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>>> A Juxtaposition ??
The ORIGINAL Tea Party Movement (circa 1773):
Protested a Multi-National Corporation (The British East India Company) from passing a corporate tax onto the American consumer while British East India received a corporate tax break..
RESULT >> Masses of Americans rallied by boycotting British East India and dumped Tons of tea into the ocean...
TODAY"S Tea Party Movement (circa 2010):
Protest Corporate Taxes and Less Government Oversight.
RESULT >> A Massive British Corporation (British Petroleum) dumps BILLIONS of Gallons of Crude into in the ocean..
Strange Coincedence??
rudolfher: Oh and you really think the corporations are going to give the "extra" money they save from NOT paying taxes or "safety regulations" to the WORKERS? For example, you take minimum wage away, and see how low wages drop. - I am not sure if this was meant to be refered to me, I will assume so. I have no insight to what companies may or may not do with the "extra" money you refer to. The real minimum wage is zero, as in unemployment, which is only increased as the minimum wage is increased. Read Henry Hazlitt "Economics in One Lesson", he discusses minimum wage in regards to this.
rudolfher: On the subject of the libertarian view on discrimination, according to the libertarian party platform(www.lp.org/platform), it clearly states "Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself." And yet it also states, "We call for...the abolishment of...federal programs and services [including education] not required under the U.S. Constitution."
So what government is LEFT where government is authorized to prevent discrimination?" Isn't the ultimate libertarian utopia a place where discrmination is free to exist and perpetuate ramapantly? - I am not sure I follow your argument in the first couple sentences. I would say that the Libertarian view would allow for all people to choose who they do or do not associate and trade with and the government has no place to regulate that function. I hate racism, sexism any -ism really, but freedom dictates that I have no right to regulate others views on the subject. Discrimination exists wether we want it to or not, it is more concealed and underground due to Civil Rights Laws. If people were racist enough to put "whites only", "blacks only", "Asians only" etc, outside their business I would know which businesses to avoid, and so would every other decent American.
rudolfher: You libertarians make it lucidly clear that you are against Democracy with the wolf and the sheep parable. But the US ISN'T and HAS NEVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY! We are a Constitutional Democratic Republic where "Rule of Law" ultimately prevails. - I never said that the US is a Democracy, I was comparing louiseharmann's quote in the original post when comparing rich/corporation tyranny vs. democracy. John Adams defined a constitutional republic as "a government of laws, and not of men. This was a direct confrontation of the idea of the tyranny of the majority. I agree with this.
rudolfher: That's where we have seen Federal Authority in the enforcement of the 14th Amendment and thusly the Civil Rights Act. ALL examples of where the TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY do not usurp the RIGHTS OF THE MAJORITY, have all been protected by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! - I am somewhat confused, do you mean rights of the minority, I assume? I agree that all people should be treated equally before the law, and that justice should be blind. I agree that for all public/government functions, there should not be any allowance for discrimination. I would also say that I personally disagree with anyone who would willingly not associate or trade with people based on race, sex, creed, etc., however, I don't think that the government has a function in regulating people's choices/preferences. I see private business as an extention of the owner, and if an owner would not otherwise associate with one group of people in his private home, I don't see how the government can force them to do otherwise in his private business. As a matter of a hypothetical question would it be okay for an owner of a Jewish Deli who had family members that were in the holocaust, not to serve known members of the skin heads? I think he should serve them, but I could completely understand why he wouldn't want to.
Show me where the "free market" has ever protected the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority? - Again, I am not sure I follow, but the minority never has to purchase any product that is available in the market, and thus they protect themselves by the purchasing choices they make. I am not sure if this answers your question?
And in your libertarian utopia, who gets to enforce the rights of the minority against the rule by the rich and the corporatocrisy? Who's empowered since government is ineffectualized by vitiation and cataclysmic de-funding? - I am not aware that there is rule by the rich nor am I aware of an existing corporatocrisy, but I think the court system is adequate for protecting people.
aw, come on, n.echevarria3, tell us how you r e a l l y feel..
You libertarians make it lucidly clear that you are against Democracy with the wolf and the sheep parable. But the US ISN'T and HAS NEVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY! We are a Constitutional Democratic Republic where "Rule of Law" ultimately prevails. That's where we have seen Federal Authority in the enforcement of the 14th Amendment and thusly the Civil Rights Act. ALL examples of where the TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY do not usurp the RIGHTS OF THE MAJORITY, have all been protected by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! Show me where the "free market" has ever protected the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority?
And in your libertarian utopia, who gets to enforce the rights of the minority against the rule by the rich and the corporatocrisy? Who's empowered since government is ineffectualized by vitiation and cataclysmic de-funding?
On the subject of the libertarian view on discrimination, according to the libertarian party platform(www.lp.org/platform), it clearly states "Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself." And yet it also states, "We call for...the abolishment of...federal programs and services [including education] not required under the U.S. Constitution."
So what government is LEFT where government is authorized to prevent discrimination?" Isn't the ultimate libertarian utopia a place where discrmination is free to exist and perpetuate ramapantly?
Oh and you really think the corporations are going to give the "extra" money they save from NOT paying taxes or "safety regulations" to the WORKERS? For example, you take minimum wage away, and see how low wages drop.
I am always amazed how the "progressives" seem to hate the Libertarians and flat out lie about what they stand for. On many social issues I think that we have common ground.
louisehartmann: Libertarians believe we the people have no right to collectively get together and create an institution called government to protect ourselves from predators. -This is hardly true, being a Libertarian myself, what I would assert is that Libertarians would allow for people to gather collectively and create what ever they want as long as that creation did not try to stretch it's governing policy over non-members or those who prefer not enlist. As a Libertarian, I have to admit that I freely engage in a wee bit of socialism (albeit voluntarly) I belong to a church.
Instead, Libertarians believe in kingdom rather than democracy - they want the kingdoms of rich people and their corporations to have final say in all things both public and private, and thus total control over our lives. And, amazingly enough, they call this "freedom." -First democracy is nothing more than the tyrrany of the majority, or better put two wolves and sheep debating what's for dinner. So assuming that your argument of the rich/corporations is true (which I would love to see some evidence to support such a claim, i.e support how "corporations have total control over our lives") I would simply be trading one form of tyrrany for another. So the argument is already a non starter since neither choice is a choice for freedom. I would prefer that I be allowed to decide what is best for me, and that everyone else decides what is best for them, and as long as I am not imposing myself on anyone and vice versa we should all be able to get along living under a system of maximum freedom. I would like an overarching document that details what rights all people have and what limits the government has (a constitution if you will). Moreover I would like the government to stay within the bounds of this document and not intrude into my life as long as I am not intruding upon other people's rights. This country after all is a constitutional republic, which is all I really want.
louisehartmann: I've often said that Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke dope and get laid (they're in favor of decriminalizing pot and prostitution) - I guess this is true but it is obviously being said in a facetious manner. I don't smoke pot, but I have no problem with people who choose to do so, nor do I solicit prostitutes but again have no problem with people who do. I personally believe that drugs and prostitution should be legalized. I have never voted for a Republican in a major election. Unfortunately I voted for Gore in 2000 and Blago for Illinois governor, so its not like I was ever a Repulbican who wanted to get high and pay for sex. I was actually a Democrat who yearned for freedom. You could also say that Libertarians are Democrats who want to limit our military industrial complex, and allow for gays to marry by getting government out of the business of defining marriage. This would be an equally facetious argument from the opposite perspective.
If you want to know what the Libertarian Party stands for check out the web address below, but don't let someone who has a very skewed and obviously negative view of the party define it for you, I am sure all of are smart enough not to fall for this ruse.
http://www.lp.org/introduction/the-libertarian-option
Kudos to Rachel Maddow for digging-up those important; yet overlooked news-stories! She was the only Western (let alone American) news media to mention 'World Metrology Day' Thursday, May 20th.
METROLOGY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology
World Metrology Day: http://www.worldmetrologyday.org/
Worldwide, the African news-media sources made-up the majority of mentions, with a sprinkling of Russian, and Korean media sites making mention of 'World Metrology Day.'
All is not lost; as term 'Metrology' got mention over the last day! So relax, the Metrology profession will always play vital roles (like Oxygen does for life); that the profession may not even need a much publicized day? After all, is there a “World Oxygen Day??”
http://tinyurl.com/37rzdt7
Still, not even one other mention in the West?? If we let the ‘Metrology’ field get “lost in the shuffle” and “taken too much for granted,” will we have to “dig-out” or find (or even rent-out) those old-tools (built in the Metrology profession’s heyday); in order to compare the old tools to today's newer tools?
After all, it’s seems necessary to “take the time” to make sure "an inch is an inch," or "a pound is a pound" or “a meter is a meter.” Just like asking (or measuring) “the meaning of……meaning,” the “context of…….context,” and of course, “the meaning (or context) of the word….’is!’
Talk about "measures of importance!!"
Just get here didja, n.echevarria3? I don't know who you think you're addressing, but I don't think it's anybody who generaly posts in this blog. We vote! We care! We know what went down during the Bush Administration,and we were/are horrified by it all.
Yes, I plead guilty to the enjoyment of football, baseball & hockey. Basketball, Golf & NASCAR do nothing for me, though. However there are a few things that I generally do when I post to a blog like this -
1) I read what's been posted before, and try to get a handle on where the other posters stand on the issues. If you'd bothered to do that, you might have realized that you just spent quite a long time preaching (perhaps ranting would be a better word) to the choir.
2) I usually try to be somewhat polite & genteel. In other words, I don't call the other posters names, impugn their intellect, or belittle their views. There's room for any progressive opinion here, and even for constructive comments from the occasional conservative.
3) I try to stick to one idea per post. I saw some potentialin your initial comments re: the Federal Reserve, but you strayed far afield fro there (occasionally wandering back) and pretty much rambled all over the map.
4) I DON'T YELL!!!! Did your shift key get stuck about halfway down that post? All upper case characters are hard to read. Cap or bold a word or 2 for emphasis, but please, NO SHOUTING!!
Come on back some time while the show's on live and we're all here - but please, please, please, find a a calm, quiet place inside yourself first, and write from there.
Thanks for caring, and have a great weekend.
Thom, you're usually accurate in your assertions, or accurate enough to be debatable. But this statement is just pure nonsense: "Libertarians believe we the people have no right to collectively get together and create an institution called government to protect ourselves from predators."
Libertarians believe in government. They are statists. If a collection of people get together and execute a contract to protect themselves from predators, and all those people abide by that contract, then what we call "government" is simply the institutions and methods we use to hold people to the contract. Libertarians most definitely support such institutions and methods. Anarchists don't. Libertarians do. Rand Paul, the Republican, is NOT a libertarian, or at least he's not running as one. And the Tea Baggers are, likewise, NOT libertarians, despite what they might claim.
I wonder sometimes why you deliberately mischaracterize libertarians. I tend to think that it's because you, like anyone in the media, feel a pressure to make your assertions concise and to the point. The push for brevity is critical because, in the modern information age, we all have lots to do and think about. So, long-winded people don't get much traction. But the pursuit of brevity (and, in turn, it's pursuit of attention) can lead you to make false assertions. But I'm an avid listener to your show, both the local one in PDX and the national one. And I think I've heard you say that you once considered yourself libertarian. Perhaps your mischaracterizations of libertarianism are a kind of "rebound" effect. When we lose our first (or nearly first) ideals as youngsters, we tend to recoil pretty far. My guess would be that you're still not over the crash of your youthful libertarianism. You're still resentful that libertarianism failed/betrayed you so badly. Of course, any idealism will eventually betray you, because idealists, including libertarians, live in a delusional and false universe. But we always have our biggest backlash against our early ideals. Then again, I'm wrong all the time and I'm probably wrong about this, too.
Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you'd make an attempt to characterize libertarianism more accurately in the future.
Thanks for all you do.
IF YOU PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO BE SPOKEN TO AS IF YOU WERE ALL IDIOTS AND MORONS THEN STOP ACTING LIKE YOU'RE ALL BRAIN DEAD!!!THAT'S ALL!!!START ACTING LIKE THE PROUD AND RESPONSIBLE AMERICANS THAT WE'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE!!!I ACT LIKE A PROUD AND RESPONSIBLE AMERICAN BECAUSE I GO OUT AND VOTE,AND WHEN I SEE SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS WRONG I CONTACT MY REPRESENTATIVES AND MAKE MY OBJECTIONS KNOWN,DO ALL OF YOU PEOPLE OUT THERE DO THE SAME?!!!NO!!!YOU PEOPLE OUT THEIR CALLING YOURSELVES AMERICANS DON'T DO THE SAME BECAUSE IF YOU DID WE WOULDN'T KEEP GETTING CRAPPED ON!!!
The real problem is that we have the so-called "Federal Reserve" which is NOT "Federal",they mint our currency and then we all have to pay them from our tax dollars and what's worse is that nobody really knows who's in charge of that so-called "Federal Reserve" and therefore nobody knows who is to be held accountable.And by the way,does anybody know what's become of our Gold Reserve?Congress has the power to mint out currency so why has that power been taken away from Congress?These "Banksters" and "Robber-Barons" have gotten fat and rich at the cost of our hard work and our Civil Liberties.The so-called "Federal Reserve" does as it pleases and flatly refuses to make itself transparet and do all kinds of "Tangos-In-The-Dark" with all of these greedy,self-serving hipocrites that we have in office calling themselves "Patriots" and nobody bats an eye.I heard that the "Federal Reserve" has agreed to allow Congress a one-time audit and and I can't wait ti see how that's going to turn out because the "Federal Reserve" is too dirty with too many skeletons in their closets and too complicit in what's going wrong with our economy.Why is the "Federal Reserve" allowing Congress just a one-time audit?If the "Federal Reserve" is on the level (HA HA!!!!AND I'M THE POPE!!!) then why just a one-time audit?Why not a yearly audit to keep them honest? (again HA HA HA HA!!!!,yeah RIGHT!!!)Instead of being so involved and engrossed in your sports,your NASCAR and all of that other crap that you people are so hung up on why don't you people get involved like our Forefathers did?Where in the hell would we be if our Forefathers and Foremothers (May God rest their souls,Amen.) had been too busy with football,NASCAR or any of that other crap when it came time to take care of business?I don't know where we'd be if our great Forefathers and Foremothers had done that but I sure as hell know that we wouldn't be here.I go out and vote,do all of you get out there to vote like you should?I seriously doubt it because if all of you really gave a crap the "Federal Reserve" and all of their "Robber-Baron" cronies wouldn't have a leg to stand on.A country as great as America is and we're in hock to chinese?How in the hell did that/was that allowed to happen?Do you people realize that if china were to decide to call in our debt to them we'd be completely ruined?Are you people so stupid and dense that you think that any other country is going to stand with us against china after all of the excesses and abuses that this country has committed and continues to committ?I once heard that in Ireland it was "fashionable to kill Americans",what in the hell is that all about?!!!We're hated and looked upon by the rest of the world with nothing but disgust and regarded with the utmost contemt,and you people calling yourselves Americans are anything but because if you were true Americans that kind of thing would bother the hell out of you,just like it bothers the hell out of me.How in the hell can you people call yourselves Americans when we've lost face with the rest of the world and are looked upon as liars,cheats and murderers white you morons can only think about your crap football,your shit NASCAR and all of that other crap whlle this great country is looted and ruined?!!!IF YOU PEOPLE ARE TRUE AMERICANS THEN PROVE IT!!!!GET OUT THERE AND VOTE AND BAND TOGETHER AND INSIST THAT THOSE THAT WE'VE ELECTED TO OFFICE ANSWER FOR WHAT THEY DO AND HAVE DONE!!!"BY THE PEOPLE,FOR THE PEOPLE.",THAT'S HOW OUR GREAT FOREFATHERS AND FOREMOTHERS MEANT FOR THIS GOVERNMENT TO BE!!!,NOT FOR US TO BE ROBBED,PLUNDERED,DENIED OUR CIVIL RIGHTS/HAVE OUR CIVIL RIGHTS BEING DIMINISHED AND TAKEN COMPLETE ADVANTAGE OF AS THE CITIZENS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY LIKE WHAT'S BEEN DONE AND CONTINUES TO BE DONE TO US!!!THE RICH GET RICHER WE CONTINUE TO GET CRAPPED ON AND OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES ERODED AND NOBODY SEES THIS?!!!WHAT KIND OF NONSENSE IS THIS THAT THE BANKS MESSED UP AND WE HAD TO BAIL THEM OUT AND THEN A LOT OF THOSE THAT WERE THE CAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL CRISIS IN TRHE FIRST PLACE WERE EVEN HAVING LAVISH PARTIES AND GIVING EACH OTHER EXUBERANT "BONUSES" THAT NOT ONLY DID THOSE CROOKS AND CHEATS NOT NEED BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD BIG FAT BACK ACCOUNTS AND MULTIMILLION DOLLAR HOMES AND WHAT DO WE/DID WE GET IN RETURN?!!!A BIG KICK IN THE ASS!!!THAT'S ALL WE GOT WHILE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN REAL AND DIRE NEED HAVE TO LIVE IN POVERTY AS IF WE WERE SOME THIRD WORLD COUNTRY,AND YOU PEOPLE ARE SO DAMNED BLIND AND HARD UP FOR AND SO MADLY IN LOVE WITH YOUR STUPID SPORTS AND NASCAR THAT YOU CAN'T SEE ANY OF THIS?!!!THAT "BENEDICT ARNOLD"-CROOK BUSH HAD THE GALL TO SAY THAT EITHER WE WERE WITH HIM OR WE WERE WITH THE TERRORISTS BUT WHAT ABOUT HIM AND HIS LONG STANDING BUSINESS TIES WITH THE BIN LADEN FAMILY?!!!WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY ASK HIM ABOUT THAT?!!!THAT TRAITOR BUSH WENT ON NATIONAL TV AND FIRST TOLD US THAT IRAQ HAD WMDs THEN SHAMELESSLY UNSCRUPULOUSLY HAD THE GALL TO SAY THAT HE HAD NEVER MADE SUCH A CLAIM AND YOU IDIOTS DIDN'T SO MUCH AS BAT AN EYE?!!!BIN LADEN HATED HUSSEIN BECAUSE WHEN BUSH SR. AND OTHER TRAITORS THAT HAVE THE UNMITIGATED GALL TO CALL THEMSELVE OUR LEADERS HELPED HUSSEIN TAKE OVER IRAQ HUSSEIN GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE AND ARABS DON'T LIKE IT WHEN OTHER ARABS KILL THEIR OWN,AND HOW IN THE HELL DID IT JUMP FROM BEING BIN LADEN THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11 TO HUSSEIN?!!!ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT THERE REALLY SO DAMNED STUPID AND SO ENGROSSED WITH YOUR SPORTS AND NASCAR BULLSHIT THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW/COULDN'T SEE ANY OF THAT?!!!BUSH TOOK A SWORN AND SOLEMN OATH TO PROTECT AND CONSERVE OUR GREAT CONSTITUTION THEN WAS QUOTED AS SAYING "THE CONSTITUTION IS JUST A G_D DAMNED PIECE OF PAPER",LOOK AT THAT,AFTER HE SAID "SO HELP ME GOD" AT THE END OF TAKING THE PRESIDENTIAL OATH,THE TRAITOR EVEN TOOK THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD AND THAT WAS THE MAN THAT YOU IDIOTS ALLOWED TO TAKE US INTO A WAR JUST ON HIS SAY-SO?!!!THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT GAVE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO HAVE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION BUILD HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS IN IRAQ AND WHEN QUESTIONED ABOUT THAT THE BUSH ADMINSTRATION SAID THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WERE GIVEN BY THE IRAQI GIVERNMENT TO THE BUSH ADMISTRATION AND THEN YOU MORONS DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE ARABS HATE US?!!!I LOVE THIS COUNTRY BUT I'M ASHAMED TO CALL MYSELF AN AMERICAN AND FOR GOOD REASON!!!AND FOR YOU MORONS THAT LIKE TO TAKE CHEAP SHOTS I'M NOT AN ARAB,IN FACT I'M A PUERTO RICAN,YOU STUPID,BACKWOODS RACIST IDIOTS!!!
@Maxrot, you got that right!
We all have to remember to say "Tea Baggers", not the "tea party." They named themselves, quite properly.....sorry guys no "changies".....it's always respectful to call people by their right name, remember your etiquette.
Also I wanted to say that I disagree with this loon. I would suggest we do worse than a boot heel to the throat, that is simply too nice. BP (bastards of petroleum) Need to be fined not only for the damage done and clean up, but, like the tobacco companies, they should be forced to pay for environmental adds as well to educate people. Any petition to sign for that one, too? C'mon, we need to hold them responsible, make them feel the consequences.
I know I am like a broken record on this . . .
Society is not just a collection of individuals.
There is something organic in community and the communal that goes way beyond the sum of the parts. Even the very concept of ‘Language’ could not even exist without the communal. The human animal is literally wired by genetics to be communal and to have language.
Libertarians are unable to simply grok the concept that society is not just a collection of individuals. It is so far outside their box that they don’t even grok it is outside their box. The mindset is actually a deficiency . . . A flaw in the wiring of a human animal.
The constant fear-mongering and jingoistic manipulation of the authoritarian oriented pro-corporate contingency is designed to re-write our genetic code to operate on their level. Trauma-induced changes to genes may lead to PTSD . . . http://www.physorg.com/news192192008.html
Interesting link on the lead up and blowout of the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2Fs6NG/www.theoildrum.com/node/6493
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rladlof
You have to admit it takes a certain amount of "brains" to know when to keep your mouth shut.
As a former Democrat, I had found common ground with some of the Libertarian views. Where we parted ways was the libertarian view of no government intervention regarding business. Just as we have government intervention by means of enforcing laws for the common folk, we need government intervention to enforce laws that prevent predatory behavior by those who hide behind the man made creation called the corporation.
I think Thom made a very good point when he said the Libertarians were a party of selfishness (or something along those lines). It made me think.
Selfishness seems to be the root of most all of our problems. We need to, as a society, to get away from the idea that it's all about me, me, me.
oh....
@harry, I wasn't talking about personal tattoos ;-)
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maxrot re: 109: that;s already there.
I love increase viewership/listenership . . . :/D
Kinda makes me bonkers the way these right-wing-nuts (TeaNuts?) constantly accuse our kind corporatist President Obama of acting like a tough progressive. A month after the gusher started the administration has now asked BP to publish information relating to spill and cleanup. If only Obama was applying even a little boot to BP like...
kicking BP's 'other end' with eminent domain to get the solar patents out of BP's back pocket, or
stating a clear intent to file an amicus brief in the existing lawsuit(s) against BP (showing them the boot), or
stating intent to promulgate a leasing policy that would disqualify bad actors like BP
@DRichards: NOOOOO!!!!!! Rand DID inherit Ron’s brains . . . What he missed out on was Ron’s affability and good sense to keep his mouth shut.
@harry, maybe we can get one of Newt buggering Uncle Sam on your back door.
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Someone please stop me now... flag as offensive for the love of god flag as offensive.
@harry, oh boy oh boy, your neighbors are going to love all your Republican Fatheads. Americans just love their Republican Fatheads.
N