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@Quark, I guess this will not be a good comment for you to dwell on. America may be heading the way of the Ottoman Empire did prior to WWI, in which massacres of certain groups of its citizens was not all that uncommon. The Armenian genocide did not start during WWI, it started well before that, some notable events can be found in the 1800's up to WWI.
These are the historical accounts Thom should be comparing the current environment to. He should also review the Balkans in the same time period. There was a lot of atrocities being committed in these areas that were all but sanctioned by the local and national governments.
I understand what Thom is talking about, but it seems that he's drawing his comparisons from the wrong thread of history. The era of WWI, prior, during and afterwards is very illuminating, its a shame most people know little to anything about it. The more I read, the more I realize I know nothing, yet feel I know more about why the 20th century shaped up the way it did, than most people know about it. The 20th century didn't begin with WWII. WWI really reshaped Europe and the World, and not just its maps.
@ Wendy, Nels -
Funny - I find Randi VERY enjoyable. Yes, I occasionally get a bit upset with her, especially when she takes a caller's initial point incorrectly, and spends the remainder of the call trying to overshout him, but NOBODY, IMHO, puts more effort into research and show prep.
Tell ya what, guys - DON'T listen to her show, but subscribe to her newsletter anyway - you'll find more links to really prime debunks for neocon talking points in one of her newsletters than you will in a month on this blog.
@Maxrot - Absolutely!!
If you can't get to the Tom Toles cartoon with the above link I posted, try this and click on the first link:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=tom+toles+cartoons&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Tom+Toles&gs_rfai=&fp=467c3568f2eec009
There might not a conspiracy to teach kids that the Earth might be in trouble - but (to state the obvious) there's a strong conspiracy to say the Earth isn't.
@Nels - Somehow, I find Beck worse than the rest. He combines the worst aspects of all the other neocon pundits with the revival-tent preachiness of a Jimmy Swaggart, and the combination is frighteningly effective when applied to his particular audience. Limbaugh and the rest at least make some pretense of speaking on the level of the intellect (what KIND of "intellect" that might be is so far open to debate that we can't even begin to address it here, but I think you know what I mean). Beck is TOTALLY about emotional appeal. Logic be damned, don'tch'a see the swastika on the blackboard??!!
I read this opinion piece from our local paper. It is spot on.
http://www.woodburnindependent.com/news/2010/April/16/Opinion_Staff.Columns/.recessions.roots.have.been.digging.deeper.for.years/news.aspx
Recession’s roots have been digging deeper for years
I can’t help but feel this current recession has been five decades or so in the making, as major American corporations have slowly, but surely, swallowed more and more power in this country.
While mass layoffs have only recently taken center-stage, the art of downsizing has long been the preferred brushstroke of increasing “profits,” not just in the manufacturing industry with jobs being shipped to “developing” countries, but also stretching out into retail, the media, banking, technology and elsewhere, as executives trim payroll with the nonchalance of clipping an extra leaf or two from a rhododendron
Read the rest at the link above.
@Wendy, I'm certain there are many progressives that do like the style of Rhodes and Maloy. I think its a wonderful sign that there is such a diversity of progressive talkers, that I can identify the ones I like vs. the ones I don't. Much better than just one monolithic voice droning on and on until you just tune out.
Maxrot,
I really appreciate your Nazis in the 20s and today's tea parties comment --- it is hopeful.
BTW, I thought today'sTom Toles political cartoon ("Hedge Fun") was funny*:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/tomtoles/
*I always remind myself that humor = tragedy + timing!
@Maxrot I'm not a Randi Rhodes fan, but Mike Malloy is great for when I want to vent. When it all gets to be too much, Mike Malloy provides a good outlet. But, like you, I can't listen to him on a daily basis. I prefer a much more positive environment. Glad to see you do too. =)
@Wendy, I completely agree with your comment... in fact its why I rarely if ever listen to Rhodes and Maloy, I agree with their political veiw, but their method is grating (to me).
I know there is a lot of fear cropping up about the similarities between the Nazi's in the '20's and Today's Tea Party, but one of the biggest differences between Germany then and America now is this, Germany had the collective boot of vengeful allies at its neck, whereas America does not.
Germany had vegence on its agenda, (much like France had pre-WWI over Alsace-Loraine). America doesn't have the united cause, it just doesn't.
@Mark K -
re: Jobs that are going to Mexico are generally in response to American manufacturers inability to compete with cheap Asian-made goods, not to any sinister plan concocted by the Mexicans.
Did Thom, or anybody in this venue, say that it WAS an evil Mexican plan? Can't say that I've heard that sort of thing from ANYBODY anywhere near the CENTER, let alone the left. (Pay no attention to the goons on the right - they've given up on stuff like "logic", and all that other liberal claptrap).
re: Is it because in the minds of many every problem does in some fashion, no matter how tenuous, boil down to race?
For some, no dobt, it does - BUT NOT TO THE FOLKS IN HERE! Mark, my friend, I often think that you look for a racial bent where none necessarily exists. If American manufacturing jobs are vanishing because China makes prison labor available to manufacturers, would a tarrif on goods manufactured in China be "racist"? Would your opinion about that change if YOU were Chinese?
Is nationalism, of necessity, racism in reverse? I don't think so.
It absolutely amazes me that people actually listen to that garbage (Michael Savage and company)! It's very harsh on an energetic level. When I listen to it, I feel like I've been assaulted.
And it's not just the message. It's the method. If Thom spoke his message in the same manner, I would be just as turned off.
Thom, don't forget the early formation of the Freikorps groups that formed right after WWI prior to the NDASP and Thul Society collaboration. Freikorps = Militia (for the most part). These groups were the backbone for a lot of right wing political coups in the early '20's.
I am currently reading Richard Clarke's book, "Breakpoint." I can only read about a chapter at a time --- it is alot to think about (and it does scare me.) It would be SO easy to take down this country by taking out poorly-defended coastal internet routers, which connect the U.S. to the rest of the world.
This is so frightening because it is so plausible.
They preach that others who think and live differently are not only wrong but Evil in God's eyes - to me that IS dangerous. They think their God gave them the Earth to rape - which will be dangerous for us all in the end.
These are the same people who feel like their religious convictions make them able to decide what is normal and good for everyone, while usually only living with/in hate and not in love of their God. This "we know/llive best" strain of hateful thinking has been used against the Native Americans, Jewish people, Gay/Lesbians - ETC. Now it has morphed into the angry white Christians hating a government that they feel incorporates elements of these "evil" people. What they don't realize is that they have a false paradigm to begin with. When you knock down their carefully crafted house of cards, all they are left with is their irrational hate. America is strong Because of our rich diversity! I think that Palin (Limbaugh etc) encourages the continued ignorance and hate of our differences - the language the Tea Party uses even envokes violence in the mind!
Reload, kill the bill, - and the ever popular "The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots" Which is a great quote from Thomas Jefferson until you realize that it has been twisted (and in my opinion appropriated) by crazed admirers of the terrorist Tim McVeigh. (He wore this on quote his back while murdering Americans.) So why do so many of the tea baggers use this quote?! Also, what is with the cold-war era anti-communist people? Do they know what year it actually is? As a younger "mixed-race" American woman who considers herself progressive - I feel somewhat assaulted just by the false information they constantly feed into our culture - besides the obvious green light to violence they seem to have. I think these people have real anger and very little information - and that is being fed and focused by very well known hate speakers.
mstaggerlee, btw you can replace the name Glen Beck, with just about any fox commentator or neo con... works the same.
mstaggerlee, here's a simple sound bite/bumper sticker for the simple people to understand: "Glen Beck is a Hypocrit"
Does anyone else appreciate the irony of the man who presides over what amounts to an hour-long version of the "2 minutes hate" invoking the image of Big Brother?
Aren't there laws prohibiting incitement to riot, and do not these laws apply to all Americans, rather they're KKK/Neo Nazi members or Congressmen/Congresswomen?
I can tolerate hate groups being allowed to wallow in hate, but when you encourage violent actions you're an accessory to the action. Much like Charlie Manson was guilty of murder, not because he wielded a knife or gun, but because he encouraged and ordered his followers to commit murder.
....I don’t know if I should be mortified to confess that since childhood I have been a Stooge fanatic, but I’m not (mortified, that is). After all those incomprehensible repackagings of a half dozen shorts each, Sony Pictures finally got it right by releasing a multi-volume DVD set of all the Three Stooges shorts in chronological order; pocketbook issues prevented me from indulging myself beyond the 1934-1945 all-Curly stuff, but 24 hours non-stop worth of shorts is “Moe” than sufficient to “nyuk” myself out.
But I didn’t really want to talk about that, or those arrogant knuckleheads employed by United Airlines. I once found a pay stub of one of these people on the ground; they get paid that much for sitting around, occasionally getting off their fundaments to yell out some harassing comment at us? I think I get their real problem: it drives them nuts to see that you don’t have to be white and swell-headed to do what they do just as well.
Now it’s time to get to the point of this post. Not all of the Stooges’ shorts were good; some were dumb as dumb is. But at least you always got what you were expecting to get—the moronic logic, the head bops, the eye-pokes, the stomach punches. Rather dispiritingly, it appears that the Obama administration does not want anyone to know what we will be getting with Justice Stevens’ replacement on the Supreme Court. The frontrunner appears to be Elena Kagan, who what little we know of her judicial philosophy seems to have something to disturb just about everyone. Since everyone knows so little about her philosophy, things like the recent “outing” in a CBS blog can easily be magnified by a factor of ten by the Republican base, while Kagan’s apparent support of some of the worst abuses by the Bush “war on terror” has some on the left discombobulated. The Republicans will attack anything that moves or breaths if it has anything to do with the Democrats anyways, but the left should be afraid of getting bopped, poked or punched by another depressing “compromise” move by Obama without any real pay-off.
Since Obama is going to get a fight no matter who he chooses, why not pick an intellectual heavyweight from the left who will, if not receive the support of Republicans, will by superior moral and ethical force be a challenge to any Republican who wants to score political points attacking him or her—and be a real counterweight on the court who will occasionally wake-up Justice Kennedy out of his philosophical slumbers? But if Obama wants to play it safe, he will merely be a stooge.
I don't think Palin/Bachman are moving the country to the right. I think they're drawing out the closeted bigots that have been here the whole time.
Mark K: I have said here that my principle concern about Thom’s arguments about free trade—besides being reduced to overly simplistic talking points—is the slight hint of race creeping in, and we have already talked about the effect of inflammatory speech. Why is it that we never talk about our massive trade deficits with Canada and Europe as a whole? Is it because in the minds of many every problem does in some fashion, no matter how tenuous, boil down to race?
I also heard Amy Goodman’s conversation with Charles Bowden over the weekend; I suspect that the character of this conversation was much different than the one Thom had with Bowden. In regard to free trade, Bowden was far more critical of its effect on Mexico’s impoverished than he was of that “sucking sound” that Americans like to whine about. Jobs that are going to Mexico are generally in response to American manufacturers inability to compete with cheap Asian-made goods, not to any sinister plan concocted by the Mexicans. There is also an inherent contradiction in the anti-Mexican rhetoric on the jobs front: if in fact so many jobs were being lost to Mexico, then why has the number of undocumented workers in this country rise so dramatically since NAFTA was passed?
It can’t be because of all those jobs allegedly being sucked into Mexico. That “problem” is clearly overstated, or not put into context. What we do know is that after NAFTA was passed, 22 million more jobs were created during the Clinton years, and millions of undocumented workers who couldn’t find all those jobs going to Mexico went north (nobody knows the true extent of unemployment in Mexico, since at least a quarter of the economy is “informal”). But they first had to abandon their farms to go to the cities in search of these alleged jobs, because competition from American produce made making a living untenable for many impoverished Mexican farmers. Someone needs to stop with this self-pitying attitude; after all, we are still the bully on the block.
re: Edible money... I like chocolate coins... maybe we can make fruit roll up dollar bills. ;-)