What America's Founders Would Say to Alabama's Fundamentalist Hustler Roy Moore

Judge Roy Moore, the "Ten Commandments Judge" in Alabama now running for the U.S. Senate, says the controversy he and Fox News have stirred up is about religion.

"Reporters don't understand religious liberty and where it comes from," Moore told reporters in Washington DC this week. "It comes from God," he said, "not from the Constitution."

Moore, of course, is wrong. These efforts by the so-called religious right are not about religion. They're about power. A power that seeks, ultimately, to replace democracy.

We were warned about people like Moore, and media like Fox, by the founders of our nation and the framers of the U.S. Constitution.

The judge's main arguments for keeping a graven image of the Ten Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Court rotunda are, he said, that America is a Judeo/Christian nation founded by Christians, and that the foundation of American law is the Bible and the Ten Commandments. He's repeating these claims in his run for the Senate.

The most well-known of the Founders and Framers of this nation—those who wrote the Declaration of Independence, led the Revolutionary war, and wrote the Constitution - would strongly disagree with Moore and Murdoch's Fox on all counts.

Instead, the record tells us that many of the Founders and Framers believed that secular democracy is a more powerful unifying force for a decent and peaceful civil society than any religion ever was or could be. Although most were spiritual in their own ways, and many were also openly religious, as students of history, the Founders and Framers knew the damage that organized religion could do when it gained access to the reins of political power.

The Founders clearly divided power into four categories: military, religious, wealth/corporate, and political. The interaction of these types of power produced the three historic types of tyranny - warlord kings; theocratic popes; and wealthy feudal lords or monopolistic corporations like the East India Company.

Every past tyrannical government in the history of civilization, our Founders realized, had oppressed its citizens because it had combined political power with one or more of the other three categories. This, they believed, was the fatal flaw of past forms of governance, and they were determined to isolate political power from each and all of the other three to prevent America from repeating the mistakes of previous nations.

Thus, political power would only be held by "We the People," and never again shared with military, corporate, or religious agencies.

Read more here.


Irja Orav's picture
Irja Orav 5 years 31 weeks ago

This country right now is like a puzzle where many of the pieces are either missing or turned upside down.

Hephaestus's picture
Hephaestus 5 years 31 weeks ago

Power of influence is key

A very much missed by or ignored power

Lobby needs to get out of politics

Why and how it was ever allowed is open to question

Who has the BALLS?

Past Presidents have been assassinated I would counter in their effort to defeat

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 31 weeks ago

Great in-depth article, Thom -- rich in the history and quotes of our nation's founding. It's pure music to hear key moral principles expounded upon by the original scholars and patriots who put their lives on the line to form a government based on them.

We should all pause for a moment to contemplate the incredible depth of their commitment and sacrifice to protect those principles...

...and how far we've strayed in the name of Jesus Christ, Ayn Rand-inspired commercialism/unfettered greed, and worldwide militarism. Religious, economic, military -- all three outside powers our Founders worried most would be wedded to political power -- are now the greatest forces arrayed against the will of the People.

Eisenhower's dire warning also went unheeded: his prophetic "military-industrial-congressional*-complex." (*included in the rough draft of his Farewell Address.)

Was Thomas Hobbes right; are humans too selfish and nasty to govern themselves? Have we deserved fascism in all of its various incarnations down through the ages?

Irja Orav's puzzle pieces aren't just "missing or turned upside-down" -- the whole damn table has been kicked over and the pieces scattered!

gloriapower's picture
gloriapower 5 years 31 weeks ago

My eighth great grandfather had to leave France with his children because Louis and the Catholics were going to kill them. I don't recommend letting other people's religion run your life.

sowat's picture
sowat 5 years 31 weeks ago

What will today's DNC going to say?? How much further, right of center, will the DNC need to go to match this?

Kend's picture
Kend 5 years 31 weeks ago

I agree Religion has no place in politics. With that said I think we where all much safer when pretty much everyone believed if they did not follow the 10 commandments they would not make it to heaven. But those days are gone and all hell has broken loose. In the past it was the church and community that helped the less fortunate. But the government has taken that role over. The new church is "foundations" like the church they collect massive amounts of money for "charity" well the executives live lavish lifestyles flying in private jets, receiving huge wages. Your founding fathers where very smart. Great read Thom. They tried hard to protect you from corruption but it will always be there in some way

stopgap's picture
stopgap 5 years 31 weeks ago

If churches and religions want to have some skin in the game, then at least make them pay taxes like the rest of us. It is insane that we subsidize they very groups that want to bring down our democratic institutions.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 31 weeks ago

Kend. Well said. Can't disagree for the most part except to add a dash of liberal flavor to a few points.

In our representative democratic republic limited by a constitution, "the" goverment is supposed to reflect the will of the People; so it is more accurately described as "our" government. Psychologically, as well as every other way, that's an important distinction, isn't it?

Also, volunteerism through church and community, while a good thing, simply cannot match the sheer number of human beings in desperate need of life-saving assistance. "The Great Hunger" in Ireland put the lie to British naiveté in that regard. (At the higher echelons of power, it was willful ignorance!)

With a large nationwide population during normal times, it's ludicrous to think local efforts can meet the need; in times of crisis, it's a huge crime against humanity! Not to have in place a well-funded welfare system that adequately and successively serves ALL citizens -- when they are in critical need -- is morally wrong no matter the excuses.

Why else insert "general welfare" in the Constitution, as most democracies do?

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 31 weeks ago

This is such a sweeping topic for the weekend anyway, I hope the following isn't too far off the subject. Dana Milbank wrote a pretty funny opinion piece Friday about the bald-faced lies the Republicans are trying to slip past the public with their much-touted tax "reform" (hahaha) proposal for the rich, which the rest of us will be paying for one way or the other:


HotCoffee's picture
HotCoffee 5 years 30 weeks ago

and here's another

URANIUMGATE Explodes: The White Hats Are About To Indict The Black Hats


Legend 5 years 30 weeks ago

28 killed in a church in TX. More thoughts and prayers.

ChristopehrCurrie's picture
ChristopehrCurrie 5 years 30 weeks ago

This article explains A LOT that I didn't already know about the American founding fathers' views regarding the relationship between church and state.


HotCoffee's picture
HotCoffee 5 years 30 weeks ago


Fact checking the fact checker.

In short, when someone attempted to fact check the fact checker, the response was the equivalent of “it's secret.”

It is impossible to understate how antithetical this is to the fact checking world, in which absolute openness and transparency are necessary prerequisites for trust. How can fact checking organizations like Snopes expect the public to place trust in them if when they themselves are called into question, their response is that they can’t respond.


I won't call anyone a fool until all things have concluded.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 5 years 30 weeks ago

Funny how Second Amendment Extremists have total disregard for the First Amendment. I believe that's what our founders would be most perplexed and outraged about. Crooked Donny's gun-toting God and Guns base ignores what the timeless wisdom of freedom "from" religious tyranny means, but are convinced their right to keep and bear assault weapons was handed down from 1791.

The Kochpublican God and Guns base is fed by outlets like Foxaganda News....remember how Obama was coming for everybody's guns? The war on Christmas!... etc.

So we can thank the corpse media for not only Fascism but also this twisted view of our constitutional rights by gullible citizens.

While there seems to be grave concern about Putin attacking our democracy with disinformation, there seems to be no such outcry about Murdoch and his Foxaganda machine undermining our democracy with the same exact strategy???? Hmmmm?

Thom's article is fantastic...brings to mind all sorts of religious fomented evil.... 30 years war, inquisitions, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Crusades, 1692, supposed conversion of Clovis, constant Eastern Roman Empire violence over orthodox christian interpretations, Muslim conquests, Christian conquests in the New World.....never ends...and that's why we have the First Amendment, the most important words in our constitution.

Interested in 18th century Deism? Read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason."

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 5 years 30 weeks ago

Hot Coffee, is it factual that Crooked Donny had a fake university, has had four bankruptcies, has admitted to assaulting women, ships his jobs overseas, hires non citizens to work at his resorts, has lied about Trumpcare being affordable, and is currently lying about middleclass tax breaks? Is it a fact that Kochpublicans hate adding to the deficit when Dems are in power, but could care less when they're in power? The current tax cut for the billionaires sure points to that as a fact.

Is it a fact that McConnell filibustered dems on legislation that would have ended tax breaks for companies shipping jobs overseas? Facts are facts....fake news is the weapon used by Trump and his Fascist owners.

HotCoffee's picture
HotCoffee 5 years 30 weeks ago


And then there is the left that wears halo's and only does good.

changeX's picture
changeX 5 years 30 weeks ago

Is Alabama still considered an actual State, oopsie doo i mean taker State. Thank you California for socializing Alabama's losses.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 30 weeks ago

Oh how right-wing propagandists and their gullible Trump/Republican fringe audience hate Snopes!

HotCoffee in post #15 cites an opinion piece that was essentially nothing more than a veiled ad hominem attack, albeit by a think-tank scholar (who should know better), against David Mikkelson, the founder of Snopes, and it's employees -- as if Kalev Leetaru's personal opinion (and apparent umbrage at being ignored) in any way detracts from Snopes' professional veracity or debunks Legend's sources in post #12. (It doesn't.) The Clinton/uranium conspiracy theory remains fake news as well as the right-wing's hits on Snopes and other fact-checkers who expose their lies.


2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 5 years 30 weeks ago

Speaking of the "gullible Trump/Republican fringe," my own mother, in her 80's now, has Foxaganda News turned on 24/7....sleeps with it on. Her ubiquitous comment to me, "how do you know you're not the one being lied to?" Thus my certainty that Murdoch's brainwashing weapon is effective on the gullible. I'm surprised no one has mentioned DeVos and Pence being as or more dangerous than Roy Moore, and thanks to Trump they're both currently in postions of power.....with Pence soon to be illegitimate leader of the free world.

Legend 5 years 30 weeks ago

Fox says what they want to hear. It is comforting to them. Does not matter if it is true or not.

changeX's picture
changeX 5 years 30 weeks ago

Keywords "Fundamentalist Hustler" no offense to Larry Flynt.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 30 weeks ago

Multiple sourcing from reliable investigative journalists and news outlets is really the only way out of this jungle of big lies, little lies, dumb lies, and smart lies. Most of those trails eventually dead end. Corporate media (lies of omission) stalk us day and night; Alex Jones-inspired packs of wild hyenas lurk in the swamps, but the biggest danger is just the constant, background drumbeat of falsehoods preying on our distracted attention spans and leading us astray.

Easy to get lost, but ultimately the pull of reality is stronger than delusion for most people. After all, a huge majority certainly did not pick this egomaniacal clown to represent the United States of America ...for chrissakes!!! Much to the horror of Trump's big ego and little mind, the People either voted Democratic, third party, or stayed home in disgust at all of the above.

Ou812's picture
Ou812 5 years 30 weeks ago

You washed up lefties still can't accept that Clinton lost and President Trump won. Even the truth about what she did to your messiah,Bernie, won't change your mind. President Trump won the election because he knows how to win. Even though you won't admit it even to yourself, we elect presidents in the USA by the electoral college. Bitch, complain, cry, charge election fraud, voter suppression even the sky is falling, but you won't change the results. President Trump is president until 2020, and then he will be elected for 4 more years:)).

Note to one of the door knobs. Listen to your mother. I'm sure she wonders what mistake she made in raising you.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 30 weeks ago

Thank you, hotdog. You always make my points ...in vivid color!

Ou812's picture
Ou812 5 years 30 weeks ago

@26 ---You're welcome. I always try to help the downtrodden, oppressed and those less fortunate then myself. :)))

deepspace's picture
deepspace 5 years 30 weeks ago

Legend #13. Yeah, all those many, many "moments of silence" in Congress don't seem to be solving the scourge of mass slaughter of civilians from easily available weapons of war, the principal common denominator. And sales rise with every senseless killing.

2950-10K's picture
2950-10K 5 years 30 weeks ago

Bachmann....My mother took off with the next door neighbor while I was still a kid...she didn't raise me. The question remains...what's your excuse for being totally on the wrong side of history?

Ou812's picture
Ou812 5 years 30 weeks ago

Door Knobs:

Since I don't have a time machine, I don't live in the past. Also, since the future never arrives, I don't live in the future. I live in the now! I make the best of whatever comes my way.

"History is written by the Victors ". Winston Churchill

changeX's picture
changeX 5 years 30 weeks ago

Bernie -


from the horses mouth "This is a free-speech zone, so post as much or as little as your black heart desires. If you can't handle my politically incorrect posts, then don't read them and don't respond.”

Dianereynolds's picture
Dianereynolds 5 years 30 weeks ago


Altering the rotation won't help. You and Ms. Bachmann obviously have a thing goin' on.

This is the second time you have commented on Ou812's avatar. Corndogs make you nervous or is something else going on?

Merry Christmas Ou812, what packages to open today?

Remember tomorrow is a double Christmas morning.

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