Quote Palindromedary:You mean that they "overturn the money changer's tables" or "go down into the land of Canaan, kill every man and man-child...take the women and girls as sex slaves...steal their property" or "offer their young females to be ravaged by the deviates who want to bugger their male guests" or "generally treat women as chattel" or "sacrificing one's son at the alter on on a cross?" That kind of thing?

Palindromedary ~ No! Perhaps I should have said "Christian" principles of the Bible. However, it is true when you get down to it that any church that reveres the Bible as the word of God is going to be cherry picking the verses and books that it wants to believe. It has to because so much in the Bible clearly contradicts itself. Yet most of my dealings with the Baptist church of the ghetto has been in an official capacity servicing their office equipment. It is quite amazing the difference between a Baptist church in the ghetto and one in a white affluent neighborhood. You might get a kick out of this. When dealing with the black magistrates of the very same church I find them to be honest, appreciative, generous, humble, and very friendly. When dealing with the white magistrates of a very wealthy Baptist church I found them to be deceptive, cheap, bitter, arrogant, and vindictive. One call in the rich church I'll never forget. I did everything I could to help them and keep the costs down. It was a miracle I got their equipment back up at all considering how neglected it was. However, they needed about $2K of parts to really fix it. I told them what I did was temporary and that was it--a day or two, two weeks at best at minimum use. They never approved the estimate. Six months later we get the call that the machine is down again and they want immediate service because we were just there. Come on. Give me a break. Luckily I keep copies of all my paperwork. When I got there I was both blown away by how much they used the machine that I told them only had a bandaid on it. (Actually, I was also quite impressed by my own handiwork--almost as much as I was shocked by the Deacon's lack of faith in my advice.) He wanted me to bandage the machine for another 6 months. When I told him that was impossible he became furious and threatened to sue us. Not wanting to--not being able to--continue the conversation without saying anything nasty I excused myself. I had to laugh on the way to the car because the guy totally screwed himself by not believing anything I told him. (I kinda suspected he might be like that when I first met him which is why I took the time to put it all in writing and have him sign it the first time I went there. His threatened lawsuit was dead in the water from the word go and he was completely SOL.

Whenever I've gone to poor churches in my business capacity I'm always inspired to see these poor people volunteering for food drives, running homeless kitchens, participating in out reach programs, or even serving the homeless who are waiting in line as I arrive. I have yet to stumble upon any rich churches doing the same with the same enthusiasm.

That's just my business experience. Between you and me I hate servicing churches. I just don't feel comfortable in them for many reasons. I also have a conflict of interests charging them. It seems like something I should be willing to do for free in many instances; yet, contributing to the obvious sham some of these churches are is equally abhorrent to me. I'd prefer just not dealing with them all together. They give me the creeps. However, that is not my decision.

Quote Palindromedary:With all those slaves, who willingly accept their lowly condition while letting others trample all over them, why should the ruling elite, or their wannabes, try to deviate from this easy exploitation-of-others path?

Palindromedary ~ You make a very good and sad point. I thoroughly agree.

By the way, I'm sorry I even brought this up. No hard feelings I hope.

ChicagoMatt: Yes, I agree that these things get pretty messy and it's too bad that the riled up crowds don't go after the ones at the top. They lash out at those who are closest and most visibly wealthy. But often, they do such stupid things like destroying their own downtrodden neighborhoods.

I agree that it is a very good thing to be armed. You have to protect you and yours when the cops can't..or won't. I am afraid that I might be just as much a victim as anyone else in such an unstable situation.

Quote ChicagoMatt:Are we going to try to bring everyone to the average? Do you see how half of the people - the above average half - might get a little angry about that?

Didn't they stop using the term "global warming" awhile ago, in exchange for "climate change" or, lately, "climate wierding"?

The fact that it's May 4th, and I am still wearing my coat here in Chicago concerns me.

I have faith that someone, maybe some evil corporation that wants to make a lot of money, will figure out a way to get the pollution OUT of the atmosphere. It will be difficult though - the really bad stuff is right on the edge of space. I'm thinking weather balloon-mounted scrubbers of some sort.

ChicagoMatt: But, on the Titanic, the rich people were more free to jump ship, ie: save themselves, than the poor ones shut up in the below decks. I think that the world is a sinking Titanic, and all the rich people may survive just a little bit longer than the poor people but even they will not be able to survive much longer than the rest.

The Titanic was a monstrous waste of resources and had all that steel been used in making smaller, more maneuverable ships, the death toll would have been much smaller if one of them had hit an iceberg and perhaps, being more maneuverable, might have even avoided hitting an iceberg in the first place.

Perhaps those egocentric and narcissistic bombastions (I made it up...like palindromedary) of capitalism need to have their bubbles burst in the interest of saving the world from themselves. The Czars and French Kings, and all of those wealthy dandies of the times, saw what could happen when the people, the masses, finally have had enough.

The Titanic (touted to be unsinkable) was such an ego deflator (however temporary). As the world becomes more uninhabitable and the costs of just being able to eat and breathe becomes much more difficult, the world's populations may very well explode with desperation and rip those arrogant, selfish, capitalist criminals apart. Some of those arrogant capitalists know what's coming and some are even trying to prepare for it by building palatial underground bunkers.

anarchist cop out: Actually overturning money changers tables is a very good idea. I have nothing against it.

You can see race based affirmative action as reverse racism but I think that's a kinda short sighted, "small picture" view of it. Its purpose, of course, is to make up for unjust disadvantages that are found in the structure of our society resulting from more active past and current injustices when dealing out a limited number of opportunities..

It is possible to take that victim stuff too far and play the race, gender or whatever of victim card but I don't think it happens as often as you might think. In any case, it doesn't change the fact of genuine victimization.

A poor laborer I knew once said, "The harder you work in this country the less you get paid and the more money you steal the less time you do in jail." That was around the time Conrad Black, CEO of Hollinger International, the newspaper firm which published the Chicago Sun Times, The London Daily Telegraph and The Jerusalem Post, among others, was in the news for sealing $80 million from the firm. It was expected that he would do no time in jail - he eventually served 5 years.

The poor work harder than anyone else They work hard, shitty, most repulsive, detestable and dangerous jobs - often two or three at once - for nickels and no insurance or benefits. The poor are so poor, or so underpaid, not because they don't work hard but because, unlike the rich and better off, they lack power.

A very stark example illustrating this would be that of the undocumened worker. Undocumented workers are famous for their untiring dilligence and brilliant competence - and also for their extreme poverty (or undercompensation). Their undocumented status gives them a severe disadvantage in negotiaing with an employer as to make their negotiating strentgh practically nil.

Any individual laborer lacks the power to negotiate a free and fair contract with an employer of almost any size or potency but does when combining and uniting with other workers and laborers and bargaining collectively.

Quote ChicagoMatt:

Just like illegal immigrants and the wealthy, depending on which side of an issue you're on.

... or racial miorities and the poor, etc.. Although, wealthy people are, in fact, responsible for the state of society as they have greatly disproportionate power and influence and generally don't hesitate to exercise it - usually to create and maintain more power and privilege for themselves, commonly at the expense of all other societal values. Some, like the Kochs, do that on a massive scale affecting not only our society but the entire world as well.

It was actually a ruse of the neocon PR machine at the early stages of the "conservative revolution", the late '70s to early '80s, to riff on the current lefty political narratives of the time and try to characterize the rich and powerful as "victims of society".

Quote Palindromedary:

Quote DAnneMarc:

They are one of the few churches who actually adhere to the principles of the Bible.

You mean that they "overturn the money changer's tables" or "go down into the land of Canaan, kill every man and man-child...take the women and girls as sex slaves...steal their property" or "offer their young females to be ravaged by the deviates who want to bugger their male guests" or "generally treat women as chattel" or "sacrificing one's son at the alter on on a cross?" That kind of thing?

If I may jump in, I think what Marc meant was that they follow the principles of the Gospels. The Bible is such an amalgam of stuff that has so many contradictions that you can justify just about anything you want from the Bible. I may believe in God - and I don't know yet what form it takes or what nature it has - but of one thing I am sure and that is that the Bible is not the word of God, at least, not one, anyway, that would have my allegiance - or my credulity.

Whatsa matter with overturning money changers' tables? You got a thing for private property rights?

I believe that teachers are way underpaid for their education level and importance to us. I believe they deserve far more in compensation than some of the scum bag CEOs or Wall Street flim-flammers. But I also think that the school system should be totally public and heavily financed (to pay for top quality teachers not burdened with trying to make ends meet all the time..paying for their own teaching materials, etc). We need universal healthcare so people won't be put on the auction block and sold as slaves to the highest bidders. We need to get rid of the elitism in educational systems. There needs to be a leveling out of our school systems...no more "ivy league" or private "proselytizing institutions" or expensive colleges or universities. There needs to be a leveling out of those who have managed to get extremely wealthy by screwing everyone else out of their money. We need a system where no rapacious wolves could manage to get filthy rich while leaving everyone else in poverty. Such people don't play fair and use their greedy talents to wheedle people out of the little they have. We could have a better chance of coexisting more peacefully with much less stress over monetary worries.

After experiencing capitalism, is it any wonder many Russians want to go back to the way it was before capitalism? All it did was produce a few extremely wealthy people and a lot more extremely poor people....just like is happening here in the US.

Palin you have me confused with Mexicans. Canadians respect your laws and borders. I can't move Down there Without the proper paper work and what I do would take a job from a American. By the way Pocatella Idaho would be half way For me. Nice place though.

Conseratives don't want to tell someone how wealthy they can be, or tell us what health care system we can have. They don't think they should limit how big a company can be. conservatives want to limit the amount of taxes to just paying for basic needs not taxing so everybody can have cable TV and cell phones. I think you might get my point, so no conservatives don't have running my life on the agenda.