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Both the constitutionally protected right of free speech and the freedom of the press reflect the authors' view of the desirability of an unimpeded circulation of ideas. A position that money is speech, sets up a small, wealthy group's ability to limit every one else's right to spread their ideas. This money/speech connection violates the clear intent of the founders. In reality, free press is simply a continuation of free speech in written form.
Plutocrats, oligarchs, fascists is much to mild a term to describe the ruling upper class power elite. Among them are the worst criminals to ever walk this planet. They are willing to destroy a planet for greed and self interest. They are creating a hell on earth with global warming. They are sending all of us to our death camps. The conformists living in denial would have us all singng songs, holding hands with flower baskets, marching to our doom.
Aliceinwonderland, Palindromedary, and Mark Saulys ~ I have to side with Palindromedary concerning Waco and Ruby Ridge; however, for different reasons. I'm not sure if any of you are aware, but both cases involved religious fanatics who withdrew from society in order to survive the apocalypse in the Book of Revelations. In both cases, these "fanatics" stockpiled weapons and ammunition.
That is the real kicker. In case you are unfamiliar with The Book of Revelations, there is one interesting line where it states quite clearly that "He who liveth by the sword must die by the sword."
Therefore it makes no logical sense whatsoever for any self proclaimed religious "fanatic" to stockpile weapons--unless they are insane, suicidal, or have a hidden agenda. In any case I can only assume that law enforcement officials are aware of this little paradox and consider such behavior to be a clear and present threat.
Weapon ownership by average citizens--in particular the well controlled peons of the right wing--mean far less danger because their behavior is much more predictable. Also, average citizens display no probable reason to assume a clear and present threat.
Furthermore, like Aliceinwonderland suggested, if the situation got out of hand one fully armed black hawk helicopter, any tank, or several drones could have ended any confrontation quickly and in a very decisive manner. I'm not familiar enough with that story to speak for the particular situation you are talking about with a hundred armed right-wingers; however, since the two parties with one name and the media make these people their darlings I would imagine that every effort would be extended to prevent a full blown massacre.
The idea that any group of 100 armed people could actually intimidate the government into backing down is ridiculous. Don't you remember the "Levitation of the Pentagon" back in 1967? Let me remind you that 70,000 people showed up that day. The only reason they got away with that without being mercilessly mowed down is because they were completely unarmed. If the government actually opened fire on that crowd, that would have been the last mistake they ever made. The government was well aware of that fact; and, still is.
Never underestimate the power of well organized nonviolent protest, especially when a violent one doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding without popular support. You want to generate popular support you have to do what they did in China... Temp the government to fire upon unarmed civilians and broadcast it world wide. Then you will have your revolution; and, you will win.
Yes, my hair stands on end, too. Then my hackels get raised and someone gets his head bitten off (or a letter to the editor of the local newspaper)--like the farmer who offered to cut down my fencerows and the county worker who put the mower blade on its side and hacked my trees along (several feet from the ditch and at least 10 from the road) the road, so that the limbs are a twisted mess and invite disease and tree death.
One fencerow cut down across the road from me now lets water fill my neighbor's horse barn with water everytime it rains. The same run-off ends up coming across the road the opposite way into my yard. We are trying to beekeep and grow beecrops organically. We've NEVER drank the water from our well as the farm run-off flows to it. We didn't have these problems until the farmer came in and did his work.
I talk to my neighbors who are ALL effected by some "farm invention" and they bitch to me about it but keep silent and suffer. I guess they are hoping I'll be a hard-ass for them, which I will and enjoy doing, but they need to support me visibly. I joked with my husband about getting myself a tee-shirt with "Fighting Liberal" across the chest. I'm done with nice. I'm ready to fight.
The country life is NOT relaxing. We are always fighting against the natural gas pipeline (so the farmers can have cheap gas, which won't be cheap long), potential gas drilling, tiling across our property, telling us which trees to plant or not plant, their soil and chemicals in our yard, etc.
Mark Saulys, excellent points! I salute you, brother... - AIW
Palindromedary, I think you might have some truth in that the authorities might become a little more respectful of the citizenry when they think they might be armed. The Black Panthers were probably the best example of the NRA ideal of citizens arming themselves to defend against government tyrranny - but don't tell those phony bastards at the NRA that, African Americans with guns is their worst nightmare and the real reason they want to arm up much of the time.
However, a society where everybody is armed might be different. I recently met someone from Sarajevo - where everybody is armed. He told me that the police there, if they have any suspicion or doubt about anybody, don't even take the risk of stopping them because of the near certainty that they be armed (and hot headed), they just shoot them down from a distance.
The reason for nonviolent resistance is not cowardice as it is, in fact, the most courageous form of resistance. It is not to be confused with running away in the face of danger from the oppressive authority and abandoning your post of resistance. It's when you stand your ground, refuse to move and just take it without violently resisting. It's when you sit down if front of the tanks and don't move and is, in fact, the most powerful form of resistance.
Non violent resistance is a method resorted to not so much because of what is considered its moral rectitude but because it is essential to movement building in the initial stages of your campaign when most of the public doesn't yet get what you're about and because it is the one most likely to succeed where the state and authority has a monopoly on violence. This is why the state and authorities always want you to adopt violent methods and send provocateurs to infiltrate your ranks or try to mischaracterize your movement as violent when it's not so they could massacre you, violently repress you or discredit you with the public.
Unless you are some kind of Leninist vanguardist you want to build a mass movement and win the support of the public. So then, particularly when your movement is new and young and most of the public still thinks you're a bunch of weird odd balls on some wild, way out trip, how you conduct yourself really matters.. When you plainly outclass your enemy you win the support of the public. Gandhi and Martin Luther King proved that it's not the "ends" that "justfy the means" but, rather, the "means" that "justify the ends".
Eliofight- I don't mind telling you, your posts make the hair stand up on the back of my neck. - AIW
Palin, I think any prospects for us "setting a good example to the world in representative democracy" is already a lost cause.
Yes, we the people outnumber the government forces. But they have bigger weapons. (Haven't we had this discussion before?) You're right; a majority of the armed citizens here are right-wingers. I have never liked guns and haven't owned one. However if I was a landowner threatened with "eminent domain" by some big-ass oil company, like some folks here in southwestern Oregon now are, I might re-consider. I know of no more effective means of persuading trespassers to vacate my property than backing it up with a firearm: "Wanna make it home for dinner tonight? Leave or I'll shoot!"
The sad reality, Palin, is that Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan seem worlds away to most Americans; except of course, those unfortunates sucked into the military. That part of the world is distant enough to insulate most of us from the horrifying violence our fascist empire has imposed on its inhabitants, including the children.
I think you're spot-on about the ruling elite's motivation for spying on our telephone & online communications. They're screwing us, and we know that they're screwing us, and they know that we know, and they also know there's a point where we will have reached the limit of how much abuse we are willing to tolerate. - Aliceinwonderland
DAM -- Do not listen to what economist say if you can understand the numbers yourself. The thing you need not to do is base policy decisions on anecdotal evidence. I agree income (also known as (AKA), aggregate demand) is needed more than anything. In order to make that happen probably both the deficit and debt should be increased. For that reason, I do not think policy should be driven by any consideration of current deficit.
I don’t understand how a rich man can refuse to pay the state or federal government when making a profit on federal lands. When I’m 27 years old just trying to find a niche for myself in the modern world. I have 30,000 in college debt because I was told to get and education to be successful. Can I just refuse to pay that for the rest of my life? I obtained the education to become a contributing citizen to society why should I pay when rich greedy men don’t (not even mentioning TAXES)?
On another NOTE when I was 16 years I stole a value 1,600 dollars with four people all of whom was over 18 years of age. I was the only one who went to jail and I was the only one who turned themselves in. How can this man steal MORE and not repay his debt LIKE I HAD TOO. The state of VA took 10.5 months from me for a 16 year old mistake. I am a good person just was young and dumb. I don’t feel like that old man should be let off easier than a child……..
AMERICA WTF….. LIVE UP TO YOUR NAME……
Get them TOM…. <3
Quit my job 3 weeks ago because I worked for the state of VA, and my bosses rob and steal from tax payers and I could not stand it because of the same thoughts as above.
I live in the middle of Ohio grain farm country. The family farms are huge operations now. They receive thousands and sometimes millions in subsidies (our tax dollars)--find out what your farmers get for subsidies; the info is online. Don't be fooled by the numerous female names. They get subsidies by just having their names on the deed--the ones I know never farm--the only time they step into the field is to bring dinner.
The farmer needs to be part of the climate discussion. In order to have another row of corn or soybeans or to have full sunshine on their crops (and more in subsidy money), the landscape has been almost completely denuded of small stands of trees and fencerows. The only farmer planting trees is the lone organic farmer. The wind and snow just whips across the landscape now. My house and windows are covered in chemical-leaden soil most of the year, even in the winter. Sounds like a potential dustbowl to me. Plus their chemicals have made it difficult for bees to stick around and survive.
And the farmers we talk to about this issue seem to be uninformed or just don't care about the damage they are doing or the fact that without trees, there is NO AIR to breathe and no reason to grow crops when there are NO people.
Though my family came from farmers, I find that the modern farmer is my enemy and an enemy to the future for my children and grandchildren. They do damage the same as any large corporation and MUST BE part of the discussion and the solution.
snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp … everything you need to know about Cliven Bundy & his supporters.
Video on Philadelphia, the City That Bombed Itself. 65 homes were destroyed and a number of people were killed. Later, law suits cost Philadelphia taxpayers millions of dollars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CD9sqt8oIXE
AIW: I certainly agree with almost everything you said. But, I have to point out that Ruby Ridge and Waco were just a few resisters. Yes, in both cases the children were killed. That was a terrible shame. But just like the countries the US likes to invade, who really can't defend themselves or match the hi-tech weaponry of the US, they are easy targets because they are over there and not over here or relatively isolated on compounds...except the MOVE compound in Philadelphia where the police dropped bombs on the row house which managed to wipe out quite a few units not associated with the MOVE unit.
Do you really think our government would choose to stand and fight their own civilians if it meant that many thousands of our own children would be killed by their weaponry? I think they would be more willing to compromise than shoot it out.
Not many USians are losing sleep over the killing of many thousands of Iraqi or Afghani or Pakistani children. They are not losing sleep over the thousands of deaths of children in Syria as our government aids Al Qaeda terrorists in trying to oust the Assad government.
But if it's own citizens are heavily armed and a massive insurrection breaks out in our own country, that would mean that the crooked politicians would have to make a decision to sick their military troops upon their own citizens. And it would mean that the government would be killing our children along with the citizens. So much for setting a good example to the world in "representative democracy".
Just like the government backed down in Nevada, the government would have to back down from confronting masses of well armed citizens. They would be outnumbered. And if they did persist in murdering so many citizens...they'd be hanged for war crimes when the citizens prevailed!
But, I'm afraid the only people who will be well armed and confrontational will be the right wingers. I don't see a mass armed uprising coming from those who don't even have them. Of course, it would be really foolish for any one individual or small group to take up arms against the government...they'd be squashed just like Waco and Ruby Ridge.
The one thing the citizens would lack is organization into a unifying massive force scattered throughout all the cities. The damage to the ruling elite's money making machine would be damaged...and they may even be hanged as traitors to the country should the citizens prevail. Of course, if it was a massive unified force of all right wing rednecks dumb enough to think they are fighting for liberty and freedom while being used as pawns by the likes of the Koch brothers and all the other ruling elite, then they will likely just hang the leading Democrat leaders...then they will eventually realize, maybe, that they've been had. By that time the new right wing gestapo pigs will have banned all gun ownership lest their peons finally wake up to what just happened and turn on the right wingers.
No one's going to be foolish enough to strike on their own and martyr themselves. But, what helped bring down the Mubarak regime was communication through the internet...through their mobile phones. When the word got out they were going to have a massive demonstration in Tahrir Square they all came. And I think that the US ruling elite are afraid that if people can communicate so easily, and stealthily (as in encryption), then they will have a way of unifying any mass movement. That's part of the reason why they have tried to put into place a way to monitor everyone. Most people don't use encryption or methods of obfuscation like TOR. But they could...especially the one who are really fed up with government spying.
I do hope that the government doesn't let that rancher get away with it. But, I think that it would give the right wingers a lot of anti-government propaganda (especially against Obama and the Democrat party) .
But, I say...so what? Let them bellow like cows. They're just a relatively small group of right wingers. The government's kind of target. You know, like Grenada or Panama or ....all the others...including RR and Waco and the bombing by police in Philadelphia on the MOVE compound!
It's our cars. Americans believe they have a sacred right to drive as much as they wish. At least since the late1960s, early 1970s, people have resisted investing in a modern, comprehensive mass transportation system necessary to get cars off the road. Every time there has been a serious effort to address the impact of air pollution (in the US, largely caused by motor vehicles), the effort was quickly sidetracked by a new campaign against the few who smoke tobacco.
One more point before I call it a night, guys. I am more sympathetic to the Ruby Ridge folks than these ranchers. The Ruby Ridge folks were not my ilk; I've no use for their religious fanaticism or their xenophobic worldview. But they were living out in the sticks, minding their own business and not hurting anyone when for no reason, they got ambushed by armed government intruders and killed. All but the dad perished; even the children were murdered.
As for Waco, the government overstepped there too. What bothered me most about that scenario was the deaths of all those kids. I didn't give a rat's ass about David Koresh (sp?) the bible-thumping pervert, but there was no excuse for incinerating those kids. - AIW
Okay Palin, sorry I misunderstood your point about the rancher's "right" to our public land. However I disagree about what a mob with guns has just "proven". Had they wanted to, those feds could have had another Ruby Ridge or Waco-type scenario that left the whole stinking lot of 'em dead in the field. It could have been quite a bloodbath. But for whatever reason, the feds chose to back off this time. Like I heard Thom (or Ed Schultz) speculating earlier today, the feds might not want that kind of drama because it makes them look bad, both here and abroad. However I still wouldn't put it past them to send in armed troops on another occasion. They've used swat teams for much lesser offenses, like their stupid drug raids for example.
That aside, I really don't think these right-wing assholes are as formidable as they seem to think they are. Please don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of the U.S. government, especially this corporate-fascist version we're dealing with now! But when it comes to right-wing macho creeps like Mr. Bundy the rancher and his yahoo mob of gun-toting fools, I couldn't care less who wins and who loses, because they ALL stink from where I sit. - Aliceinwonderland
This clown has been doing this since 1993, huh? Okay, then why is it =now= that ::faux-action:: is being taken? What is the hoped-for political pay-off, and for whom? There is =lots= of the very same thing going on all over 'The American Wild West', so why did it 'just happen' to happen =now= and -there-?!
Frankly, this reeks like three-day-old fish in the sun of 'political theater' and -blatant- manipulation of certain "less than intelligent-and-thinking" fringe elements of our society. Oh, and isn't it also an interesting 'coincidence' that it happened in =Harry= =Reid's= state, and during a -very- important election year? Naaaaa, I'm just imagening things, right? Right?! =Well=?!!
Thank you, Chuck. Much appreciated.
Just this evening on Democracy Now, they mentioned what a welfare recipient has to go through just to prove there's no husband or boyfriend co-habiting with her. She has to sit around waiting for a social worker to show up at her home. Since there's no appointment and it's a random visit, this means she can't go to work or do anything outside the home until the social worker stops by. If the social worker shows up and she's not home, she loses her benefits. This puts her in a bind that can last for days. Then when the social worker finally arrives, she must tolerate this bureaucrat pawing through her closet, even her underwear drawer, just to verify that no man is living there. How disgusting and demeaning is that?! And if she ever does let a man move in with her (which should be the prerogative of any adult and nobody's business anyway!), she's at the mercy of her neighbors. If a nosy neighbor turns her in, she's screwed. Especially if she's a single mom, which most of 'em are.
My experience with the welfare system was in the 1970s. The only kind of government aid I ever received was food stamps and MediCal. At times it was a nightmare, hanging onto those benefits. All those hoops they made you jump through... endless harassment! But in retrospect, had I not gotten the medical benefits, I might have wound up dead before my 30th birthday. The recurrent pelvic infections I suffered back then were life-threatening. They landed me in the hospital several times before I finally found a decent doctor, caring enough and competent enough to fix the problem for good. After some surgery, I was good as new. Thanks to MediCal, it didn't cost me a cent. But it cost me a lot of time and headache, because you had to work so hard just to stay in the system, constantly re-verifying your eligibility to overbearing, smug bureaucrats.
Welfare sucks. Big time. And trust me; nobody likes being on welfare. It is no free ride; they make sure you pay. With your dignity and self respect. - Aliceinwonderland
On the contrary, AIW, I think that rancher, just like many other well to do welfare queens, should have their cattle or any other valuable assets confiscated until they pay up all of the taxes they owe. Just as I think that all of the corporations, and other wealthy entities who have gotten a free ride by bribing legislators who write the tax laws favorable to wealth and who have hidden their wealth in off shore banks (welfare queens all) should have all their property and means of production procured until they pay up. The US loves to use the "Sanctions" word with other countries. Now, they need to use the "sanctions" word against the rich scum in this country who have been gaming the system.
What I was just trying to point out was that the Rancher situation proves that a mob with guns can make the government back down. They can overthrow governments. If people in other countries, who have overthrown their governments with rocks and barricades, then masses of well armed citizens shouldn't have much problem. Sure a few citizens here or there, even if they had the latest in hi-tech weapons would not stand a chance. But if the masses were large enough it would definitely work to change things. When you keep doing the same dumb things over and over again and it only gets worse...that's really kinda lame.
Our forefathers were up against a well trained fighting force armed with the latest technology of their day....and they won. The thing that keeps people from overthrowing their powerful tyrants is their chicken-hearted, cowardly fear of them...thinking they are too overpowering. Our oppressors just love all that Gandhi and MLK talk and all those encouragements to vote once again. They are harbingers of false hope that will keep us all imprisoned by our own cowardice. The only "movement" that will work will not be through the ballot box or emailing or calling or writing letters to your "representatives". They're all laughing at you. They know you are going to be too cowardly to fight them en mass with real tools of persuasion. They know you're all going to keep feeding the "hope monster", signing petitions, etc.
They only thing that seems to work, as those 100 armed citizens proved, was to stand up to and out number those others with guns. Force is the only language they understand. And it obviously works!
Now, if our government sends in many thousands of armed troops and enforces their will upon those right wing assholes then maybe I might have to change my thinking a bit! ;-} But I think our government is to lily-livered, chicken-sh1t to go against armed right wingers. Because the Kochs and others like them would have a field day in propaganda...wouldn't they?
Aliceinwonderland ~ Just for the record... You are probably right. First, I get wound up too easily. Second, we are probably damned if we do or damned if we don't anyway. No sense on getting on each others nerves in the time we have left. Please accept my apologies. You too Thom. You're really doing an outstanding job and I really do appreciate and applaud you! Have a good evening everyone!
chuckle8 ~ The vast debt I am seriously concerned with is that which is incurred as waste. I am also really concerned about our lack of income. With good income debt can be managed. Without it only disaster results. That wasted debt represents the vast majority of our debt. It started with "Star Wars" when Ronald Wilson (666) Raygun took office. It then has accelerated thorough our MIlitary Industrial Complex to include illegal foreign wars, unconstitutional spy programs, espionage, foreign aid, and all manor of Corporate Welfare in tax breaks and "incentives" programs. Money that has been successfully embezzled from our banks has been covered by our national debt. We are actually paying to keep bank robbers out of prison. What greater waste of money is there? How about the money we squander to house and maintain drug dealers and customers in prison? What about the "war on drugs?" Free trade and Corporate flight has crippled our ability to ever pay off any of this debt. Our people are all doomed to living lives of paupers and serfs who are destined to existences where they would have envied African slaves.
None of this excess expenditures beyond our means is partisan in any way. It has been a completely bipartisan effort from the one party with two names. It is the direct result of fascism and Corporate control. Please don't bring up FDR's dept which was a drop in the bucket compared to our national debt since the Raygun era. For crying out loud that debt also included fighting and winning a World War! It is precisely this lack of touch with reality that fuels the conservative propaganda that halts any progress on this issue.
Until this country resolves the problem created by "free trade" and runaway spending we are in a death spiral of debt that can only lead to the complete compromise of our national security. We will eventually be forced to sell off all our national treasures and properties to meet this debt; or, we will have to go to war. The idea that we can live on perpetual debt is ridiculous; and, suggesting it is possible is irresponsible at the very least.
Please do not think I am regurgitating right wing talking points. In every con there is a little bit of truth. This is the truth that most progressives have blinded themselves to in the desperate attempt to think they still have a little control over their government and their lives. It is illusion; and, I really don't care what any 'noted' economist has to say on the issue. You cannot squeeze blood from a rock. Without income, we are doomed.
Even the esteemed Dr. Ravi Batra came to this obvious conclusion.
Palin- Are you rejoicing that some well-to-do rancher in Nevada could get away with using public land (land belonging to we the taxpayers) for his beef cattle to graze on? Are your serious?! Am I interpreting the final paragraph of your last post correctly? So what makes that okay? Cattle do a lot of damage to land. What gives this guy the right to feed his cattle on public land for free? Meanwhile all other ranchers, those operating lawfully, must pay to feed their livestock while this Bundy dude gets a free ride. Think that's fair?
Suppose the government was having a conflict with a resident of some neighborhood in Harlem - or Detroit or Oakland - instead of a Nevada ranch... Ya think the outcome would be the same, with the government backing down? Ever notice how different the outcomes to these dramas tend to be when a rogue citizen just happens to be a rich white man? There are different facets to this picture, at least from my perspective.
I still think an armed uprising against the U.S. govenment, the greatest terrorist organization on earth, would amount to little more than a tragic joke at our expense. I don't know about the rest of you, but I get awfully tired of people spouting off like guns are the answer to everything. As Loren has suggested, the 1% would think nothing of nuking a major city in response to a violent uprising. Our lives are no more valuable to these fascist pigs than the Afghans' or Iraquis'. I'd much rather see something like a massive taxpayers' revolt; so huge, there wouldn't be enough room in their prisons for us all. How 'bout that? And what if everyone started refusing to go to work? That could bring the wheels of commerce to a grinding halt in no time. What if all college grads started refusing to pay off their student debts?! Sometimes nonviolent tactics can be more effective, with a lot less bloodshed. - Aliceinwonderland
Marc, just for the record, I've heard Thom talking about the definition of fascism and how that applies here and now. I've heard him discuss this many times on his radio show. And for what Thom is trying to accomplish, this is much more effective than name-calling. Not being a public figure, I might have that luxury; but if Thom used that approach, it would just give our adversaries ammunition to discredit him. - AIW
Aliceinwonderland and 2950-10K ~ I applaud you both for defending Thom; however, as Thom himself has said, we have till 2020 to completely turn around this country's policy on Carbon Emissions. The One Percent are sitting on Trillions of Tons of this stuff, and they intend to sell and burn every ounce of it. If they do, we are all dead.
Perhaps I am just a very impatient person. However, if we don't get on the ball people, game over. The time to raise hell is now and not after it is too late. Thom's current strategy--for that matter the entire Progressive platform's current strategy--is a game loser. The time to step up to the plate and give it all we got is now. If we wait we get what we deserve.
One last note. Even if we do step up the strategy we will probably lose. There is too much standing in our way. In my opinion waiting to raise hell is not an option. Personally, I hope Thom knows what he is doing and I am just being presumptuous. However, in the grand scheme of things, I would much rather die fighting they trying to appease the very people who are responsible for my demise.
That is all I have to say on this matter!