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We have known, since those first whistle blowers came forward during the Cheney Admintration, and divulged that even very PERSONAL calls between the miitary people and their spouses was being "listened to," by either the NSA or the CIA... Clips of those people who were tasked to listen gave the news a clip that showed it, 'way back then." So why are we now squeemish to learn that practically everything we do is monitered? I think Members of The Senate & Congress are more outraged about the leaks coming from Snowden, than a lot of the non-survivalists are. I think Members of the House and Senate have a lot more to fear than most of the rest of us!
It's true... I've said some harsh things about Bush & Cheney in years past. And I don't always agree with Presdent Obama, either. But I'm not afraid to voice my thoughts under my own name. I'm not a threat to any administration.
BTW, have you ever wondered if your Cable Box or your Direct TV or Dish Cable boxes are recording what you're watching, and any conversation you're having about the shows you watch?! Or your cell phones, or your cordless home sets? I have figured they're recording what I say (at least!) and perhaps even what I look like, for the past several years, but since I'm old and can't get around well, I don't think anyone will think I'm a threat.
I'm not saying it's the right thing to do to Citizens of the US... but neither are the TSA searches. I just went through another ghastly one with the TSA. You'd think, at my age, no one who looks like me would be pulled aside for a 2nd screening with a wand. I never wear anything metal when I go through the TSA search line; perhaps that's what's suspicious.
Stores - most of them - have our data. And when our cell is on, they can track what we're looking at, and where we are in the stores. Our doctors have more data than I think is needed, but there it is... Our banks, investment organzations, (you name it) has all this data, too. All the NSA has to do is get some sort of "flag" for our name (or someone who's name is close to ours), and you can't convince me the NSA won't pull up every piece of data already collected, and LISTEN to it - if they want to indict or exhonorte us from suspicion.
The horses are out of the burning barn, folks; there's nothing to reclaim and take them back to. We ARE the 1984 Generation. And the people younger than 25 are too uninformed to care.
A. P. Giannini is probably rolling in his grave to see the direction his bank has taken. He was born of immigrant parents in Alviso -- a poor section of what is now Silicon Valley. Went to Heald's Business School. He was ostrasized by the San Francisco elite for extending bank services to the working class. His BofA stayed open until 9 and 10 at night so workers could have access to their money. He established branch banking. Was the first to give home loans, auto loans and credit to common workers. During the Depression, he never lost the money he loaned to the working class -- mostly immigrants. He financed the building of the Golden Gate Bridge. Bankrolled Disney's Snow White. Grubstaked Kaiser, Hewlett-Packard, Fiat following WWII. He encouraged the advancement of women and promoted equal pay for women. His daughter Claire was the first woman to sit on the board of a major corporation....BofA, Sears, TransAmerica. She is an interesting woman in her own right....also always promoting the advancement of women. His favorite saying: "I don't want to be rich. No man owns a fortune; it owns him." When he died in 1949, he was not all that rich -- left an estate of $500,000. He often took no salary. Gave a lot of money away to fund scholarships, medical research grants. Do you see A. P. Giannini values in BofA today?
The Meaning of the Survellance State: The Remaking of the Miltary Industrial Complex
've commented here about this (Paul Krugman's 1984) but with my new insight it is pretty clear that the Surveillance State will not stop until the NSA drives the country totally bankrupt. You see this terrorism prevention by the NSA is the governments specific solution to the lack of a credible foreign threat. The Soviet Threat was overblown but it at least was partly credible. Compared to Thermonuclear destruction terrorism is laughable and Al Qaeda at least in places like the United States is not substantial. There is simply not a sizeable foreign adversary to the United States which justifies large expenditures in things like bombers, submarines, missiles etc. You can fake a foreign government threat for only so long and build bombers and submarines to attack ghosts only so long. However, terrorism replacing the Russians has the advantage that its potentially worldwide, never ending and perpetually became an additional source of action. The genius of the NSA surveillance program is it is gargantuan open ended and requires infinite equipment, software, hardware and a fortified location. While the the arms race it might be fundamentally useless, it employs scientists and Engineers. We see the same unthinking response of Congress to the NSA that we say to bomber and missile requests. It is good old fashioned military Keynesianism and Undoubtedly fabricated cyber threats along with terrorism is a source of open ended high tech expensive investment by the U.S.. Lets hope we get spinoffs from this colossal waste. This has one bit of disadvantage, this Rube Goldberg system is supposed to compromise our privacy but as likely as not it is largely useless and probably doesn't work. No wonder the U.S. is recovering to some degree: We have revived the old military waste which is hard to justify due to declining real world threats in a major way. The people on the left who are calling for a "balanced" approach is missing the point. While this is rational from both a security and privacy point of view it will not feed the numerous contractors who fed off the Russian Threat. The Surveillance State will never end until we can focus the U.S. on a gargantuan project like an electric car, alternative energy, infrastructure repair, it will never stop. This is the new incarnation of the Military, Industrial, Congressional Complex. The more things change the more they remain the same. - See more at: http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/karlmarx1947/blog/2013/06/meaning-nsa-surveillance#sthash.wj8Cojs2.dpuf
Amen!!!
The states do that for unemployment checks now...supposedly saves the state money...
But WHAT ABOUT THE RECIPIENTS???
DAnne as you know I am not to bright. thanks for clearing it up. I just couldn't understand why AZ state would go through all that trouble and money it made no sence to me.
It's the Patriot Act of 2001 that gives the feds the legal right to do these things. Why have so many people, including the media forgotten this? As a refresher of the constitutional rights against seach and siezure, that were lost, when this act was passed, here is a quote from the Wiki investigative article about this law.
This law authorizes -
"searches through which law enforcement officers search a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge; the expanded use of National Security Letters, which allows the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to search telephone, e-mail, and financial records without a court order, and the expanded access of law enforcement agencies to business records, including library and financial records."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
Ok, so on the radio program today you pointed out that while the NSA does not have access to the contents of our telephone calls, private contractors such as Booz Allen do. This means that private contractors have the ability to blackmail individuals at all levels of government. Personally, it makes me wonder about the very large number of people who are "stepping down" from political office at many levels of government. It also gives them access to information along the lines of "the Saudi King's sovereign wealth fund is going to purchase Company X," which is obviously inside information they can profit from. These private contractors are the only people in America who know the identity of contributors to the "dark money" organizations. If they are pro-conservative, they can punish any large corporation that gives money to an organization that promotes liberal ideas and/or candidates. And vice-versa. What's to stop them from privately "leaking" sensitive information not to the press, but directly to campaign strategists who can use that information to defeat an incumbent?
More questions: If this program has been in place, why wasn't it used to catch practitioners of international financial fraud? Why are drug lords able to move their money around? Let's demand that white collar crime be ended. If we get close to achieving this, I can promise you that the entire program will be disbanded quickly. Once the program is used to attack the power and privileges of the 1%, it will be very quietly buried.
Terror is a 2.5 mile wide tornado! Why not spend money on real national security, the kind of security that comes from funding renewable energy projects? It's really about money anyway, always is, so why not spend it wisely?
Get rid of all the privatized national security firms and redirect this funding to a real national security grid with an emphasis on wind and solar.
Tap maple trees, not phone lines!...... oh well, I tried!
Kend ~ Bless your little heart. I'm going to try to explain this to you one last time. The drivers license or state ID is not necessary to prevent voter fraud. To vote you have to register. That is why you usually register at the same time you apply for a drivers license. Much of the same documentation is needed for both actions. That means you have to provide under penalty of perjury all the pertinent information the government needs to determine you are a legal citizen, have the proper legal status, and to verify your identity. (Felons, who may be legal citizens, cannot vote either.) They record your name, SSN (Social Security Number), your address, phone number, and status for voting. Then they assign you a precinct and location to go to vote. If you prefer, you can request an absentee ballot that is sent to your home address with your name on it. You vote at home, sign and seal the ballot, and send it back. If you go to the polls your name is on a list. They ask you your name and then cross it off the list when you enter the ballot box. You vote, sign the ballot, and slide it into a slotted black box that is latter counted.
Republicans want to enforce a policy where people having to show an ID when they appear at the voting site simply to block the ability of many registered voters from voting. You don't need an ID for absentee voting; and should never need your ID for anything other than registering to vote. Anything else is election fraud and voter suppression.
As far as illegals are concerned, Kend, please. You have a passport and they don't. If you can't understand the difference of that argument I can't help you.
As I said before, Boston proves they aren't targeting the right people!
As usual, both choices are correct, so we need a 3rd choice on these such as "all of the above" or "both are true".
Virtually every municipality in the USA encourages Snitching on individuals....family, friends or neighbors... who are suspects or perpetrators in some crimes or other...tire slashing, selling pot, or whatnot.
But, those same officials will drop an Alp on your house if you dare snitch on corporate or government crimes, lies, or misdeeds.
Some snitching good, some bad.
How the hell, with only 300 intercepts, did they stop 50 attacks? 300, reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally?
A $3+ billion building in Utah and only 300 intercepts? What is that, $10,000,000 per? I smell a rat!!!
NSA = New Stasi of America!!!
howardb4 ~ You took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you!
This hearing is BS. It doesn't matter whether or not Americans communications are targeted or read. What matters is that they have been confiscated without probable cause or warrants. The fourth amendment states:
Blanket seizure of all communications is by definition "unreasonable searches and seizures." No Warrants, no "probable cause," no support by Oath or affirmation, and no description of the place, person or thing to be seized. Just blanket seizure and a lot of BS. This hearing is a sham.
Why don't they publish these 50 potential terrorist attacks with itemized explanations as to how this information could never have been achieved constitutionally. Security? BS!! They lie from their very first statement which implied that 911 happened because of insufficient security. We all know that Bush, Cheney, and Rice had warning given to them well in advance and did nothing to stop the 911 attack. I haven't heard such pure BS since the Warren Commision. Give me a break!
Why would anyone believe anything any government employee says on this--including Obama?
Question. Does what the NSA did and are doing break any LAWS? I can't seem to find any definitive answer to that question. Their history, along with the rest of the federal government's history is one of secrecy, deception, fabrication, falsification and murder. That along with all the constitutional violations that have been committed by them in the past ten years or so, makes them criminals of the highest order. How anyone, who is able to form even the most elementary of thoughts, can believe anything they utter is mind boggling.
The sad fact is, that many millions of Americans will believe almost any lie their elected representatives and appointed agencies put in front of them. That is where the problem really is. An electorate that has allowed themselves for so many decades to be manipulated, that they know no other way.
This is a sad and quite wretched country.
Sorry but I have to finish from yesterday.
DAnne M, I can open a bank account, get a drivers license, etc buy showing my Canadian passport in the US. How do you think people who are transfered there live there daily life. Thats why I don't understand how a person should be able to vote with a drivers license. It seems I am missing something.
Note: They were only testifying about the two publicly known programs. They are bound by law not to disclose any other secret programs. If those programs involve listening to our phone calls, they are prohibited from revealing it to the American people. In other words, there assurances are worthless.
Kend ~ Obviously you seem to think that anyone can get a driver's license; and, anyone with a driver's license can walk into a voting place and say, "I want to vote, give me a ballot." No! That doesn't work. It's far more involved than that. It is not that simple to get a drivers license. You have to show legal documentation. Even with a drivers license you have to register to vote. You have to provide accurate information in that process and follow the instructions. Your information will be verified; and, if you falsify anything you go to jail. Why would any illegal go out of their way, risk jail, just to have a slight impact on any election. The vast majority of illegals just want to honestly earn as much cash as they can to send it home to help their families live better lives. Most illegals want to draw as little attention to themselves as possible. Please stop listening to propaganda from poorly informed and dishonestly motivated sources.
Kend ~ Are you comparing yourself to an illegal immigrant? Then I assume you snuck over the US Canadian border without a passport? If you come here legally you can get everything you mentioned quite easily. However, if you are not a citizen you are not entitled to vote and it will say so on all your documentation. If you have no documentation you cannot get a bank account, write checks, or cash checks. Everything has to be done in cash. Now there are exceptions. You can get falsified documents or genuine documents if you know someone in the DMV for example. None of these are legal and all can be verified quite simply. The penalty for carrying falsified documents is worse than being an illegal. That is why most illegals do it the hard way. Checks can be cashed without ID's at check cashing establishments for a huge fee. The cash is then usually wired out of the country to be deposited in the illegals hometown abroad.
Are you trying to tell me you opened a bank account without any documentation? You bought a house and got a drivers license without any kind of documentation? Wow! No wonder Arizona has so many problems. The state government must be run by a bunch of monkeys with their heads up their a$$. Here in California we have to show a valid SSN and a valid birth certificate in order to obtain a drivers license as well as pass an eye, written, and driving test. A friend of mine who is not a citizen but is here legally got a drivers license but had to show all the same documentation as well as their green card. The fact that they cannot vote is stated on the license. In addition, we are all required to register to vote. That registration is verified and recorded. We are sent registration cards and ballots in the mail to our recorded address. We are all assigned a voting place that is sent a copy of all the registered voters and their information prior to voting. We are only allowed to vote at our pre selected location, or by return mail. When we show up to vote we show our legal ID and they match that ID to the information on the recorded registration. We use the ballot sent in the mail that has a serial number which matches our name. Even so, we have to sign the ballot as well for it to be counted. The signature, address, name, SSN, and ballot serial number all have to match up. If the name and address don't match the registered information we can't vote. It's that simple and it's already idiot proof.
The CIA has always used front companyies to do business, why not the NSA. It's plausable deniablity.
Did the wiretap info on the associated press reporters come thru PRISM?
KEND, Like all irrational NeoConservativeNazi's there is no way for anyone to explain to you "what the BIG deal is"...You're just too greedy to get it!
And yes I do like the philosophy of Socialism, as well as Democracy, Communism, and Anarcism...Its just unfortunate that in a capitalistic system"most" of society is to ignorant to understand how these systems are truely suppose to opperate, and the bennefits they can offer when not abused. Most people describe Communism to that of the Stalin era of Russia; which was more a Totalitarian oligarc dictatorship (Hmmm sound framiliar???)...Which has NOTHING to do with what Marx and Engles wrote and spoke about.
Sadly enough "Americanism" has taken over, and capitalized on creating a culture of false securities and tawdry commercialized values; abuseing Capitalism to the point of ruin; proving that without stricked well enforced regulations capitalism creates poverty and class warfare.
I could care less if "you" were allowed to vote here...Your no brighter than those that voted for Romney or Obama!
Cheers