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If us conservatives reject government health care because of the traditional arguments - bloated administration, diminished choices, fraud and corruption, etc. - than what has the capitalist version brought us? As long as the government doesn't legislate private enterprise to restrict it's competition, and doesn't become infested with Big-Brother mandates, then this conservative is ready to capitulate on single-payer medicare for all.... I can't imagine it getting worse.
@Michael:
Right now, we have representation without payment of taxation . . . for corporations.
It is time sound the alarm about a growing number of Americans who are fed up with taxation without representation. I am not talking about the under informed or misinformed tea-baggers, I am talking about a true movement whose time has come. Our politicians have for decades now screamed foul whenever the raising of taxes is mentioned. Americans have been indoctrinated that new taxes are bad and feel comfortable when their elected officials promise not to raise them. We are finally fed up with the hidden taxes our government levies on us through their legislation. From the Enron Loophole to the banking deregulation we have seen the cost of everything from energy to credit skyrocket. These hidden taxes do not benefit us nor are they beneficial to our general economy and national deficit. These hidden taxes benefit the big corporations that have taken tight control over our government.
One of the worst offenders is our health insurance industry. Their control over our government, our will, and our majority desires has become blatantly evident during this debate. If Congress actually passes a Bill without proper controls, regulations, and/or competition while including a mandate I am afraid it will be a final straw for millions of us. It could be the first bill passed that millions of Americans will actively reject as a product of obvious taxation without representation. The rejection of such an entity is a very dangerous and slippery slope for a country we love and just want to see restored to the true Democracy it once was.
Thom,
The letter you're reading from "Jane" about her healthcare increases shows very clearly why people 55 and older could never retire early. Our "wealth" has been stolen from us in a hundred different ways, from insurance premium increases, to loss of value in homes, to outrageous increases in interest rates on credit cards, etc.
Who has MONEY? Oh, yes --- the corporate criminals. Never mind...
thebinxster,
Re: "the public needs to identify the real man behind the curtain: obama."
Yes, the conversation should be all about Obama.
mstaggerlee,
okay, i'll do it.
you are hopelessly naive.
look at the facts. look at what obama has done.
ignore what he has said.
it could not be more clear.
obama is saying this:
who are you going to believe?
me, or your lying eyes?
i believe my lying eyes.
DDay,
"@ Quark….
Re: A good plot….
Huh?"
It makes it more interesting.
Call me naive. Call me a cockeyed optimist. Say what you will, but I simply do not (yet) believe that the Health Care bill now coming out of the Senate is exactly what Obama has wanted all along, as it has been characterized by some folks here.
The reason that the Clinton Health Care debacle was eventually scuttled was that the bill was crafted mainly in the executive branch, and foisted upon Congress as a fait accompli. Thus, it was necessary to allow Congress, collectively, to craft the bill this time around. Also, remember that whatever comes out of the Senate must still be reconciled with the House bill.
So, it ain't over till it's over, and I still harbor some hope that a bill that will actually help the American people more than the insurance lobbyists.
Yeah, the loosing side is warning us that doing the right and righteous thing will get us screwed into the dirt in 2010. Dan Gainor, please, hurry up about fading into obscurity where history awaits your utter diminishment.
Thom, how do you do it? Debate these knuckle draggers? They all got the memo about "they're trying to cram this down our throats". Every last damn one of them have to say that.
Hey! Today is Boston Tea Party!! You know what THAT means!
Dan Gainor remains human dreck and a waste of flesh.
President Obama remains a wishy-washy, mediocre, just-right-of-center, pro-corporatist.
I know that ‘Progressive’ oriented folk LOVE to gnash their teeth and wring their hands and whine that they can’t figure out what Obama is doing BUT . . .Apply the above framework . . . and, magically, EVERYTHING falls into place perfectly every-farging-time.
When the British surrendered at Yorktown, their band played a tune called "The World Upside-Down". Right now the Republicans are slowing down Senate debate by insisting on reading Bernie Saunders 767 page bill for Single Payer. G.O.P. head Michael Steele is on MSNBC pushing the idea that this idea is should be part of the debate. Senator Jay Rockefeller says Howard Dean is wrong and his ideas are irresponsible. And so it goes.
good morning from camp luna linda --
who paid for all those C-SPAN ads that i have heard/seen lately?
the ads invites observers of the healthcare debate --
if you go to C-SPAN by TV you will hear/see the TEAPARTY organizer --
DALE ROBERTSON??
the SANDERS AMENDMENT is on C-SPAN "2" --
out of the blue DIRECT TV just gave this camp FREE C-SPAN (1) --
DIRECT TV has given me DALE ROBERTSON for FREE --
AGAIN -- who paid for those C-SPAN.ORG
thank-you for your consideration --
GRATEFULLY EVERYTHING CHANGES --
with so many options -- mm
B.T.W My vote is neither Checkers nor Chess. I think it may be Three Card Monty.
I hope not.
an idle thought...
remember how supposedly crucial it was for obama to get at least one republican on board so that he could claim a bipartisan bill?
remember how important it was to get olympia snowe onboard for that purpose?
ahhh....funny, how all of a sudden all that talk of needing snowe onboard has stopped. not one mention of how important a "bipartisan" bill is, now that crunch time has come.
gee, i wonder why it's not so important anymore?
could it be because of the fact that other senators - lieberman, eg - have stepped up and provided the cover that snowe was providing?
and it makes that supposedly crucial element of "bipartisanship" not so important, after all...
...well, it wasn't censorship...it didn't come out, and then told me I'd already said that...
Clinton destroyed the safety-net that we could really use right now.
Presidents have the obligation to VETO in defense of the nation and the Constitution.
Before people completely trash the disappointing Senate healthcare reform bill, they really should read Nate Silver's "Why Progressives are Batshit Crazy to Oppose the Senate Bill," at www.fivethirtyeight.com
(http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-craz...)
I first came to this site late last summer trying to get Thom to answer the question he posed...Checkers or Chess? Thom has avoided answering this ever since. Given what was just said about Rahm getting exactly what Barack wanted....does that indicate an answer is forth-coming? Inquiring minds still want to know. Thom?
quark,
absolutely. but voters need to understand exactly what he is doing and stop wasting time and energy going after people like baucus and lieberman, who are simply performing the function obama wants them to perform.
obama's calculation is that most voters will continue to be easily distracted by a never ending stream of convenient boogeymen.
and let's face it: is there anyone easier to hate than holy joe? he's perfect for the role. and he obviously relishes playing his role.
no, the public needs to identify the real man behind the curtain: obama.
Dang - Here I bothered to type in a quote by Robert McNamara which referenced the 10/21/67 protest at the Pentagon:
"The front ranks indeed included many troublemakers, who used every devise to provoke the troops to violence. Young women rubbed their breasts against soldiers standing at attention with rifles at their sides and even unzipped their flies; the soldiers did not move."
Then I asked: "could such a conciousness recognize a peace feeler from Hanoi?"
I was an Obama supporter, and over the last few months, I've become increasingly disappointed with his promise of "change." I don't want to give up hope, maybe we are expecting too much too fast.
@ Quark....
Re: A good plot....
Huh?