American fascism: it ain't over yet

Thom plus logo Many people think we've hit peak fascism, but Wednesday was only a bump in the road. Trump, his neofascist followers, and over half the congressional Republican caucus were just pushing the limits to see what they could get away with.

And in the US Capitol, and state capitols around the country that were similarly attacked, Trump's fascist followers learned that the personal price they'd pay for sedition and treason is less than the penalty for drunk driving.

The neofascist base has been built, person by person, by talk radio, Facebook and national media chasing eyeballs with Trump's fascist spectacle. The coin of the realm among members of that base are brutality and violence.

Fascism is not something new to America. This country has run a racially-based pseudo-fascist regime for 400 years, particularly in the South; it just hasn't been widely recognized by the white-owned, white-dominated media and educational systems in this country.

Raw, unrestrained capitalism without any semblance of a social safety net is what characterized the economic brutality endured by poor and working class people throughout much of American history. You could call it "fascism light," as the enforcement and impact of it was not as systematic as a full-blown fascist system and largely left middle class white people unscathed.

However, when the political power of the very wealthy and politically active oligarchs among the capitalist class becomes unrestrained, like in 2010 when the Supreme Court in Citizens United declared that billionaires and corporations could funnel unlimited amounts of money to politicians and political parties, the next phase is usually full-blown fascism.

As German industrialist oligarch Fritz Tyssen pointed out in his book I Paid Hitler, fascism seizes power when the very rich in a society throw their support behind an otherwise out-of-power populist-fascist wannabe political figure. Egged on by billionaire donors, American fascists like Senators Hawley and Cruz have enthusiastically promoted the destruction of the American voting system at the core of our republic.

But, again, brutality is the key to fascism. Until recently, it has been mostly economic brutality in America, but now Trump and his followers have added physical brutality. When you see physical brutality emerging, you can pretty much bet that you're entering a full-blown fascist era.

For example, during the fascist invasion of the Capitol building, about 400 members of Congress and their staffs were confined to one committee room, a situation that made social distancing impossible. Nonetheless, according to several members present and reported by The New York Times, dozens of Republicans refused to wear masks, provoking pleas and literal cries from some of the older members. The maskless Republicans ignored them, and in some cases even laughed at them.

According to several reports, these maskless Republicans reveled in their brutality and the fear they were inspiring in other members, particularly the older Democrats.

In the era of 1935-1980, America developed strong protections for workers and the middle class (particularly the white middle class), but there was substantial pushback, too.

Fred Koch and friends funded and built the John Birch Society mostly in reaction to the 1954 Brown v Board Supreme Court decision requiring school integration, and their campaign to keep public schools segregated morphed, over the following two decades, into a movement to end virtually all forms of protective government regulation that would diminish corporate profits.

The Reagan Revolution put this movement into the mainstream of American politics, killing rules that allowed for unions, and freeing polluters and poisoners to make more money while wreaking their havoc on Americans. Union membership went from a third of Americans at the start of Reagan's term to a mere 6 percent of the private workforce today, a form of economic and environmental brutality that's hit minority communities particularly hard but also gutted the middle class overall.

Now, as I point out in The Hidden History of American Oligarchy, we're entering the full-blown fascist phase of this process. Economic, racial and environmental brutality are now paired with mob violence to keep environmentalists' mouths shut and working people, particularly those who are members of minority groups, terrified.

And while people of color have always been the first targets, white people who dare stand up to Trump are now coming into "their turn in the barrel."

When Andrew Johnson pardoned the entire Confederate army after the Civil War, he set up over 100 years of Jim Crow and perpetual race-based fascist violence against black people.

If Republicans in Washington DC and state capitals across the country continue to minimize this new GOP fascist movement, and federal and state governments continue to let its perpetrators and promoters off the hook, the American experiment as we've known it is close to a very dangerous end.


Originally posted at


deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 20 weeks ago

"Donald Trump won't survive this American carnage of his own making.
At the very least, Trump's post-presidency is looking less like a shadow presidency and more like permanent exile." - Heather Digby Parton

chucklynd's picture
chucklynd 2 years 20 weeks ago

As I understand it, the Nuremberg trials targeted the Nazi leaders. After WWII the German educational system required that all students learn what actually happened. That seems like a possible approach for us, Post Trump.

Chuck Lynd, educator and former teacher of history and government.

alis volat's picture
alis volat 2 years 20 weeks ago

Although I feel like Thom is my brother from another mother, I have to admit I am not crazy about fascism discussions. Here is a description from

Although fascism is a notoriously difficult ideology to define, many 20th-century fascist movements shared several characteristics. First, these movements sourced their political strength from populations experiencing economic woes, real or imagined. Fascists tended to capitalize on these economic anxieties by shifting the blame away from government or market forces. Jews, immigrants, leftists, and other groups became useful scapegoats. Redirecting popular anger toward these people would, in theory, rid a country of its ailments.

To unify a country, fascist movements propagated extreme nationalism that often went hand in hand with militarism and racial purity.

OK, I think I can tick all those boxes and see more of what he is referring to.

America is a project as well as an experiment. Has it totally gone off the rails because of a sociopathic president and his fascist cult? Did they do the last bit of damage needed? I'd like to think we will get back on-track in time. President Elect Biden's attitude of we-can-do-this is good for "starters". I am glad he picked the already vetted Garland for AG. A big slice of justice would be delicious for "dessert". Life is a banquet, after all.

It's going to be wonderful to watch VP-Elect Harris become one of the most interesting vice presidents that have ever served (thank you Georgia!). It's a good thing she runs. She might be "running" back and forth to the newly repaired and protected Capitol a LOT!

MysticJanet's picture
MysticJanet 2 years 20 weeks ago


Many thanks for the perspective and history; It is Grave indeed!

Blessings, MJ

djgilbert 2 years 20 weeks ago

The risk is real and here now, as you note.

Calling this out clearly for what it is must happen.

Mega countries create a risk of devaluating democracy because one cannot logically understand how a single vote makes a difference or a single voice is heard. We have to move away from the 75 years of centralization around the Federal government. When the government is more local, meaningful participation and voting should be more sensible.

Jefferson is quoted as saying "The government closest to the people serves the people best."

How do we get there from this current mess? Forget about constitutional amendments to solve the problem. The country has outgrown the amendment process. Instead, responsible models of federalism with delegation to regions, not states, need to be undertaken. Federally directed interstate compacts may be an option that can work.

Plenty of problems could be solved with regional groups working locally. Sustaining the high turnout of 2020 will require not just waiting for the next national election.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 20 weeks ago

@ alis volat #3:

"Benito Mussolini coined the term “fascism” in 1919 to describe his political movement. He adopted the ancient Roman fasces as his symbol. This was a bundle of rods tied around an ax, which represented the power of Rome."

The idea was that one stick could be easily broken, but a bundle of sticks could withstand the strike of an ax.

Although the word fascism has evolved over the decades to mean different things to different people, I think Thom's lectures (correct me if I'm wrong) have mostly interpreted it through Mussolini's original viewpoint: the interests of the state and private industry become one and the same -- a match made in hell. In other words, the power of government becomes the power of big business, and the titans of industry become the politicians. Modern America's corrupt system, with a public/private "revolving door" and with billionaires of Wall Street buying politicians, seems pretty close to that particular concept.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 20 weeks ago

chucklynd #2:

How many heroic national myths would have been taught to their children had Hitler won the war? It's hard not to think of that when the right-wing in our country perpetually rails against the so-called "liberal" public education system, forever wanting to privatize it. What American fables and fantasies are they weaving into the curriculum of the Christian brand of madrasas right now? If radical Republicanism ultimately succeeds in the battle for the minds of our youth, how many of the hard truths of our age would be forever lost to revisionist history?

norgotoad's picture
norgotoad 2 years 20 weeks ago

Last I heard, when you commit a crime, you're a criminal. The Trumpies who attacked, vandalized, committed insurrection, possibly espionage due to being allowed to break into offices without any security, and commit acts of sedition are criminals. I worked in max security prisons for over a decade, and guess what? Nobody in prison is guilty. Of couse their CII report states they were involved in murders, rape, robbery, dismemberment, ya know. Now they will tell it they were all set up. Point is: criminals never show remorse, and if they get away with it, WILL do more crime. Way it goes. If you are white and right wing, there is no cost/ no penalty. How many of those Trump Thugs will ever see the inside of a cell? How many will even get arrested? Even if arrested, they are NOT going to get 10 years. Maybe 10 minutes with donuts and coffee maximum. That's it. All the Capitol Police should be placed on unpaid furlough pending thorough exhaustive investigations into links to right wing groups HUAC style. Names, connections, associations. 3 to 6 months of investigations, and they might keep their jobs. Same for those higher ups who resigned. Retirement account payouts should be suspended pending in-depth documented investigations. And that's getting off light. Of course none of this will happen. Just going to arrest the usual suspects (i.e., black, brown, BLM, Antifa, etc), and that will be that. Living down to expectations. Disgraceful. May these thugs and clowns live in infamy.

alis volat's picture
alis volat 2 years 20 weeks ago


I always appreciate intelligent information, so thanks and keep it coming. Please take this good natured advice and look-up my user name on "the" Google. Wouldn't it be funny if I was a Latin teacher? There must be a few of those left in the world.

On a somber note, Rahm Emanuel was in tears on Nightline. There was a fascist in the Capitol mob with a shirt slogan Rahm never thought he would see in that building. It had CAMP AUSCHWITZ printed on it. Seems there are two versions of these themed garments. He mentioned the one that has 6MWE (6 Million Wasn't Enough) on it. The other version has the phrase "Work Brings Freedom", and it was seen on another of the fascists. He was caught on camera inside and out of the Capitol. I don't think his lawyer will let him wear it to court.

Old Dave 2 years 20 weeks ago

It might be instructive to remember James Madison's originalist description of people engaged in fascism, only he called them factions and defined them as:

"a number of citizens, whether amounting to a minority or majority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community."

Whether is the collusion of corporate and state leaders to seize wealth and power from our citizens (fascism), or our power companies or any of the other businesses of extraction that force our citizens to pay for their messes with our tax dollars and our health, they are all forms of factions and they do things adverse to our citizens rights and our communities interests. At the Constitutional Convention in 1788, Alexander Hamilton observed

“We are attempting, by this Constitution, to abolish factions, and to unite all parties for the general welfare.”

When it comes to the purpose of our government, no one has done a better job of describing it, and if you accept that it should abolish factions (essentially protect us from those threats to our citizens rights and communities interests) and unite all parties for the general welfare, you can see that it is failing us miserably. In addition, it will continue to fail us, and as long as the factions control the three branches of our government, things are not going to get better. Fascism is a subset of faction-type behavior, just like the Trump crime family , Wall Street flimflammers and the evil oligarchs of carbon, war, drugs, health insurance, etc are all factions. We need to frame this struggle for control of our government as our citizens vs. the factions and take away the factions ability to buy our elected and appointed public sector officials.

rostasi 2 years 20 weeks ago

If you're a black peaceful protester, you're a rioter.
If you're a white angry protester, you're just a "freedom lover."

rostasi 2 years 20 weeks ago

Our era of the "got away with it" mentality needs to end. GAWI was raised to new levels during the 80s "me" generation of “Gordon Gekko"-like avarice that emboldened people who were either already rich or well-off, but the even more dangerously different aspect of today's version is that it has been willfully instilled in low or middle-class people by a fascist leader and his governmental and media cult followers: the GAWI trickle-down.

You have "freedom lovers" breaking down doors that clearly represents capital vs. Capitol - not to mention cops in the street who beat the rap by beating the rappers.

The way to begin erasing this mental aberration is to replace the people in prison who have minor drug charges with the people who pride themselves in being GAWIs - people who go to various lengths evading the consequences of criminal actions. Maybe after we get the ball rolling with that, we can then learn to temper their moral misdeeds as well.

Legend 2 years 20 weeks ago

Head of the Proud Boys visited the white House a few weeks ago. Initial contact? This thing has Jared written all over it. Jr. and Eric were making threats prior. They were after Pence and others.

As they make arrests and they will make a lot. FBI can use many methods to track you down. They will get jail time and large legal fee's. Plus convicted felons cannot possess guns. At least some will live to regret their actions. Brainwashed by right wing media. What will be more interesting is to see where the arrests go within our Government (this article is 7 years old but shows how long they have waited for this). This was well organized and most likely heavily financed.

Here is one that regrets it.

Another that will.

2 more.

I wonder how she will feel if the next target is the Supreme Court?

Steve Bannon from 2 months ago.

So much of this is based on Trumps lies that get told enough that people believe them. Then they are outraged at what they think is going on. Then they are outraged that they are called lies. It is happening at all levels of our society. Politicians repeat them, media repeats them. His Lawyers repeat them. Evangelicals repeat them. If you listen to Trumps 1 hour phone call to the GA Secretary of State you hear lie after lie. This is classic brainwashing.

Read everyday. The right wing media (which is 90% of the mainstream media) is changing the whole story of what happened. Yeah sure it was Anatifa dressed up like Proud Boys. Antifa is smart enough to wear masks.

254 more hours more of scorched earth. You can update it by clicking on it.

Legend 2 years 20 weeks ago

Not to change the subject, but I got more info on the Covid Vaccine distribution. Colorado has been mostly doing the front line workers. Which I am fine with. Colorado is receiving 70000 doses per week. It is now starting on people living in close quarters such as Assisted Living and Prison facilities. Then starts 1B which is people over 70. There are 570000 people over 70 in Colorado. So if you have perfect distribution it will take 8+ weeks to do the 70+ crowd. Colorado is 5900000 population so this is going to take awhile.

norgotoad's picture
norgotoad 2 years 20 weeks ago

Well said!! Second that. Funny thing is that the police/ criminal justice system and the military both failed to "protect" the citizens of this country in a very spectacular fashion. The military on 9/11; the police/ criminal justice system on Wednesday. So why does this country invest so much money in these failed organizations who are either simply incompetent, corrupt, or both? Just sayin'

jonathan w tikker's picture
jonathan w tikker 2 years 20 weeks ago

A sound mind would think Trump is so absurd in his behavior that he could only lose; however, humans do, and have acquiesced, and will again acquiesce to the force and violence of those who are authoritarians, if we do not reserve within ourselves our freedom to oppose them for overreaching -equality- as the limit and definition of our freedoms. We must enforce the law of equality if the law leans towards fascism. We must not become animals of husbandry owned by those willing to force or coerce others into submission, or a sound mind will not rule over us in our democracy as Plato pointed out in his republic.

Xfilerose 2 years 20 weeks ago

Most of what you read on this appears to see these events like a common cold that will heal and be gone in a few days, but it’s more like a political pandemic. Trump has spent the past 4 years building out his mafia style foundation network of national and international political allies, criminals, police and military officials, and every day citizens backed by a funding network that cannot be crippled by simply arresting a few of his lemmings and removing him from office. This needs to be answered by seizing all of his assets and squashing the network like a bug or we will feel the sting of his terrorism for years to come. As you see the defection of republicans, it’s not a come to Jesus moment for them, they are simply slipping quietly into the shadows until they regroup to launch other waves in the future and should go down with number one. One thing has been tested and proven over the past 4 years, there is no lack or limit of commitment to the cause.

Legend 2 years 20 weeks ago

Mitch has responded to calls for impeachment by saying that he will not hold a Senate session until after the inauguration. Mitch hid in some sort of emergency capsule during this insurrection. If they had found him he was on their list to hang. Pence refuses to do Amendment 25. They were chanting to hang him. These people are incredibly afraid of Trump. I say arrest Trump on the 20th at 12:01 PM for inciting a riot. Along with others.

norgotoad's picture
norgotoad 2 years 20 weeks ago

One can dream.. But based upon history and the null hypothesis, or maybe systemic intertia, Trump will face no consequences. Half of America still believe in the propaganda machine. Trump will do just fine. So far, all I observe is a lot of yappin and nothing hap'nin. Heck the Capitol hasn't been secured-- not even close. The security will all have to be furloughed without pay (hey, if they worked in a correctional setting they would have already been fired... no questions no excuses as I have seen plenty of times for any security breach). The National Guard and secret service may be options. But the Capitol Police have been compromised, and require extensive and exhaustive background checks focusing on RIGHT WING associations and participations. This alone will take several months. Too bad, that's the cost of failure and corruption. The building will require extensive searches for bombs, listening devices, and other security exploits. Every room and nook. All the perpetrators who gained access will have to be arrested and tried for treason and sedition. Of course, since most were let go without any discouraging word, this will take several years. Since the crime scene was not secured, any physical evidence outside of video will be challenged. Even the video will be challenged. At the end of the day maybe 2 or 3 perps may see the inside of a cell for 10 minutes or as long as it takes for the MyPillow guy to post bail. That's the cost of not securing and containing a crime scene and immediately arresting criminals. Evidence has a very short shelf life. Every document possibly viewed and/or touched by unauthorized persons will have to be cataloged and assessed for any security breaches especially breaches of classified docs (oh..add espionage charges to the sedtion charges). Of course murder and accessory to murder, assault and murder of peace officers, etc. etc. Now all of that is what a semi-competent borderline functional criminal justice system would do. Tall order, very expensive, and likely to make the Capitol barely usable for months, if not, years. The cost of electing a sociopath as President. The good news is that none of this will happen. Fascism will have a huge party. The cost, of course, will be democracy and the rule of law. Equality is already dead. Good deal for the 1%. Big cost savings, and all that democracy rule of law stuff just gets in the way. We the people, of course will foot the bill for all of this. Biz as usual.

stopgap's picture
stopgap 2 years 20 weeks ago

One possible ray of sunshine as a result of Trump’s lynch mob storming the Capitol Building, is that now Trump may well have destroyed his most valuable asset. Apparently, the “TRUMP” name has now become radioactive and future efforts to license his name for hotels, golf courses, and other enterprises will be considered toxic and will also certainly negatively affect any of his current holdings for generations to come.

In other words, Trump it’s over!! Instead of building an empire. The “TRUMP” name will be treated like a deadly virus that will follow you wherever you go, and you will be considered untouchable by investors from now on.

Congratulations Trump. At least you still have Donny Jr.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 20 weeks ago


Trump considering Giuliani and Dershowitz for impeachment defense team

Looks like the “TRUMP” name will be treated like a deadly virus by respectable law firms too.

Scraping the bottom for bottom feeders.

Legend 2 years 20 weeks ago

Trump gave us Congress in 2018. He gave us the Senate in 2020. He gave us the Executive office in 2020. He has done as he said he would and Made America Great Again.

This is going to go a lot deeper. Under oath the Secretary of Defense needs to expalin no National Guard. Virtally all in the Trump Administration and family need to testify under oath.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 20 weeks ago

Trump's pardon palooza better kick into high gear or else he'll run out of time to clean up all the MAGAts feeding off the carcass of his White House racketeering enterprise. Now he's got hundreds of insurrectionists to add to the slimy pile. Gotta keep his future customers happy.

RepubliCult's picture
RepubliCult 2 years 20 weeks ago

The GOP sponsors domestic terrorism, and provides sanctuary to domestic terrorists. Trump, and his millions of republican supporters and officials prove this.

Jail these perpetrators and actors. There’s plenty of room in Guantanamo. They’ll be comfortable next to ISIS, al-Qaeda, and Taliban terrorists.

Chop the remainder in pieces, and blow torch it into oblivion. They deserve all this.

You are with democracy, or with the terrorists.

Xfilerose 2 years 20 weeks ago

The republicans used Bin Laden for years until Obama brought him to justice, the funny part is that justice brought Bin Laden to the people in a bottle – a myth. Republicans were furious because they couldn’t use his carcass any more, much like when Jesse Jackson delivered the hostages – ouch, even his seed paid for that one. If in fact the justice system does not make a strong show of intolerance for these events, one can only deduce that a light sentence was agreed and Trump was simply acting at the behest of a greater plan. The null hypothesis must hold that if this government is for the people, then no leader will ever be held accountable, only the people. Heck, even Napoleon was exiled to Elba, Idi Amin had similar fate and they searched for Hitler for years in South America because Israel was certain he was still alive. In this light, our government has focused efforts to charge the participants in this insurrection, all except Trump, who went to Camp David for a vacation and his protection and as you say, won’t be charged. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy, Scalise and many other republicans are complicit and it’s impossible to be sure how deep that rabbit hole goes, they will likely go the way of Oliver North. Trump being banned from twitter and having a radioactive name is a slap in our face. That status attracts people in today’s world, incentivizes Trump to further betray us to those who welcome him with open arms and want to toast him for his blow to democracy.

alis volat's picture
alis volat 2 years 19 weeks ago

I hate to add other "turds" to the proverbial punch bowl, but the only thing Trump and his criminal family care about is money. Jared's already funneled the save-the-election fund into AMMC. It's a good bet it is off-shore already. And, 617 million dollars will set them all up for life. Maybe that's why they were dancing and smiling backstage before they went out there and fomented the insurrection.

If anyone is going to prosecute, I hope they do it soon, at least before they find a place that doesn't extradite. Oops, many of those places are on Trump's shit-hole list. There are friendlies in Saudi Arabia, but since the Trumps think they are royal, there might not be room for them there.

This evil insurrection is just getting going. It is coming to a capitol near you. They were already in Salem on Dec. 21st. This is a quote from TMZ about what happened there: "Republican State Representative Mike Nearman was caught on surveillance video -- which was just released -- opening a side door to the Oregon State Capitol ... and then letting a sea of Trumpers in by allowing the door to slowly close behind, and never looking back."

Legend 2 years 19 weeks ago

This is why Moscow Mitch will not impeach.

We have been so busy with the capitol being ransacked that we have almost forgotten Trumps hour long phone call recording to the GA Secretary of State (which is an impeachable offense). There were 2 others.

My neighbor that has had the Trump sign aimed at my driveway has even taken it down. Trump is losing all support.

Trump Speak.

Xfilerose 2 years 19 weeks ago

At least we can be thankful that our masks cloak the stench of republican supporters as we perform our necessary daily activities, but it looks like time to lock them up.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 19 weeks ago

Moscow Mitch has been pumping out the lie, picked up by nearly every news outlet, that the Senate cannot return early from recess unless every senator agrees. Even if only one Senator objects then they can't reconvene for the impeachment trial before January 19th.

On the Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell on Friday, 1-8-2021, Laurence Tribe said, "That is ludicrous. If he wanted to, he could do it. You don't have to have unanimous consent." He also said, "If the Senate were halfway responsible, it could hold a trial in a very short time."

Professor Laurence Tribe is a constitutional expert, wrote a recent book about impeachment, and won 35 cases before the Supreme Court. Loser Mitch McConnell is a lying fckng piece of worthless shit with Trump the Traitor's tiny dick still stuck firmly up his ass. So who ya gonna believe?

rostasi 2 years 19 weeks ago

Clyburn is saying that the House could impeach,
then let Biden do his job for a hundred days
and then take it to the Senate.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 19 weeks ago

IMO, that's a terrible idea! But it's the typical ineffective strategy of weak-kneed Democratic leadership that doesn't know how to play hardball. Delay, delay, delay until it becomes a moot point and hope people don't notice. (Hint: They will!)

The Democrats will own the Senate shortly after the inauguration whenever Georgia finalizes the ratification of Ossoff and Warnock. Meanwhile, they need to show worried citizens exactly which representatives of the people are totally failing in their duty to protect America from a madman and a terrorist.

Besides, as Laurence Tribe pointed out, a Senate trial can be completed very quickly in a matter of just a few days and would hardly interfere with Biden's 100-day agenda, even if it was held right after January 20.

In the end, they'll probably never get two-thirds of the Senate to convict anyway regardless of who's in charge. Nevertheless, they should just do their goddamn jobs regardless of political considerations. If a president commits an impeachable offense -- and Trump absolutely did "bigly" -- then impeach the sonofabitch, get it over to the Senate, and let the chips fall where they may.

Already, before the "game" has even begun, mealymouthed Dems are diluting their power and defeating themselves. But even worse, they're sending a horrible message to the future.

Legend 2 years 19 weeks ago

I would rather see him arrested on January 20th at 12:01 PM and go through the regular court system.

Companies are cutting donations to Republican losers.

Right wing media.

rostasi 2 years 19 weeks ago

He very well might be (tho maybe not right at 12:01) as well.

rostasi 2 years 19 weeks ago

Yeah, that sounds all great and wonderful if we were dealing with "normal" Republicans, but we're dealing with people like the Turtle and Ted Coup who will use any excuse to drag stuff out in order to make it look like the Dems aren't doing their job of helping the people in times of extreme need. "Look at the Dems! They're more interested in revenge than the American people, blah, blah..."

I completely understand the sentiment of "If you can confirm a Supreme nom in eight days, then you can certainly impeach in 10", but unfortunately, Dems have to strategize their way around compulsively belligerent Repubs. If that means immediate, almost certain, impeachment in the House now and using those in-between "Sword of Damocles" days to also show that they are an actual working-people party, then it may actually be a huge advantage. (Yes, I understand that impeachment would be considered something that's done for the people, but there's nothing like legislation that directly affects them).

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 19 weeks ago

Haha, that too. Maybe, 12:02. The bastard is NOT above the law!

Rostasi lays out a well-reasoned argument, and it's probably correct. But I still believe wholeheartedly (or at least hope) that Congress can do both --impeach as well as focus on the people's other business. It shouldn't be a question of either-or. They can walk and chew gum at the same time.

As soon as they take over the Senate, Schumer can set the rules and make short work of the impeachment trial, just like McConnell did last year. They don't need to call endless witnesses, since Trump the Seditionist incited violent insurrection in front of the whole world to witness. Win or lose, get everything and everybody on the Congressional Record, and then get on with passing critical legislation, approving cabinet nominees and federal judges, etc. We're likely only talking days, not some long-drawn-out process.

Republicans will always criticize and lie no matter what or when. If the House and Senate Democratic leadership hasn't learned that obvious lesson by now, then it has learned nothing. They shouldn't worry about what the Dark Side might say or how they might vote. Screw 'em; ReTrumplicans lost their moral high ground (if indeed they ever had it) a long, long time ago, and it will be a cold day in hell before they earn it back, if ever.

The Dems should worry more about doing what's right for posterity and, for once, put politics and paranoia aside. Trump deserves to be impeached (Oh, does he!), and he deserves to be put on trial in both the Senate and through the regular court system -- the sooner the better.

Recent polling shows that the majority of people want him impeached if he doesn't quit or isn't removed immediately by invoking the 25th Amendment (which ain't gonna happen), so impeachment and a Senate trial happen to be good politics too, especially at this key moment in history when it's fresh on everybody's minds. It might not be viable after a 100-day delay, after squandering the initiative.

They should also get rid of the filibuster, or at least try. Joe Manchin, of course, is the spoiler, so that probably won't work.

rostasi 2 years 19 weeks ago

"...But I still believe wholeheartedly (or at least hope) that Congress can do both --impeach as well as focus on the people's other business. It shouldn't be a question of either-or..."

Yes, but the one thing that Repubs are good at is advancing their perception of things - even (or especially) ones that are disingenuous. What people "deserve" and the "popularity" of it have rarely determined correct political action - especially in this country. More than likely, we will have a House impeachment, but I really doubt that the Senate will follow suit - meaning that even though Dems will have control starting on Jan. 20 (or as late as the 22nd based on what Raffensperger does) and they go on their merry way attending to the people's business right away along with impeachment, the Repubs (and the media) will always emphasize the Impeachment process using as many different adjectives as you can imagine - all the while governmental business having to do with practically anything else of importance (even the pandemic) will be media sidelined as practically an afterthought.

Since any possible attempt at Senate impeachment is aimed solely at making sure that Trump gets none of the governmental perks and makes it impossible for him to ever run for office again, the idea of slapping a highly unlikely (so, a possibly wasted effort) Senate impeach at the very beginning of your term plays perfectly into the hands of the people that you despise. Plus, all it will do is give Dems and Progressives the warm fuzzy feeling of immediate gratification (if there's a win) when all you will really immediately achieve is a blocking of the, normally, in-the-future advantages of serving in the government.

Unfortunately, for the majority of Americans, Republican craftiness over the past 40+ years has brought us to this point where the Dems are finally realizing that this is not just a bad dream but a self-awakened reality - one that won't be simply willed away by "correct" political reasoning alone.

deepspace's picture
deepspace 2 years 19 weeks ago

Well, the Dems will just have to work that much harder at changing perceptions and managing expectations then. After all, politics is a war for minds. If they can't learn to fight effectively on all fronts at the same time, which is what Republicans do, then they stand a good chance of losing the Senate in 2022, possibly the House, and the presidency in 2024. The public will perceive them as weak and feckless -- "Loser-crats!" And the public would be right.

What sense does it make to impeach Trump in the House as an urgent imperative (which it is) and then just sit on it for three or four months, especially when everyone is hot to go right now, even a lot of Republicans? What does that say to future generations and future politicians about how to manage priorities? Besides, delaying a trial plays into the hands of the coldly calculating Republicans in the Senate (the usual suspects) who desperately do not want to go on the record with their votes.

If a truncated timeframe for impeachment is such a huge worry, then hell, Pelosi may as well forget about it altogether and spend the House's precious days in session to work on pandemic relief exclusively. But then, why not solve the time dilemma by simply scheduling longer workdays and workweeks to pass both bills as quickly as possible, since both issues are each vitally important in their own lanes? Ditto for the Senate. How many ordinary workaday Americans have to suffer through long hours at tough jobs juggling chainsaws to make ends meet?!

Attempting some long and complicated triple bank shot over short-term political considerations won't escape the scrutiny of anyone paying attention, which is just about everyone at this point in time. Why drag it out? It's the keyword KISS: keep it simple stupid. Trump is a dangerous, out-of-control tyrant -- impeach him in the House; put him on trial in the Senate; move on.

Legend 2 years 19 weeks ago

The ones that are not getting enough blame are the Republican Enablers. Which is all of them except for Romny. My ultra right wing Repblican Congressman, Ken Buck, (plus 6 others) has come out strongly against impeachment. But makes no mention of his crimes or how to control him for the next 207 hours. Roy Blount (R-MO) said that "He touched the hot stove and will not do it again" So when more people die because of him what are you going to do Roy Blount? Mitch will not impeach. These are examples of treasonous enablers. Not to mention Canadian Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley who should also be impeached.

YOHAN CHU's picture
YOHAN CHU 2 years 19 weeks ago

Now we know what has happened behind close doors:

Two days before Congress was set to formalize President-elect Joe Biden’s victory, Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund was growing increasingly worried about the size of the pro-Trump crowds expected to stream into Washington in protest.

To be on the safe side, Sund asked House and Senate security officials for permission to request that the D.C. National Guard be placed on standby in case he needed quick backup.

But, Sund said Sunday, they turned him down.

The New York Police Department’s intelligence unit sent a packet of information to police agencies nationwide, according to law enforcement officials. A separate report was sent directly to Capitol Police.

Capitol Police had refused assistance from the National Guard three days ahead of the protest and from the FBI as rioters reached the Capitol last week, The Associated Press reported in the aftermath.

The day prior to the riots, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser (D) told Justice Department and Pentagon officials that D.C. police would not request assistance from federal authorities.

This is the real image of this country: keep downplaying the real threat.

In terms of politics, both parties are to blame. Number one, republican lawmakers (anti-government party) joined this ambush of capitol and trying to destroy the democracy (since it isn't/wasn't written in the U.S. Constitution) with white supremacists. Number two, democrat lawmakers have been exercising democracy but failed to protect it.

If Biden tries to grow or expand the econonmy (after he sworns in), he has to give up the climate change issue since these two issues counteracts each other. If he tries to fix the racism, he has to fix the education system as a whole (especially on U.S. History). How? make sure that K-12 education requires to complete the course of native americans and other Americans from Canada in North America to Chile in South America, because they are all Americans.

And you know what has been happening? as republicans made their mess (mark) before they left/leave office, democrats had to clean them up (which it takes a lot of time and time cannot be replaced). This has been republican's political strategy to call democrats "radical left" or blaming them about the deficit (debts) after cutting taxes for millionaires and billionaires. And recently, they (republicans) showed that they don't take any responsibility (just like Trump) for misleading the country. They love and follow the money and it is really hard to pass up. Go figure.

cuz's picture
cuz 2 years 19 weeks ago

All summer long the left complained that the national guard was out in DC quelling the riots and the righties were cheering that decision to deploy.

Now. the left is complaining there were not enough national guard members on duty and the righties are complaining that they were deployed in the first place.

I'm running with the defund the police crowd and just send in a few counselors in a time of a crisis.

Let popo have their donuts and coffee in peace.

Legend 2 years 19 weeks ago

There was not just National Guard Quelling riots. Take a look at a few picture of the BLM Demonstrations and compare to January 6th. Damage, minimal. Tresspassing, none. Politicians inciting riots, none. There was also unmarked goon squads.

The real cause of these riots are Trumps lies. lies that get repeated by Guliani and his law team in court and shot down 60 times. But the lies continued. Repeated on mainstream media and right wing fringe media. Repeated on Social Media. Repeated by Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley before and after the riots. Repeated by almost every right winger until the base believed it. I will give an ounce of credit to Mitch to saying they were lies before the riots. Now many lives are destroyed by these lies.

Legend 2 years 19 weeks ago

Senators and Congressmen that refused to wear masks during lock down should be banned from the Capitol Building. A NJ Congresswoman has now tested positive.

Could Washington DC police arrest Don Jr, Rudy Guliani and others that helped to incite the riot?

Congresswoman Lauren Boebert (R-CO) was texting location information about where Nancy Pelosi was. She is a Qanon follower.

Denise1955's picture
Denise1955 2 years 19 weeks ago

We haven't even seen Erik Prince yet. This ain't over yet. Sister DeVos was probably warned to "Get outta Dodge" before the real show starts.

vetinla's picture
vetinla 2 years 19 weeks ago

Legend @ 41 said;"The real cause of these riots are Trumps lies. lies that get repeated by Guliani and his law team in court and shot down 60 times. But the lies continued. Repeated on mainstream media and right wing fringe media. Repeated on Social Media. Repeated by Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley before and after the riots. Repeated by almost every right winger until the base believed it. "

Yep, exactly!! This SHOULD be in every Dem. response. Case closed....

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