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Thom was cranky on Friday and he lost his temper a little against people who criticized him for feeling betrayed by Obama over Afghanistan.
I wonder if he was thinking of me! I criticized him this week on the live blog.
Unfortunately Thom conflate two points, confusing the issue.
I criticized Thom and many of you for acting BETRAYED by Obama, even though he clearly promised this, as a candidate.
The other is your opposition to Obama. Thom said that people like me where ordering him to salute Obama and follow.
These are two very different issues.
Here's all I'm saying: if you voted for Afghanistan, you did so knowing that Obama was going to engage there, rather than withdrawal.
Thom's argument, "Yes he said he was going to do that, but I didn't believe him since he was running for office" is really unfair to Obama. (I paraphrase, of course.)
Also, Thom accused me (or people like me) of being "big party Democrats."
Here's my story: I'm a pacifist, myself, and opposed the initial invasion of Afghanistan. I wrote a letter to a national magazine stating so just a couple days after 911. Basically, I was arguing for a law-and-order approach to bin Laden, not war.
I took A WHOLE LOT OF CRAP, including being called pro-911 for that position. Worse, I think some of those people where Dems. That was a very lonely position back then.
Today, I still don't support the war in Afghanistan. What a mess.
BUT I don't feel betrayed by Obama! He told us he was going to do this. I guess I just took him seriously, unlike Thom who thought his promise was just empty campaign rhetoric. Obama's a better man than that.
The fact is that there is no written or spoken evidence that Mussolini ever likened fascism to “corporatism." -Mark -
Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
Benito Mussolini
I wouldn’t put too much stock in the Taliban’s complaints; they were surely well aware of the nature of Bin Laden’s activities all along. -Mark-
Taliban officials are furious at Osama bin Laden's attacks against the United States, because he had given a written pledge, referred to by Mullah Omar in a June 2001 interview with conservative journalist Arnaud de Borchgrave, not to attack any other country from his Afghan base. -
from Pentagon's War Pitch Belied by Taliban-Qaeda Conflict
by Gareth Porter http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/05
Didn't hear mention that the Taliban would be championed today IF they had said 'yes' to the oilmen.
In case someone missed it, a visit to the Yesteryear of Corruption where the sociopaths practiced their wheeling and dealing with the Taliban. Clearly the only reason the Oligarchs won't tolerate the Taliban noe is the Taliban's resistance to turning their country over for development by Western mining/drilling Corporations. Raping women, no problem. Refusing the pipeline, big problem. Those who won't let the Transnationals rape your country, the Transnationals will make sure those people are hunted down.
Anyway, jump into the WayBack Machine to the time when the Taliban were Texas tourists, gee whiz!--
http://www.counterpunch.org/tomenron.html
[excerpt]
A Creeping Collapse in Credibility at the White House:
From ENRON Entanglements to UNOCAL Bringing the Taliban to Texas and Controlling Afghanistan
By Tom Turnipseed
The Bush Administration's entanglement with ENRON is beginning to unravel as it finally admits that Enron executives entered the White House six times last year to secretly plan the Administration's energy policy with Vice-President Cheney before the collapse of the Texas-based energy giant. Meanwhile, even more trouble for our former-Texas-oil-man-turned-President is brewing with reports that unveil UNOCAL, another big energy company, for being in bed with the Taliban, along with the U.S. government in a major, continuing effort to construct pipelines through Afghanistan from the petroleum-rich Caspian Basin in Central Asia. Beneath their burkas, UNOCAL is being exposed for giving the five star treatment to Taliban Mullahs in the Lone Star State in 1997. The "evil-ones" were also invited to meet with U.S. government officials in Washington, D.C.
According to a December 17, 1997 article in the British paper, The Telegraph, headlined, "Oil barons court Taliban in Texas," the Taliban was about to sign a "£2 billion contract with an American oil company to build a pipeline across the war-torn country. ... The Islamic warriors appear to have been persuaded to close the deal, not through delicate negotiation but by old-fashioned Texan hospitality. ... Dressed in traditional salwar khameez,Afghan waistcoats and loose, black turbans, the high-ranking delegation was given VIP treatment during the four-day stay."
At the same time, U.S. government documents reveal that the Taliban were harboring Osama bin Laden as their "guest" since June 1996. By then, bin Laden had: been expelled by Sudan in early 1996 in response to US insistence and the threat of UN sanctions; publicly declared war against the U.S. on or about August 23, 1996; pronounced the bombings in Riyadh and at Khobar in Saudi Arabia killing 19 US servicemen as 'praiseworthy terrorism', promising that other attacks would follow in November 1996 and further admitted carrying out attacks on U.S. military personnel in Somalia in 1993 and Yemen in 1992, declaring that "we used to hunt them down in Mogadishu"; stated in an interview broadcast in February 1997 that "if someone can kill an American soldier, it is better than wasting time on other matters." Evidence was also developing which linked bin Laden to: the 1995 bombing of a U.S. military barracks in Riyadh which killed five; Ramzi Yuosef, who led the 1993 World Trade Center attacks; and a 1994 assassination plot against President Clinton in the Philippines.
Back in Houston, the Taliban was learning how the "other half lives," and according to The Telegraph, "stayed in a five-star hotel and were chauffeured in a company minibus." The Taliban representatives "...were amazed by the luxurious homes of Texan oil barons. Invited to dinner at the palatial home of Martin Miller, a vice-president of Unocal, they marveled at his swimming pool, views of the golf course and six bathrooms." Mr. Miller, said he hoped that UNOCAL had clinched the deal.
Dick Cheney was then CEO of Haliburton Corporation, a pipeline services vendor based in Texas. Gushed Cheney in 1998, "I can't think of a time when we've had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian. It's almost as if the opportunities have arisen overnight. The good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas only where there are democratically elected regimes friendly to the United States. Occasionally we have to operate in places where, all things considered, one would not normally choose to go. But we go where the business is." Would Cheney bargain with the harborers of U.S. troop killers if that's where the business was?
The Telegraph reported that Unocal had promised to start building the pipeline and paying the Taliban immediately, with the added inducements and a donation of £500,000 to the University of Nebraska for courses in Afghanistan to train 400 teachers, electricians, carpenters and pipefitters.
The Telegraph also reported, "The US government, which in the past has branded the Taliban's policies against women and children "despicable", appears anxious to please the fundamentalists to clinch the lucrative pipeline contract." In a paper prepared by Neamatollah Nojumi, at the Tufts University Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Nojumi wrote in August 1997 that Madeline Albright sat in a "full-dress CIA briefing" on the Caspian region. CIA agents then accompanied "some well-trained petroleum engineers" to the region. Albright concluded that shaping the region's policies was "one of the most exciting things that we can do."
It's also exciting to the Bush Administration. According to the authors of Bin Laden, the Hidden Truth, one of the FBI's leading counter terrorism agents, John O'Neill, resigned last year in protest over the Bush Administration's alleged obstruction of his investigation into bin Laden. (A similar complaint has been filed on behalf of another unidentified FBI Agent by the conservative Judicial Watch public interest group.) Supposedly the Bush Administration had been meeting since January 2001 with the Taliban, and was also reluctant to offend Saudi Arabians who O'Neill had linked to bin Laden. Mr. O'Neill, after leaving the FBI, assumed the position of security director at the World Trade Center, where he was killed in the 911 attacks.
As America's New War now begins focusing on other "rogue nations," UNOCAL's stars have magically aligned. About two months after the Houston parties, UNOCAL executive John Maresca addressed the House Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific and urged support for establishment of an investor-friendly climate in Afghanistan, "... we have made it clear that construction of our proposed pipeline cannot begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders and our company." Meaning that UNOCAL's ability to construct the Afghan pipeline was a cause worthy of U.S. taxpayer dollars.
Maresca's prayers have been answered with the Taliban's replacement. As reported in Le Monde, the new Afghan government's head, Hamid Karzai, formerly served as a UNOCAL consultant. Only nine days after Karzai's ascension, President Bush nominated another UNOCAL consultant and former Taliban defender, Zalmay Khalilzad, as his special envoy to Afghanistan.
When UNOCAL makes big bucks from the pipeline they should donate 50% of all pretax profits to the 911 Fund. And they should also cut a very special check to the widow of FBI Agent O'Neill.
Tom Turnipseed is a civil rights lawyer in South Carolina. Visit Tom's website at www.turnipseed.net
[end excerpt]
Tom, I very concerned that the majority of Americans still don't know what the Bush-Cheney nomination, election and administration was really all about from the get go, and therefore are missing what Palin's nomination was all about, and what the promotion of her now is all about. The Bush administration was all about enacting the "Wise Use Agenda", which anyone can google, but basically calls for opening all public lands to oil, gas, coal, mining, logging, etc. and rolling back environmental protections they see as standing in the way of free enterprise, i.e. the Endangered Species Act.. It started with the Sagebrush Rebellion, a western state backlash to the progress of the environmental movement and conservation in the '70s. Reagan was a Sagebrush Rebel. He nominated James Watt. Watt's understudy was Gayle Norton. Ron Arnold wrote a flattering book about Watt in '81, and then authored the "Wise Use Agenda" in '88. The 2000 election was all about keeping Al Gore, a known environmentalist promising to address global warming and other environmental problems from winning. That's why campaign contributions from extractive and polluting industries rose 350% overall, and some by up to 582%. Bush's first appointment was Gayle Norton. He first act, on Inauguration Day, was to suspend all Clinton's last minute executive orders regarding the environment. We always here that they missed many warning signs leading up to 9-11. That's because they were so obsessed with enacting the "wise use agenda". But they blew it and it cost them the Congress in '06 and the WH didn't look good for '08. Gas prices were driven up in part to influence the election. Bush meets secretly with McCain in May when his campaign finances are dwindling. Less than a month later, big Oil execs hold fundraisers for McCain in Texas. Then comes Palin, seemingly out of nowhere. I've always believe she was picked for McCain, not by him. That would explain a lot of the animosity between McCain's staff and her. What her promotion is all about is regaining the WH to get the "wise use agenda" back on track, and stall action on global warming another four or eight or more years. Too many write her off as a ditz but they shouldn't underestimate the ability of the people behind this latest Manchurian Candidate to sell her to the American public. After all, they sold half the country on Bush, not just once, but twice. And the woman has a huge ego and likes to be a star, and they're using that against her by inflating her sense of importance to herself, and will later make her a puppet, in many ways like Bush. Someone needs to bring this out in the open, what the real hidden agenda is, and what it could mean for America and the planet if they pull it off. And don't think banks not lending is an accident. The less they do, the more it stalls the job recovery, and the more it hurts Dems in '10, and Obama in '12, not to mention any chance for the green revolution he's called for.
I got a bit annoyed with the guy calling about the new healthcare proposals saying that they are causing frequently hospitalized people to receive less coverage. Just so you know, that already happens in medicare and they do it because they don't want the hospitals kicking people out when they are still sick just to come back a week later. They don't pay for the second time around because its often clear the hospital did a crappy job. And by the way, the hospital eats the unpaid balance on that bill, not the patient.
Fool me once!!!
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Trickle-up-economics-Fool-by-Paul-Craig...
A tragic end!!! I am terribly disappointed in what was to be a promising presidency.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-Tragic-End-to-A-Promisin-by-William-R...
Little change and less hope!
http://www.opednews.com/articles/So-Far-President-Obama-Off-by-John-F-Mi...
I have been slowly losing the piss and vinegar that have kept me motivated to comment and post. I am emotionally drained.
http://www.creators.com/opinion/jim-hightower/obama-s-war.html
DDay,
You still have hope. That is worth everything.
Quark,
How right you are! It is....after all....all about me. On the other hand, taking what you say to it's logical conclusion perhaps explains why I sometimes see so little good in others? Just kidding Looking in the mirror most likely makes me more forgiving of other's shortcomings. We all need compassion. Thanks for Bob & Ray I looooove them. :-)
Great Lakes Paper Clip Company --- Bob and Ray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmahLN6_Ozw&feature=related
(I have always thought this made a great statement regarding economic philosophy.)
DDay,
You made my day. However, I have always felt that you see in others what is contained within yourself. (Re: "You are the best.")
DDay,
You echo my feelings on this gloomy Friday afternoon. If I can find an amusing piece of escapism, I will post it!
I miss you, too, B Roll.
Thank you QuarK!
Have a great weekend. You are the best.
Weird to hear that 'Taliban were FINANCING' Al-Qaeda! Taliban are tribal Afghans who hardly have any wealth. The only thing that they did was to allow Al-Qaeda fighters to stay on (and do what they pleased within Afghanistan) after the defeat of the USSR.
It was actually Al-Qaeda sympathisers from the world over (specially middle east) with the help of ISI agents who were actually supporting and financing the Taliban movement which rose from the children of the Afghan refugees living in the tribal areas in Pakistan's north-west, and who studied in the madarasas (the only school available there) which were run by foreign Afghan Mujahideen (the precursor of Al-Qaeda).
Wow! I guess the testosterone level wasn't high enough for Bob the Caller!
Hey Quark!
Ditto on your sobering comments. I already blew my discretionary income on a geo-thermal heating system recently. I wish Thom had asked Max to talk about Paris a little bit before ending his conversation. I could use some happy escapism on a gloomy Friday afternoon. Peace to all you smart and concerned patriots here. I miss you B Roll. Thanx Thom & Louise and crew.
GOP Takes on Franken
DDay,
Your wish is my command :) :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olb...
FYI...
Thom has discussed Sen. Al Franken's bill to prevent U.S. corporations from covering up rape and other crimes while acting as contractors in Iraq & Afghanistan. There was an interesting story last evening about how the Republican Senators who voted against this bill are angry and crying foul. Sen Corncob from Texas and others are claiming that Al violated some unwritten rule in the Senate where apparently you don't propose bills which may embarrass fellow Senators if they vote stupidly. Hilarious...Perhaps Quark can include a link? I'm pretty sure it was on MSNBC. Al should apparently warn them to read those bills which may blow up in their faces. Thank the Republicans for Rape group for giving this thing legs. Smart politicos on the left should take note. This could work again...and again.
From the CNN archives:
Bush rejects Taliban offer of bin Laden
Oct 7, 2001
the people speak will air on the history channel on dec13 at 8pm i feel this is a great opportunity to get together with fiends and family to celebrate the true meaning of democracy. i am considering this event as the Superbowl of democracy to celebrate with my friends and family.
Petition to Reid to Use Reconciliation
'Just received this email from Firedoglake.com:
Word on the Hill is that Harry Reid is looking at trigger, which is designed to kill the public option.
We're ramping up against Reid and need you on board. More than 33,000 people have told Reid to use reconciliation for a majority vote on the public option. Can you join us?
Click here to sign our petition to Harry Reid:
http://action.firedoglake.com/reconciliation
Well, that was an extremely sobering conversation with Max Keiser. What are those of us supposed to do who are just making ends meet and can't invest in gold? 'Sounds like alot more of us will be homeless before this is over...
Frankly, I wish Thom wouldn't imply that people like Ed Schultz are "stupid" for having a different take on the motivations of Obama's Afghan adventure; it doesn't befit him. Besides, I know how I regarded Thom's implicit support of the racist garbage he was being told at that so-called immigration forum in D.C., but one word I wouldn't have used was "stupid."