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The wealthy have been conduction a war on the rest of us for at least the last 30 years..since Reagan. They worked to constantly reduce our wages, reduce their taxes but raise ours, reduce decent safety nets like health care, social security, medi-care, and all the other social programs. Then they began shipping our jobs over seas. They used the FIRE economy to destroy industry in this country...used deceitful practices in all sectors of the finance, insurance, and real estate areas to squeeze us to a state where all we have left is to die or rebel. We have a criminal war that is murdering hundreds of thousands of children, women, and men that did not deserve to die. They set a very bad example for the rest of us who know we are in a civil war, albeit, a financial one right now, and our enemies are the greedy, criminal, connivers and their ability to control congress and our President. They often setup patsies to carry out an action to shock the people into a state of malleability. The one thing that these criminals are afraid of is that the masses can communicate and unify against them..well, maybe eventually. So, what to do? Well, they do own and control the major media and so they can confuse us and get us riled up against each other. By having their hate-mongering commentators rile up some people, increasing the conflict, getting people so upset they go out and kill a Congresswoman, for example, they may just be succeeding in their goal of shutting us all up so that none of us can ever speak out against tyranny. They win by shutting us up. So, the more times someone goes out and does this martyrdom kind of thing it makes everyone point fingers at first, but then they start thinking that we need to clamp down on everyone's ability to express themselves or complain against injustices.
While this event is incredibly tragic, maybe now the American people will start to wake up to the dangers of the completely irresponsible corporate media and right wing hate radio. It's possibly more tragic that we had to arrive at this juncture in order to get that point across. But if any good can come of this violence, it may be that we see a more progressive future and thus one that promotes reason and logic over violence and fundamentalism.
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Well said Mr. Hartman! I am afraid that things will not change. Fox news, and talk radio hosts were actually trying to paint themselves as innocent victims in all of this. I personally do not believe the young man responsible for these deaths and injuries was motivated directly from any one person or party. I believe he is sick in the head. But with that said I will say that I do believe that the last campaign season could not have helped. There were so many violent comercials played over and over again. It was starting to sound like we had reverted back to the Wild West. It seems that ever since Sara Palin hit the scene things have gotten rather nasty. I feel like Pandora's box has been opened and God help us we need to close it. This is America. Land of the Proud and Free. At least it used to be. Now it seems to be more like Land of Hatred. If last weekends events don't wake up this country nothing will.
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In order to restore sanity to the poltical broadcast arena, all stations that cater to news and opinions must be made to return to the fairness doctrine. When Fox has to provide equal time to opposing views, they will clean up their act. Similarly for MSNBC. Imagine if the left got equal time alongside Rush Limbaugh...
Sarah Palin should bow out of public life. Her constant use of guns as a means of getting her message across became a call to violence. She has no basis to continue in public life as a politician. Perhaps the Supreme Court will now think again about the ability of local and state governments to pass gun control laws.
Finally, the killing of Christina Green is the ultimate tragedy here. A girl born on 9/11 dies at the hands of a domestic terriorist. The tragic irony of a 9 year old girl who was interested enough in public service to attend this event to get struck down is horrific. This happens in 3rd World dictatorships. It must not happen here.
For profit or patriotism - Guess it depends whether you're Fox News or MSNBC.
Yes, Thom, the FCC has the power to NOT renew the licenses of the hate mongers, (Rupert Murdoch hate-mongering machine, for instance). Isn't it how Father Loughlin was silenced in the 1950s?
Hatred begets hatred. As long as there is unbridled anger, there will be those who lash out at the least provocation. The Palins in the world have realized how easy it is to tap into that well of anger and they have successfully done exactly that.
And so, it seems that we have arrived at the juncture where Ms.Angle's "2nd Amendment Solutions" have come into play - far sooner than I'd anticipated they would. The recommendation came from only one state to the north of Jared Loughner's home.
I guess, however, that I owe the state of Arizona a sort of a vote of thanks in one respect - they showed us who they are, in no uncertain terms, and did so in time to save me from making the mistake of retiring there. My wife and I had been considering that move a couple years ago. But with SB1070, and now this tragedy, I now know that there is no place for the likes of me in Arizona.
"But it's a DRY hate!"
Little late to issue a word of caution in the midst of high emotions over the weekend's events.
One thing we should have learned from Bush and 911 is that we had the sympathy of the whole world after 911, but Bush squandered it by going on the offensive.
It's not exactly the same but I would have gone that opposite way regarding this weekend, but after hearing Stephanie's show and yours, it appears the ship has sailed.
The Michael Moore analogy of a Muslim targeting people and then another killing one of the targets is also a stretch. I adore Moore, but that would be like a person targeting people for death and then another killing based on that vs the reality which was targeting election seats regarding an election and one without the pressence of mind to understand that taking it literally as targeting the person for death. If the Muslim was implying that muslims need to get out and vote and the targets were political races, then maybe, but I don't think the Moore analogy allows for that.
If the following website is true, democrats have also used images with targets during elections.
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=13647
I loath Palin, but I would again, recomend moarning the victims before jumping on the vitriol bandwagon.
If one feels the need to do so, there are the more blatant events to look at such as;
http://proarizona.blogspot.com/2011/01/flashback-gifford-opponents-had-m16.html
Regarding your statement about talking to your neighbors, a look at any of the target maps shows that my neighbors were all in blue states. (I now live in Germany) The big problem is regional, imho. Rural, provincial, conservative areas are usually devoid of large percentages of academics and academic instituitons and full of propanganda bombardment and the icing on the cake, huge influence by authoritarian right wing religious institutions that I find anything but Christian, and that indoctrinate kids from a young age.
I think more liberals don't want their children growing up in that atmosphere and move out of those areas asap. Attempts of prosilitation to these types is usually met with disbelief. It would be like you convincing Gainor that hes wrong.
I don't really have any solutions for this.
History unfortunately shows that if people don't learn from the past and take the path of knowledge and solidarity over fear and authoritarianism, as they have in much of Europe, then the path of change is usually through chaos and catastrophe.
For a while on the day of the shooting at the Tucson Safeway, the police were looking for a second man seen on security cameras in the store. It turned out the second man was the cab driver who went in the store to get the shooter change for a twenty. Even though he planned to shoot a lot of people (4 clips) Laughner stopped to get change from a $20 for the cab ride.
I think this is significant for two reasons. First, I repeat: Even though he planned to shoot alot of people (4 clips) Laughner stopped to get change from a $20 for the cab ride. To my mind it shows how individual wealth is normally held as more important than other people's lives in the US. Second, I think this will be used by the prosecution against any insanity defense by Mr. Loughner. Get it? Because he stopped to get his change this will be used as proof that Laughner wasn't insane and intended to survive: this overt action where Loughner got his change for a twenty before killing people will be used as proof of sanity.
Thank you Thom for focussing on how the right wing nuts in the media are trying to label the shooter as a liberal(?!?) nut. I am not surprised by this 'spin' from the WND and Fox - they began almost immediately after shooting on the internet [HillBuzz, etc.]: the right once again on offense with the Big Lie. The anti-government, gold standard and English only rhetoric in Loughner's goodbye slideshow was somewhat incoherent but still was almost pure right-wing talking points.
I heard someone on an NPR program say that the Tucson shooter (Congresswoman Giffords story) was a "leftie." I am outraged that some are trying to cover their rear ends at this time of tragedy rather than engage in honest introspection and an honest search for an answer as to how to avoid this tragedy from happening to someone else. To that point, I say this: the vitriole, and violent rhetoric filled with images of gunplay, and innuendo about using violent force to "take our country back" is NOT coming from both sides. We in Arizona know which side the hate speech and misinformation is coming from ... the conservatives. I challenge anyone to give me an example as big and broad as the one of a Vice Presidential candidate using a gunsight to target political opponents coming from the liberal progressive side of the political spectrum. Let's get real. The Republicans are the ones who use violent rhetoric against their opponents. Anyone who says differently is probably guilty of using the same hate speech, or is a paid mouthpiece of that guilty one.
There have always been sensible restraints regarding weapons possession and use. It seems that passing more laws in the face of evidence to their ineffectiveness requires that we look for other approaches to dealing with the natural problems inherent in our increasingly crowded and imbalanced social systems.
Humans have the evolutional advantage of memetics in that we can implement institutionalized and societal education across generations. We seem to be a bit slow on the uptake; we keep getting suckered into listening to the loudest. Those who know the least seem to know it the loudest.
The right wing implemented a plan generations ago: take over school boards and shape the minds of the next generations. Don't teach people how to think; tell them what to think.
Douglas Adams said, "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
Yes, history has shown that heated rhetoric from leaders can lead people to commit violence. Also if it had no affect why did Palin remove the map?
Not having sensible gun laws aren't really helping the victims much, worrying about how it effects a political party first seems pretty cynical at best. You can't say laws are pointless because some people will ignore them and/or figure out how to get around them. I mean, realistically, I'm not against people owning guns, but if an individual can't pass a mental evaluation, well I'm against that person owning any weapon. There are a lot of holes in the system, and a right to bare arms doesn't mean I have a right to juggle grenades in town square for kicks.
N
It is an interesting point about people turning to violence when they perceive that their government has lost its legitimacy. Over the weekend, I saw the results of a poll showing a 18% approval rating of the House of Representatives. Not that I condone violence...I do not. But, maybe this should also be a wake up call for Congress too?
I want to bring up two things:
1. This guy should be brought up on terrorism charges. The FBI framed the guy recently by supplying him with a fake bomb. One man in Oregon, just finished serving six years for setting fire to two SUV's. There are other examples of using terrorism charges where it seems questionable to use these charges. But, it is my understanding that the gunman will only be charged with murder for carrying out an act of terrorism.
2. America has a long history (even when we were subjects of the British Empire) of being a violent people. I think we should not try to blame each other for this crazy person's act of terrorism. We need to start a conversation for ending violence in this country. We need to reach out to and include each other. We are all in this together. Impossible? probably, but definitely worth standing up for!
The gun law thing is a real loser for Democrats. The Nation wrote that gun laws were a "Democrat Killer." Republicans have been very successful in using this issue because they don't care if I have an Armalite M15 with 30 round magazines. They have Blackwater, Triple Canopy, CCA, the National Guard, and the US Military, AND Bush signed the repeal of Posse Comitas in 2006. They'd only be concerned if I showed up with the same forces.
Even if the 1994 ban on magazines was still in effect, there were already plenty of 16 round magazines still available for Beretta 92 and like pistols. There were plenty of 30 round magazines available for Kalashnikov rifles.
My friend, an American who lived with her husband in Mexico for 15 years, noted while personal ownership of firearms was illegal, abiding with the law was insane.
Weapons are things. We have a problem with behaviours, and it seems that we aren't quite ready to do that sort of heavy lifting.
Sick Yes, Right Responsible Still Yes! - Look first off, I think we can all agree that this guy is a loon. But that in no way means that the Right isn't responsible. If hate was a virus (which it is) the people that are most venerable to falling ill to that virus are those with weak immune systems. So while the moajority of Fox News viewers, and Tea Party people would NEVER pick up a gun and do what this guy did, there are loons who WILL. Just like the elderly person who can't fight off the flue, the mentally weak can't fight off the RIGHT WING HATE that is coming from the people with the mics.
I heard VP Biden is in Afghanistan right now, and I suddenly wondered what country we fly over to get there. Is can't be Iran, so is it Pakistan? Or Turkey-Azerbaijan-Armenia-Turkmenistan?
If a "Detroit Muslim" or any other American born Muslim did the crosshair thing, then the FBI would entrap them, supply them with fake bombs and then arrest them.
I have to say this in all seriousness. The left has been predicting this type of result from the ratcheting up of violent language from right wing political leadership. But taunting the right with "I told you so" isn't going to resolve anything. I know its pretty tempting to just jump all over the leadership on the right, but what is the end game of that? Limiting free speech even more? Instead of talking about the gun laws and revisiting that issue, since that fight is too hard and daunting, and lets face it not as fun, the left will attack the right and just add more fuel to their fire.
In the long run will this help Palin... you betcha!
N
Michael Moore asked on Twitter, "If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking."
Our homegrown domestic terrorist Jared Loughner arrested and charged for the brutal attacks in Arizona should not go down in history as an assassin. To glorify him as an assassin defiles the memory of those others who have died.
Attempting to kill Jews and the others around them; spitting on Black Congressmen and calling them the "N" word; Calling a known Homosexual Congressman the "F" word; kicking in and breaking down & entering congressional representative's offices all are the result of what?