voice that very comparison between the Nazis and the current administration nearly every day. I guess it is ok if a leftie/socialist to trying to create more engineered drama for the lemmings to absorb.
The last time I bought this up you argued it was not so and the very next day it was in prominent display in Thoms show.
#50
Bingo! I was waiting for that exact response from you, and, frankly, was a little surprised it didn't come sooner -- you're slipping, óinseach.
Proven again just now, all you and Hotdog do is deflect, obfuscate, lie, take out of context whatever you disagree with, and reword arguments to fit preconceived notions -- pounding square pegs into round holes, usually transparent Fux News and hate-radio talking points, created by billionaire-funded think tanks, debunked repeatedly, yet disseminated to low-or-wrong-information voters, such as yourself, who obviously don't see the need to expand research beyond the comfort zone of the right-wing bubble-sphere.
Of course, that's your role as a troll and why nobody here bothers to take you seriously or to engage you in constructive debate. That, and your over-used, grade-school-level taunts, which, by the way, is why some of us, tit-for-tat, have tried to show you, without success, how to spice up your knee-jerk insults a bit for the sake of adding some color and tongue-in-cheek humor to otherwise drab and predictable comments.
What is really sad, however, and should embarrass both you and Hotdog, as it would any normal human being, is that in your mind's eye you are so clever. Evidently, you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes and realize how most unclever you actually appear to others. Dime-a-dozen, right-wing trolls and their shallow, run-of-the-mill talking points are as common as day-old dog turds and full of the same substance. Booorrring! Scrape it off the shoe!
Have you ever been to a Holocaust museum or visited a concentration camp? It is hallowed ground that shocks one into silence. No other thought can enter the mind when face to face with the visual reality of unspeakable horror and the capacity of humans to take their proclivity for violence and cruelty to the extreme. The somber experience deeply scars your soul and fundamentally changes your perspective in so many unconscious ways. If you are not brought to tears, you are not fully human.
You see, that is the whole point of preserving the record -- to serve as a blunt reminder to future generations never to forget the underlying political causes that concluded with the "final solution" -- fanning the flames of fear and hatred toward ethnic minorities and different religions, scapegoating whole groups of people for society's ills with the sole purpose of consolidating wealth and power. That is Nazi Germany in one sentence.
Lest we forget, it is our duty as citizens of the world, no matter of which country, to point out -- shout out! -- the same seeds of cruelty and the same basic instincts and tactics employed by present-day, budding authoritarian politicians, of which Trump and his thugs have in spades. Whether or not one is personally capable of detecting the actual historic parallels to the time-tested, age-old methods employed by Nazis, those parallels should not be dismissed simply because of political expediency or overly generalized rules of thumb, such as social media's so-called "Godwin's law" adage.
As Hitler rose to power, he acted upon tendencies and implemented policies which were assuredly not unique to him alone; he just took them to the next level and, in his mind anyway, to the logical endgame. Ambitious, driven politicians lusting after extreme concentration of power (extreme concentration of wealth is merely a means to that end) need to know their boundaries, what is acceptable and civilized behavior, and what is not.
Otherwise, why preserve the record if we bury the truth? Not speaking out dishonors all who have suffered and died -- on all sides -- during the course of WWII, and all who have met similar fates in succeeding totalitarian regimes, right up to the world of widespread war, greed, and thirst for ultimate power, in which we find ourselves today. History does, indeed, repeat itself -- not the same outward circumstances, obviously, but certain traits all too common in human nature and embodied in certain individuals given similar circumstances.
Therein lies the rub. If you go back through the blog archives, or have actually listened to Thom speak over time, or have read any of his books, you soon realize that, in context, he is very sincere and does not use Nazi references frivolously, gratuitously, or to score cheap political points. For, he has also visited a concentration camp and therefore must pay tribute to the victims by speaking openly and honestly about real-life parallels. It is his duty to do so, as it is ours. I don't speak for anyone but myself; nevertheless, many others on these pages (not all of course -- we're human) seem to share similar sentiments and concerns and thus feel compelled to speak out in similar fashion, each in their own way.
I won't rehash my entire exchange with Hotdog in this thread, but if you take a huge step back, read between her/his lines in the context of this community's debate about the single-payer movement in America -- not Germany, Canada, etc., but the USA -- Ou812 tried too eagerly, almost desperately, to draw a line that does not exist between our efforts and the Nazis'. I waded through the links she/he provided, which do not exculpate her/his dishonorable and despicable act of drawing a false parallel and making a false equivalency case between there-and-then and here-and-now, in a futile attempt to lend a veneer of credibility to a specious argument.
The times are different, the people are different, the motivations are different, the circumstances are different, and, most importantly, the Medicare-for-all campaign by the People of America is completely different from the selective, nightmarish, so-called "national" Nazi healthcare system, which was based on a set of completely different principles and morals, or lack thereof! To connect that dot to the goal of our good citizens to make comprehensive healthcare available to all at a better price is to expose one's woeful ignorance and, worst, wretched pettiness.
Mein Gott, Frau, why does all this need to be explained!
If you can't see the world of difference between a cheap shot and a genuine parallel, then you have misunderstood the lesson of the Holocaust, you are not honoring the fallen, and you are engaging in the same hypocrisy you have falsely accused others of in your (#49) retort -- a classic example of projection.
Incidentally, Hotdog's rejoinders remain disingenuously (deliberately?) confused by the difference between a national insurance program for healthcare and actual, stick-a-thermometer-in-your-mouth healthcare by private and independent providers, when she/he continuously conflates the two.
Furthermore, it does neither of you credit to glibly conflate Medicare-for-all with the Affordable Care Act, which is essentially a giveaway of public monies to the private insurance industry -- an unnecessary, cumbersome, and misguided effort to blend private and public programs into a hybrid compromise, inherently prone to the exact problems and uneven outcomes about which you so loudly moan and whine, and which only sucks blood out of the system and adds hopeless layers of needless complication.
Even though, to its credit, the ACA did give 30 million more people access to healthcare -- no small achievement -- the Democrats should have went all the way, pushed Medicare-for-all from the get-go, and fought back against greedy corporate interests. We would be that much closer today to the most popular, intelligent, and moral solution. Get rid of the 800-pound, for-profit gorilla sitting in the living room, as most other Western democracies already have, and the biggest problems disappear.
Is there ever a perfect solution free of all problems? Hell no! This is planet Earth infested with exponentially multiplying human bacteria! The best we can hope for is "a more perfect union." Certainly, Medicare-for-all will engender far fewer difficulties for far more people than the overly-complex, profitized, bastardized, (un)free-market jungle with sky-rocketing costs that are threatening our economy and ruining people's lives, especially if (mostly) Republican politicians beholding to the insurance monopolies get their way.
Too much to absorb out here in the real world? Go back to Fux News and the black and white fantasy land. It's much simpler and easier ...and boring.
Thom's Blog Is On the Move
By webmaster
Hello All
Thom's blog in this space and moving to a new home.
Please follow us across to hartmannreport.com - this will be the only place going forward to read Thom's blog posts and articles.
Images of Thom
From Unequal Protection, 2nd Edition:
"If you wonder why and when giant corporations got the power to reign supreme over us, here’s the story."
From Screwed:
"Hartmann speaks with the straight talking clarity and brilliance of a modern day Tom Paine as he exposes the intentional and systematic destruction of America’s middle class by an alliance of political con artists and outlines a program to restore it. This is Hartmann at his best. Essential reading for those interested in restoring the institution that made America the envy of the world."
From The Thom Hartmann Reader:
"In an age rife with media-inspired confusion and political cowardice, we yearn for a decent, caring, deeply human soul whose grasp of the problems confronting us provides a light by which we can make our way through the quagmire of lies, distortions, pandering, and hollow self-puffery that strips the American Dream of its promise. How lucky we are, then, to have access to the wit, wisdom, and willingness of Thom Hartmann, who shares with us here that very light, grown out of his own life experience."
Usually we drop million dollar bombs on mud huts. Trump dropped a $100 million bomb on mud huts when he dropped the MOAB. Not to mention the 54 cruise missles that did little or nothing to an airport in Syria. Read today that 1 Congressman wants to pay for the wall with SNAP and Planned Parenthood Funds. What happened to Mexico?