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I'm not trying to convince anyone, Alice. I will let the facts do that for people who are open to them.
People are welcome to their own opinions, but I keep referencing facts in the hope that a little reality will sink in.
Perhaps one of the problems in the conflation of terms. There seems to be a real misunderstanding in warmist and alarmist circles of the difference in Global Warming, AGW, and Climate Change.
The fact that there is currently no warming in terms of average global surface temperatures - dating back 17+ years and acknowledged by the IPCC and climate scientists and organisations of all stripes - should explain this clearly enough.
Let this be an end to this chain, but I would only be wasting my time if those I converse with have closed their minds and refuse to accept evidence or think for themselves.
Right on Thom! You said it so well. With government we have recourse, with private monopolies we only have prayer. It is high time to take back the commons and put them where they belong--in the hands of We The People! Thanks so much for making that statement so loud and clear.
If you read my book, The Devil's Marriage: Break Up the Corpocracy or Leave Democracy in the Lurch, you wiil see that government and corporate America are married at the groin and that both are corrupt and dangerous.
It's not because I say it is true, Alice.
The facts are the facts, and what I have referenced is not my interpretation of the facts, but the facts.
Please feel free to dispute them, but I would expect at least some kind of evidence or data to do so.
People are welcome to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
Extreme weather events? Not increasing.
AGW causing extreme weather events? Not according to the IPCC as stated in their report, or the UK Met Office (despite what their chief, Julia Slingo said).
The NOAA data showing a cooling trend in the contiguous US states? It's in the data.
No increase in average global surface temperatures in the last 17+ years? Acknowledged by the IPCC, the UK Met Office, just about every expert in the field, and even the temperature record.
You have a nice day, too - the weather is glorious with it being Summer and in no way an CAGW heatwave extreme weather event.
MMmmNACHOS ~ You'll get no argument from me either. Just wishfull thinking on my part. However, from what I've seen watching kids they will always push the limit until you spank them. They have an inert need to know where that limit is. Allowing these banksters and one percenters to skate free just emboldens and encourages them to rinse, lather and repeat. I can only assume that there must be a breaking point. If not then why militarize the police force? Why build internment camps all around the country? Finally, why generously hand over $5 Million of the fine revenue to the department of justice and only $2.5 Million toward "consumer relief"? Hmmm?
Regardless as to whether or not you or I think the people are capable of rising it is quite obvious, my friend, that our Government thinks they are. It's spanking time.
@Chuckle8
"You saying that the IPCC says it does not mean the IPCC says it."
What does that even mean? It is in the report and has been widely publicised.
"you seem to ignore my comment comparing what you say to the people saying there was a death panel in the ACA."
I ignored the death panel comment as it had no relation to reality or my comments.
How can my stating a known fact, easily verifiable, be equated with the death panel myth?
So called extreme weather events have decreased in numbers and severity. How can you doubt this? The stats are clear.
The IPCC says they have no confidence in a relation between extreme weather events and man made global warming. Are they deniers (horrible word that it is)?
"I should mention there are global warming almost deniers (who you would call deniers) that I agree with, I agree that if there were a super volcano anything we do with ancient sunlight exploiters would be meaningless. I agree in the same vane with a meteor striking the earth."
What are you on? What is your problem?
I would not call anyone a denier and have appended any mention of the word with a caveat stating I think it's use is wholly inappropriate.
I am trying to remain polite and civil here, but is English not your first language (not that that is a problem, but may explain your difficulty in understanding)? Is common sense and rational discourse not in your skill set?
'Bill Maher said.... seems more factual than anything you have presented" - Bill Maher said? You accuse me of not quoting facts (when I clearly state facts and reference sources) and then come out with something like "Bill Maher said...." and expect to be taken seriously? Think you're scoring points somehow?
Take a step back, dude. Chill a second. Read what you have written, examine your beliefs (for they are clearly based on a belief system) and try to reassess.
Whilst you're at it there is a website you must try: www.lmgtfy.com
I get more sense and understanding from my 10 year old.
Sven -- You saying that the IPCC says it does not mean the IPCC says it. You seem to ignore my comment comparing what you say to the people saying there was a death panel in the ACA.
Bill Maher said there were something like 5500 articles in peer reviewed scientific journals dealing with climate change. 2 of them were from global warming deniers. This seems more factual than anything you have presented.
I should mention there are global warming almost deniers (who you would call deniers) that I agree with, I agree that if there were a super volcano anything we do with ancient sunlight exploiters would be meaningless. I agree in the same vane with a meteor striking the earth.
Ian -- I find it interesting that you do not find economics useful because you like a methodology that is mathematically based. The main fault I have with economics is that it is too mathematically based. Paul Krugman pointed this out in an article in Sunday NY Times magazine. He was implying that since economists need tractable mathematical solutions they cherry pick data. He stated mea culpa.
I think that is why I like Larry Beinharts (a novelist) view of the economy. He says for the economy to be doing well not only does the GDP have to be having positive gains, so do the DOW, the number of jobs and the median wage (inflation adjusted). Tract that!
If oil companies had to pay their way, they could not even turn a profit. No extractor could. By subsidizing them, making them profitable, we are paying for our own destruction.
A better way is to not subsidize anybody for anything. Instead, government would merely distribute a dividend to citizens from society’s surplus. What’s that? Earth’s worth. It’s all the money that we spend for the nature we use. The land portion of mortgages. The value of oil in the ground embedded in the price of gasoline. Such “rents” are embedded in the price of everything we buy.
With its power to tax or fine or charge fees or institute dues, government could redirect this spending from oil companies and banks, etc, into the public treasury then back out as a Citizen’s Dividend. Even oil company owners and bosses would get their share. But it’d be a tiny fraction of the subsidies they’re getting now. More at Progress.org.
PAL...you got me shifting too... [hold on while I swallow these shrooms...Okay I'm back]
Now I do get what you are saying about small business being just as much an issue, maybe even more so, as large corporations, i.e. Wal-Mart (as well as Target and the like), however I am not shifting because I agree with your "reverse pyscology" theory.
What we need is complete and utter break down (mass world chaos)...Like what George Carlon use to riff about.
"The System" is not broke..The system has is fine for how it was created; To opperate at "haywire"!!!
You cannot fix such a mess with rational thinking, no sir! You cannot try and be logical with those that are illogical.
What "We" need...What the world needs is complete chaos where EVERYTHING shuts down and pandamonium sets it. Who will be left? What will they do? Would they be able to revert back to using their primal brains as a way of survival, or will they continue to be zombies and just eat more brain until NOTHING is living???NOTHING!
But maybe there would be a chance for survival if a few of us - those not on the Right, the Left nor so trendy in the middle - just saw to it that the entire story of Mother Culture, and the Levers and the Takers was told. That too much to the Right or Left is not good. That YES you have to accept and allow for edd and flow...That you may be able to ignor reality, but you cannot ignor the consequences of dismissing reality, and that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
THe Ant Farm needs to purge itself otherwise it IS going to collaps.
small business, BIG business, Republican, Democrate, Organized Religion...Yadda Yadda Yadda!!! In "this System" it all feeds off itself.
Working with your friendly local corporate behemoth:
Don't CALL!!! Write the company so that you have a paper trail. DOCUMENT! Send a copy of what the company sends you along with your reply. Be reasonable and don't talk with anyone on the phone about your complaint/request. You don't build up a case over the phone. Email is okay if you keep a file on the total situation. Mail your response with a "proof of delivery" for critical items. Mail response gives you time to think and stay cool which the phone interchange denies you.
PD, I get your point about Walmart and the despicable voting habits of small business owners. But I haven't shopped at Walmart in close to a decade and I'm not about to change my ways. Their prices aren't that cheap anyway.
Small business owners are a bunch of idiots. They are against single-payer healthcare! I guess they like being in control of their (female) employees' healthcare for "religious" purposes.
Bottom line, my friends: Pick your poison! - Aliceinwonderland
Nachos, I hate to disappoint ya honey, but you're getting no tongue lashings from me. I've learned my lesson about "fear votes" and agree with every word in your post. Next election, I'll vote for my favorite candidate. No more compromises!! And I also agree with your observations concerning Occupy's lack of leadership and structure. Whatever the ideology behind that decision, it had Occupy doomed from the start. We on the left need leadership and need to get our butts ORGANIZED or we're toast. - AIW
I will NEVER vote for that war mongering, "free trade" pushing bitch. I'll cut off my arm first. Like I said, not just any black person or woman will do! BERNIE SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT!! - AIW
Oh well, if Sven Mills says so it must be true. Or whatever. What seems clear to me is that you've your own interpretation of the "facts". Have a nice day, Mr. Mills. - AIW
MMmmNACHOS: I agree with most of what you have said but I shift a little on the subject of Walmart. I believe that a little reverse psychology might work better. Let's all only shop at Walmart and boycott all of the other little businesses that are most like Obamney and Robama. They are the ones who are in great number, who provides the largest voting population prone to voting against the best interests of the majority of the population. It is they who put pressure on their even greater base of employees, in total, than Walmart to vote against their best interests. Yes, Walmart is the largest single employer but compared to the total of all other businesses, they are a minority. Let's put the pressure on all those other businesses by only buying products and services from Walmart. Besides, their products are usually more inexpensive than their competitors.
Yes, Walmart is despicable in many ways but they are not despicable when it comes to their prices. And most of us do not have much of a choice anyway when it comes to price. We have to buy where the prices are the lowest. And, really, it's the smartest thing to do. Why pay more for something that you can get for less? The other merchants who compete with Walmart will just have to live with the monsters that they have created. Now, if they want to change the system, they can put the pressure on our politicians and legal system to make and enforce laws that will put the reins on the rapacious wolves who become too powerful and exploitative.
North Dakota still operates under a State Bank...I knkow that's not close to going completely Social Democracy but...
Yes indeed!
Funny how our justice system is soooooo heavy handed when it comes to interpeting legal statutes and dolling out punishment on individuals (real humans). Often times the punishment is Mandated and sever.
But if your a BIG CORPORATION its a completely different ball game...Corporations seem to be treated as if they have diplomatic immunity.
If you wanna change the way the game is being played...STOP PLAYING "THEIR" GAME!!!
Boycott Wal-Mart!
Stop shopping there, stop working there, and stop investing into Wal-Mart.
Unfortunatly most Americans are too lazy, too dumb, and too selfish to sacrafice a little of themselves in order to...Oh wait I've gotta go watch American Idol...There is a commercial I wanna see for some new product that I just gotta have...It's supose to make life easier!
Now that is saying something profound!
WHY!?!? You ask...
Because the government is owned and opperated by Wall Street (The Bank).
Let me ask you this...Who do you bank with? If you are not banking with a credit union or a small community bank you are just as much at fault, becasue not only are you having your money held by those that you condem (and they are evil), but also all those fees and charges they impose go right into their pockets.
Have a lovely day!
The wheels on the bus go round and round...
I haven't heard of any organized up-risings, with hundreds of thoudsands of protesters taking to the streets and marching on...Oh wait there was that brief moment of unorganized occupation on wall street that did spawn a 3 ring circus of chaos.
Now DANNEMARC, don't get me wrong, I was excited when I first heard about this movement, i even went to participate in one of the protests here in my town, which is about 90% right wing conservative, but unfortunatly my enthusiasm, not my ideals, dwindled after about 3 weeks when the movement refused to organize a leader.
So when YOU say - in a threatining tone "When the people become wise to it there will be hell to pay" I cannot help but laugh (sadly), and this is why; The majority of the 99% voted for OBAMA...(*)Out of fear! We the People will NEVER take back this corporate highjacked Government as long as we continue to remain unorganized and vote with our tail between our legs!
You wanna give these corporate swine "hell", then get organized, bring your own music to the dance, stop casting FEAR VOTES, and STOP VOTING FOR WALL STREET GROOMED CANDIDATES, (period)!
Empty threats never bring about positive change.
(*) Out of fear...Fear of what... Romney...Voting the black guy out!?!? The only thing different about Romney compared to Obama is the colour of his skin, and even that isn't to much of a difference! So instead of Robama we got Obamney, and Wall Street is okay with that.
(I am sure ALICE IN WONDERLAND will give me one of her loooooooong winded tongue lashings as to "how and why" we are better of with Obama as CEO of the UCA (United Corporations of America). I can't wait to hear this one. ;) )
Cheers!
Punishment is supposed to be PUNATIVE. If corporations (banks) are PEOPLE now; they should be subject to the SAME LAWS AND PUNISHMENTS as the REAL HUMANS. I don't get to write-off my fines. Why hasn't that lawsuit been brought forward--of course we know how the K-RATS in the Supreme Court will vote--why haven't those intellectual light-weights and corporate/political hacks been impeached yet? Clearly, they qualify under the Court rules and the Constitution--the document they swear to uphold, but have done nothing but piss on it.
Fines for today's business missdeeds are not punative enough and allow tax write-offs. These monies should be paid out of the personal salaries of the offenders and from stockholder dividends and NO tax write-offs allowed and no charging the CONSUMER.
This reminds me of a 1990s story in which a railroad committed a misdeed in Florida and was taken to court. The railroad was found guilty and fined, but THEY did not pay the fine--the US taxpayer paid the fine. So they walked away scott-free and were free to committ the misdeed in the future--why not? No PUNISHMENT--everything to gain--nothing to lose for them. REAL people should be so lucky.
Oh, well if Bill Maher says so it must be true.
New Rule - let's look at facts, eh instead of TV panel show hosts opinions?
Who funds the IPCC? It is a UN body, so that should be clear enough.
But overall, why is there a shying away from facts?
It is quite clear in the latest IPCC report that there is no confidence in a link between AGW and extreme weather.
It is quite clear from historical data that extreme weather events are not increasing in frequency or severity.
This is not my interpretation. This is in the data, the reports, the evidence.
How can tbhis be denied (for want of a better word)?
;-}