And I agree with you "ragingdemo", so lighten up... Sheesh! What I still don't quite get is why you need to cop a demeanor that comes across like you assume nobody but you understands the crap that's going on and how we all are effected. Is this the reason you're so antagonistic towards Thom and me and this whole discussion?! No need to compete with others like that, just to get a point across. This isn't some contest just one of us is supposed to win. I simply believe it's good for everyone's mental health to swap notes, opinions, perspectives and life stories relating to the socioeconomic shit storm we're in, because it is stressful and it sucks, and because sometimes getting different takes on it can be helpful. If "talking it to death" is how you choose to characterize it, please remember, participateion here is not mandatory.

Thom Hartmann is no slouch. What's more, he's attracted very bright minds into this conversation. Let's not forget- we're all in this together, like it or not. Might as well make the best of it. - Alice I.W.

I believe that nothing would have changed the swing in politics (c.1920s-1940s) without massive unrest and demonstrations since our political system can so easily be corrupted by big money. Even left-wing/liberal politicians can easily be bought off if they come to believe that it is futile to fight against those powers; and, if they hope to keep their jobs they had better play ball with those with all the money and power. Then, they have to pretend even harder (through words...not actions) to represent their liberal constituents. They know that they can always use the vote-for-the-least-evil strategy in the next election.

In order for the top 1% to maintain their control over the masses they know that they need to do it by manipulating what they think and how they act. They know that the masses could, at any time, overthrow them and make them paupers (and they would be lucky if they didn't lose their heads in the process). Yes, the initial struggle by those in power would create quite a mess...but they would end up losing their heads in the end all the same. I hope it never happens in the US. No one wants to see that happen for sure. But, when things look bleak enough it could very well come to pass. Just like all the leaders in those countries like Iran (overthrow of the Shah), Libya (Ghadafi), Egypt (Mubarak)(Morsi?), and soon to be.. Syria (Assad) ... when the people are backed into a corner..starving, the wealthy elite arrogantly live it up. What will it take to push Americans over the edge to the same kind of struggles? Sacrificing social programs like Social Security, Medicare, etc? Rising supermarket prices to unaffordable levels while they do hardly anything to reduce Pentagon spending or don't raise taxes on the wealthy? Loved ones dying because they can't afford medical care? Many Americans are losing hope and feel boxed in...many Americans are even committing suicide or resorting to other forms of violence. Why would they not, as in other countries, turn that against the ruling elite? Isn't it inevitable?

The psychology of making many people believe they all have the ability to make it to the top as well keeps some people in line. Scare tactics like leaking the story of 500 Million rounds of hollow point bullets may also be part of the psychological manipulation of the masses.

This is especially true of the few percentage points just below the top 1%..they are almost there and don't want any obstacles to prevent them from making it too. They are used as a buffer between the top 1% and the hordes of "just getting by" who may not yet quite be starving in the streets. The "just getting by"..the 95% are not yet sufficiently downtrodden to realize they are next. The stark realism hasn't hit them yet. But it will! The trend is definitely in that direction. And many of them can be conquered and divided using Propagandistic outlets like Fox (so-called News) and CNN...

Shows like Fareed Zakaria, on CNN, have nothing but right wing nuts spouting the Republican talking points of the necessity of cutting social programs. Sometimes they don't say it right out ("cut social programs") but they will strongly hint cutting social programs. And one thing you never, ever hear from these people...we need to cut Pentagon spending. The two things that drove America into such a financial mess was the stupid illegal wars in the middle east and tax breaks for the rich. Excuse me...other very big things: repeal of Glass-Steagall Act, letting Mortgage and Real Estate scamsters and Wall Street Ponzi and Derivative schemers get away with trillons of dollars...and bailing out the criminal schemers that lost other people's money. The social programs have nothing to do with the terrible state of our economy today.

Dear Alice...You Thom and the rest can talk this to death as many times as you all like to but at the end of the day there are those who either born into it self made billionaire or however it's those that reach that level that soon fall prey to there own ego and the arrogance that level of greed buys . It's just a sad disgraceful shame that wisdom empathy or compassion in even the smallest amount was never even a concideration unless it's a member of his or her own family but even then is that really what it is can a person turn wisdom or empathy on and off remember many of these billionaires are members of chuches or is it that they feel anyone who makes an hourly wage is somehow less than a human being and because they can purchase political power and hourly wage earners can't maybe they feel above everyone else, I've worked for some very wealthy "OLD MONEY" Westchester county NY people and everyone of them in some way or another proved that To much cash and power does tend to give people a GOD LIKE complex that only get worse as time moves on call it mega greed call it cash Language call it whatever you like they still feel above everyone else and feel fine buying political favor Judges, Senators hell Alice even the Whitehouse can be bough just what do you think happened in 2000 .... It's all very perverted very ugly and when it happens those less cash flush pay dearly with the poor paying with there lives... Thats very very ugly..

Aliceinwonderland, HAARP is High frequency Active Auroral Research Program.

It's interesting what wikipedia says about it:

"HAARP has been blamed by conspiracy theorists for a range of events, including numerous natural disasters. HAARP is an attractive target for conspiracy theorists because "its purpose seems deeply mysterious to the scientifically uninformed"."

So either ragingdemo is either scientifically uniformed or there's something going on. The latter is always my natural inclination, having been brought up to question everything. I'm also a natural born supporter of Thom, Ken Ware, 2050-10K and all the other good guys. Can't understand people like Global. I once lived next door to a lady in Texas who was absolutely conviced tha Fox News was fair and balanced (because they said so, I suppose).

Well I'll be...! Your latest reply popped up while I was still busy answering your previous one! And by jingles, I THOUGHT that looked like some kind of war plane in the photo you've used for your blog logo.

By the way, I'm never bored. Got too much going on to be bored.

I appreciate you acknowledging that these coversations are worth having. And I don't totally begrudge you your grouchiness because I too am a grouch. You've met your match, pal.

Peace, love an' grooviness! - Alice I.W.

What's more Mister Ware (you grouchy old cynic!), I reject your assertion that mass demonstrations did nothing to end the Vietnam War. Noam Chomsky would beg to differ, as do I. Had we not risen up and made all that noise, our peers would have been stuck fighting & dying in Indochina for another twenty years!

I suggest you lighten up and open your mind to other points of view. Because the truth is, Ken, reality is never one-dimensional.

Have a lovely Christmas. - Aliceinwonderland

Wow, I thought I was the only one who went back and re-read the comments when I am bored! It is good to have this conversation or exchange of ideas. Hope you have a good weekend and week. Perhaps you are right, let’s see how much impact we have with the decisions the Republicans and Obama make concerning the so call fiscal cliff scenario. I personally think neither side is concerned with the people that will suffer from it. I have a feeling that this whole dog and pony show is being performed by both sides so they can let the cuts take place that will be the same as adopting a policy of austerity without having to admit it to the people in each respective party. They can blame the other side for the cuts to the poor and middle class and initialize a policy of austerity for Americans without being the "bad guys" and like I said blame it on the other party. And the Republicans can still call for further cuts in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I really hope I am wrong, but I do not trust the Obama administration and the Republicans as far as I could toss an F4-Phantom across a flight deck...(the aircraft on my picture area is an F-4)

Aliceinwonderland – If you believe what we have to say here is important to any politician you are being self-delusional. The only time Washington or local politicians react to what we say is during the election cycle. Take for instance the Occupy Wall ST. group, what have they accomplished except to let the police hone their police tactics. I grew up during the 60's and served during the Vietnam War and in reality the marches did very little to bring the War to an end. It was the election cycle that brought the war to an end and the monetary costs. As you have heard Hartmann mention, Nixon went behind Johnson's political back and made a deal with the Premier of S. Vietnam during an election year so he could have an advantage over Humphrey in the 68' election. It was five more years until we brought the troops home. After Nixon was elected he continued the War until 73’. Our voices matter when the votes are going to be counted and in between you’re talking into the wind unless you are donating large sums of cash to the politicians. Sorry to bust your bubble of self-worth. This is the new America, not the era our grandfathers voted in...You have nothing to worry about concerning the government unless you make any type of (perceived) threatening remark in this age of no tolerance from the Government towards the people’s right to free speech. But, step out of line and the man will come and take you away.. It is a lyric from one of my favorite songs from the 60's. I think if you read what Palindromedary commented yesterday, he basically is saying the same thing. I am not saying engaging others in conversation isn't useful to ourselves and to those that engage in the conversation, but it has no direct impact on our politicians. And it is highly doubtful Hartmann even reads the comments on his own Blog, it is basically a business for him and other political commentators. Bombs Away...Politics in our nation and around the World is a game of War. A war that we presently are losing to the wealthiest in our country. We should never stop fighting regards of the outcome of our actions and reactions from our politicians. But words are no match for the hundreds of millions of dollars that have an actuall impact on the decision making in Washington.

Aliceinwonderland – If you believe what we have to say here is important to any politician you are self-delusional. The only time Washington or local politicians react to what we say is during the election cycle. Take for instance the Occupy Wall ST. group, what have they accomplished except to let the police hone their police tactics. I grew up during the 60's and served during the Vietnam War and in reality the marches did very little to bring the War to an end. It was the election cycle that brought the war to an end and the monetary costs. As you have heard Hartmann mention, Nixon went behind Johnson's political back and made a deal with the Premier of S. Vietnam during an election year so he could have an advantage over Humphrey in the 68' election. It was five more years until we brought the troops home. After Nixon was elected he continued the War until 73’. Our voices matter when the votes are going to be counted and in between you’re talking into the wind unless you are donating large sums of cash to the politicians. Sorry to bust your bubble of self-worth. This is the new America, not the era our grandfathers voted in...You have nothing to worry about concerning the government unless you make any type of (perceived) threatening remark in this age of no tolerance from the Government towards the people’s right to free speech. But, step out of line and the man will come and take you away.. A lyric from one of my favorite songs from the 60's. Read what my friend Palindromdary commented and you will see I am not alone in my thoughts.

P.P.S... Anyone home? Hello?

P.S. ragingdemo or whoever: what is HAARP?